Venom vs Venom vs miles and Spock

Agent venom vs Eddie Brock vs miles morales and SpOck

New York City roof tops

Unpopulated

Standard equipment

Round 1 standard in chracter

Round 2 bloodlusted, Vulked out

Round 3 bloodlusted, vulked out Pete instead of ock

Bonus round

Venom and carnage vs AV,spOck and miles

Flash

@darkgenex: @highaccuser: reasons?

Flash

Does Flash have GOTG gear? If so, he wins all rounds.

If not...

-Round 1: Eddie Brock

-Round 2: Flash Thompson

-Round 3: Flash Thompson

Do SpOck and Peter have the symbiote? What do you mean by bloodlusted and bulked out Peter?

@jashro44: spell in error I meant flash can vulk out and team are normal as standard just bloodlusted

Agent Venom

Eddie unless Flash uses the symbiote cure. He is faster than flash and can basically match his physical feats.

Brock.

Jmarshmallow

@jashro44: do you think that Spock and miles could win a few? Or more so Pete and miles due to venom sting and Peters new equipment and way of the spider,

Either or Brock or Flash

Not really. Venoms durability is to high and Miles isn't very competent.

Round 1: Brock

Round 2: SpOck and Miles

Round 3: Pete and Miles

Round 4: Anti-Venom solos

Thompson. Brock can't match his healing even though he's faster, and he has faster movement speed at that. Peter has tagged him in combat repeatedly, I see no reason why Flash can't replicate. If Flash can cut Toxin's arm off and Carnage's head off, he can dice up Eddie. And when Eddie had Venom he never had that healing Eugene has shown. Feats aren't interchangeable, Eugene will outlast Eddie. I give Eugene 6-7/10 in a straight fight with Brock.

Symbiote serum means Eugene hardly breaks a sweat if he's got it.

@granitesoldier :)

@strider92: Av stands for Agent venom sorry for confusion

@laflux: See above!

Eddie is not that impressive in the combat speed department. Even if he is, it's not like he uses it. Peter has danced around Juggernaut and Eddie, supposedly faster, got smacked around by him in Madness. Either he isn't as fast, or he's too nuts to use his speed. Not to mention he's gotten beaten up by Daredevil (also slower than Peter) and tagged by the Jury members. Eddie's movement speed is impressive, but combatively he's no better than Flash in my opinion.

Based on that Flash can tag him, and considering he prefers blades (especially against other symbiotes) and he's cut through more powerful symbiotes I see no reason why Flash can't tag and cut through Eddie.

Peter is faster than flash so him tagging Eddie doesn't prove flash can tag him so easily. And its not like Eddie can't soak hits from flash either. He's soaked wolverines claws (even had his hand cut off IIRC), no sold hits from Peter, taken hits from professor hulk, etc. And Eddie isn't that much weaker than Eugene is either.

I don't see how SpOck and Miles win round 2. Miles is going to die pretty easily IMO, and I don't think SpOck can really hurt the venoms. Peter has a better chance due to cryo pellets but I still don't see him winning either personally.

I am unaware of Venom vs Daredevil ,when did this happen so I could take a look- (Peter has lost to Daredevil before but that's hardly a fair reflection). I would agree that Brock doesn't use his speed rather than being slow, as he has Blitzed Peter before and Ben Reilly said he was just as fast as he was. Him taking blows is mostly because of his innate durability, sadism and penchuant for toying around (i.e being nuts).

So yeah, I'd agree that Brock isn't desrciably faster than Brock in combat, but only because he chooses to be. The same goes for Carnage too, hence why I think Flash blitzing him isn't quite as impressive as other liken it to be.

I agree with the consensus of Brock vs Flash 6-7/10- I was mostly trolling. Flash's versatility and healing has been rounded out alot more than Brock's, which trumps the latters Strength and Striking power advantages.

Granted Miles is the most inexperienced but in the case of bloodlust most experience gets thrown out the window. As the need to kill their opponent clouds their judgement and stops them using their full potential. Now if this were Morals Off I would agree with you as that is the most effective any character can be ie: all the skill/experience and none of the mercy. However both Brock and Flash tend to tank damage or simply don't have the reflexes to avoid it. For example Flash has been tagged by character like Death Adder and Jack O'Lantern. Regardless of whether this is a lack of speed or a lack of motivation to avoid said attack ie: having a healing factor allowing him to shrug off the attack is beside the point. Both Brock and Flash have a habit of tanking damage rather than avoiding it.

This is a very bad thing in this case. Miles isn't as experienced and couldn't hope to match either of these guys if their heads were clear. Here however everyone is basically feral thanks to bloodlust. Combine that with Venom Sting which has been shown to one-shot Ultimate Venom, Ultimate Omega Red and Ultimate Green Goblin who has durability feats that are equal or quite possibly exceed those displayed by Flash and Brock. Neither of them is shrugging off a Venom Sting from Miles who has used his Venom Sting when angered (see the Venom arc) and because they have no knowledge of it dodging it wouldn't even cross their minds not that it would even if they did thanks to bloodlust.

@jashro44: Peter is faster than Flash, and so is Kaine by feats...but Flash has always webbed or smothered them to hold them to hit them and his feats don't put him that far beneath them. I fail to see why that wouldn't work against Brock, especially since Brock is not an evasive fighter. Like I said he squared off against Juggernaut and chose to soak hits when he is obviously faster. Not to mention he got tagged easily by Daredevil.

Flash also has more impressive striking than Peter, considering he actually hurt Carnage, Toxin, Rulk, and Ironclad who's taken hits from Hulk.

Eddie grew back a hand, but that doesn't mean he could take a beheading. Flash has a better damage soak and better healing, and better output. And even if Eddie is faster in combat, he's not consistently smart enough to use it.

@laflux: It was in 'Fall from Grace', a Daredevil arc. It's been like a decade since i read it but I remember it because I was dumbstruck haha.

I know you give Flash the edge, we've discussed it at length. And I knew you were stirring the pot haha.

Eh, we have different definitions on bloodlust so I'll leave that part alone. I personally just think bloodlust means one is out for blood but I guess we should be going by @comicsrulebutdbzdoes2 definition of bloodlust.

I don't think anyones durability is greater than Eddie or Flashes personally. Ultimate venom maybe but he isn't a physical being. And Brocks has some pretty solid pain tolerance, which I feel is going to get him far. That and the venom sting has at times been tanked by less than the people you mentioned as well. Anyways though I don't see Miles lasting long because he just isn't that competent. You're right about brock and Flash getting tagged because they can take damage but Miles tries to avoid damage yet he's failed quite a bit and against people slower than Eddie or flash. I see flash cutting his head off and Eddie shoving tendrils down Miles throat and just leaving him to choke on a tendril or something.

Ironclad is a bit of a Jobber. Classic Cage knocked him out, who was only really as strong as Spider-Man.

Peter and kaine lack the strength to hurt Flash, which is something Brock doesn't really lack. HIs feats are comparable to flashes I would argue in terms of strength. He's manhandled peter many times just like Flash has. The daredevil fight is PIS, Brock has also matched the speed of ben reily, and has literally blitzed spider-man on panel before. He's caught bullets with his tendrils and his body, etc. As for his fight with juggernaut, he can soak hits from flash so I don't see why that matters. Brock was smiling the whole time while juggernaut pummeled him so his pain tolerance and durability is clearly as good as Flashes.

He used his combat speed when they fought as anti-venom, I don't see why he wouldn't use it now. If he sees flashes arm heading to his head he is going to move. I don't think Flashes durability is better. His damage output is better but Eddie can fall back on his camouflage. I don't recall Flash showing camouflage.

@laflux: After the fact, yeah, but then again Thor jobs a lot too and people still consider him legit. Flash didn't KO him, but he took hits from him, and he's consistently been a pretty heavy hitter which was more my point. I probably used him in the wrong argument since my mind moves faster than I can text.

Still working weekends, huzzah!

@granitesoldier: Hence why I said "a bit" lol.

Hope you get off soon :)

@jashro44: He was far more powerful as Anti-Venom, so unless he showed the same speed as Venom I don't see how it's interchangeable. And there's the fact Flash tagged him as Anti-Venom, who's faster, so I don't see why he couldn't here. If we call Daredevil PIS, then tanking hits from Juggernaut is PIS when Carnage routinely manhandled him. Not to mention Flash's outings against Carnage have always gone far better then Eddie's, so while that isn't definitive of who wins it does provide bit of a litmus test.

Flash hasn't been KO'd by blunt force, while several foes have been far stronger than Eddie. So even if Eddie's durability is better (not saying it is) he doesn't have the output to KO Thompson. Meanwhile Eugene's blades can get the job done, and considering he's tagged Eddie as Anti-Venom and Toxin (both faster symbiotes) I think he can land the blows too.

@granitesoldier: @jashro44: I tend to use bloodlusted to describe going all out looking for win maybe not exactly kill but just going all out for example when spidey fought kingpin and no morals kinda applies aswell

@granitesoldier: I personally don't see the hits taken from juggernaught to be PiS given the fact the symbiote from both flash and Eddie has tanked hits from hulk, red hulk and thing it's been pretty consistent just like wolverine that t can tank hits from class 100s

@comicsrulebutdbzdoes2: Feats aren't interchangeable though. Eddie has had wide fluctuations, so I'm showing his highs and his lows.

He wasn't. Hand books gave him the same stats he had as venom. He just no longer had any of his weaknesses and the ability to cure people. Considering Eddie has defeated carnage on his own, and iIRC Flash only beat carnage with prep I disagree Flashes outings are better. You can call the juggernaut example PIS, I brought up other showings which suggest he can take hits from flash.

Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it can't happen. Flash has fought some strong foes, but he hasn't fought all the same foes as Eddie. He hasn't decapitated them, and iIRC he had a time hard time tagging anti-venom when he was weakened....

This is my definition. And I think you meant to tag out @strider92.

@jashro44: He wasn't prepped at all for Carnage in Minimum Carnage, and held his own quite well before Scarlet showed up. Of all the times Eddie fought Carnage he either had Spider-Man's help or ended up getting smacked around. Even if he had one comeuppance, that doesn't balance every time he got smacked around.

And Thompson was a shell of what he is now when he fought Anti-Venom, who weakens and kills symbiotes, and Eddie wasn't weak. He actually picked Thompson out of a crowd and attacked Thompson first if memory serves. So considering it was back when the suit was constantly drugged and Flash and Venom didn't like each other, him having a good showing against Anti-Venom is all the more impressive.

I was referring to carnage USA when he beat carnage. He actually never got smacked around in every encounter. He needed Peters help in carnages first story, he smacked carnage around at the end of maximum carnage (Eddie was weakened, Carnages mind was extra messed up though), he got BFR'd in the carnage vs venom series, and then came back and beat carnage by pushing him in front of a train. Eddies record isn't actually that bad against carnage.

It wasn't a good showing for Eugene IMO. He got danced around and Yes Eddie was weakened from curing people in spider island (he had a hard time standing just before attacking Flash and needed to grab the podium). Brock was dancing around him until the symbiote tried rebonding with anti-venom (which is weird because that shouldn't be able to happen).

Gallery

@jashro44: It may have been an immediate exertion, but he seemed fine afterward. And again the context of Flash's power is important there as well, since Flash is far from how powerful he becomes, and Anti-Venom weakens Venom just by touch.

Carnage USA had prep, but not Minimum.

Eddie was fine at the end of Maximum Carnage, but Cletus also didn't fight back. He kicked Eddie once, which rocked him. Carnage Unleashed Eddie got slapped around. He pushed Carnage in front of a train, sure, but there's no trains here and he's been smacked around in every straight fight.

Eugene fights smarter, and that will matter in their exchange.

He burns symbiotes with a touch but I don't remember if he weakens them.

Thats not true either. Cletus did fight back and he was losing. There is a lot more to the fight than you have said:

Gallery

And no Eddie was not fine at the end of maximum carnage. He had been tortured continually with sonic attacks during the event and was still recovering.

I don't really agree Eugene fights smarter. Eddie uses the environment. I remember one time he lured spider-man into a room and gassed him. I remember another time he used the environment to beat carnage by pushing him in the train, etc.

@jashro44: He was freed for quite a time if memory serves before he fought Carnage, and Carnage was clearly weakened on top of that, besides being completely unstable at the time. So, yes, Carnage "fought back" but when Carnage is healthy (like in Carnage Unleashed) he pushes Brock around. I'm not convinced of Brock being weakened, as this fight is several days after escaping the Statue of Liberty I believe. Brock leaves commenting he needs to tend his wounds before returning to the fight, so I'd say some time passed. He may not have been 100%, but he was in better shape than Carnage.

Brock has fought smart, but he's got more showings of brawling it out. Juggernaut is a case in point. And the train thing wasn't so much a planned tactical move as happenstance. He waded into the Symbiote Slayers as Toxin and was getting the beat down. Flash actually surveys and uses the environment, which in the same encounter he was using ambush and guerilla moves and actually saved Eddie.

I don't believe there was a day of passage even. Brock may have been in better shape but thats a different debate for another day. The point was he really didn't do that bad against carnage.

Eddie was a bit of a jobber as carnage and I never really liked that portrayal, it could have something to do with the toxin symbiote affecting his personality differently. The juggernaut showing we have discussed and if you are going to call that showing PIS I really don't like the fact your taking the bad parts of the showing while dismissing the good parts. And the same can be said for Flash really. He tanks unnecessary damage too....

@jashro44: I haven't dismissed anything of Eddie's. I've admitted his strengths several times. He is faster, he does have impressive damage soak. However I am also calling into account his common showings of not doing the bright thing, and taking hits instead of using speed and fighting smart. Eddie taking Juggs' hits and continuing to fight is PIS, not how he fought. A showing can be PIS even if the character is still acting normal. He fought as he normally did against Daredevil, that's not what was PIS. Getting manhandled by DD is. Frankly that's the problem with Eddie's Venom, he was rife with PIS in the 90s. So I'm looking at the highs and lows and considering the average. One of the few guys he had stable showings with was Carnage, and when both were healthy Carnage usually got the better of him. Flash takes damage too, but Flash has a lot of context in his early showings (Remender's run) and later takes a lot of hits protecting Mania (never been a fan of hers, not that that matters). Brock's showings as Toxin aren't stellar, but they're not jobbing. During Savage Six Flash clearly prepped (incendiary rounds is my guess from the artwork) and in the Toxic Arc Thompson was obviously outclassed and losing the fight (despite a good showing) and only won because he always carries the serum (which is the only real way he could have won).

So coming full circle, even if we assume durability being equal, Flash has better output, healing, and on the average fights a bit smarter than the faster and arguably stronger Brock. Both are going to take hits, neither are the most elusive fighters like Peter. However Flash will keep going after Eddie succumbs, and given that even in this scenario there's Miles and SpOck I think the healing will keep Flash in the fight longer. It's an attrition fight, and the guy who can take the hits while dishing them out will win those typically.

I don't really like the idea of taking one part of a showing especially when that showing is a negative aspect. I just feel like there could be a better example is all. I'm not really going to go much more into the carnage thing because flash was also outclassed by carnage. My main point is I don't think Eddies record is worst than Flashes. I mean neither really can match carnage physically (Flash might be able to surpass his strength when vulked out admittedly) but for the most part Eddie didn't really do poorly except in there first fight. He even has a win by outsmarting carnage.

I don't brock is really the same with the toxin symbiote for some reason. I can only assume it has to do with a different symbiote being attached to him. I don't think attrition is the only factor. You can argue Eddie wont dodge Flashes attacks, but he's going to be getting more hits in IMO.

With that said I think I should agree to disagree. I need to cut back on my debating a bit due to my schedule.

Aw what? School? Work? Both? That sucks, I always enjoy reading your arguments haha.

@granitesoldier: School. I started university a few weeks ago....I'm falling behind in my work already, which is kind of a problem. I have a few challenge a viners which is why I am sticking around for a bit.

And thanks man. It was great debating with you though.

It was the most fun I've had in a debate in a long time. I don't get to debate Flash much, so I had a great amount of enjoyment for it. Plus it was a pleasure to step in the ring with someone of your caliber, usually we fall on the same side of the argument.

Much fun, much respect. Good luck at school, and we'll be here.

@granitesoldier: Thanks man!

Bruce

@granitesoldier: Is the Daredevil issue you're referring to "fall from grace chapter 4"? If so I read that issue and I don't recall Daredevil outright beating Venom. He had another character with him and this character(don't remember who) had a laser that was capable of harming Brock. Anyway after this guy stopped Brock from attacking DD, DD convinced Brock to go back too San Francisco without much of a fight.

@comicsrulebutdbzdoes2: round one Brock round two Brock round three Brock antivemon