V's Tourney R1: Days of Future Past(JB vs Roddy vs Beat)

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Storm Calling

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#51  Edited By Storm Calling

@roddy010: Outstanding work Roddy. I think you proved quite well that despite the fact that certain characters have access to an assortment of powers, it doesn't mean they are on the same caliber as characters that are more prominent in that area for that specific powers. Same Power=/=Equal Power because there are degrees of power levels that relate to the same power, especially in relation to telepathy. Age=/=More Powerful because power and skill can outdo wisdom and experience if it's strong and proficient enough(the reverses holds true as well). Old magic vs New Magic really isn't a argument to me. It's either powerful enough to go toe to toe with each other or it isn't. It being older changes nothing.

More has to be applied in these scenarios for me and I think Roddy proved his side much better. Clairvoyance=/=instant win because there's no proof that the prediction will be in the favor of the bearer. Yes, there are ways to prep for the battle but that still doesn't mean it'll be enough unless the prediction was in fact in their favor. In this case, we don't know, and the thing to remember here is the fact that they'd have to fight regardless of whether or not they've determined how the battle might've played out. Knowing that you're getting your butt kicked tomorrow, does little to change the fact that it's going to happen. You can maybe try to alter the outcome but you still have to face it regardless.

Roddy's team has too many counter measures against their illusions, mind control, defenses and stealth attacks. Keeping in mind, that everyone is mindlinked, I don't think they will have any problem finding out about the illusions because several of them will be seeing something completely different than the other. I think this fight will lead to a direct confrontation after all else is said and done, and Roddy's team appears to be much more impressive for one of those.

Green team gets my vote.

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Roddy010

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beatboks1

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@storm_calling: I have a question but will wait till voting concluded

Thanks for participating

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J_MutantComando76

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@roddy010: I don't really get into Battles much but did read through this thread because I thought the title sounded interesting. Nice set up for the debate as well. I think you had a very solid and more convincing argument. Also impressive use of Will. I forgot about this show and didn't know they did a comic.

My vote goes to the green team.

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Malachi_Munroe

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Green Team gets my vote

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Roddy010

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beatboks1

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@veitha In the interests of moving this along (and since we're tied with no votes for almost 6 days. I'll bow out and allow Roddie to move on.

@roddy010: Congrats, best of luck next round

@storm_calling:

Since i'm bowing out I'll as my question.

Roddy's team has too many counter measures against their illusions

What "counter measures"?? If a powerful telepath can see through a telepathic deception but still see an illusion because they are both magically and holographically made to perceive it, then they haven't broken it. Similarly if one has the power to see through mystic illusions but is still deceived by the telepathic or holographic variety then they are also still deceived. again anyone who can see through the light show but is made to perceive it simply because their mind tells them to because both magic and TP are making them, then they are still deceived. This was the point I repeated throughout the thread. NO ONE character possessed the ability to see through all three types of illusions. Being TP linked does absolutely nothing to help a team see through illusions if EVERY single member still sees them because one of the three types still affects their mind.

I even provided canon proof in the scan of Ultra Humanite being fooled by Holt's holograms to illustrate. Ultra was/is a powerful enough TPer that he was able to mentally control several heroes (three of whom were known for TP resistance) across dimensions ( heroes from earth 2 being controlled from Limbo) and across time ( four decades into the future). Not to mention the fact that he matched Brainwave Snr in TP battle and BW Snr TP controlled the Spectre. In the story in question Ultra also possessed the magic powers of the Thunderbolt which meant having reality warping power.

I think you proved quite well that despite the fact that certain characters have access to an assortment of powers, it doesn't mean they are on the same caliber as characters that are more prominent in that area for that specific powers

This one also confused me. I assume your referring to Jean TP beating Arion. At no point has Jean shown the ability (without Pheonix and a mid level tourney wouldn't allow that) to siphon the psionic energy of an entire culture. Literally bleeding millions of minds dry of energy. Yet I showed a feat of Arion resisting that being done to him by JUST such a being. I never stated he could bet her in a psionic battle or that he would TP assault her. Only that he had prove she couldn't do the same to him. He had been Psionically attacked by TPers vastly more powerful than a non pheonix Jean without success.

Clairvoyance=/=instant win because there's no proof that the prediction will be in the favor of the bearer

My argument for Clairvoyance had absolutely nothing to do with obtaining a win, but denying my opponent one. If I know where every strike my opponent is going to make and every member of my team has instant teleportation (granted by prep), instant intangibility at a thought (also by prep). The i can simply be unable to strike at any point an attack on my team is made. It doesn't matter how powerful the attack is, if it can't hit me it can't stop me. pus the fact that such Clairvoyance simply means i can always be where I know my adversary is not, i can achieve what I set out to do without even engaging him (which was the purpose of the illusions to begin with)

Just interested in how you see it that way.

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Storm Calling

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#58  Edited By Storm Calling

@beatboks1: You had a pretty solid team but I felt you ultimately put too much effort into having characters on your team with too many powers as opposed to picking a team that is proficient in a "particular" power. Arion weather manipulation for example, I saw nothing that convinced me it was on par with Biosynth's. You just posted some scans of him throwing lightning bolts and boulders. I'm not going to drag this into an extended debate and I don't plan to change your opinion on the matter. I read both sides and felt Roddy's team had a stronger offense and counters.

1. You don't seem to understand how mindlinking works. If characters are "mind linked" then they are perceiving and communicating with everyone on the team. This means that it will only take one to see through the illusion before they all will. Roddy's team has three telepaths(very powerful and skilled) mindlinking everyone, which includes Biosynthe. It doesn't matter what sort of illusions you've placed and reinforced for your team, several characters on Roddy's team will be perceiving something else entirely, and they will know something's up. Not to mention I don't think the magical ones will be effective considering the heart of Kandrakar(which you claimed wouldn't work because your team's magic was older, and Roddy claimed that it wasn't).

So with the magical illusions no longer being effective(in my opinion), I don't see Biosynthe and three very skilled telepaths having an issue seeing through a telepathic and holographic illusion. As for Ultra Humanite, you can now see why I wouldn't consider this a proper example for a counter against this argument. Ultra Humanite is one mind, and does not have the same amount of counter measures as Roddy's team does.

2. Actually, I've seen Xavier do this before(siphon the psionic energy of an entire culture) and Jean is above him in overall raw power and potential. I'm not certain if Roddy provided that to you, but I'm also quite knowledgeable when it comes to telepaths. I automatically assumed it wasn't something that was beyond the range of Jean's powers(even without PF).

3.

The i can simply be unable to strike at any point an attack on my team is made. It doesn't matter how powerful the attack is, if it can't hit me it can't stop me.

With clairvoyance, you're making the assumption that it can be avoided. Which stems back to why I said clairvoyance shouldn't be automatically assumed to be a victory. There is knowing your opponent, and then there is fighting your opponent. Your team has to fight regardless of whether or not they lose this battle. So it cannot be counted completely against Roddy's team, even if it does in fact give yours some advantages.

It was a great debate overall and I felt you both brought your a-games to it.

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Veitha

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beatboks1

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#60  Edited By beatboks1

@beatboks1: You had a pretty solid team but I felt you ultimately put too much effort into having characters on your team with too many powers as opposed to picking a team that is proficient in a "particular" power. Arion weather manipulation for example, I saw nothing that convinced me it was on par with Biosynth's. You just posted some scans of him throwing lightning bolts and boulders. I'm not going to drag this into an extended debate and I don't plan to change your opinion on the matter. I read both sides and felt Roddy's team had a stronger offense and counters.

1. You don't seem to understand how mindlinking works. If characters are "mind linked" then they are perceiving and communicating with everyone on the team. This means that it will only take one to see through the illusion before they all will. Roddy's team has three telepaths(very powerful and skilled) mindlinking everyone, which includes Biosynthe. It doesn't matter what sort of illusions you've placed and reinforced for your team, several characters on Roddy's team will be perceiving something else entirely, and they will know something's up. Not to mention I don't think the magical ones will be effective considering the heart of Kandrakar(which you claimed wouldn't work because your team's magic was older, and Roddy claimed that it wasn't).

So with the magical illusions no longer being effective(in my opinion), I don't see Biosynthe and three very skilled telepaths having an issue seeing through a telepathic and holographic illusion. As for Ultra Humanite, you can now see why I wouldn't consider this a proper example for a counter against this argument. Ultra Humanite is one mind, and does not have the same amount of counter measures as Roddy's team does.

2. Actually, I've seen Xavier do this before(siphon the psionic energy of an entire culture) and Jean is above him in overall raw power and potential. I'm not certain if Roddy provided that to you, but I'm also quite knowledgeable when it comes to telepaths. I automatically assumed it wasn't something that was beyond the range of Jean's powers(even without PF).

3.

The i can simply be unable to strike at any point an attack on my team is made. It doesn't matter how powerful the attack is, if it can't hit me it can't stop me.

With clairvoyance, you're making the assumption that it can be avoided. Which stems back to why I said clairvoyance shouldn't be automatically assumed to be a victory. There is knowing your opponent, and then there is fighting your opponent. Your team has to fight regardless of whether or not they lose this battle. So it cannot be counted completely against Roddy's team, even if it does in fact give yours some advantages.

It was a great debate overall and I felt you both brought your a-games to it.

For the record, wasn't trying to change your vote. that is why I was waiting until voting was over and only asked after I forfeit. I was just seeking clarification.

Yes I do understand how mind linking works, the thing is the argument I gave which I obviously didn't make clear is that none of Roddy's team would see through the illusions so the mind link wouldn't help at all. Both magic and TP illusions alter the perspective of those who see them.

If i have the ability to see through a telepathically cast illusion that is also being cast by other means that I don't have the ability to see through(in this case holograms and magic) then I still see the illusion cast. I don't even break it telepathically because i've been magically made to perceive what I would have seen through via TP. The point I made in my debate which obviously wasn't clear, is that NONE of roddy's team would have seen through the illusions because no one had an ability to see through all three types (which they would have needed to be able to perceive the true nature of things.

If Will's heart of Klandikar can see through the magically created illusions but he's being telepathically made to not see that fact, then he doesn't see through it. If his Telepaths see through the TP illusions of my TPers (one of whom -Devil Slayer- has also used this to deceive Classic Doctor strange which Roddy's TPers have not done) but is still being made to magically perceive the cast illusion then they don't see through it. Same for Biosynth.

In post 22 I showed an example of the holographic illusions of Mr Terrific fooling a TPer above non phoenix Jean's (who's all that is allowed) level who also had vast magical and reality warping power at the time. He could see the very nature of reality and alter it yet was deceived by the holographic illusions and attacked them. He has vastly more experience with TP than Jean (having been a powerful TPer since 1942). In that same story Ultra had most of the DCU's most powerful TPers completely under his control a AND was mind controlling most of the heroes of earth v v

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He was mentally linked and controlling all these people and couldn't see through an illusion that was cast by the holograms of Terrific AND the magic of Faust. He was controlling Grodd, Jemm, Martian Manhunter, Hector Hammond, and more at the same time as mentally controlling heroes like Superman (with vision that would have easily seen through holograms), Green Lantern (who's ring would detect through them), Stargirl (her rod gives her complete control over the electromagnetic spectrum sure she would detect a hologram) and man many more. It still didn't allow him to breach an illusion cast in two ways with all that sensory capacity.

Just wanted to know what it was I left unclear. Thanks to clearing it up.

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Storm Calling

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#61  Edited By Storm Calling

@veitha: Thanks for clarifying about the vote, I assumed it was why you wanted to wait.

As for the rest of your post, I have only one thing to point out.

The point I made in my debate which obviously wasn't clear, is that NONE of roddy's team would have seen through the illusions because no one had an ability to see through all three types (which they would have needed to be able to perceive the true nature of things.

Roddy made it pretty clear that through Biosynth's energy sight(via mindlinking), they would be able to see through the holographic illusions as well(this would allow for her to see through a telepathic illusion also). The Heart of Kandrakar breaking an illusion isn't just limited to Will's person(at least, that's not how I interpreted it). The scans Roddy provided showed that it had removed the magical illusion entirely and allowed for everyone to see that it was.

So as far as I'm concerned, despite the fact that Will may still see a holographic or telepathic illusion after using the heart of kandrakar, which is debatable considering the mindlinking from the other telepaths may negate this, Biosynth and the three other telepaths would then only have to deal with the telepathic and holographic illusions after the magical one is negated.

So as you can see, this would allow for at least one of them to see through the illusion(Biosynth, who will sense no life within the illusions, and could may even discover this within the magical ones as well considering Storm has been able to sense Varnae's powerful dark magic(who is also an ancient Atlantean sorcerer)), which would then grant the entire team freedom of the illusion via mindlinking.

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Roddy010

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#62  Edited By Roddy010

@beatboks1: Sorry you bowed out man you gave one hell of a debate and thanks. I'll be sure to tag you in round 2 if you care to vote.

@veitha:Well round 2 here I come.

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