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Who would win in a battle, the dark lord of the wizarding world, Voldemort or the lord of the dark side, Darth Vader?
Random encounter
Movie/book Voldemort
Movie Vader
Both have full access to their sources of power (magic and the force) all weapons are already drawn (wand and lightsaber)
Fight is in Mordor
Battle is to incapacitation or death (who am I kidding, their going for the kill)
Who wins and why?
@goodguy24: sorry i forgot to put say why u think that character would win.
@goodguy24 said:
Vader
Please explain why.
All it takes is an "Avada Kedavra" and Darth Vader dies.
post by,
Master M0r0n
Vader could crush a mans heart in his chest or choke the life out of him before Voldemort even raises his wond,,not to mention you can dodge spells, which was dnd in the movies by simply moving behind something,,,Vader is fast enough to avoid them but it wouldn't be necessary since he could just choke him making it impossible to say the verbal component of the spell intended. Vader FTW
I don't know why people believe Voldemort's Avada Kedavra is doing him any good. Vader can fight faster than he can react and disarm him or immobilize him or slash him in half before he can do anything. Without Horcruxes, Voldemort dies instantly.
Voldemort, like any experienced wizard does not need to speak to cast spells, least of all his most used one. Voldemort would get his spell off regardless of what Vader does because it will take at least a second to take Voldemort down and that's more than enough time for an Avada Kedavra beam to reach Vader, which he has no way of defending against. I'm also fairly certain Voldemort, the most powerful dark wizard of all time, is well-versed in healing spells so whatever organ Vader decides to crush he'd simply regenerate. That's not saying Voldemort is immune, but Vader is dying in any case; it boils down to whether or not Voldemort can recuperate from the damage Vader does in the 0-1 seconds before he's fried.
@Hksaru said:
Voldemort, like any experienced wizard does not need to speak to cast spells, least of all his most used one. Voldemort would get his spell off regardless of what Vader does because it will take at least a second to take Voldemort down and that's more than enough time for an Avada Kedavra beam to reach Vader, which he has no way of defending against. I'm also fairly certain Voldemort, the most powerful dark wizard of all time, is well-versed in healing spells so whatever organ Vader decides to crush he'd simply regenerate. That's not saying Voldemort is immune, but Vader is dying in any case; it boils down to whether or not Voldemort can recuperate from the damage Vader does in the 0-1 seconds before he's fried.
What? Again, Voldemort cannot even react to Vader. Voldemort is just a Wizard with perhaps enhanced (for a human) reflexes and speed, but not nearly enough to even react to Vader. Vader can most certainly react to Voldemort, because he can see things moving at sub-light speeds in slow motion:
Obi-Wan was already making that exact move as Anakin spoke. But they were inverted to each other: breaking right shot him one way while Anakin whipped the other. The tri-fighters' cannons ripped space between them, tracking faster than their starfighters could slip. His onboard threat display chimed a warning: two of the droids had remote sensor locks on him. The others must have lit up his partner. "Anakin! Slip-jaws!"
"My thought exactly."
They blew past the tri-fighters, looping in evasive spirals. The droid ships wrenched themselves into pursuit maneuvers that would have killed any living pilot. The slip-jaws maneuver was named for the scissorlike mandibles of the Kashyyyk slash-spider. Droids closing rapidly on their tails, cannonfire stitching space on all sides, the two Jedi pulled their ships through perfectly mirrored rolls that sent them streaking head-on for each other from opposite ends of a vast Republic cruiser. For merely human pilots, this would be suicide. By the time you can see your partner's starfighter streaking toward you at a respectable fraction of lightspeed, it's already too late for your merely human reflexes to react.
But these particular pilots were far from merely human.
The Force nudged hands on control yokes and the Jedi starfighters twisted and flashed past each other belly-to-belly, close enough to scorch each other's paint.
--Taken from Revenge of the Sith
Oh, a sword... Against a Light Saber?
Forget the wand, Vader can just snatch it away with the Force.
Most spells don't take the form of a dodge able projectile and would have an instant effect much like a force choke. I just said Avada Kedavra because that's what everyone in here was discussing and I suppose it clouded my judgment to the reality of things: Voldemort wouldn't resort to the Avada Kedavra in the first place. The first thing he'd to is mess with his mind and last I checked Vader isn't an Occlumens so once again he'd be defenseless. Before they even caught sight of each other Vader would be completely disoriented and uncertain. In an instant Voldemort would know Vader. Who knows what he'd do with that, perhaps make himself appear to Vader as Obi-Wan, or Luke, or the Sith Lord himself.
I'm curious what forms of attacks Vader can land that would instantly neutralize or kill Voldemort that he allegedly could not react to, because I suspect at the first sign of unmitigatable physical danger Voldemort would apparate, dodging essentially anything, and giving him a vantage point. In a purely gladiatorial battle (not using the mind) Voldemort could instantly apparate behind Vader with his wand raised and Avada Kedavra him from point-blank range, if that's what the people in this thread want.
@Hksaru said:
Most spells don't take the form of a dodge able projectile and would have an instant effect much like a force choke. I just said Avada Kedavra because that's what everyone in here was discussing and I suppose it clouded my judgment to the reality of things: Voldemort wouldn't resort to the Avada Kedavra in the first place. The first thing he'd to is mess with his mind and last I checked Vader isn't an Occlumens so once again he'd be defenseless. Before they even caught sight of each other Vader would be completely disoriented and uncertain. In an instant Voldemort would know Vader. Who knows what he'd do with that, perhaps make himself appear to Vader as Obi-Wan, or Luke, or the Sith Lord himself.
I'm curious what forms of attacks Vader can land that would instantly neutralize or kill Voldemort that he allegedly could not react to, because I suspect at the first sign of unmitigatable physical danger Voldemort would apparate, dodging essentially anything, and giving him a vantage point. In a purely gladiatorial battle (not using the mind) Voldemort could instantly apparate behind Vader with his wand raised and Avada Kedavra him from point-blank range, if that's what the people in this thread want.
Actually, Voldemort spams Avada Kedavra. It would be more likely he simply did so if he really wanted to kill Vader and was truly enraged. Again, there is no such thing as an Occlumens in SW, but Vader's telepathy is sufficient. Before they even caught sight of each other, miles away, Vader would have all the information he needs to. I'd love to see how you think Voldemort can react or even see Vader before getting slain. He has no time to apparate or disapparate. Vader killed five out of eight Jedi that ambushed him on Kessel.
If Voldemort appeared behind Vader, Vader can sense it. Again, Vader's reaction exceeds Voldemort's by hundreds of times. Voldemort has only slightly enhanced (when compared to humans) speed and reaction, and Vader is more than capable of killing Voldemort prior to him even reacting or noticing.
@Hksaru said:
I think we can reach the agreement that it would primarily be a mental battle, no? I don't think I can even begin to comprehend a battle of telepaths.
No, because Voldemort cannot even react before being killed. He cannot even see Vader, let alone do anything. Vader stomps.
Vader takes this. Come on now think about it, Vader has so many ways to win and Voldemort so little. Hes stronger, faster, more battle experience, the force, and to top it off a friggin lightsaber.
@ShootingNova said:
@Hksaru said:
I think we can reach the agreement that it would primarily be a mental battle, no? I don't think I can even begin to comprehend a battle of telepaths.
No, because Voldemort cannot even react before being killed. He cannot even see Vader, let alone do anything. Vader stomps.
But then we go back to the point where Vader can't see Voldemort
Legilimency
he sees Sith Lord, not Voldemort
you're being ignorant
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Editting this post since I can only post five times a day (which is cooool)
@ShootingNova
"Why would Vader be incapable of seeing Voldemort?
I'm not being ignorant; you are. I've read the novels and seen Voldemort's feats (though it has been some time). I've seen all the movies too. From the way you make things out, you haven't read enough on the EU to argue for Vader.
Voldemort is incapable of even thinking, or even planning out a strategy (including thinking the usage of Legilmency) before being killed."
Because of Legilimency. In short, it makes them see and believe things at the whim of the invader. Unless they are well-versed in the specific counter-art of Occlumency.
From the way you make things out you think Vader would simply look at Voldemort and he would drop dead. I'm arguing that point. Vader uses "Death Stare," Voldemort uses "Inception;" "You're planning on killing your master, do you really want to do that, Anakin?"
It's what he does. People here think that in a battle Voldemort's instinctual first move would be raising his wand and casting Avada Kedavra, when it wouldn't be. He attacks people's minds, especially if they're defenseless, which Vader, unfortunately for your argument, is. Magic =/= the force
@Hksaru said:
@ShootingNova said:
@Hksaru said:
I think we can reach the agreement that it would primarily be a mental battle, no? I don't think I can even begin to comprehend a battle of telepaths.
No, because Voldemort cannot even react before being killed. He cannot even see Vader, let alone do anything. Vader stomps.
But then we go back to the point where Vader can't see Voldemort
Legilimency
he sees Sith Lord, not Voldemort
you're being ignorant
Why would Vader be incapable of seeing Voldemort?
I'm not being ignorant; you are. I've read the novels and seen Voldemort's feats (though it has been some time). I've seen all the movies too. From the way you make things out, you haven't read enough on the EU to argue for Vader.
Voldemort is incapable of even thinking, or even planning out a strategy (including thinking the usage of Legilmency) before being killed.
Just look at a list of each's feats/ accomplishments next to one another. For example Vader helped conquer a galaxy, Voldemort could not even take over Britain and died from accidental suicide (who does that).
@RingSlinger said:
Just look at a list of each's feats/ accomplishments next to one another. For example Vader helped conquer a galaxy, Voldemort could not even take over Britain and died from accidental suicide (who does that).
LOL. Though none of this has anything to do with in a battle.
Battles like these are thoroughly interesting to me, I love both Harry Potter and Star Wars very much. Voldermort is certainly very powerful, he is well seasoned in fighting other wizards. However, in this case I would back Lord Vader. Even if Voldemort managed to use Avada Kedavra, who's to say a lightsaber won't block it? After all, a lightsabers only limitations are very specific kinds of metal. Even then he still has the force to combat Voldermort in a variety of ways. He's far too fast and versatile for Voldermort in my opinion
@intothetempest said:
Battles like these are thoroughly interesting to me, I love both Harry Potter and Star Wars very much. Voldermort is certainly very powerful, he is well seasoned in fighting other wizards. However, in this case I would back Lord Vader. Even if Voldemort managed to use Avada Kedavra, who's to say a lightsaber won't block it? After all, a lightsabers only limitations are very specific kinds of metal. Even then he still has the force to combat Voldermort in a variety of ways. He's far too fast and versatile for Voldermort in my opinion
Exactly. Voldemort lacks the capability to even react to Vader before being slain. There is absolutely nothing he can do.
@ShootingNova said:
@RingSlinger said:
Just look at a list of each's feats/ accomplishments next to one another. For example Vader helped conquer a galaxy, Voldemort could not even take over Britain and died from accidental suicide (who does that).
LOL. Though none of this has anything to do with in a battle.
It does actually. Vader has actual in the field battle experience, real training, he knows how to end the fight most efficiently in a number of ways I already listed in a previous post. Whats Voldemorts tactics? Spam Avada Kedavra? Give me a break.
Imagine Kimbo Slice fighting Alistair Overeem, thats what this is essentially. More tools in the tool-belt and extensive knowledge on how to use them.
@RingSlinger said:
@ShootingNova said:
@RingSlinger said:
Just look at a list of each's feats/ accomplishments next to one another. For example Vader helped conquer a galaxy, Voldemort could not even take over Britain and died from accidental suicide (who does that).
LOL. Though none of this has anything to do with in a battle.
It does actually. Vader has actual in the field battle experience, real training, he knows how to end the fight most efficiently in a number of ways I already listed in a previous post. Whats Voldemorts tactics? Spam Avada Kedavra? Give me a break.
Imagine Kimbo Slice fighting Alistair Overeem, thats what this is essentially. More tools in the tool-belt and extensive knowledge on how to use them.
Voldemort has fought in two entire wars as well..... albeit none of them being even remotely as long as the ones Vader/Anakin has fought.
But the only thing we really need to take into consideration is that Voldemort is incapable of reacting before Vader slays him. With that knowledge, we know it's a total stomp.
@ShootingNova: Comparing Voldemorts "wars" to the wars Vader has fought in is like comparing WWII to a gang war
@RingSlinger: That is something I can agree on.
Movie Vader loses for sure.
lol!
@Genxsis said:
@kingkronos: False. Movie Vader would murder him via tv screen.
Movie Vader is a walking robot with a lightsaber that he doesn't even know how to use. He fails utterly.
@ShootingNova said:
@Hksaru said:
Voldemort, like any experienced wizard does not need to speak to cast spells, least of all his most used one. Voldemort would get his spell off regardless of what Vader does because it will take at least a second to take Voldemort down and that's more than enough time for an Avada Kedavra beam to reach Vader, which he has no way of defending against. I'm also fairly certain Voldemort, the most powerful dark wizard of all time, is well-versed in healing spells so whatever organ Vader decides to crush he'd simply regenerate. That's not saying Voldemort is immune, but Vader is dying in any case; it boils down to whether or not Voldemort can recuperate from the damage Vader does in the 0-1 seconds before he's fried.
What? Again, Voldemort cannot even react to Vader. Voldemort is just a Wizard with perhaps enhanced (for a human) reflexes and speed, but not nearly enough to even react to Vader. Vader can most certainly react to Voldemort, because he can see things moving at sub-light speeds in slow motion:
Obi-Wan was already making that exact move as Anakin spoke. But they were inverted to each other: breaking right shot him one way while Anakin whipped the other. The tri-fighters' cannons ripped space between them, tracking faster than their starfighters could slip. His onboard threat display chimed a warning: two of the droids had remote sensor locks on him. The others must have lit up his partner. "Anakin! Slip-jaws!"
"My thought exactly."
They blew past the tri-fighters, looping in evasive spirals. The droid ships wrenched themselves into pursuit maneuvers that would have killed any living pilot. The slip-jaws maneuver was named for the scissorlike mandibles of the Kashyyyk slash-spider. Droids closing rapidly on their tails, cannonfire stitching space on all sides, the two Jedi pulled their ships through perfectly mirrored rolls that sent them streaking head-on for each other from opposite ends of a vast Republic cruiser. For merely human pilots, this would be suicide. By the time you can see your partner's starfighter streaking toward you at a respectable fraction of lightspeed, it's already too late for your merely human reflexes to react.
But these particular pilots were far from merely human.
The Force nudged hands on control yokes and the Jedi starfighters twisted and flashed past each other belly-to-belly, close enough to scorch each other's paint.--Taken from Revenge of the Sith
That was Anakin Skywalker. Vader suffered a huge reduction in power.
I'm not seeing those "lightspeed reflexes".
And even if he knows whats about to happen to him, it comes down to how fast Vader can move his body. You can have all the reflexes in the world, but if you can't move at super human speeds it's worthless.
Imagine Vader fighting off the giant fire snake from Order of The Phoenix. That would be a laugh.
Voldemort doesnt need to speak to cast a spell, he can shoot blasts of magic out of his wand and more probally, But Vader could just choke him before voldemort could even react or see him. Upfront EU vader stomps, Film vader may have more dificulty. What vader lacks in speed he makes up for in brute strength and force powers.
Voldemort stomps vader hard, vader isn't as nearly as powerful as voldemort
many of you said that vader could just choke voldemort and stop him from using the killing curse but remember that he is fighting a master of the dark arts with immense power. he knows many spells and curses that require neither his wand nor his voice to use. plus even if voldemort is getting choked, that wont stop him from thinking a spell to use it (which he has done on a couple of occasions) and if volde does use the killing curse, vader must dodge, u cannot block a spell with a nonmagical object
@kingkronos: False. Movie Vader Has reflexes fast enough to block blaster bolts with his bear hands. Is a very skilled pilot. Has telekenesis and strong force senses. Voldermort was out muscled by a child.(since we are talking movie versions) So, it is very possible for Vader to close distance. If he grabbed him, Voldermort would be screwed. Voldermort never displayed any extremely deadly wordless magic, while Vader has displayed force chock and crush.
Vader doesn't need his super reflexes to dodged other visible spells as Fawkes was able to intercept an AK after it was cast during Voldermort vs Dumbledore's fight. So, the AK could actually just be side stepped. However, it is far more likely he would just intercept that with his light saber. And as I have said before (in this thread I believe) Voldermort has zero knowledge of what the force is or a jedi/sith abilities. Voldermort has knowledge of how magic works. Thus, almost nothing is working is Voldermorts favor.
Voldermort, like he always does, will open up with AK. Vader will counter this with either his saber or side stepping. If it is reflected, this would most likely kill Voldermort as it is stated that it can't be counter. He'd not see that coming ever. If he side steps, he'll just choke him out and combo it with lightsaber throw. Two things he has been shown to do. Again, death for Voldermort with in the first few minutes of the fight.
But in the long run, if someone could just get a live feed on Voldermort, Vader would just choke him to death and never have to fight him at all.
Vader
False. Movie Vader Has reflexes fast enough to block blaster bolts with his bear hands.
He's a walking robot that moves slower than a normal human being.
Is a very skilled pilot.
Which is completely irrelevant.
Has telekenesis and strong force senses.
So does Voldemort. Going by the HP Deathly Hallows part 2, Voldemort moved a Giant wandlessly by TK.
Voldermort was out muscled by a child.(since we are talking movie versions)
Never happened.
So, it is very possible for Vader to close distance.
Of course, because Voldemort can't teleport, fly, or make himself invisible....
If he grabbed him, Voldermort would be screwed.
Good luck catching a wizard who can teleport in an instant to another part of the world, and who can fly.
Voldermort never displayed any extremely deadly wordless magic,
You mean nothing other than a 20 meter fiendfyre serpent?
0:56
Or about 13 AK on Harry in Deathly Hallows part 2.
Or a spell that destroyed a shield that was shielding a magical city.
Vader doesn't need his super reflexes to dodged other visible spells as Fawkes was able to intercept an AK after it was cast during Voldermort vs Dumbledore's fight.
Movie version, try to keep up.
Voldermort has zero knowledge of what the force is or a jedi/sith abilities.
Yeah that reminds me, Voldemort can just posses Darth Vader by controlling and corrupting his mind by legimency.
Thus, almost nothing is working is Voldermorts favor.
It's kinda the opposite.
Voldermort, like he always does, will open up with AK. Vader will counter this with either his saber or side stepping. If it is reflected, this would most likely kill Voldermort as it is stated that it can't be counter. He'd not see that coming ever. If he side steps, he'll just choke him out and combo it with lightsaber throw.
So you got all figured, right? Because Voldemort will just stand there and let Vader choke him, instead of you know, teleporting away, or flying above Vader and AK him, or summoning 20 meter fiendfyre serpent, or casting his shield penetration spell, or making himself invisible.
You keep saying Vader chokes, when Voldemort can:
1. Teleport away
2. Fly above him and AK him
3. Make himself invisible and toy with Vader
4. Posses Vader through legimency
5. Summon fiendfyre and enjoy the show
6. Cast his shield penetration spell.
7. Cast 13 AKs simultaneously
Any death eater would stomp Vader.
Hmm... let's see Vader's options here.
Hmm... let's see Voldemort's options here.
@kingkronos: This is funny, because at first, I was like "He's not serious." Then I read the post and thought "Ha! He is serious!" So, let's get to it, shall we.
@kingkronos: He's a walking robot that moves slower than a normal human being.
This changes nothing about him being capable of blocking blaster fire. So, all you're doing now is trash talking. No matter what, he's reaction time is far ahead of Voldermorts. End of story on this.
Which is completely irrelevant.
False. You said he fails utterly. You can't do that and be a great pilot.
So does Voldemort. Going by the HP Deathly Hallows part 2, Voldemort moved a Giant wandlessly by TK
False. He has no powers of the force. Also, he is a wizard. Meaning, he used magic.
Never happened.
Also false. Potter pulls him off a bridge with him. I don't care if it didn't happen in the book. As I said, since the movie versions where brought up.
Of course, because Voldemort can't teleport, fly, or make himself invisible....
Because he is known to do that right? If that were the case, why did he lose? It is not in his nature to suddenly take flight when he doesn't need to or become invisible. Moreover, Vader has proven his ability to sense life force is quite high. He does not need to see him.
Good luck catching a wizard who can teleport in an instant to another part of the world, and who can fly.
True, but that's called running like a coward. However, if he came to fight like the OP states, he can be grabbed and choked out.
You mean nothing other than a 20 meter fiendfyre serpent? Or about 13 AK on Harry in Deathly Hallows part 2.
Or a spell that destroyed a shield that was shielding a magical city.
Yes. I am referring to all of those things. Fiendfyre : The head master waved his wand at it and it bumped it's head and locked quite disoriented afterwords. So, by proxy, strong force push followed by force throw. Not a problem. 13 AK. 13 side steps followed by 14th side step to avoid random nameless shelled breaking spell.
Movie version, try to keep up.
I'm in the lead. What are you saying????
Yeah that reminds me, Voldemort can just posses Darth Vader by controlling and corrupting his mind by legimency.
False. Harry was trying for all of a few weeks to resist him and did so to a certain degree. Vader has years of Jedi training to resist mind affect and is also skill for at Dominate mind. By that same logic, Vader could say "Break your own neck" and wave his fingers and Voldermort would do that. Moreover, that is far more likely in the mind takeover department than Vader being possessed as, like stated before, Harry was able to resist voldermort and he wasn't even finished with his wizard training. Vader is a Sith Lord with over 2 decades of exp under his belt. So no sir, that would certainly not happen.
So you got all figured, right? Because Voldemort will just stand there and let Vader choke him, instead of you know, teleporting away, or flying above Vader and AK him, or summoning 20 meter fiendfyre serpent, or casting his shield penetration spell, or making himself invisible.
You keep saying Vader chokes, when Voldemort can:
1. Teleport away
2. Fly above him and AK him
3. Make himself invisible and toy with Vader
4. Posses Vader through legimency
5. Summon fiendfyre and enjoy the show
6. Cast his shield penetration spell.
7. Cast 13 AKs simultaneously
Any death eater would stomp Vader.
Yes I do. He would certainly just stand there instead of flying away, teleporting, or flying above him and AK'ing him, Summoning the fire thing, casting a shield, or making himself invisible because of the following simple facts.
1)flying away would meaning running. Teleporting away would be the same. If he does that, he would be admitting he could win. Battle over. Vader wins.
2) Side stepping!!!!!! OMG how many times do I need to say this. Side stepping!!! That attack can be dodged. More over, it's slow enough to where even if cast wordlessly, people can lock spells with it. Thus, even if Vader decided not to side step, lightsaber defends. AK will not work. Lastly, Force throw random object in the way of. Lord, there are so many ways around that, it's not even effect.
3)Vader can sense things in the force. ALL life. Just because you can not see it with you eyes, does not mean it is not there. Vader would choke out and people wouldn't even know he died because he'd be invisible when it happened. People would just think he ran like a coward.
4)Again, if a half trained child wizard can resist his legemency, A fully trained Sith Lord would be completely uneffected. Moreover, if because of their link, Completely untrained (in Legimecy) can invade Voldermorts mind, Vaders dominate mind would cause him to choke his self to death with his own wand. (Also, if Harry was trained in Legimecy, please do proved a link or some sort to support such. This won't change my opinion has my other facts are certainly true, but I will just take out the part about him being untrained. I don't recall ever reading where Snape taught him that and those lessons didn't even finish.)
5)Given that all that it took was a flick of the wand to stop that thing, force pimp slap should be more than enough to deal with it. But the show would still be worth the watch.
6) The shield means nothing. The force flows through all things. Rocks, Grass, bugs, air and Necks. So long as there is the force, there is a choke option. So unless this shield cuts him off from that, which I am sure would instantly kill him, don't see it doing much.
7)I'd love to see these 13 simultaneously cast AK's. I'm very sure you don't know what the word means based of this, but I could be wrong. In the event that I'm not and you are referring to "rapid succession" I offer you what I said before. Side steps. The light saber to block. Throwing random junk in the way. Force pushing his hand to face away from Vader. Taking the helmet off quickly and throwing it at the curse. Ducking. Bobbing and weaving. Like, there are just so many options, that as I said, the curse is not that effective.
No. No. You've brought forward nothing that supports you claim of this being a stomp and with Voldermort being the most power, he's death eaters would sooner kill each other and Lord Vader.
@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:
How good is Voldemort's sword abilities?
Oh, a sword... Against a Light Saber?
Forget the wand, Vader can just snatch it away with the Force.
i'm assuming he haves his reaction feats in episode 2 and 3 plus the force.there's no way voldemort is winning this.
@venomsapprentice said:
@ShootingNova said:
@Hksaru said:
Voldemort, like any experienced wizard does not need to speak to cast spells, least of all his most used one. Voldemort would get his spell off regardless of what Vader does because it will take at least a second to take Voldemort down and that's more than enough time for an Avada Kedavra beam to reach Vader, which he has no way of defending against. I'm also fairly certain Voldemort, the most powerful dark wizard of all time, is well-versed in healing spells so whatever organ Vader decides to crush he'd simply regenerate. That's not saying Voldemort is immune, but Vader is dying in any case; it boils down to whether or not Voldemort can recuperate from the damage Vader does in the 0-1 seconds before he's fried.
What? Again, Voldemort cannot even react to Vader. Voldemort is just a Wizard with perhaps enhanced (for a human) reflexes and speed, but not nearly enough to even react to Vader. Vader can most certainly react to Voldemort, because he can see things moving at sub-light speeds in slow motion:
Obi-Wan was already making that exact move as Anakin spoke. But they were inverted to each other: breaking right shot him one way while Anakin whipped the other. The tri-fighters' cannons ripped space between them, tracking faster than their starfighters could slip. His onboard threat display chimed a warning: two of the droids had remote sensor locks on him. The others must have lit up his partner. "Anakin! Slip-jaws!"
"My thought exactly."
They blew past the tri-fighters, looping in evasive spirals. The droid ships wrenched themselves into pursuit maneuvers that would have killed any living pilot. The slip-jaws maneuver was named for the scissorlike mandibles of the Kashyyyk slash-spider. Droids closing rapidly on their tails, cannonfire stitching space on all sides, the two Jedi pulled their ships through perfectly mirrored rolls that sent them streaking head-on for each other from opposite ends of a vast Republic cruiser. For merely human pilots, this would be suicide. By the time you can see your partner's starfighter streaking toward you at a respectable fraction of lightspeed, it's already too late for your merely human reflexes to react.
But these particular pilots were far from merely human.
The Force nudged hands on control yokes and the Jedi starfighters twisted and flashed past each other belly-to-belly, close enough to scorch each other's paint.--Taken from Revenge of the Sith
That was Anakin Skywalker. Vader suffered a huge reduction in power.
I'm not seeing those "lightspeed reflexes".
And even if he knows whats about to happen to him, it comes down to how fast Vader can move his body. You can have all the reflexes in the world, but if you can't move at super human speeds it's worthless.
Imagine Vader fighting off the giant fire snake from Order of The Phoenix. That would be a laugh.
Umm..... what? First of all, Vader and Anakin maintain the same sub-light speed reflexes. Remember, I said "sub-light", not "light".
I'm using the EU, why in the devil's name are you using the movies to try and counter? Not to mention the attacks are already moving much faster than you believe them to be. Vader never suffered any reduction in terms of power, he only lost his chance to become what he could have.
By the EU, Voldemort has absolutely nothing he can do before he is killed, prior to him even reacting.
Nothing except apparate behind him and instantly (read: instantly. There is no reaction time. He reforms instantly behind him with his wand in casting position, the wand is an inch from Vader's back, there's no sidestepping happening here) AK him from point blank range? Or take control of his defenseless (Vader is not an Occlumens - the counter art to Legilimency - it requires magic) mind instantly? Contrary to popular belief, the latter action is the one Voldemort would initially take because it's how he operates. It's how he "fights" his victims. He has them begging for death, then kills them. Vader would be no different because he has no magical power. Yes, Vader has control of the Force, but if he doesn't have control of his mind he doesn't have control of the Force.
The first action Vader would take would not be an instant death or neutralization move, either. He'd think he's dealing with some regular human because he detects no Force power in him. Then a second later he has no control over his mind or body. Then he experiences pain that makes being burned alive feel like an orgasm.
@Genxsis
Editting this post because my post count is limitted : \
Vader snaps Voldemort's neck, then what, dies to the AK? Then Voldemort regenerates his neck? Snapping a neck does not fit the definition of instant death.
I'm actually factboying right now. Voldemort is one of the few who can instantly, silently apparate.
By "control" I mean Voldemort could very easily make him truly believe false facts because Vader is in fact a muggle. Harry Potter also held within himself a piece of Voldemort's soul, giving him power over him. It had absolutely nothing to do with Harry himself. And Legilimency does not grant direct control like the Imperius Curse but you're right in that he could pull that curse out if he wanted to too.
I was led to believe that one's control over the Force is driven by Midi-chlorians, which Voldemort (probably) has none of. My point stands.
@Hksaru: I see what you did there. It's cool how you used instantly. Ok. So, during the instant that Voldermort apparates, Vader instantly snaps his neck. I see what you do that. It's actually pretty cool.
But back to legit debating.
Nothing except apparate behind him and instantly (read: instantly. There is no reaction time. He reforms instantly behind him with his wand in casting position, the wand is an inch from Vader's back, there's no sidestepping happening here) AK him from point blank range?
This is not a random encounter. OP states they both start at battle ready. Also, Apparating, isn't instant. It never has been. Every showing of it and every writing of it shows that it does take time to happen. Not a long time, but time and it also makes noise. The battle trained Sith Lord would cut him down for foolishly jumping into lightsaber distance. If you change the ability, then sure. This would work. But in every book the user had to first think of where they wanted to be and they were described as being sucked there. Otherwise, the elf would not have died when it attempted to use it to escape. Or the ill effect where body parts are misplaced when it is done improperly. So, it seems you are fanboying right now.
Or take control of his defenseless (Vader is not an Occlumens - the counter art to Legilimency - it requires magic) mind instantly? Contrary to popular belief, the latter action is the one Voldemort would initially take because it's how he operates. It's how he "fights" his victims. He has them begging for death, then kills them. Vader would be no different because he has no magical power. Yes, Vader has control of the Force, but if he doesn't have control of his mind he doesn't have control of the Force.
As I said before, if a child could resist this with the bare minimum training, it would be completely ineffective against Vader. Moreover, I have also stated that Vader has knowledge of Sith Magic. This can be defended against with the force. Also, Legilimency has never every given complete and instant control over someone. Never. If so, why would that have the imperius curse? One is forbidden the other is not. So, lets say he did attempt this on Vader. The Jedi mind trick works fast. He could simply say "stop it" and Voldermort would do so. Then say "Bite your own tongue off" and it would be so. So, I still see nothing about this working on Lord Vader.
he first action Vader would take would not be an instant death or neutralization move, either. He'd think he's dealing with some regular human because he detects no Force power in him. Then a second later he has no control over his mind or body. Then he experiences pain that makes being burned alive feel like an orgasm.
Still false. The force is in everything. That is what the force is. It flows through all things. Some more powerfully than others. It also stands to reason, that the most powerful dark wizard in history would probably be a major disturbance in the force. To further prove my point, the force lets it's users know things. Like when something is dangerous. Or when something bad is about to happen to someone you know. Examples are when Sidious states that he felt Lord vader was in trouble while he was on another Planet. Or when Aniken and Obi-won sensed that amidala was in danger while she was in the other room despite them having a full conversation about some random topic. Needless to say (though I will again) Voldermort would be on Vaders radar.
More over, as the OP stated, they are both in fighting position.
Both have full access to their sources of power(magic and the force) all weapons are already drawn (wand and lightsaber).
So the idea that Vader would not move to kill him in a deathmatch is crazy. Striking someone with a slight saber is certainly and instant kill. So, it is well within Vader history to always move to kill first unless he needs info. Otherwise, he just kills. Nothing of what you said makes sense.
Vader wins this with minimal effort
He's has a MASSIVE advantage in reaction time, movement speed, and has a forever active battle precognition through the Force. Speaking of the Force, Voldemort has no defense against it. Having a shield up is not going to prevent Vader from attacking him internally.
WAYS VADER CAN WIN
He causes multiple hemorrhages in Voldemort's brain, leaving him a crippled vegetable
He implodes Voldemort's skull with a thought
He speedblitzes and decapitates Voldemort (he can close a distance of 20 meters "in the blink of an eye" in The Rise of Darth Vader
He crushes his heart with TK
I could go on for awhile, but I think you get the picture
The only way Voldemort wins is if he can hit Vader with Avada Kedarva, and its been shown to move slow enough for NORMAL HUMANS to dodge. What's going to happen when someone like Vader, who has reflexive speed and burst movement capability that is fathoms beyond what any normal human can accomplish, decides to move? Vader gets misrepresented as a slow character too much. The guy is actually pretty freakin quick, fast enough to fight multiple Jedi (who are also above Vodlemort in reflex and movement speed) simultaneously.
Voldemort Apparating around the battlefield is not going to change the fact that Vader is going to know where he is Apparating. If Voldemort is foolish enough to go for the "instant" AK/ Apparte combo, Vader ignites his lightsaber in the spot where Voldemort is going to appear, Voldemort impales himself.
Vader's reflexes are far superior to anything Voldemort has shown. ever.
And Voldemort is not taking over Vader's mind. Vader has DECADES of experience and training in resisting mind control, and is well versed in Sith Magic and Alchemy himself. I wouldn't be suprised if Vader uses telepathy when Voldemort tries to dominate his mind in order to suggest he walks straight into Vader's blade.
@ShootingNova said:
@venomsapprentice said:
@ShootingNova said:
@Hksaru said:
Voldemort, like any experienced wizard does not need to speak to cast spells, least of all his most used one. Voldemort would get his spell off regardless of what Vader does because it will take at least a second to take Voldemort down and that's more than enough time for an Avada Kedavra beam to reach Vader, which he has no way of defending against. I'm also fairly certain Voldemort, the most powerful dark wizard of all time, is well-versed in healing spells so whatever organ Vader decides to crush he'd simply regenerate. That's not saying Voldemort is immune, but Vader is dying in any case; it boils down to whether or not Voldemort can recuperate from the damage Vader does in the 0-1 seconds before he's fried.
What? Again, Voldemort cannot even react to Vader. Voldemort is just a Wizard with perhaps enhanced (for a human) reflexes and speed, but not nearly enough to even react to Vader. Vader can most certainly react to Voldemort, because he can see things moving at sub-light speeds in slow motion:
Obi-Wan was already making that exact move as Anakin spoke. But they were inverted to each other: breaking right shot him one way while Anakin whipped the other. The tri-fighters' cannons ripped space between them, tracking faster than their starfighters could slip. His onboard threat display chimed a warning: two of the droids had remote sensor locks on him. The others must have lit up his partner. "Anakin! Slip-jaws!"
"My thought exactly."
They blew past the tri-fighters, looping in evasive spirals. The droid ships wrenched themselves into pursuit maneuvers that would have killed any living pilot. The slip-jaws maneuver was named for the scissorlike mandibles of the Kashyyyk slash-spider. Droids closing rapidly on their tails, cannonfire stitching space on all sides, the two Jedi pulled their ships through perfectly mirrored rolls that sent them streaking head-on for each other from opposite ends of a vast Republic cruiser. For merely human pilots, this would be suicide. By the time you can see your partner's starfighter streaking toward you at a respectable fraction of lightspeed, it's already too late for your merely human reflexes to react.
But these particular pilots were far from merely human.
The Force nudged hands on control yokes and the Jedi starfighters twisted and flashed past each other belly-to-belly, close enough to scorch each other's paint.--Taken from Revenge of the Sith
That was Anakin Skywalker. Vader suffered a huge reduction in power.
I'm not seeing those "lightspeed reflexes".
And even if he knows whats about to happen to him, it comes down to how fast Vader can move his body. You can have all the reflexes in the world, but if you can't move at super human speeds it's worthless.
Imagine Vader fighting off the giant fire snake from Order of The Phoenix. That would be a laugh.
Umm..... what? First of all, Vader and Anakin maintain the same sub-light speed reflexes. Remember, I said "sub-light", not "light".
I'm using the EU, why in the devil's name are you using the movies to try and counter? Not to mention the attacks are already moving much faster than you believe them to be. Vader never suffered any reduction in terms of power, he only lost his chance to become what he could have.
By the EU, Voldemort has absolutely nothing he can do before he is killed, prior to him even reacting.
The OP said nothing about it being EU Vader.
So your argument is that the MOVIE Vader, who appeared first, is less valid?
And lets be clear; MOVIE Vader and EU Vader are 2 different characters.
The first was created by George Lucas, the other has been written by a ton of
other people.
Now that we have that out of the way, weapons are already drawn, which means
Voldy can kill Vader at the speed of thought. Oh yes, I am aware of Vader's
theoretical ability to stop someones heart or crush their windpipe, but the time it
would take for Voldy to die would be enough to curse Vader with Avada Kedavra.
Non verbally of course.
So, even if Vader is able to get the first hit, it's still M.A.D.
In the end no one wins.
@venomsapprentice: George Lucas actually approves of all the EU continuity, because he realizes he created a universe so large that he alone could not tell the story. So EU Vader is indeed canon, albeit not on the level of G-Canon, but the EU can be used as a legitimate source of feats for Vader.
@venomsapprentice: What? It doesn't matter if the OP said nothing about the EU, I can use it if I want, as of site rules and precedence. As I am sure you are aware of, a mod has already given the warning: if in any scenario in which the EU has not been specified to be incapable of being used, you can use it as you please. Anybody who disregards the EU in that scenario will have their post(s) deleted and a warning on top of that.
I never said anything about validity. Again, I am very sure that we've been through this before, and with the Palpatine vs. Voldemort thread, I can give you the proof once more that the EU is still canon.
@Hksaru: LMAO! Who! I never thought to edit, but when my post count was low. Respect points added.
Vader snaps Voldemort's neck, then what, dies to the AK? Then Voldemort regenerates his neck? Snapping a neck does not fit the definition of instant death.
Ok, When I say snap his neck, I mean break the connection for spine to brain that results in cerebral shut down. I am not refering to breaking the neck which normally leave a person in extreme pain and immobile. Getting your neck snapped, leads to instant death. Getting it broken does not. Also, lets say the neck breaks, he falls then shoots the AK. It's still side step-able. Also, Voldermort is not immune to pain. So, I don't think he would just pop off a spell if his neck was quickly and suddenly broken.
I'm actually factboying right now. Voldemort is one of the few who can instantly, silently apparate.
You are fanboying? So why should I take this seriously??? Or was that a joke. Either way, please provide proof. If so, I will take back what I said.
By "control" I mean Voldemort could very easily make him truly believe false facts because Vader is in fact a muggle. Harry Potter also held within himself a piece of Voldemort's soul, giving him power over him. It had absolutely nothing to do with Harry himself. And Legilimency does not grant direct control like the Imperius Curse but you're right in that he could pull that curse out if he wanted to too.
I understand what you mean by control. But as I said before, no one has shown that Legilimency works instantly in that manner. It takes a prolonged exposure to the spell. As if it were instant, there would be no need for the Imperius curse. Which, as I explain, Vader has training to detect. The Jedi mind trick, on the other hand, does work instantly. Dominate mind and Imperious are done different ways and have the exact same effect. So, while I stand behind Vader being able to resist it, the argument could be made that either could mind trick the other.
I was led to believe that one's control over the Force is driven by Midi-chlorians, which Voldemort (probably) has none of. My point stands.
Only half true. Midi-chlorians are in all things, which is why the force is in all things.
Umm... Voldemort doesn't apparate instantly. He doesn't even get a chance to, because Voldemort is killed before he can react. There is no "instantly", because Voldemort cannot even do so.
@Genxsis said:
I was led to believe that one's control over the Force is driven by Midi-chlorians, which Voldemort (probably) has none of. My point stands.
Only half true. Midi-chlorians are in all things, which is why the force is in all things.
Not exactly. The Yuuzhan Vong were cut off from the Force. Now, to the poster you responded to, it absolutely has no matter if your opponent has no Midi-Chlorians in them. That means nothing. Midi-Chlorians simply equate to potential. So no, it's not a necessity for Voldemort to have Midi-Chlorians for Vader to use the Force on him.
I've always hated the concept of Midi-Chlorians. It screwed things up.
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