#1 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

Storm Shadow: Bow and Arrows, Submachine Gun, Twin Katanas, Throwing Knives, Shurikens

Snake Eyes: Submachine gun, Twin Katanas, Shurikens, Throwing Knives, 3 Smoke Grenades, 3 Frag Grenades

Batman has 3 Explosives, Batarangs, 3 Smoke Bombs, 3 of Standard Gear

Bucky has Cybernetic Arm, 2 Beretta's, Sniper Rifle, and Cap. America's shield.

Battlefield

Scenario

Both your teams are great at Stealth Warfare. Both your Teams are great at taking down a impossible to reach target. What happens when both of you are tasked to kill the other to save all of Mid World?

Blood Lusted

Start on opposite Gates to Isengard. Can battle anywhere in Isengard, but cannot leave the walls of Isengard.

To the Death and Death Only!

Perks

White Wizard sees all: Saruman give you the low down every 5 minuets of where your enemy is and he will hurl Bolts of Energy at your Foe from the Tower peak.

Your staff is broken: Like Gandalf the White you can pick one weapon or gear on both your enemies and have it broken beyond use. (This includes 3 of whatever gear, Unlimited Throwing Weapons, or Weapons in pairs)

Orc wild Riders: You gain 5 Orcs on Wargs to help you in your mission.

Anybody who needs votes please ask at the end of your debates. Give shout outs for votes.

#2 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2:

I'll take "Your Staff is Broken." I'll use it to destroy Bucky's Shield and Batman's 3 of Standard Gear.

#3 Posted by comicace3 (5999 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire: Wow that's... that's just cruel... I guess I'll have to go with White wizard see's all. And I'll let you have the first move.

#4 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicace3: That shield is just too good. :P

Anyway, opening strategy:Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow have uncanny, almost telepathic teamwork. They've trained together since they were children, and have fought with and against each other for their entire adult lives. They know each other backwards and forwards, and that intimate knowledge will give them an edge in this battle.

Both are ninjas, experts in stealth and are extremely fast and mobile. Although Saruman will be alerting you of my location every five minutes, my pair will be moving so fast that you won't have any idea where they are for most of the time in between Saruman's warnings. I have no worries about the energy bolts he'll be firing, as both Storm Shadow and Snake Eyes are incredible dodgers.

Bucky has no enhanced senses, so he'll have little chance of detecting my team. I'm not sure if New-52 Batman has any sensors in his cowl, but he's been ambushed by Talons before, so it's not impossible. Storm Shadow, however, has the ability to focus his Ki to use the "ear that sees" technique, which is similar to Daredevil's Radar Sense.

He's able to pinpoint everything in his surroundings even without being able to see it. He'll be constantly applying this technique to track your team, unlike Saruman who will only inform you in 5-minute intervals. Snake Eyes also has excellent senses and is always aware of his environment. While distracted, he catches an arrow fired with no warning, and he wins a sword-fight blindfolded.

Knowing your location at all times will give my team an advantage in the stealth game, and they have the skills to take advantage of it. Snake Eyes is no stranger to catching his foes unawares, and neither is Storm Shadow. The two of them were able to sneak undetected into Cobra Commander's bedroom, and they then disappear from right in front of him.

So they should be able to get the drop on your pair, and they have the skills and morals to take advantage.

#5 Edited by comicace3 (5999 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire: Having excellent senses doesn't mean you have enhanced senses. Both our team are peak human including bucky. His arm however can shoot emp blasts, is strong enough to punch through metal and his hand is like an extra eye for him. Lets begin with photo 1 ( look up). He was able to shoot 3 of Hawk eye's arrow in midair.

Now here he is fighting using no arms. Notice how he also dodges a bullet during the fight. And tell me how is snake eye's and Storm shadow gonna dodge a bolt of lightning going at... 224,000 mph? That's just a normal lightning strike. If someone actually creates lightning to hit some one, the lightning bolt will go even faster.

Here is a great pic for his stealth. He followed wolverine for 3 days without him knowing. Note: wolverine has enhanced senses. He followed him for another month, again without him noticing. Yes your team has a bow and arrow but we have bucky for that. Yes they have submachine guns but we have batman for that. And remember shurikens meets batarangs, batarangs meets shurikens. You get my drift? Twin katanas meet bucky's arm and skill and batman skill.

#6 Posted by joewell (6436 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire: You should have broke the arm

#7 Edited by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@joewell said:

@Esquire: You should have broke the arm

Thought about it, but I'd hate debating against shield-throws and the whole "indestructible" thing Cap's shield has going on. The arm is good, but I don't think it's anything my guys can't handle.

@comicace3 said:

Having excellent senses doesn't mean you have enhanced senses.

That's true, but it seems that Storm Shadow does have a form of enhanced senses. Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow can control their Chi, much like Iron Fist. IF is able to amp his senses using Chi, so it stands to reason that's how Snake Eyes and Tommy have such incredible senses. Storm Shadow has total awareness of his surroundings using only his ears. He's shot a squirrel blindfolded, even. So I would argue that they do in fact have somewhat enhanced senses. Ninja Master has never seen anyone with as much Chi as Snake Eyes has.

Both our team are peak human including bucky. His arm however can shoot emp blasts, is strong enough to punch through metal and his hand is like an extra eye for him. Lets begin with photo 1 ( look up). He was able to shoot 3 of Hawk eye's arrow in midair.

His arm is indeed powerful and versatile, but it doesn't grant him speed or skill, which he'll need in fighting my ninjas. He's very accurate, but Storm Shadow and Snake Eyes are also excellent shots with a firearm as well:

Now here he is fighting using no arms. Notice how he also dodges a bullet during the fight.

Bullet dodging is child's play for my characters. Storm Shadow doesn't even consider them dangerous, and Snake Eyes doesn't just dodge them, but deflects them by the dozen.

And tell me how is snake eye's and Storm shadow gonna dodge a bolt of lightning going at... 224,000 mph? That's just a normal lightning strike. If someone actually creates lightning to hit some one, the lightning bolt will go even faster.

They have no problem with Lasers, which supposedly travel at near the speed of light, which is 670,616,629 mph or about 3000 times as fast as that lightning strike. So even if we assume that they're only traveling at 1% of lightspeed, it's still far, far faster than lightning.

And do you have any showings of Bucky's arm actually firing lightning bolts? I may be wrong, but I always though it had to make contact to shock people.

Here is a great pic for his stealth. He followed wolverine for 3 days without him knowing. Note: wolverine has enhanced senses. He followed him for another month, again without him noticing.

That's by far Bucky's stealth feat. It's an abnormally high showing, and an extremely impressive feat. The difference in this match is that a) we're fighting in a pretty enclosed space, and b) my team is actually looking for Bucky. Wolverine wasn't. He was just living his life in the village Bucky was watching. He had no idea anyone was coming for him.

Yes your team has a bow and arrow but we have bucky for that. Yes they have submachine guns but we have batman for that.

How is Batman going to counter submachine guns? And if the fire arrows from concealment, neither of your characters will know they're coming, so they can't react to them. Snake Eyes is especially fond of using his gun, and he mixes it in both from range and in close combat. Bucky's been shot by Crossbones, so it should be very possible for my ninjas to do the same. Batman is at a disadvantage at long range, since he only has batarangs. Although he's very accurate with them, my characters dance around things far more deadly than anything Batman can throw. They can stay at range and dodge all of Bucky's fire, and since he doesn't have his shield they should be able to gun him down, followed by Batman.

And remember shurikens meets batarangs, batarangs meets shurikens. You get my drift?

But bullets and arrows are far more deadly than either. And both ninjas are extremely effective with throwing weapons.

Twin katanas meet bucky's arm and skill and batman skill.

The superior reach of the katanas will give them a huge advantage, and their skills are at least comparable to those of Bucky and Bruce. But their biggest edge is speed. Both Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow are sensationally fast, with feats that put them above both Batman and Bucky. Snake Eyes punches out someone before his knife hits the ground and speed-blitzes 3 enemy soldiers. Storm Shadow speedblitzes guards after ignoring their bullets, and disappears from the center of a large group of people. They both deflect bullets with ease, and their combat speed is incredible.

The problem with your team is that you rely too much on Bucky's arm. It's a fabulous piece of technology, but...

#8 Edited by comicace3 (5999 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire: I gotta admit that's pretty good the way you took my words and countered it. Now I would bombard you with batman pics but lts start with a few. Here batman is dodging malik's blast's. They also move near the speed of light. Oh and when you said bucky shoots lightning outta his arm I meant Sarumen.

Here Bruce is shown enhancing his chi through meditation. Melting ice around him. The picture before it Bruce is defeating a ninja with only skill.

Here batman is shown beating 3 thugs all at the same time in one move.

Despite being injured batman still defeats a venom enhanced clayface.

Batman defeating swat team just using fighting skills. And agility.

Here Batman dodges MACHINE GUN and takes down a helicopter only using a dagger. As we all know batman is more than human if he can do this.

Not new 52 but you get the Idea of batman dodging an arrow he is not even looking at.

Now about Bucky. In avengers mightiest heroes Episode 21 Bucky ( as winter soldier) catches a missile being shot at cap. america which holds the antidote to cure him. If you want proof go to this link : http://www.watchcartoononline.com/the-avengers-earths-mightiest-heroes-season-2-episode-20-code-red , press watch video and skip to 16:00. Red skull was surprised by Bucky's reflexes and as we all know no one expected that to happen. So shooting bow and arrows at Batman and Bucky won't work. Throwing shurikens won't work because if they impale batman or Bucky .. they will still keep on fighting. Batman's cowl has sensors so you can't get too close to him. Machine guns won't work because as we all know batman dodges bullets being fired by machine guns on a regular day and Bucky... well i'll leave that for another post... The twin kitana's will be deadly, yes, but that is exactly why batman has his gauntlet and Bucky has his arm. So in my opinion this could go either way. Now it's your move. Sorry for my 1001 edits it's just my pics aren't showing correctly.

#9 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicace3 said:

When you said bucky shoots lightning outta his arm I meant Sarumen.

Gotcha. I think my showings of laser-dodging are still a valid counter for it, though.

Here Bruce is shown enhancing his chi through meditation. Melting ice around him.

Solid. Has he ever shown any sign of enhanced senses, though? And that includes using the cowl.

The picture before it Bruce is defeating a ninja with only skill.

He pretty much ambushes the guy with a kick. Not a bad showing, but Storm Shadow can dominate Shipwreck and Snake Eyes' apprentice, the ninja Kamakura, at the same time.

Snake Eyes is able to defeat a ninja master, Firefly, who's been responsible for the death of many skilled Joes.

Despite being injured batman still defeats a venom enhanced clayface.

Snake Eyes beats Starscream. Yes, the Transformer.

Maybe not the most valid feat, but still pretty awesome.

Here batman is shown beating 3 thugs all at the same time in one move.

Snake Eyes disarms four Cobra soldiers in one move:

Batman defeating swat team just using fighting skills.

Storm Shadow defeats groups of Joes:

And agility.

Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow both have more impressive agility showings than that.

Here Batman dodges MACHINE GUN and takes down a helicopter only using a dagger. As we all know batman is more than human if he can do this.

Not new 52 but you get the Idea of batman dodging an arrow he is not even looking at.

I don't mind if you want to use Pre-52 feats. But I've already show Snake Eyes doing the same thing, and Storm Shadow has no trouble with arrows.

Now about Bucky. In avengers mightiest heroes Episode 21 Bucky ( as winter soldier) catches a missile being shot at cap. america which holds the antidote to cure him.

That's a non-canon feat, since it takes place in a TV show. I think you're looking for something like this:

However, Snake Eyes is still better than that. He catches multiple arrows simultaneously, even though he can't see them until they're a couple of feet away.

So shooting bow and arrows at Batman and Bucky won't work.

Storm Shadow can still shoot Bucky from behind, since he has no way of detecting the ninja. Storm Shadow has infiltrated military bases, the house of an African President, and the heavily guarded house of an officer, all without being detected. This is in addition to the stealth feats I've already shown in earlier posts. He should have little trouble ambushing Bucky, and his morals don't prevent him from ambushing Barnes.

Throwing shurikens won't work because if they impale batman or Bucky .. they will still keep on fighting.

But they'll be slowed by the injuries, and their opponents are already faster than they are. Shurikens won't stop your team, certainly, but they give my team one more advantage.

Batman's cowl has sensors so you can't get too close to him.

What kind of sensors? Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow have been able to ambush a robot with infrared and motion sensors before, while avoiding detection by security personnel monitoring security cameras around the room.

They end up defeating the killer robot, too, so it's a good feat all around. This also showcases their impressive teamwork.

Machine guns won't work because as we all know batman dodges bullets being fired by machine guns on a regular day

Batman has been shot by accurate opponents before, such as Deadshot. Both Storm Shadow and Snake Eyes have excellent marksmanship, and they use projectiles in close quarters as well. Batman may be able to dodge for a while, but it's just one more thing for him to worry about. When he's fighting opponents who are comparably skilled, faster, and much better armed, his disadvantages begin to stack up.

The twin kitana's will be deadly, yes, but that is exactly why batman has his gauntlet and Bucky has his arm.

Bucky can only block one katana at a time, and the swords are easily able to slice through metal. I've shown examples already of them slicing through guns, and they're able to slice through the combat robot without much issue. So Bucky's arm won't be able to block their slashes for long before his arm is disabled. Same for Batman's gauntlets.

#10 Edited by comicace3 (5999 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire: We shall continue this another time because... Well Imma student and I have school. But:

1. Thanks for the pic.. that was really helpful in a way and it shows Bucky was only trying to catch one arrow, not all of it as you can see two of the arrow hit the... whatever it's called ( I forgot)

2. Batman is never slowed down when he is impaled by knives because when he first encountered a talon ( and was impaled multiple times) he was still able to choke hold him adding 100 pounds of pressure. Then defeating him of course. ( I'll show you a pic later)

5. He survived Kill shot from a sniper rifle and still was able to continue fighting with out any problem, chasing a guy, throwing a cinder block at him, then beating him and throwing him through a window. ( I'll show you a pic later)

4. If bucky's arm is sliced off he can control it mentally causing another problem for the ninja's ( I'll show you a pic later.. er well if you just look up bucky it says it in his abilities )

5. Bucky has defeated cap. America of the 50's who is superhuman and is at least 6 times better than cap at fighting... and everything else. ( I'll show you a pic later)

6. Bonus: Really? Starscream? The transformer? Are they even in the same universe?

7. Since Bucky has his sniper rifle he can keep a distance hiding wherever he needs to be. Unseen and unheard and can be back up if batman needs help. I have another question. Storm shadow was able to dodge lasers because he knew they were coming. What if Sarumen just shoots lightning from anywhere? How will he know where to dodge/ jump? How will he even know it's coming when lightning moves really fast... and he can't hear a signal for when lightning comes?. And remember Sarumen will tell me wherever you are every 5 minutes and if bucky has his sniper rifle it's almost impossible to miss a shot due to his superior accuracy ( Not that your team doesn't have it)

8. If your really good at stealth ( like batman and Bucky) wouldn't you know if your being followed? It's like having Ice-cream without the ice. To be a master of stealth means you know if someone is using stealth to follow you. You are able to track down poeple in ways other people wouldn't even think of doing.

#11 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicace3 said:

We shall continue this another time because... Well Imma student and I have school.

No worries, I can wait.

2. Batman is never slowed down when he is impaled by knives because when he first encountered a talon ( and was impaled multiple times) he was still able to choke hold him adding 100 pounds of pressure. Then defeating him of course.
5. He survived Kill shot from a sniper rifle and still was able to continue fighting with out any problem, chasing a guy, throwing a cinder block at him, then beating him and throwing him through a window.

Both very good feats. What story arc is the second one from? I'm not familiar with it. You make a very good point. I'll concede that it will be a while before shurikens and throwing knives will slow Batman down. Although if they tag him from the shadows and then ghost away, he'll eventually get worn down. Snake Eyes has tagged Storm Shadow with a thrown weapon, so he should have no trouble hitting Batman and Bucky, neither of whom have dodging feats on SS's level. And Bucky's endurance and pain tolerance isn't on Batman's level, so he'll be worn down even faster. Added to that is the fact that he's been shot before, even through his suit, and he doesn't have his shield to block with, so both Storm Shadow and Snake Eyes should be able to tag him from range.

4. If bucky's arm is sliced off he can control it mentally causing another problem for the ninja's

But they won't be slicing his arm off, they'll be slicing it apart. And even if it was still functional, two of the deadliest ninjas in fiction would have a lot less trouble fighting it off than some random scientists. And they're well capable of cutting it up, too. They've sliced off the leg of a bullet-timing cyborg ninja with a whole bunch of crazy tech. Things didn't end well for him, even so.

5. Bucky has defeated cap. America of the 50's who is superhuman and is at least 6 times better than cap at fighting... and everything else.

That's not totally accurate. Bucky did indeed beat 50s Cap, (twice, in fact), but 50s Cap has only twice the stats of Steve Rogers, not six times. And he's not even close in fighting skill, seeing as Steve was able to defeat him despite the speed and strength deficiency. Still a solid feat for Bucky, but both Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow have fought and defeated enhanced enemies as well, and 50s Cap had neither the stealth nor the ranged weapon advantages that the ninjas have.

6. Bonus: Really? Starscream? The transformer? Are they even in the same universe?

I'm honestly not sure if that's canon for the GI Joe universe, but it's too awesome not to post. Probably shouldn't make a huge difference in the debate, though, seeing as Snake Eyes has better speed feats.

7. Since Bucky has his sniper rifle he can keep a distance hiding wherever he needs to be. Unseen and unheard and can be back up if batman needs help.

Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow can both deflect bullets, which indicates that they can perceive them in flight. Since that's the case, they should be able to react to the bullet itself being fired, and still avoid or deflect the shot.

Isengard is also a very poor location for sniping, since the only decent vantage point is Orthanc, which is nearly impossible to climb. Even if Bucky's arm let him scale it, he would be a very noticeable target and be in at least as much danger as the ninjas. So if he uses one of the various structures for a vantage point, Batman will be forced to stay close in order to stay in Bucky's line of sight. This makes him a much easier target for Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow, and will also help them pinpoint Bucky, since they're both strategic geniuses. Once they pinpoint Bucky, his perch will greatly limit his mobility and will allow the ninjas to flank him easily. They both have weapons that can hurt him, they can easily dodge or deflect his shots, and Snake Eyes even has grenades to flush him out.

I have another question. Storm shadow was able to dodge lasers because he knew they were coming. What if Sarumen just shoots lightning from anywhere? How will he know where to dodge/ jump? How will he even know it's coming when lightning moves really fast... and he can't hear a signal for when lightning comes?.

According to the description of the perk, Saruman will stay in the peak of the tower. Since that's the case, then not only can my pair dodge the lightning, they can stay out of Saruman's line of sight by using cover to block the lightning. I had also assumed that he was only going to be firing in five-minute intervals, but upon rereading the perk description I'm not sure if that's the case or not. The ninjas are excellent tacticians, so they won't stay exposed to the Tower's view whenever possible, and in the event that they have to cross open ground, they'll naturally be on alert for lightning.

And remember Sarumen will tell me wherever you are every 5 minutes and if bucky has his sniper rifle it's almost impossible to miss a shot due to his superior accuracy ( Not that your team doesn't have it)

One problem with this are that my team would have to be in Bucky's view right when Saruman told him where they were, which is unlikely because there aren't any particularly good vantage points for Bucky. And even if he was able to take the shot, both ninjas are fast enough to dodge bullets after they're fired and deflect them with their swords, so even though Bucky is accurate at great distances, my pair can both evade the shot after it's no longer in Bucky's control.

8. If your really good at stealth ( like batman and Bucky) wouldn't you know if your being followed? It's like having Ice-cream without the ice. To be a master of stealth means you know if someone is using stealth to follow you. You are able to track down poeple in ways other people wouldn't even think of doing.

Stealth skill will help, certainly, but Batman has been ambushed before. One of the Talons, Lincoln March, iirc, was able to ambush him and kill a couple people who were with Bruce. So he's not infallible, and these are the ninjas who evaded detection by a robot with infrared and motion detectors while in an enclosed room. Their stealth skills are incredible. And they don't necessarily have to get right up behind Batman, either. A couple of bullets from 100 yards will swing the fight in their favor, even before they get close enough for h2h.

#12 Edited by comicace3 (5999 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

@comicace3 said:

We shall continue this another time because... Well Imma student and I have school.

No worries, I can wait.

2. Batman is never slowed down when he is impaled by knives because when he first encountered a talon ( and was impaled multiple times) he was still able to choke hold him adding 100 pounds of pressure. Then defeating him of course.
5. He survived Kill shot from a sniper rifle and still was able to continue fighting with out any problem, chasing a guy, throwing a cinder block at him, then beating him and throwing him through a window.

Both very good feats. What story arc is the second one from? I'm not familiar with it. You make a very good point. I'll concede that it will be a while before shurikens and throwing knives will slow Batman down. Although if they tag him from the shadows and then ghost away, he'll eventually get worn down. Snake Eyes has tagged Storm Shadow with a thrown weapon, so he should have no trouble hitting Batman and Bucky, neither of whom have dodging feats on SS's level. And Bucky's endurance and pain tolerance isn't on Batman's level, so he'll be worn down even faster. Added to that is the fact that he's been shot before, even through his suit, and he doesn't have his shield to block with, so both Storm Shadow and Snake Eyes should be able to tag him from range.

4. If bucky's arm is sliced off he can control it mentally causing another problem for the ninja's

But they won't be slicing his arm off, they'll be slicing it apart. And even if it was still functional, two of the deadliest ninjas in fiction would have a lot less trouble fighting it off than some random scientists. And they're well capable of cutting it up, too. They've sliced off the leg of a bullet-timing cyborg ninja with a whole bunch of crazy tech. Things didn't end well for him, even so.

5. Bucky has defeated cap. America of the 50's who is superhuman and is at least 6 times better than cap at fighting... and everything else.

That's not totally accurate. Bucky did indeed beat 50s Cap, (twice, in fact), but 50s Cap has only twice the stats of Steve Rogers, not six times. And he's not even close in fighting skill, seeing as Steve was able to defeat him despite the speed and strength deficiency. Still a solid feat for Bucky, but both Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow have fought and defeated enhanced enemies as well, and 50s Cap had neither the stealth nor the ranged weapon advantages that the ninjas have.

6. Bonus: Really? Starscream? The transformer? Are they even in the same universe?

I'm honestly not sure if that's canon for the GI Joe universe, but it's too awesome not to post. Probably shouldn't make a huge difference in the debate, though, seeing as Snake Eyes has better speed feats.

7. Since Bucky has his sniper rifle he can keep a distance hiding wherever he needs to be. Unseen and unheard and can be back up if batman needs help.

Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow can both deflect bullets, which indicates that they can perceive them in flight. Since that's the case, they should be able to react to the bullet itself being fired, and still avoid or deflect the shot.

Isengard is also a very poor location for sniping, since the only decent vantage point is Orthanc, which is nearly impossible to climb. Even if Bucky's arm let him scale it, he would be a very noticeable target and be in at least as much danger as the ninjas. So if he uses one of the various structures for a vantage point, Batman will be forced to stay close in order to stay in Bucky's line of sight. This makes him a much easier target for Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow, and will also help them pinpoint Bucky, since they're both strategic geniuses. Once they pinpoint Bucky, his perch will greatly limit his mobility and will allow the ninjas to flank him easily. They both have weapons that can hurt him, they can easily dodge or deflect his shots, and Snake Eyes even has grenades to flush him out.

I have another question. Storm shadow was able to dodge lasers because he knew they were coming. What if Sarumen just shoots lightning from anywhere? How will he know where to dodge/ jump? How will he even know it's coming when lightning moves really fast... and he can't hear a signal for when lightning comes?.

According to the description of the perk, Saruman will stay in the peak of the tower. Since that's the case, then not only can my pair dodge the lightning, they can stay out of Saruman's line of sight by using cover to block the lightning. I had also assumed that he was only going to be firing in five-minute intervals, but upon rereading the perk description I'm not sure if that's the case or not. The ninjas are excellent tacticians, so they won't stay exposed to the Tower's view whenever possible, and in the event that they have to cross open ground, they'll naturally be on alert for lightning.

And remember Sarumen will tell me wherever you are every 5 minutes and if bucky has his sniper rifle it's almost impossible to miss a shot due to his superior accuracy ( Not that your team doesn't have it)

One problem with this are that my team would have to be in Bucky's view right when Saruman told him where they were, which is unlikely because there aren't any particularly good vantage points for Bucky. And even if he was able to take the shot, both ninjas are fast enough to dodge bullets after they're fired and deflect them with their swords, so even though Bucky is accurate at great distances, my pair can both evade the shot after it's no longer in Bucky's control.

8. If your really good at stealth ( like batman and Bucky) wouldn't you know if your being followed? It's like having Ice-cream without the ice. To be a master of stealth means you know if someone is using stealth to follow you. You are able to track down poeple in ways other people wouldn't even think of doing.

Stealth skill will help, certainly, but Batman has been ambushed before. One of the Talons, Lincoln March, iirc, was able to ambush him and kill a couple people who were with Bruce. So he's not infallible, and these are the ninjas who evaded detection by a robot with infrared and motion detectors while in an enclosed room. Their stealth skills are incredible. And they don't necessarily have to get right up behind Batman, either. A couple of bullets from 100 yards will swing the fight in their favor, even before they get close enough for h2h.

OOOOOOOK I'm back: and thanks for the pics ( again)

1. Batman has dodged a kill shot before and this was in the Batman and robin comics. After running several meters He throws cinder bock in someone's face, carries him and throws him through a building. If you think batman is gonna get tired it's gonna be a loooooong time. And batman knows when he is tagged who's to say he won't cover his tracks? Yes one of the talon's ambushed Bruce and they killed the people who were with Bruce not Bruce at all.

2. Yes Bucky isn't on batman's pain tolerance level which is why he keeps his distance. But who's to say he can't avoid the pain by... well dodging whatever they throw at him? And let's be logical here if you try to waist your time cutting off bucky's arm that will just give enough time for batman and Bucky to strike. I admit I was mistaken when I said 50's cap was 6 times better than the original cap. He was 3 times faster than cap and was in the 2 ton lifting range. He is 6 time Bucky's stats who is only peak human and yet he was still able to beat him. And who says you need a vantage point to shoot a sniper? He can easily cover himself someway and since his stealth skill is well developed he won't make a sound. And as usual to add the stealth most sniper rifles has a silencer.

3. Yes both ninja's are able to dodge bullets but do they dodge sniper bullets?

4. My team can dodge bullets also and well shooting at them will just annoy them. How bout a little H2H?

5. It's a little unfair that I've been on the defensive side lately soooooo: My team will track down your team. I've already talked about bucky's stealth skill but lets talk about batman. He was able to catch superman by surprise who... we all know outranks wolverine when it comes to superior senses.

Batman is also capable of fighting nobody with one arm also resisting his sonic blasts. And just to add a few more pictures... remeber when I said bruce has enhanced hearing in his cowl? I was wrong... he created an enhanced lenses and earpiece he wears all the time.

The pic above is batman with thermal zoom vision. The pic below is batman beating multiple talons while injured.

Now about bucky:

His arm deflects bullets. The pic before is him taking out a group of ninja's and wolverine without adamantium.

#13 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicace3 said:

1. Batman has dodged a kill shot before and this was in the Batman and robin comics. After running several meters He throws cinder bock in someone's face, carries him and throws him through a building. If you think batman is gonna get tired it's gonna be a loooooong time.

That's a very nice feat. Although he admits that it was only the fact that he got lucky that saves his life. I'm impressed with his durability and pain tolerance, so I'll concede that wearing him down will be an extremely slow process. But if my ninjas use their stealth skill properly, then they can get a killshot on him without him being aware of them.

Yes one of the talon's ambushed Bruce and they killed the people who were with Bruce not Bruce at all.

In the scans, Lincoln seems to purposely be killing the people around Bruce first. He's perfectly capable of tagging Bruce once he actually throws a knife at him on the second page, so I have to conclude that he would have been able to hurt Bruce when he first attacked if he'd wanted to do so. And regardless, the point was that Bruce is able to be surprised and ambushed, which he was.

2. Yes Bucky isn't on batman's pain tolerance level which is why he keeps his distance. But who's to say he can't avoid the pain by... well dodging whatever they throw at him?

Ambushes and extreme marksmanship. Snake Eyes has tagged Storm Shadow with a thrown weapon, and SS has far better dodging feats than Bucky.

And let's be logical here if you try to waist your time cutting off bucky's arm that will just give enough time for batman and Bucky to strike.

They wouldn't be attacking Bucky with their sole purpose being to cut off his arm. You had brought up Bucky using his arm to block their attacks, so I showed that they can cut through robotic arms. And if someone is cutting off your arm, counterattacking won't be a simple matter, either.

I admit I was mistaken when I said 50's cap was 6 times better than the original cap. He was 3 times faster than cap and was in the 2 ton lifting range. He is 6 time Bucky's stats who is only peak human and yet he was still able to beat him.

Ah, gotcha. It's a good feat, certainly, (both times he's done it). But 50s Cap is very dissimilar to the ninjas. They rely on skill and speed and cutting damage, while he relies on strength and blunt force. 50s Cap has never demonstrated much in the way of skill. But still a solid feat.

And who says you need a vantage point to shoot a sniper? He can easily cover himself someway and since his stealth skill is well developed he won't make a sound. And as usual to add the stealth most sniper rifles has a silencer.

You don't necessarily need a vantage point, but it gives a much better line of sight. If he's just running around with Batman, then his sniper rifle won't help him to see anything, and he won't be able to survey the battlefield for targets. He'll just be able to shoot things he sees from further away, which won't be much of an issue because of stealth and dodging. As far as him hiding and sniping, my point was that without a vantage point, Batman will have to stay close to remain in sight. This gives Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow a much better chance of locating Bucky, since he and Batman wouldn't be dumb enough to split up leaving themselves open to a double team.

3. Yes both ninja's are able to dodge bullets but do they dodge sniper bullets?

I've already posted feats of dodging lasers, and they've dodged fire from a helicopter's chaingun. These are much faster and more powerful than sniper bullets. It's also fully automatic and there are two of them on the chopper.

4. My team can dodge bullets also and well shooting at them will just annoy them.

It's not like they haven't been shot before. Off the top of my head, Deadshot has shot Batman in the New-52 and Crossbones has shot Bucky. They're very good at dodging, but not immune to bullets, especially against very accurate marksman, which is what they're facing here. Neither of them are as good at dodging as Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow, either, and they've never demonstrated bullet-timing speed. SE and SS can react to bullets after they've been fired, so Bucky won't have much luck shooting them. Batman and Bucky haven't demonstrated that level of perception, so they're much more likely to be tagged.

How bout a little H2H?

Yes, please. Just how skilled is Storm Shadow? He can absolutely humiliate trained fighters.

Snake Eyes is no slouch, either. Not only can he keep up with Storm Shadow, he can dominate numerous ninjas without much issue.

5. It's a little unfair that I've been on the defensive side lately soooooo: My team will track down your team. I've already talked about bucky's stealth skill but lets talk about batman. He was able to catch superman by surprise who... we all know outranks wolverine when it comes to superior senses. he created an enhanced lenses and earpiece he wears all the time.

Stealth =/= tracking. I've showed Storm Shadow's Ear That Sees ability which should allow me to track you, and your counter is infrared. But I've already shown both of my ninjas avoiding a robot equipped with infrared and motion sensors, even though they were in a room with the robot while it was hunting them. Infrared isn't going to make much difference. As for the Superman scan, I've heard that Batman used tech to artificially silence his heartbeat and movements. I don't know if that's accurate or not. Can you comment?

Batman is also capable of fighting nobody with one arm also resisting his sonic blasts.

He doesn't really seem to be doing much resisting. He's screaming and being thrown backwards, and Nobody says it'll kill Bruce if he keeps it up.

The pic below is batman beating multiple talons while injured.

He doesn't really defeat those Talons. He takes some hits while escaping to the rooftop, where he uses a hidden chute to escape to the Batcave. He does end up beating the Talons down, but he needs an exosuit and the cave's defenses to do it, neither of which he has in this battle.

Now about bucky: His arm deflects bullets. The pic before is him taking out a group of ninja's and wolverine without adamantium.

Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow both defeating more ninjas than that, and he pretty much kicks Logan a few times while he's already down. His second fight with Wolverine is more impressive, although he has the advantage of surprise and prep in that one, and Logan's damage soak is severely underwritten. Bucky's good at h2h, very good, but he can't block katanas without his shield. They can cut through his flesh and his bionic arm, so he'll have an extremely difficult time defending himself. And he'll have a hard time keeping distance and dodging when both of his opponents are faster than he is.

#14 Edited by comicace3 (5999 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok imma make this short since I am replying on my phone: 1. Storm shadow has humiliated skilled fighters but we all know batman is way more than that. He is an expert. He has studied 127 martial arts and has basically created his own style of fighting. Show me a person snake eyes has fought before that can be equivalent to batman and I'll be convinced. And you didn't say much about batman and the ear piece that enhanced his hearing, thus being able to notice someone is sneaking into his house. As we all know batman has some kind of security in his house and it should've gone off which proves the talons aren't novices when it comes to stealth. And I never said Bruce defeated those talons he just fought them long enough for Alfred to reach the batcave. And about batman and nobody. That sonic blast was powerful enough melt a normal humans inside. Resisting that is still pretty cool. About superman. Now I'm not sure if he actually used that artificial heartbeat silencer , but its already apart of his batsuit and remember superman also has super smell and still wasn't able to detect him. 2. Bucky's arm has been able to releases a shockwave causing everyone to just either be shocked by and electric charge or fly back because of the blast. If the ninjas get too close then they get electrocuted. That's pretty much all I have to say for him.... But you forgot that his sniper rifle will have a silencer and will be much more quite than the machine guns. My team has also fought ninjas before so it's nothing new if your team has done the same. If batman stays close to Bucky when he surveys the location he can also hide. It won't be much problem. But my team is also looking for your team and shouldn't be hard to shoot a sniper bullet while running. If I'm correct Buck has shot a bullet that hit someone's gun causing it to explode. And note the gun was well hidden. I'll show you a pic.

#15 Edited by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicace3 said:

1. Storm shadow has humiliated skilled fighters but we all know batman is way more than that. He is an expert. He has studied 127 martial arts and has basically created his own style of fighting. Show me a person snake eyes has fought before that can be equivalent to batman and I'll be convinced.

Their best feats are probably their fights against each other, honestly. But in addition to that, one or both of them has defeated: Firefly, a ninja who's spent his career killing other ninjas (SE has beaten him more than once), Snake Eyes' apprentice Kamakura, (both have done it, SS even when Kamakura had backup), a hunter-killer droid, a cyborg-enhanced bullet-timer with an energy sword that cuts through anything, Slice and Dice who are telepathically linked ninjas (Snake Eyes took them down solo), groups of killer robots, Cobra death squads, teams of GI Joes, Sei Tin (a ninja master), trained Yakuza hitmen, and lots and lots and lots of fodder. Also, Storm Shadow knows nerve strikes:

And you didn't say much about batman and the ear piece that enhanced his hearing, thus being able to notice someone is sneaking into his house. As we all know batman has some kind of security in his house and it should've gone off which proves the talons aren't novices when it comes to stealth.

But Talons have also been able to ambush him, as I've shown with the Lincoln March encounter. Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow are totally silent, enhanced hearing or not. Even against cybernetically enhanced enemies their stealth skills are sufficient. Without any indicators of just how sensitive the earpiece is, I don't see it overcoming my team's skill. I hadn't even thought of it as an enhancer, since all it seems to do is function as a radio link to Alfred.

And about batman and nobody. That sonic blast was powerful enough melt a normal humans inside. Resisting that is still pretty cool.

"If I keep it up, you can literally shake yourself to death from the inside." As I recall, Nobody didn't keep using the sonic device. It was able to knock Bruce down, and then Nobody took it hand-to-hand, assuming I'm remembering the right instance.

But you forgot that his sniper rifle will have a silencer and will be much more quite than the machine guns.

I'm not sure why this makes much of a difference. The bullets won't go any faster, and it won't help him to detect the Arashikage, so I don't think it's really a gamebreaker.

But my team is also looking for your team and shouldn't be hard to shoot a sniper bullet while running. If I'm correct Buck has shot a bullet that hit someone's gun causing it to explode. And note the gun was well hidden. I'll show you a pic.

Here ya go:

Bucky's marksmanship was never in question. The fact is that my characters are fast enough to react to the bullet itself, so no matter how accurately it's placed they can simply deflect it. Because the sniper rifle gives Bucky a ranged advantage, Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow will use cover as much as possible to keep him from getting a clear line of sight. With the ease they avoid bullets, I don't think they'll be defeated in a long-distance match.

#16 Edited by comicace3 (5999 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire: Ok so basically your saying nothing can touch your ninja's and I'm saying if anything does to touch my team they will brush it off and keep fighting? Hmmm a weird debate this is.... Ok Let me just end it hear.. Batman knows every nerve strike in the body also and I'm not sure about Bucky I'm gonna think a little creatively and say batman teaches Bucky a few nerve strikes while they are on the move. A little H2H without weapons seems to be fair because we all know Bucky will use his arm and batman will use every kind of batarangs in his belt ( cryogenic, explosive, etc.) a batman has a big belt. Batman has trained in ninjitsu and his fighting style is and idiosyncratic movement whole bunch of fighting styles. He is on the list of the 10 best martial artists in the DC universe ( If I'm wrong correct me) and is basically the Bruce lee of DC. Bucky is able to stalemate Cap. America of the 50's and If I'm correct when you take the SSS your body becomes a perfect fighting machine. Look at the Original cap. Both our teammates are formidable at stealth.... So should we let them vote?

#17 Posted by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

@CadenceV2:

I'll take "Your Staff is Broken." I'll use it to destroy Bucky's Shield and Batman's 3 of Standard Gear.

I"m surprised you didn't destroy Bucky's arm. That would be hilarious.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#18 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: Thought about it, but I hate debating against Cap's shield.

@comicace3: Voting sounds good to me! Cadence was planning to open it up pretty soon, anyway.

#19 Posted by joewell (6436 posts) - - Show Bio

I vote for Esquire, barely

#20 Edited by tomlikesfries (4694 posts) - - Show Bio

Going with Esquire. Dude, you're one of the greatest debaters I've seen around here lately. You've just earned a follow.

Comicace also did a sweet job. Nice debate.

#21 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@tomlikesfries said:

Going with Esquire. Dude, you're one of the greatest debaters I've seen around here lately. You've just earned a follow.

Comicace also did a sweet job. Nice debate.

Thanks for the kind words! I can think of plenty of people better than I am, but I try my best. Thanks for the follow!

#22 Posted by Strafe Prower (11887 posts) - - Show Bio

I give my vote to Esquire. Great debate guys!

#23 Posted by comicace3 (5999 posts) - - Show Bio

@tomlikesfries said:

Going with Esquire. Dude, you're one of the greatest debaters I've seen around here lately. You've just earned a follow.

Comicace also did a sweet job. Nice debate.

I gotta admit he was tough, and thanks for the follow!

#24 Posted by comicace3 (5999 posts) - - Show Bio

Well since I might loose I might as well thank everyone who voted and thank cadence fore putting me in the debates. It's an honor to stalemate him in the debate before and an honor to go against Esquire who was really tough. And now I must leave!

#25 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire: @comicace3: GG Esquire wins.