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#1 Edited by Esquire (3827 posts) - - Show Bio

Tournament Rules:

§ All parties involved in a debate must state they are ready for voting before votes are taken into consideration. Meaning anyone who votes prior to this point will be discounted.

§ Personal attack are prohibited. At any point, if you insult your fellow debater(s), and they feel personally insulted, I will ask you apologize for the jest. I'm not talking about joking around, or meaningless jabs at one another, I'm talking about over the line insulting and ridicule. If someone is offended, either apologize, or under the even someone really crosses a line, they will be flagged and kicked out of the tournament.

§ Feats must be backed up with scans, or at the very least sourced. For example, if you know something happened and what issue it's from, but don't have the scan, just source the issue. If you can find the scan, great. However, if you are just pulling information off a wiki, and can't find what issue it's actually from, then as far as I'm concerned it is irrelevant. Even sourcing the Story Arc would be fine.

§ Follow the character rules, battle rules, and the scenarios given.

§ As always, respect each other.

Larfleeze

Beta Ray Bill

Quasar (Wendell Vaughn)

vs.

Thanos

Adam Warlock w/ (Soul Gem)

Silver Surfer

Battle Conditions:

  • Random Encounter
  • No Prep
  • Morals On
  • Bloodlust Off
  • Win by Death, KO, Incapacitation
  • No BFR
  • Standard Gear
  • Start 1 Mile Apart

Location: Space

Perks:

To me! To me!: Two Street Level Plus characters may join your team.

Spotty Shields: Each of your characters is unaffected by the first, and only the first, attack to hit them.

My Friend Uatu: The Watcher gives you total and complete knowledge on your opponents.

Let's Think This Through: Your team gets 30 minutes before the match to strategize only. They are given the names of their opponents and a basic list of powers only. Knowledge from previous encounters applies as well.

Diplomatic Solution: One of your characters takes the first 90 seconds of the battle to attempt to reconcile their differences with one of their opponents. Both combatants aren't able to attack or be attacked for those 90 seconds.

#2 Edited by Killemall (18208 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire: Thank you much appreciated :)

Also i am totally grabbing: "Let's Think This Through: Your team gets 30 minutes before the match to strategize They are given the names of their opponents and a basic list of powers only. Knowledge from previous encounters applies as well." Perk.

A small question, can i get silver surfer to hand Thanos a small portion of his power cosmic during said 30 mins of prep?

EDIT: changed the perk.

#3 Posted by Esquire (3827 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

A small question, can i get silver surfer to hand Thanos a small portion of his power cosmic during said 30 mins of prep?

No, strategy only. You'll have to wait until the battle begins to try that.

#4 Posted by Killemall (18208 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire: Dammit :p. Can i change my perk :(, i guess not.

#5 Posted by Esquire (3827 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: Lol, no reason you can't. It doesn't matter since you haven't actually started the debate. Changing is fine for now!

#6 Posted by dondave (33565 posts) - - Show Bio

This looks like it will be a good debate, good luck to both of you

Online
#7 Edited by Killemall (18208 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire: Oh cool cool, i want Watcher is my homie and we go for beer together perk then ;)

@dondave said:

This looks like it will be a good debate, good luck to both of you

Thank you :)

#8 Posted by Killemall (18208 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay:I am a little busy with my work so i might be a little slow in replying, however, i would still love to have this debate. Not sure if you wanted to go first, or not, you are welcome to make an opening statement, or if you want i can go first.

Just let me know how you want to proceed and this should be an awesome debate :)

Thanos/ Warlock combo is gonna be a pain for you to counter :p i assure you that much :p

#9 Posted by Floopay (8578 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@Floopay:I am a little busy with my work so i might be a little slow in replying, however, i would still love to have this debate. Not sure if you wanted to go first, or not, you are welcome to make an opening statement, or if you want i can go first.

Just let me know how you want to proceed and this should be an awesome debate :)

Thanos/ Warlock combo is gonna be a pain for you to counter :p i assure you that much :p

I can assure you that Beta Ray Bill and Quasar will be formidable!

@Esquire:

I'll take the "Let's think this Through!" perk.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#10 Edited by Floopay (8578 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall:

Alright, now your team has knowledge, but my team has prep for strategy.

This is going to be very useful, I don't recall Beta Ray Bill ever encountering Thanos.

Quasar has a pretty decent amount of knowledge on your team, and will brief my team on them and they will come up with their tactics.

The Opening Technique

Quasar

First thing's first. Quasar will bubble off Adam Warlock.

It's not uncommon, he's done it before. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it's one of this go to moves.

He's even done it to Thanos and his squad. These bubbles held off an assault from sever Avengers, including Hercules, Thor (or was it Masterson at the time?), Colossus, Wonder Man, and a few other power houses.

Quasar will then move on to keep the Silver Surfer at bay.

Beta Ray Bill

Beta Ray Bill will instantly barrage both Thanos and the Silver Surfer with lightning attacks, and hammer throws. His job is to merely distract them for the nano-microsecond it takes for Quasar to get his shield up around Adam. From here, Beta Ray Bill will join Quasar in assaulting the Silver Surfer.

Now then:

I know Beta Ray Bill has lost to Surfer already, but he's going to have backup from Quasar, and I believe the two together will stand up to him pretty handily, and should make a pretty short battle out of him (oh, I know, how dare I say such a thing :P). However, Beta Ray Bill has made a fool out of Stardust in battle, and I know Surfer is on a different level than Stardust, but it's still pretty impressive.

That orb, IIRC, holds the souls of a bunch of Korbonites. You can see Bill is fast enough to block an energy beam with his hammer here.

Stardust lets loose an all-out blast against Bill, and he takes stands his ground.

Beta Ray Bill UNLOADS back at Stardust....

Lets just go ahead and pin Stardust to the planet....with her own weapon...

Blasts down at her, and then is INSTANTLY back on top of her....

Larfleeze

Larfleeze is on Thanos detail at FIRST. However, his constructs will swarm the battlefield and go for multiple members as the battle continues. They shouldn't take long to get up, as he's conjured armies before when he's had to.

As we agreed, the only starting construct is Big Larfleeze. The same one that held off dozens of Green Lanterns simultaneously. He will charge Thanos.

However, he will almost instantly be joined by a small army of constructs. He can conjure these things in mass

Larfleeze himself is no small task to take on, the Guardians had a hard enough time with him, and he one or two of them within his arsenal btw.

Before I hear the argument, no, these constructs can't be controlled or absorb via energy manipulation. He was able to take down the Controllers and they were helpless to stop him.

Over and above this, if he really is in danger, he can recall his entire army and power himself to godlike levels:

These constructs can flicker in and out of existence, making them extremely difficult to put down or even tag

Larfleeze gives a huge advantage here. He has numbers, and over and above this, because of these numbers, it's going to be extremely difficult to focus on my powerhouses, which allows me some leeway in terms of time. I got much more coming, but this is my opener.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#11 Posted by pooty (10749 posts) - - Show Bio

Man....I wish I knew anything about Larfleeze

#12 Posted by Floopay (8578 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty said:

Man....I wish I knew anything about Larfleeze

I haven't read any of Larfleeze since Agent Orange first came out, but he was a really really cool character. I don't really care for DC at all, but even I really enjoyed reading him. I'd recommend it, I hear he's in New-52 as well, but I havent' read any of that.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#13 Posted by Killemall (18208 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty said:

Man....I wish I knew anything about Larfleeze

I dont think you will get to learn a lot about Larfleeze in this thread because he gets neutralized in first few seconds of the match, by our beloved Adam Warlock :) just say tuned.

@Floopay: Hehe awesome opening argument as expected, however, as expected you under-estimated the power of Warlock ;) Thanos here has the best stats, the most difficult person to fight here is Warlock.

Larfleeze is good and a powerhouse, but will be taken down in seconds, because Adam Warlock can simply rip the very soul out of his body and leave him dead.

One of the most awesome ability soul gem grants is soul manipulation. Few counts of Soul Manipulation from Adam Warlock

Strange Tales 180: Rips Kray-Tor's soul out of his body

Power of Warlock 11: Adam Warlock rips the soul out of an entire army of Magus

Before you try to counter, no there is no possible defense against the power of soul gem, as its 1/6 of the infinity gauntlet and gives one a complete control of soul. The same thing was tested by Mephisto in Hades, where Mephisto has the best control of soul. They fought to decide who has better control of Souls, Mephisto in Hades or Adam Warlock, and the battle ended with Warlock sounding defeating Mephisto, Mephisto's exact words.

Adam Warlock/ Silver Surfer: Resurrection Adam Warlock beats Mephisto in Hades, awesome.

Had it been a random encounter yes i would not expect Warlock to rip the soul out of Larfleeze, given i have complete knowledge of character, Thanos and Warlock would both know how powerful and dangerous Larfleeze is, Thanos can convince Warlock to use the ability to soul gem. Thats 1 move defeat for Larfleeze.

@Killemall:

Alright, now your team has knowledge, but my team has prep for strategy.

This is going to be very useful, I don't recall Beta Ray Bill ever encountering Thanos.

Quasar has a pretty decent amount of knowledge on your team, and will brief my team on them and they will come up with their tactics.

The Opening Technique

Quasar

First thing's first. Quasar will bubble off Adam Warlock.

It's not uncommon, he's done it before. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it's one of this go to moves.

He's even done it to Thanos and his squad. These bubbles held off an assault from sever Avengers, including Hercules, Thor (or was it Masterson at the time?), Colossus, Wonder Man, and a few other power houses.

Quasar will then move on to keep the Silver Surfer at bay.

Even in the very scan you posted Thanos actually breaks the shield with an easy blast.

Furthermore, thats not the first time his shields have been broken.

One of the instance above is non canon and from JLAvengers just wanted to put that out. And this instance doesnt even include Gladiator breaking his shield merely by flexing.

Moreover, his energy bubble or shield is useless against Surfer can he can phase through it, as done so by Vision. This isnt Quasar but Marvel Boy, however they both have exact same powers and the same quantum band.

Beta Ray Bill

Beta Ray Bill will instantly barrage both Thanos and the Silver Surfer with lightning attacks, and hammer throws. His job is to merely distract them for the nano-microsecond it takes for Quasar to get his shield up around Adam. From here, Beta Ray Bill will join Quasar in assaulting the Silver Surfer.

Would have been an effective technique, but problem here for you is Adam Warlock , Thanos and Silver Surfer all of them have shields.

Adam Shielding him and GOTG

Now then:

I know Beta Ray Bill has lost to Surfer already, but he's going to have backup from Quasar, and I believe the two together will stand up to him pretty handily, and should make a pretty short battle out of him (oh, I know, how dare I say such a thing :P). However, Beta Ray Bill has made a fool out of Stardust in battle, and I know Surfer is on a different level than Stardust, but it's still pretty impressive.

That orb, IIRC, holds the souls of a bunch of Korbonites. You can see Bill is fast enough to block an energy beam with his hammer here.

Stardust lets loose an all-out blast against Bill, and he takes stands his ground.

Beta Ray Bill UNLOADS back at Stardust....

Lets just go ahead and pin Stardust to the planet....with her own weapon...

Blasts down at her, and then is INSTANTLY back on top of her....

Your team is going to be one man down before any of my team mates are KOed. And Beta Ray Bill is going to have his hands full with Warlock if he dare goes one to one there. Surfer and Thanos both are going to grind him to dust in a straight up encounter. He simply is outmatched against either Surfer and more so against Thanos.

Larfleeze

Larfleeze is on Thanos detail at FIRST. However, his constructs will swarm the battlefield and go for multiple members as the battle continues. They shouldn't take long to get up, as he's conjured armies before when he's had to.

As we agreed, the only starting construct is Big Larfleeze. The same one that held off dozens of Green Lanterns simultaneously. He will charge Thanos.

However, he will almost instantly be joined by a small army of constructs. He can conjure these things in mass

Larfleeze himself is no small task to take on, the Guardians had a hard enough time with him, and he one or two of them within his arsenal btw.

Before I hear the argument, no, these constructs can't be controlled or absorb via energy manipulation. He was able to take down the Controllers and they were helpless to stop him.

Over and above this, if he really is in danger, he can recall his entire army and power himself to godlike levels:

These constructs can flicker in and out of existence, making them extremely difficult to put down or even tag

Larfleeze gives a huge advantage here. He has numbers, and over and above this, because of these numbers, it's going to be extremely difficult to focus on my powerhouses, which allows me some leeway in terms of time. I got much more coming, but this is my opener.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

Honestly the only thing i have to worry about Larfleeze is the giant big construct he starts off with. I dont see how he could possibly counter soul gem and given all 3 are energy manipulators, of fairly decent order, either of them can take out the construct.

Furthermore, the controller instance isnt a valid defense against their constructs not being manipulated by energy manipulators, Sinestro has fought and beaten the Controllers too , would you say the same about Sinestro Corps. Doomsday has fought and beaten Martian Manhunter, would you say he has answer to intangibility, and telepathy? Thor has fought and beaten Surfer, would you say he has answer to matter manipulation?

Unless somebody uses and fails to do it, these constructs are energy constructs and i see no reason why they cant be simply manipulated.

#14 Posted by Floopay (8578 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall:

Well, if Adam phases out of that shield the man to take him on would be Quasar. He has already proven he can absorb the energy right out of the Soul Gem, and should realistically be able to counter it.

Quasar

First of all, the Gladiator feat isn't worth using, as he didn't create a shield, he created a construct, and even then it wasn't at full strength

Over and above this, neither Silver Surfer or Adam Warlock have an answer to Quasar draining them, or even a good portion of their energy:

Quasar vs. the Power Cosmic

Quasar in the Annihilators

As you can see he, he can use the power of others to reinforce his constructs as well. He was able to draw power from everyone on his team in order to create a barrier to protect them from a blast from Genis-Vell (I think Genis-Vell) that threatened to harm or maim these guys. So I'm assuming it was a pretty powerful blast. As the Silver Surfer is in this group, it can be assumed that the Power Cosmic was one of the energy sources he was drawing from.

Right here it's revealed it's in the same spectrum as his quantum effects

And the final instance I will use is in his fight with the Silver Surfer. He throws this fight btw.

Armors up for defense

Is sucking energy from the Silver Surfer the whole fight.

Quasar vs. Adam Warlock

Quasar has already drained Adam Warlock with the Soul Gem of his power, there's literally nothing to stop him from doing it again, even if Adam breaks through the shields or uses his intangibility, Quasar will drain him again as he did before

The more recent versions of Adam Warlock are still susceptible, as proven in his fight with Vulcan.

Larfleeze

It's doubtful anyone will be absorbing or manipulating his constructs at all. Nor is Adam Warlock's magic going to be of much uses. Not only can he resist it, he can absorb and manipulate both regular energy and magical energy, as can his constructs. Neat little trick eh?

As far as shields go, well, I've already proven that any energy Adam and Surfer provide can be absorb by either Quasar or Larfleeze's constructs, or even Larfleeze himself. Magic is going to be ill advised, as it will only serve to empower Larfleeze as well.

Beta Ray Bill

No change, same tactics.

Overall

It'll be a good match, but I stand by my original tactics. As you see, Quasar can use your own teams energy supplies against them (as he's done on multiple occasions, which I've shown) to empower his own constructs. Larfleeze can do much the same, except his powers and abilities extend to magic as well. Additionally, it has already been proven that Adam Warlock and the Soul Gem are susceptible to being drained, and I have a host of energy absorbers at my disposal, plus with my 30 minutes of strategy, I can coordinate which constructs will be being sent out first.

These constructs include telepaths, energy absorbers/manipulators, power houses, tanks, etc. etc. All of which can flicker in and out of reality to avoid being harmed. If any of your team goes down in this fight, Larfleeze can absorb them, and put them back out against your team as a construct as well. Which is a scary concept to any team.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#15 Posted by Killemall (18208 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay said:

@Killemall:

Well, if Adam phases out of that shield the man to take him on would be Quasar. He has already proven he can absorb the energy right out of the Soul Gem, and should realistically be able to counter it.

Why would Adam have to fight Quasar, the fastest one on both group is Silver Surfer (not including Quasar quantum jump) and he is on my side. That pretty much gives me a chance to pick whoever he wants to fight, and the best and perfect person to fight in this battle is Quasar.

Secondly no nor Quasar, nor anyone else has ever manipulated the energy of soul gem, no one has. Quasar tried to absorb Adam Warlock won energy and got one shotted by the soul gem, granted he was distracted, but that doesnt change the fact that soul gem can and has one shotted Quasar.

Quasar

First of all, the Gladiator feat isn't worth using, as he didn't create a shield, he created a construct, and even then it wasn't at full strength

Based on what? Gladiator isnt the only one who has broken Quasar shields. There is the golden alien robot who did so as well.

Avengers Infinity 01

Over and above this, neither Silver Surfer or Adam Warlock have an answer to Quasar draining them, or even a good portion of their energy:

Quasar vs. the Power Cosmic

There is no scan under Quasar vs Power Cosmic , furthermore, Silver Surfer at the very least is just as good energy manipulator as Quasar, given he has manipulated the greatest collection of energy in the universe, the crunch.

The Infinity Cursade 04: Absorbs the power of a star to buff him up

Silver Surfer Volume 3, Issue 103: Surfer absorbs all the blast from Intergalactic Colation, then redirects it to repair a dying sun

The Crunch one is from Annihilation when he fights 2 Priomodial Gods, but will have to look for that scan.

Furthermore, no one has drained Surfer that i know of, unless they are using special machine, and Quasar was drain dry within seconds by Annihilus.

Nova Vol 4, Issue 04

Quasar has no answer to being trapped in the board by Silver Surfer either.

Silver Surfer Volume 3, Issue 122: Traps Legacy (Genis Vell) in his board, he has done so to Jack of Hearts as well

Surfer could very well take on Quasar using matter manipulation, something Quasar has no answer to.

Silver Surfer has extremely powerful molecule manipulation, and can disperse Quasar's for one into nothing but atoms , the first scan shows him doing exactly that to a un-named monster, while the latter scan shows him performing molecule manipulation on a planetary scale, used to justify that he could do this to even someone as durable as Quasar.

Defenders 13 Converts a un-named monster into atom

Silver Surfer Volume 4 Issue 14: Surfer repairs a dying earth

Surfer vs Quasar is going pretty much on one direction.

Quasar in the Annihilators

As you can see he, he can use the power of others to reinforce his constructs as well. He was able to draw power from everyone on his team in order to create a barrier to protect them from a blast from Genis-Vell (I think Genis-Vell) that threatened to harm or maim these guys. So I'm assuming it was a pretty powerful blast. As the Silver Surfer is in this group, it can be assumed that the Power Cosmic was one of the energy sources he was drawing from.

Its not Quasar's ability to manipulate cosmic energy that is being questioned, its his ability to drain someone who is just as good energy manipulator himself, who has the ability to keep absorbing and amping him up with power cosmic, and has just as good ability to drain him dry.

And the final instance I will use is in his fight with the Silver Surfer. He throws this fight btw.

Armors up for defense

Is sucking energy from the Silver Surfer the whole fight.

The fight in Starbrand isnt even work looking because both knew Quasar was destined to lose. Just ignoring this as it doesnt affect the debate.

Quasar vs. Adam Warlock

Quasar has already drained Adam Warlock with the Soul Gem of his power, there's literally nothing to stop him from doing it again, even if Adam breaks through the shields or uses his intangibility, Quasar will drain him again as he did before

The more recent versions of Adam Warlock are still susceptible, as proven in his fight with Vulcan.

The first scan is either misunderstood or misrepresented. At no point did Quasar drain the "soul gem" and at no point in the fight was it shown that he has any answer to it.

Quasar 38: Adam Warlock beats Quasar but he was distracted, still a feat i suppose

The moment Warlock gets one shot from the gem Quasar is flat out.

Secondly, the scan above you posted is from GOTG vol 2, 14, biggest difference here is Adam Warlock doesnt have soul gem, in fact he lost his soul gem when he came back to life during Annihilation Conquest 01

Annihilation Conquest 01: Came back to life with a similar costume as Mary Marvel :p

Larfleeze

It's doubtful anyone will be absorbing or manipulating his constructs at all. Nor is Adam Warlock's magic going to be of much uses. Not only can he resist it, he can absorb and manipulate both regular energy and magical energy, as can his constructs. Neat little trick eh?

Would have been appropirate had the power of soul gem could in fact have been manipulated. Soul gem is 1/6 of the infinity gauntlet, at true potential its capable of building reality upon reality (universes) as it did during Avengers & Ultraforce. While Adam has never weilded soul gem at that potential, he has shown few abilities, including soul manipulation and you have come up with 0 arguments against it, as expected. That is because soul gem simply cant be countered, if Mephisto couldnt do jack against soul gem, in Hades no less dont see how Larfleeze has even a shiver of a chance.

As far as shields go, well, I've already proven that any energy Adam and Surfer provide can be absorb by either Quasar or Larfleeze's constructs, or even Larfleeze himself. Magic is going to be ill advised, as it will only serve to empower Larfleeze as well.

I dont see Larfleeze being able to absorb a blast that grabs his soul nor do i see any valid defense against it. Furthermore power batteries are like ticking bombs, we have seen GL central batter exploded twice, one during Zero Hour at the hands of Kyle one during Sinestro Corps war by Guadiands, there is little to nothing stopping Thanos from blowing up.

Again, while i am not even remotely convinced Larfleeze has absolutely any defense, whatsoever, against his soul being ripped out, as expected, assuming that does work (and would love to see why it wouldnt) Larfleeze is also vulnerable to telepathy as proven in his fight against Martian Manhunter.

Here are scans courtesy of CitizenBane's Martian Manhunter Respect thread, from Blackest Night 08 ( http://www.comicvine.com/martian-manhunter/29-2047/martian-manhunter-respect-thread/92-704652/#39 )

And all 3 of my team members are telepathy, anyone can screw around with his head there.

And thats not including exotic powers from Warlock like matter manipulation.

Beta Ray Bill

No change, same tactics.

Beta Ray Bill is going to be helpless against Thanos. Given his unbound teleportation and his ability to one shot guys like Rot (making the universe scream) and Fallen One, i dont think BRB will last very long against Thanos. Also given thanosides, retcon as such because Starlin felt that potrayed Thanos as being too weak, have no sold all of Thor's energy attacks i see no reason to believe anything thrown by BRB other than hammer strike is going to do any good, and thats not including Thanos shield to block everything, until he teleports right behind BRB and one shots him.

Ask for any scans, i have so rich in Thanos scan its awesome :)

It'll be a good match, but I stand by my original tactics. As you see, Quasar can use your own teams energy supplies against them (as he's done on multiple occasions, which I've shown) to empower his own constructs. Larfleeze can do much the same, except his powers and abilities extend to magic as well. Additionally, it has already been proven that Adam Warlock and the Soul Gem are susceptible to being drained, and I have a host of energy absorbers at my disposal, plus with my 30 minutes of strategy, I can coordinate which constructs will be being sent out first.

These constructs include telepaths, energy absorbers/manipulators, power houses, tanks, etc. etc. All of which can flicker in and out of reality to avoid being harmed. If any of your team goes down in this fight, Larfleeze can absorb them, and put them back out against your team as a construct as well. Which is a scary concept to any team.

1. USing energy is not solely an ability Quasar has, all of the three are energy manipulators in my team, the most versed being Silver Surfer. While Surfer could replicate energy manipulation, Quasar doesnt have answer to his exotic powers like getting trapped in the board, or molecule manipulation.

2. Larfleeze can be taken down via telepathy or soul manipulation, i frankly see no answer to it.

3. It has never , ever, ever, been proven or even remotely alluded that soul gem is susceptible of being drain. In fact none of the Infinity Gem till date have been shown capable of being drain, broken, or erased out of reality. Thats just what those gems do.

4. Let me think this thru will only let you strategise, you can create construct and anything pertaining to fight, thats one reason why i change the perk.

5. Construct would be useful if Larfleeze doesnt get taken out by soul manipulation, thus far i have seen no answer to it. So will wait for that, and telepathy.

The way i see it:

1. Soul Manipulation/ Telepathy = Larfleeze unable to fight Warlock.

2. Quasar vs Surfer - very close, but surfer is faster and more versatile.

3. Thanos vs BRB = BRB is outmatched and outgunned.

#16 Posted by Floopay (8578 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall:

First of all, Adam isn't the only Soul Manipulator here. Every single one of Larfleeze's constructs is a being he has absorbed at one point in time. I've shown that in a previous scan. He didn't just kill the Controllers, he absorbed them. His Battery is like a Soul Gem, just without all the hype and isn't part of the infinity gauntlet.

Also in the fight between Adam Warlock and Quasar, Warlock even admits that Quasar is, in fact, draining him, and pretty handily at that. I not only have Quasar to absorb energy here, but i have an army of constructs that have on panel evidence supporting the fact that they can absorb and manipulate light constructs and magical energy.

I've also shown already that Quasar can drain the Silver Surfer.

I've also shown that Larfleeze's constructs not only think on their own, but can absorb other energy constructs. Thanos is going to have a heck of a time using telepathy when he has no shield (because Larfleeze's constructs should be able to absorb an ENERGY shield) and a small army of constructs to attack him.

Remember, for your team this is a random encounter of sorts. I have full knowledge on your team (not only from the basic knowledge provided, but from Quasar's knowledge from his run ins with all of your team), and a half hour to strategize.

Silver Surfer has been drained twice by the same device.

Didn't Doctor Doom create a device to drain the Silver Surfer? Back in a Fantastic Four comic?

Then didn't Black Panther use the exact same device against him as well? This is before that wildly misinterpreted Black Panther put Silver Surfer in an armbar scan.

I've already posted not only Quasar and Surfer's fight where Quasar was, in fact, draining the Silver Surfer, but other on panel evidence supporting that Quasar can tap into a herald's Cosmic Energy supply.

Beta Ray Bill:

One shotting him is not going to be easy, he has taken blows from Galactus, which he took after taking a couple blows from Alpha Ray, and seemed to be pretty fine.

I mean, he looks a little pissed, and definitely looks a little damage, but all and all he's still moving and still fighting

Tanked shots from Ego, and he has teleportation as well, and Thanos may have better reflexes, but he's by no means "faster" than Beta Ray Bill

Looked pretty fine even with two singularities opened up on either end of him (I think this is Greens of Eden, but I may be wrong)

Stand point blank in the center of a blast that destroyed a planet (from Skuttlebutt).

Mjonlir, Stormbreaker, and Thunderstrike can all teleport. So battlefield superiority isn't exactly something your team can boast too much of.

Using Stormbreaker, Bill can track your team pretty handily

Quasar:

Silver Surfer is the fastest here, yes, that's fine. But he's not worlds above everyone else, and he sure as heck isn't above being tagged here. I still don't see why he couldn't be drained here, he's been drained before, multiple times. Quasar was draining him their entire battle, Doom drained him with a device, Black Panther drained him again with another device based on Doom's device.

Quasar isn't exactly a lightweight in the energy draining department:

He can channel the energy of an entire sun.

Quasar can absorb energy or energy attacks and redirect them. Forgive me, it's been awhile since I've read these, but I think this is again Rachel Summer's as the Dark Phoenix. I can't find the full fight, only the two scans.

For the Soul Gem:

Any scans of how it fairs against someone else with a Soul Manipulating device? Because Larfleeze has one of those.

For Thanos / Surfer

Any scans of them using telepathy while they are being assaulted? I have never seen Thanos use his telepathy when someone was physically assaulting him to be honest, but I haven't read all his appearances. The same can be said for the Silver Surfer.

For Surfer:

Any on panel evidence showing him resisting energy absorption. Because he has 4 instances supporting that he can have the energy sucked out of his body.

I mean Quasar also had energy sucked out of him, but that was by Annihilus with the Cosmic Rod IIRC, so it's not like he had the energy sucked out of him by some random nameless energy manipulator, he had a cosmic artifact that gave godly powers to it's users. It's not like Surfer faired much better against Annihilus when he had that thing with him...

For Thanos's Shields:

Any on panel evidence supporting these shields cannot be absorbed? If they are magic or made of any energy then Quasar or Larfleeze's constructs should be able to absorb them.

For Adam Warlock:

Any scans supporting that he can't have all the power sucked out of him and weaken him? Even with the Soul Gem he was susceptible to it, and I also would like to see on panel evidence showing the Soul Gem can bypass energy shields and go right for their soul? Especially someone with Soul Manipulation themselves?

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#17 Edited by Killemall (18208 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: I am honestly surprised you did not address half of my points.

First of all, Adam isn't the only Soul Manipulator here. Every single one of Larfleeze's constructs is a being he has absorbed at one point in time. I've shown that in a previous scan. He didn't just kill the Controllers, he absorbed them. His Battery is like a Soul Gem, just without all the hype and isn't part of the infinity gauntlet.

Not sure where you are going with this, you are going to compare a power battery vs the ability to absorb soul from a god? Furthermore, soul gem is what selected Adam Warlock, i see absolutely no reason to believe Larfleeze can manipulate Adam Warlock Soul.

Also no Larfleeze did not manipulated Controller soul, would you happen to have a panel evidence suggest that? All he did was beat/ kill them and created a construct that resembles them as the battery has always done. That is a lot different from Adam Warlock ripping a soul out of someone's body.

Larfleeze isnt faster on the draw than Warlock and all he needs is but one hit and its all over for Larfleeze.

Also in the fight between Adam Warlock and Quasar, Warlock even admits that Quasar is, in fact, draining him, and pretty handily at that. I not only have Quasar to absorb energy here, but i have an army of constructs that have on panel evidence supporting the fact that they can absorb and manipulate light constructs and magical energy.

I believe you are missing my point:

1. Surfer is the one fighting Quasar not Adam.

2. Surfer is NOT the only one that can be drained. In fact Surfer should have no problem leaving Quasar powerless by creating a null field. Given i have full knoweledge of your team, a weakness like that should not be difficult to exploit (more on this below).

I've also shown already that Quasar can drain the Silver Surfer.

No you have, all you have shown in Quasar absorbing the energy from Silver Surfer, that doesnt change the fact that Surfer himself is just as good energy manipulator and Quasar himself is vulnerable to being drained.

I've also shown that Larfleeze's constructs not only think on their own, but can absorb other energy constructs. Thanos is going to have a heck of a time using telepathy when he has no shield (because Larfleeze's constructs should be able to absorb an ENERGY shield) and a small army of constructs to attack him.

This would be a problem if Larfleeze somehow survives long enough to create a construct. There is no valid defense against soul manipulation. Are you really implying Larfleeze ability to manipulate soul is better than Mephisto in Hades?

Adam Warlock/ Silver Surfer: Resurrection Adam Warlock beats Mephisto in Hades, awesome.

Furthemore, with soul gem Adam Warlock has absorbed an entire time line.

Power of Warlock 11: Adam Magus was explained as an avatar of life, created to oppose a great avatar of death, presumably Thanos. They fight, and Adam Magus does pretty well before he ceases to exist because using Thanos's time travel device, Adam Warlock has gone to his future and absorbed the soul of Adam Warlock before he becomes Magus destroying the entire time line.

So Larfleeze has to somehow come up with a way to avoid being left soul less from Adam Warlock i still dont see a valid reason.

Remember, for your team this is a random encounter of sorts. I have full knowledge on your team (not only from the basic knowledge provided, but from Quasar's knowledge from his run ins with all of your team), and a half hour to strategize.

You have 30 mins of prep only to prepare strategy thats all you are allowed to do. No creating construct, or anything. I asked for the same perk before and wanted to let surfer give Thanos a portion of power comics and was told thats how it work.

Secondly, its not a random enounter for me, remember given my perk i have full knoweledge of your team, their strength , their weakness. Including Quasar inability to cope with Null field.

Silver Surfer has been drained twice by the same device.

Didn't Doctor Doom create a device to drain the Silver Surfer? Back in a Fantastic Four comic?

Then didn't Black Panther use the exact same device against him as well? This is before that wildly misinterpreted Black Panther put Silver Surfer in an armbar scan.

I've already posted not only Quasar and Surfer's fight where Quasar was, in fact, draining the Silver Surfer, but other on panel evidence supporting that Quasar can tap into a herald's Cosmic Energy supply.

I am surprised, Doctor Doom has made his device to drain Galactus (twice), Pre Retcon Beyonder, Post Retcon Beyonder etc, Black Panther made his tech based on what Doom did something which was stated on panel.

So i dont see how Surfer being drained by Dr. Doom, is any sort of low showing compared to Quasar being drained dry by Annihilus. I am going to go ahead, and with head held high say Dr Doom tech >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Annihilus + Cosmic control rod.

Furthermore, the point i was trying to make was, both can be drained, both are just as good energy manipulator.

And here's the other thing i was bringing up. Quasar gets his power from Eon/ Epooch his connection to them can and has been disconnected via Null field

Quasar 04

Here is a link that explains what a null field is

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Null_field_generator

In short its just a shield that deflects energy.

Here's Surfer creating shield to protect a planet full of space ship with a blink of an eye.

Nova Vol 4, Issue 14

akslkasdlkajlds

So i dont see how he could drain surfer when Surfer could just as easily cut him off his power source?

Beta Ray Bill:

One shotting him is not going to be easy, he has taken blows from Galactus, which he took after taking a couple blows from Alpha Ray, and seemed to be pretty fine.

I mean, he looks a little pissed, and definitely looks a little damage, but all and all he's still moving and still fighting

Tanked shots from Ego, and he has teleportation as well, and Thanos may have better reflexes, but he's by no means "faster" than Beta Ray Bill

Looked pretty fine even with two singularities opened up on either end of him (I think this is Greens of Eden, but I may be wrong)

Stand point blank in the center of a blast that destroyed a planet (from Skuttlebutt).

Mjonlir, Stormbreaker, and Thunderstrike can all teleport. So battlefield superiority isn't exactly something your team can boast too much of.

Using Stormbreaker, Bill can track your team pretty handily

I can top that :) a copy paste from Thanos vs Surfer (sorry its says Surfer most of the times)

I do not agree with Morpheus_ on that , even if Surfer is written properly and doesnt job , he could beat Thanos. That is because apart from Speed surfer has nothing that could put thanos out for good, while thanos has the blast that he used to kill Rot during Avengers: Celestial Quest.

The above scan if the description of blast Thanos used to kill a baby abstract called rot, and i frankly dont see Surfer tanking that one either.

Here are the full scans of the fight

Fights and kills ROT an abstract level being, the son of Lady Death and Thanos, and the full blast from thanos apparently "Makes the universe scream"

He has pretty much one shotted Fallen one as well.

If not one shot, a couple of shots should do just fine against BRB.

For the Soul Gem:

Any scans of how it fairs against someone else with a Soul Manipulating device? Because Larfleeze has one of those.

I could try and re-paste Mephisto's feat, but thats pretty clear. He won against Mephisto, quite handily because he had superior soul manipulation then his. Kind of shows Larfleeze is screwed doesnt it?

For Thanos / Surfer

Any scans of them using telepathy while they are being assaulted? I have never seen Thanos use his telepathy when someone was physically assaulting him to be honest, but I haven't read all his appearances. The same can be said for the Silver Surfer.

I assume you mean using TP in a fight, here are two

Fights and beats Kosmos (Beyonder/ The Maker) and mind rapes her (traps her limitless powers in her own human body)

06. Fought the Fallen One (apparently Galactus first herald after Tyrant) mind controlled him and made him his herald - Thanos 12

For Surfer:

Any on panel evidence showing him resisting energy absorption. Because he has 4 instances supporting that he can have the energy sucked out of his body.

I mean Quasar also had energy sucked out of him, but that was by Annihilus with the Cosmic Rod IIRC, so it's not like he had the energy sucked out of him by some random nameless energy manipulator, he had a cosmic artifact that gave godly powers to it's users. It's not like Surfer faired much better against Annihilus when he had that thing with him...

None from Surfer that i had.

I still dont see how Annihilus with cosmic control rod > Doom's teach who has achieved things Annihilus cant even dream of?

Also the point was both can be drained, and Quasar ability can be blocked , likely in a blink of an eye by surfer.

For Thanos's Shields:

Any on panel evidence supporting these shields cannot be absorbed? If they are magic or made of any energy then Quasar or Larfleeze's constructs should be able to absorb them.

Never seen anyone try and absorb his shield, but thats not the point. Thanos here should be going up against Beta Ray Bill, because both Larfleeze vs Adam Warlock and Surfer vs Quasar is looking good for my team.

For Adam Warlock:

Any scans supporting that he can't have all the power sucked out of him and weaken him? Even with the Soul Gem he was susceptible to it, and I also would like to see on panel evidence showing the Soul Gem can bypass energy shields and go right for their soul? Especially someone with Soul Manipulation themselves?

I think you misunderstand, Adam Warlock can be drained, but drained before he drains someone soul, which takes but a touch from his blast, not so much. Then we have his generic ability to put up shields, or his ability to drag people in soul world.

I still dont see how Larfleeze can protect his soul but if you still disagree we will put that to a vote :)

#18 Posted by Floopay (8578 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@Floopay: I am honestly surprised you did not address half of my points.

First of all, Adam isn't the only Soul Manipulator here. Every single one of Larfleeze's constructs is a being he has absorbed at one point in time. I've shown that in a previous scan. He didn't just kill the Controllers, he absorbed them. His Battery is like a Soul Gem, just without all the hype and isn't part of the infinity gauntlet.

Not sure where you are going with this, you are going to compare a power battery vs the ability to absorb soul from a god? Furthermore, soul gem is what selected Adam Warlock, i see absolutely no reason to believe Larfleeze can manipulate Adam Warlock Soul.

Also no Larfleeze did not manipulated Controller soul, would you happen to have a panel evidence suggest that? All he did was beat/ kill them and created a construct that resembles them as the battery has always done. That is a lot different from Adam Warlock ripping a soul out of someone's body.

Larfleeze isnt faster on the draw than Warlock and all he needs is but one hit and its all over for Larfleeze.

Also in the fight between Adam Warlock and Quasar, Warlock even admits that Quasar is, in fact, draining him, and pretty handily at that. I not only have Quasar to absorb energy here, but i have an army of constructs that have on panel evidence supporting the fact that they can absorb and manipulate light constructs and magical energy.

I believe you are missing my point:

1. Surfer is the one fighting Quasar not Adam.

2. Surfer is NOT the only one that can be drained. In fact Surfer should have no problem leaving Quasar powerless by creating a null field. Given i have full knoweledge of your team, a weakness like that should not be difficult to exploit (more on this below).

I've also shown already that Quasar can drain the Silver Surfer.

No you have, all you have shown in Quasar absorbing the energy from Silver Surfer, that doesnt change the fact that Surfer himself is just as good energy manipulator and Quasar himself is vulnerable to being drained.

I've also shown that Larfleeze's constructs not only think on their own, but can absorb other energy constructs. Thanos is going to have a heck of a time using telepathy when he has no shield (because Larfleeze's constructs should be able to absorb an ENERGY shield) and a small army of constructs to attack him.

This would be a problem if Larfleeze somehow survives long enough to create a construct. There is no valid defense against soul manipulation. Are you really implying Larfleeze ability to manipulate soul is better than Mephisto in Hades?

Adam Warlock/ Silver Surfer: Resurrection Adam Warlock beats Mephisto in Hades, awesome.

Furthemore, with soul gem Adam Warlock has absorbed an entire time line.

Power of Warlock 11: Adam Magus was explained as an avatar of life, created to oppose a great avatar of death, presumably Thanos. They fight, and Adam Magus does pretty well before he ceases to exist because using Thanos's time travel device, Adam Warlock has gone to his future and absorbed the soul of Adam Warlock before he becomes Magus destroying the entire time line.

So Larfleeze has to somehow come up with a way to avoid being left soul less from Adam Warlock i still dont see a valid reason.

Remember, for your team this is a random encounter of sorts. I have full knowledge on your team (not only from the basic knowledge provided, but from Quasar's knowledge from his run ins with all of your team), and a half hour to strategize.

You have 30 mins of prep only to prepare strategy thats all you are allowed to do. No creating construct, or anything. I asked for the same perk before and wanted to let surfer give Thanos a portion of power comics and was told thats how it work.

Secondly, its not a random enounter for me, remember given my perk i have full knoweledge of your team, their strength , their weakness. Including Quasar inability to cope with Null field.

Silver Surfer has been drained twice by the same device.

Didn't Doctor Doom create a device to drain the Silver Surfer? Back in a Fantastic Four comic?

Then didn't Black Panther use the exact same device against him as well? This is before that wildly misinterpreted Black Panther put Silver Surfer in an armbar scan.

I've already posted not only Quasar and Surfer's fight where Quasar was, in fact, draining the Silver Surfer, but other on panel evidence supporting that Quasar can tap into a herald's Cosmic Energy supply.

I am surprised, Doctor Doom has made his device to drain Galactus (twice), Pre Retcon Beyonder, Post Retcon Beyonder etc, Black Panther made his tech based on what Doom did something which was stated on panel.

So i dont see how Surfer being drained by Dr. Doom, is any sort of low showing compared to Quasar being drained dry by Annihilus. I am going to go ahead, and with head held high say Dr Doom tech >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Annihilus + Cosmic control rod.

Furthermore, the point i was trying to make was, both can be drained, both are just as good energy manipulator.

And here's the other thing i was bringing up. Quasar gets his power from Eon/ Epooch his connection to them can and has been disconnected via Null field

Quasar 04

Here is a link that explains what a null field is

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Null_field_generator

In short its just a shield that deflects energy.

Here's Surfer creating shield to protect a planet full of space ship with a blink of an eye.

Nova Vol 4, Issue 14

akslkasdlkajlds

So i dont see how he could drain surfer when Surfer could just as easily cut him off his power source?

All of this is off the assumption that your team hops into this battle with a strategy and prep, which they have none of. Your team is going into this the same way they would go into a random encounter.

Do they have knowledge on my team? Yes, they have full knowledge. But they have no prep time to work with it, your assumption is that they will go into battle with a battle plan to each individually exploit my teams weaknesses.

My team is going in with almost full knowledge on your team (because of Quasar's knowledge).

Larfleeze

Larfleeze steals souls, and then can create them as constructs. That's how his power works, that's why when the Controllers appear as constructs, the Guardians identify that the Controllers have fallen. It's not because they assume that Larfleeze saw a Controller at some point in time and can now create them, it's because Larfleeze had killed them, and absorbed their souls.

That's why he says they will all become a part of his Corps. He can't just create anyone he sees, otherwise he could just create Silver Surfer or Thanos, but he can't. He has to absorb their soul and then recreate them as his eternal slaves.

Larfleeze doesn't have to be stronger than Mephisto, he has Soul Absoprtion/Manipulation, and he has a powerful energy shield to protect him against attacks.

Adam Warlock

I have prep time to come up with a strategy, can Adam Warlock break energy barriers or phase through them with the Soul Gem? It looks like the Soul Gem has to make contact with it's target to damage them, and if Quasar traps him in an energy bubble, that nullifies that plan. And if Warlock can't breech any of my teams Energy Shields, then that's going to make things difficult as well.

Unless feats are provided that show he can easily rip through Quasar's shields, or that he can breech energy barriers with the Soul Gem, then my original plan is still valid.

Surfer

Null Field Generator - I normally don't doubt you, but I would like to see on panel evidence of him creating this.

Additionally, if it's created with any sort of energy or magic, Larfleeze's constructs should help against that.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#19 Posted by Killemall (18208 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: You only got half of my reply, had to edit the post, apologies in advance.

Just to clear out what i said:

And here's the other thing i was bringing up. Quasar gets his power from Eon/ Epooch his connection to them can and has been disconnected via Null field

Quasar 04

Here is a link that explains what a null field is

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Null_field_generator

In short its just a shield that deflects energy.

Here's Surfer creating shield to protect a planet full of space ship with a blink of an eye.

Nova Vol 4, Issue 14

akslkasdlkajlds

So i dont see how he could drain surfer when Surfer could just as easily cut him off his power source?

What i was trying to go here (i see my scans have vanished will repost that tomorrow , dont worry) was that null field is nothing different, or complex just something to cut energy supply, surfer should have no problem creating one :)

Rest will reply by tomorrow or the day after, i am going out on weekend

#20 Posted by Floopay (8578 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@Floopay: You only got half of my reply, had to edit the post, apologies in advance.

Just to clear out what i said:

And here's the other thing i was bringing up. Quasar gets his power from Eon/ Epooch his connection to them can and has been disconnected via Null field

Quasar 04

Here is a link that explains what a null field is

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Null_field_generator

In short its just a shield that deflects energy.

Here's Surfer creating shield to protect a planet full of space ship with a blink of an eye.

Nova Vol 4, Issue 14

akslkasdlkajlds

So i dont see how he could drain surfer when Surfer could just as easily cut him off his power source?

What i was trying to go here (i see my scans have vanished will repost that tomorrow , dont worry) was that null field is nothing different, or complex just something to cut energy supply, surfer should have no problem creating one :)

Rest will reply by tomorrow or the day after, i am going out on weekend

I hate to tell you, but it may be simple, but that doesn't mean it's easy to create. Broadcasting an energy jamming signal of some sort that cuts him off from the Quantum Zone.

I am going to guess these are the two scans you are specifically referring to.

The first one is the field by Galactus, which is electromagnetic in nature.

The second is one created by the Silver Surfer. The "Null-Field" you are referring to. The only thing this really shows is the Surfer can create a shield that blocks the noise generated from electromagnetic fields. Who knows how it works. Does it actually block the electromagnetic field? Is it just a noise canceling field of energy that neutralizes the electromagnetic interference? Because it obviously didn't block all forms of energy, as Nova was still able to communicate with the fleet ships.

If it were so easy to do, the Surfer could have erected a null field to cut off any number of characters from their power sources....and defeated them that way...but he's never done so. This seems like an extremely speculative leap of faith in his ability to create a null field.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#21 Posted by ToO_RaW (1077 posts) - - Show Bio

Does the audience get to vote?

#22 Posted by Floopay (8578 posts) - - Show Bio

@ToO_RaW said:

Does the audience get to vote?

When we are finished :P

Still debating atm.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#23 Posted by Killemall (18208 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: Lets address this one at a time , easier that way :)

All of this is off the assumption that your team hops into this battle with a strategy and prep, which they have none of. Your team is going into this the same way they would go into a random encounter.

Do they have knowledge on my team? Yes, they have full knowledge. But they have no prep time to work with it, your assumption is that they will go into battle with a battle plan to each individually exploit my teams weaknesses.

I am a little confused. So my team has full knoweledge of your team, i.e. knows all their strengths and weakness. Any and all stuffs i am saying does not require a prep time, if i was to use prep time, i can get surfer to create virtually anything. After all Surfer with matter manipulation has created weapon out of thin air, and Thanos know a LOT about weapons, one can think the other can create. Thats not what i am saying.

Adam Warlock doesnt need prep to use his soul gem he has done so before.

My team is going in with almost full knowledge on your team (because of Quasar's knowledge).

Thats assuming Quasar has full knowledge of my team, and frankly he doesnt. He has working knowledge, nothing more. He is not going to know full details, my team however does.

Larfleeze

Larfleeze steals souls, and then can create them as constructs. That's how his power works, that's why when the Controllers appear as constructs, the Guardians identify that the Controllers have fallen. It's not because they assume that Larfleeze saw a Controller at some point in time and can now create them, it's because Larfleeze had killed them, and absorbed their souls.

That's why he says they will all become a part of his Corps. He can't just create anyone he sees, otherwise he could just create Silver Surfer or Thanos, but he can't. He has to absorb their soul and then recreate them as his eternal slaves.

I am surprised which particular scan says Larfleeze steals soul. I dont see any there.

Not to mention we are talking about living soul, Larfleeze only gets a construct once someone is killed. I have never seen Larfleeze rip a soul out of anyone, granted i am not the biggest expert of Larfleeze after my computer crashed, maybe you can help.

Larfleeze doesn't have to be stronger than Mephisto, he has Soul Absoprtion/Manipulation, and he has a powerful energy shield to protect him against attacks.

I think you are missing my point. Larfleeze stats with 1 construct, Warlock can throw out more than one wave of energy, one has to touch him, just one. Larfleeze isnt the fastest of the person to see he can dodge and i honestly question his ability to put up a shield specially given Warlock teleportaion (but more on that later, coz thats how Warlock would escape Quasar's bubble)

For the moment have a look at his, and number of rays that comes out

Only one them has to touch Larfleeze and he is done for.

I have prep time to come up with a strategy, can Adam Warlock break energy barriers or phase through them with the Soul Gem? It looks like the Soul Gem has to make contact with it's target to damage them, and if Quasar traps him in an energy bubble, that nullifies that plan. And if Warlock can't breech any of my teams Energy Shields, then that's going to make things difficult as well.

Unless feats are provided that show he can easily rip through Quasar's shields, or that he can breech energy barriers with the Soul Gem, then my original plan is still valid.

Sure this is easy to address.

No Adam Warlock can phase through solid object, Surfer can.

Warlock like Thanos can teleport away :)

Fantastic Four 67: Few counts of teleportation

The Mighty Thor 165

Same issue but one that takes place off panel

Few counts of teleportaion from Warlock.

And here's Quantum teleporting out of of Quasar shield.

If you are interested its from Quasar vol 1, 04.

Surfer

Null Field Generator - I normally don't doubt you, but I would like to see on panel evidence of him creating this.

Additionally, if it's created with any sort of energy or magic, Larfleeze's constructs should help against that.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

Surfer has never on panel generated null field that i know of, Thor has. Surfer however has cut off people from their power source, in fact take away entire power.

Silver Surfer Volume 3 Issue 0.5: Instead of showing only the last few pages i have shown the scan that explains about her powers.

In short she is more like Superman derives her powers from the sun, Surfer not only cuts off that powers, take the power away permanently.

I hate to tell you, but it may be simple, but that doesn't mean it's easy to create. Broadcasting an energy jamming signal of some sort that cuts him off from the Quantum Zone.

I am going to guess these are the two scans you are specifically referring to.

The first one is the field by Galactus, which is electromagnetic in nature.

The second is one created by the Silver Surfer. The "Null-Field" you are referring to. The only thing this really shows is the Surfer can create a shield that blocks the noise generated from electromagnetic fields. Who knows how it works. Does it actually block the electromagnetic field? Is it just a noise canceling field of energy that neutralizes the electromagnetic interference? Because it obviously didn't block all forms of energy, as Nova was still able to communicate with the fleet ships.

Its not a null field, but that was to show how "fast" he could create a barrier. The whole issues was Galactus ship casuing electromagnetic disruption, and surfer blinking and shielding each individual ships from that said disruption to escape it. Shows how fast he can operate.

I personally still dont see how that should be beyond his scope, even if we say it is, Surfer has matter manipulation something Quasar has no answer to. He has turned people to nothing more than mere atoms, and has 2 matter manipulation on planetary scale. Quasar has no answer to that either. Or he could simply trap Quasar in his board, he doesnt have answer to that either.

If it were so easy to do, the Surfer could have erected a null field to cut off any number of characters from their power sources....and defeated them that way...but he's never done so. This seems like an extremely speculative leap of faith in his ability to create a null field.

Well Surfer has plenty of ability to defeat any opponent he faces, given one of his most common foe is Reptyl. He can simply manipulate his atoms, trap him in his board, or blitz the hell out of him, there are so many things he can do, he doesnt, plot.

#24 Posted by Killemall (18208 posts) - - Show Bio

@ToO_RaW said:

Does the audience get to vote?

They do only if they are going to vote for me, else GTFO :p

#25 Posted by ToO_RaW (1077 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok

@Killemall said:

@ToO_RaW said:

Does the audience get to vote?

They do only if they are going to vote for me, else GTFO :p

LMFAO.

#26 Posted by Floopay (8578 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall:

It is not uncommon for lanterns to keep an energy field around themselves to protect themselves

You see the little green, yellow, and orange lights around the respective lanterns? Those are shields. Lanterns have them up more often than not when in battle.

Here is Darkseid shattering the shield (just to prove the light around him is a shield)

Here's his shield tanking blasts from Guardians

In fact, I'm not 100% certain I can find a scan of him existing in space without his shields up....

My team can teleport as well, Quasar can teleport my team around if he wants to, BRB can teleport, etc. etc.

Beta Ray Bill

Beta Ray Bill can also absorb and redirect energy attacks

If he hits Adam, that's a hefty amount of damage to tank, and if Adam is going to teleport right on top of my team and leave himself open to attack like that, then I don't see why Beta Ray Bill wouldn't.

30 minutes prep, and a list of powers. My team will know that the first thing to do is put up shields and get out constructs for Larfleeze. It's common sense. Adam will have to analyze who he will attack first, and then go into battle, so Larfleeze should have no issues here.

He can summon swarms of constructs at once.

As you can see, no army

Then BAM, army

Again, once summoned, they will act on their own

Over and above this, he knows everything his constructs know, that's a heck of a battlefield commander with his army

As for the Surfer Feat:

Is there anything there to suggest he didn't simply drain her power source and therefore removed her power? It looks like she gained a good portion of her power from that transmutation chamber she was in, and with it destroyed and her no longer with a power source, I see nothing to suggest that her powers weren't on some sort of limit. It's hard to for me to assume that sucking the green light out of someone who just recently was in a chamber filled with green light suggests that he depowered her over simply removing energy from her.

I mean I hate to play devil's advocate, but it doesn't seem like a "superpower removal" feat, it seems more like an "energy draining" feat.

Thank you for reading,

Floopay

#27 Posted by Killemall (18208 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay said:

@Killemall:

It is not uncommon for lanterns to keep an energy field around themselves to protect themselves

You see the little green, yellow, and orange lights around the respective lanterns? Those are shields. Lanterns have them up more often than not when in battle.

Here is Darkseid shattering the shield (just to prove the light around him is a shield)

Here's his shield tanking blasts from Guardians

In fact, I'm not 100% certain I can find a scan of him existing in space without his shields up....

I honestly dont think that a construct, it should just be an energy aura.

As per Darkseid shattering it, apart from this particular issue i have never seen that before, i think its just an energy aura that protects Green Lantern as opposed to being a shield or a construct.

Ion 01: Here is Kyle vs Alex Nero, a guy who is similar to Agent Orange and can make sentient constructs.

He is beaten without anything being broken.

Furthermore, this certainly isnt any defense against soul gem, now is it?

My team can teleport as well, Quasar can teleport my team around if he wants to, BRB can teleport, etc. etc.

Your team can teleport, sneaking up on me isnt going to be easy.

Firstly, Adam Warlock can sense when someone's teleporting nearby.

Annihilation Conquest 02: Adam Warlock can sense when someone is about to teleport near him.

Silver Surfer's cosmic awareness gives him details about energies around him, making it very hard to sneak up on him.

Here's some description of how Silver Surfer's power works from various handbook i have

Marvel handbook 1986

As you can see its a very old handbook so the print looks terrible. Here it says ".... has certain cosmic energy enchanced perceptions which enable him through concentration to becomes away of the patter of energy which surround him".

Marvel Encyclopedia 2001

A bit more recent so scan look a bit better. It explains "Cosmic awareness, allowing the Surfer to feel energy at work around him".

Minor on panel application,

Fear Itself: The Deep 03: Tyrak the Terrible tried to sneak up on silver surfer by disusing as a innocent lady helping Surfer out, but good old surfer shall not be so easily fooled :p

So the only person you can sneak up on would be Thanos, given his insane durability neither BRB nor Quasar are going to be able to do much, if any damage at all against him. Furthermore, its a team of 3 telepath, its not a huge problem to established a TP link between the members of the team in case this sneak attack on Thanos being more often.

Beta Ray Bill

Beta Ray Bill can also absorb and redirect energy attacks

If he hits Adam, that's a hefty amount of damage to tank, and if Adam is going to teleport right on top of my team and leave himself open to attack like that, then I don't see why Beta Ray Bill wouldn't.

Firstly Adam Warlock himself is a top class energy manipulator.

Guardian of the Galaxy Volume 2, Issue 17: One of the best energy manipulation feat, Adam Warlock manipulated the power of Terrigen Bomb that was powerful enough to destroy the whole reality (aka universe)

So being able to manipulate a blast from BRB isnt a problem.

Furthermore, shields is another thing you will have to deal with.

30 minutes prep, and a list of powers. My team will know that the first thing to do is put up shields and get out constructs for Larfleeze. It's common sense. Adam will have to analyze who he will attack first, and then go into battle, so Larfleeze should have no issues here.

Unlikely given Adam Warlock is just as fast as Larfleeze, likely faster, and all he needs is 1 attack to finish this. Its also not going to be hard to find an opening and none of his sentinent construct are going to have any defense against soul manipulation either.

He can summon swarms of constructs at once.

As you can see, no army

Then BAM, army

Again, once summoned, they will act on their own

Over and above this, he knows everything his constructs know, that's a heck of a battlefield commander with his army

Again none of them are going to have any defense whatsoever against soul manipulation.

This should work perfectly against any and all construct Larfleeze comes up against.

Larfleeze is indeed very durable but that doesnt matter if the opponent can simply absorb your soul or defeat you just by touching.

Soul Manipulation simply by touching

Warlock using soul-powers without SG part 1
Warlock using soul-powers without SG part 2

Given teleportation and a lack of combat speed feat from Larfleeze its very unlikely to suggest Adam Warlock cant touch him once during the battle, or tag him once with his soul gem, and thats all that is need for him to beat him

Furthermore, its not like Larfleeze has any defense against telepathy, or any defense against matter manipulation.

Various counts of Matter Manipulation for Adam Warlock sadly a power he hasn't use in recent times

Marvel Premier 02: Turned Hounds into human

Power of Warlock 02: Turned bullets into harmless water molecules

Power of Warlock 02: Turned Parachute into air molecules

Power of Warlock 08: Turns monsters into small bite size :p

Strange Tales 178: Turned Man beast into well an actual animal :p

Despite all his powers Larfleeze is directly vulnerable to soul manipulation.

As for the Surfer Feat:

Is there anything there to suggest he didn't simply drain her power source and therefore removed her power? It looks like she gained a good portion of her power from that transmutation chamber she was in, and with it destroyed and her no longer with a power source, I see nothing to suggest that her powers weren't on some sort of limit. It's hard to for me to assume that sucking the green light out of someone who just recently was in a chamber filled with green light suggests that he depowered her over simply removing energy from her.

I mean I hate to play devil's advocate, but it doesn't seem like a "superpower removal" feat, it seems more like an "energy draining" feat.

Thank you for reading,

Floopay

Actually no where in the scan does Silver Surfer actually absorbs or even touches her .

Surfer says he is going to take her powers away

Surfer actually takes her powers away.

The green energy you are talking about, Surfer doesnt absorb the energy at any point. In fact when she is falling down she still has the green aura.

Anyhow, regardless of how you interpret this feat, it doesnt change what i initially stated about Quasar vs Surfer:

1. Surfer is not the only one that can be drained, and given surfer ability to absorb cosmic energies i dont think its going to be easy to drain Surfer.

2. Surfer is arguably faster in combat than Quasar.

3. Surfer has matter manipulation.

4. Surfer could simply trap Quasar on his board.

5. Surfer could try and drag Quasar in the astral plane

So Surfer has much more ways of dealing with Quasar than other way around, ergo, Surfer should have no problem dealing with Quasar.

Then its

Larfleeze vs Adam Warlock

  • Larfleeze is vulnerable to TP, something Warlock could exploit. That being said Warlock ability to take out anyone with telepathy is questionable, not an ability he has used for more than communicating with people.
  • Larfleeze has absolutely no answer to soul manipulation. All Warlock has to do is be able to hit him once with an energy blast from soul gem, any point during the fight. His constructs arent going to fair any different either. So that makes it very , very, hard to fight Warlock.
  • I dont see what defense does Larfleeze has against transmutation.
  • I could of course get more creative, get someone to rush Larfleeze and take away his battery, Kyle has nearly taken away his battery recently.
  • I could also try and get someone to blow up the batter making it very hard to larfleeze.
  • I could also get silver surfer to create a forcefield around the battery like he has done against Thor, denying him an access to central battery.

Larfleeze for all his powers has vulnerability, and given my team has full knowledge of yours, there is plenty of things my team can do to take out Larfleeze. Specially given Adam's ability.

Furthermore, if for some reason Quasar goes against Warlock, Silver Surfer can always intervene, and its not like Warlock has any valid defense against soul manipulation either. BRB is the only one.

#28 Posted by Floopay (8578 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall:

As per Darkseid shattering it, apart from this particular issue i have never seen that before, i think its just an energy aura that protects Green Lantern as opposed to being a shield or a construct.

Okay, I dunno how that isn't almost the exact definition of a shield or barrier! :P

And it has tanked blasts from several guardians simultaneously without him showing any signs of harm, as I've already shown. So again, show me a feat showing Adam Warlock can bypass energy barriers (if you don't like the term shield) with his attacks.

Adam's greatest energy manipulation feat also shows that he was completely out of touch with reality while doing so because he was so completely focused. And he was given heads up before the explosion happened. I would have to see an actual spur of the moment energy manipulation feat to support the idea that he can do you...well....spur of the moment.

Larfleeze doesn't need combat speed, he has a protective barrier that has shielded him from more powerful attacks than just a touch.

He's not the only one to create an army with rings btw: Hal Jordan did the same to him as well. Though I dunno why that's relevant

Larfleeze doesn't have any feats supporting protection against matter manipulation, but it has been shown that not only are constructs (such as energy barriers, shields, hard light constructs, etc.) immune to transmutation, but the rings do give their users transmutation abilities

Kyle uses his ring to shapeshift himself

Kyle can split atoms and etc. with his ring

There are a couple more, but I can't seem to find them.

Is there any proof that Quasar can't quantum leap out of Surfur's board once trapped? The guy has dimensional leaped before. This is to the Quantum Zone, which are attached to his Quantum Bands, but it does prove he can cross between zones, and he can quantum leap. Has Surfer ever trapped someone who could teleport out?

Quasar can also sense energy blasts and stuffs

Quasar can also pump out quite a bit of force with his attacks, and I've already shown he can amplify these attacks by pulling energy from other sources:

Note: Quasar does, in fact, lose this fight, so no I'm not stating this is taking out Thanos, just showing some attack prowess.

Additional Information needed:

I never stated anything about ambushing your team, I am just stating that teleporting isn't exactly going to catch my team off-guard either, and because both teams can do it relatively competently, it's not exactly a game changer.

And though Surfer is faster than Quasar (arguably, I would say by only a small margin), overall in team vs. team, I think we're actually relatively equal in that department.

I still need evidence to support Adam can resist having his energy absorbed out of him, remember, Larfleeze can conjure these things behind Adam, they don't have to appear right in front of him. This was proven in the scan I provided of him summoning the Controllers.

I also need evidence to support that Adam can bypass energy barriers with that soul gem of his. As well as proof that he can manipulate energy on the fly. Over and above this, any magic tricks he pulls out will be fizzled out by Larfleeze's constructs, this was already stated on panel in a scan I've posted multiple times.

I also need supporting evidence that shows that Larfleeze can be telepathically assaulted while your team is in heavy combat. Remember, with prep I will have have a leg up at the start of battle. My team will already be attacking head on, this includes Thanos losing his shields, a small army being conjured immediately as the battle starts, and that small army trying to absorb the energy from your team from a distance.

Over and above this, it includes Beta Ray Bill assaulting your team, as well as Quasar.

I mean I know I pull the energy absorption thing a lot here, but I'm not stating this as coming from a single source, this is coming from multiple sources. These constructs were holding down the Guardians (multiple Guardians) and a group of lanterns, and preventing them from putting up a formidable defense. This was including against a magic user (Torquemada) whose spells they were eating up. So it's not exactly like these are some B-Rate energy absorbers/manipulators either.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#29 Posted by Killemall (18208 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: I have to be away for a week , i could try and form a rebuttal now but dont have the hard disk with me at the moment and feats i have saved in my computer are limited. Is it ok if i reply you on Tuesday, likely after 5pm? Sorry for the unexpected delay, and for the record, you dont have to apologise for playing the devil's advocate, that's what a debate is all about =)

#30 Posted by Floopay (8578 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@Floopay: I have to be away for a week , i could try and form a rebuttal now but dont have the hard disk with me at the moment and feats i have saved in my computer are limited. Is it ok if i reply you on Tuesday, likely after 5pm? Sorry for the unexpected delay, and for the record, you dont have to apologise for playing the devil's advocate, that's what a debate is all about =)

That's fine, still setting up threads for Strider92, darktiger, nickthedevil, and beatboks1 anyway.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#31 Posted by Killemall (18208 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: Ok back.

Okay, I dunno how that isn't almost the exact definition of a shield or barrier! :P

The way i see it, shields are physical construct that prevent something from getting close to you. Energy auras just increase your durability. But that part is inconsequential to the debate.

And it has tanked blasts from several guardians simultaneously without him showing any signs of harm, as I've already shown. So again, show me a feat showing Adam Warlock can bypass energy barriers (if you don't like the term shield) with his attacks.

I could ask the same couldnt i? Show me one instance where the power of soul gem has ever been resisted, blocked, weaken. Certainly hasnt happen coz no one has tried and given what soul gem represents, a complete control over soul, not only hyperbole a tested hypothesis and proven in the battle against Mephisto, the same person who was able to get the better of Galactus in a fight, loses, handily at that against Adam Warlock with soul gem, despite Adam Warlock not having 1/100 the powers of it.

Secondly, here Adam Warlock with his gem scans Galactus's ship from a distance, unfortunately though Galactus has no soul and hence Adam cant do anything against him.

Hear me out first before you go, that not a feat, i know it is not. The reason i am putting this out was to show Thanos, whom himself in the same page admits his power is lilliputian to Galactus thought it would be possible for Adam Warlock to fend off Galactus, not this is fed Galactus, albeit fed on the energy of infinity gem as opposed to planets, show how potent the power of gem is. Had the power easily been counter by shield or constructs (note Galactus entire body is metal armor, works similar to Larfleeze's energy aura i would think) Thanos, one of the smartest guy in marvel universe, who has had plentry of dealing with Galactus, has good knowledge of Galactus wouldnt have thought so.

What i am trying to get at is, given what the gem has been shown capable of doing, i do not think Larfleeze with his aura or otherwise will have any defense against the soul gem. While this is not a conclusive feat, i think this scan, puts my point across.

Adam's greatest energy manipulation feat also shows that he was completely out of touch with reality while doing so because he was so completely focused. And he was given heads up before the explosion happened. I would have to see an actual spur of the moment energy manipulation feat to support the idea that he can do you...well....spur of the moment.

Ok i will leave you with a very interesting feat, open to many different interpretation, the advantage being however you interpret the said feat, shows he can deal with BRB's energy blast, as it wont get one shotted.

Infinity Gauntlet 03: His beast durability feat , tanking a blast from an angry, fed Galactus.

Some people say well Adam maybe just as durable to tank the blast, if you agree that, tanking BRB blast shouldnt be a problem. Other say he teleported away in the last minute, note you can actually see him caught in the blast, which suggest Adam is capable of teleporting away after the blast is fired, works on his favor again. Third would be he manipulated Galactus's energy, entire would work.

Larfleeze doesn't need combat speed, he has a protective barrier that has shielded him from more powerful attacks than just a touch.

He will need combat speed to get out of the blast, and i dont think physical durability would matter, since he isnt attacking his physical body but rather his soul.

He's not the only one to create an army with rings btw: Hal Jordan did the same to him as well. Though I dunno why that's relevant

I think you misunderstand, Nero has the ability to create sentinent construct. A construct that can move, think and act on its own. Without anyone's guidance, something only Larfleeze can do.

Green Lantern Vol 3, 135: This is not the full fight, but putting this in show you would understand why i drew a parallel between Larfleeze and Alex Nero, here he has sentient construct swarming in New York, when he himself isnt there at all. He had the whole city as well as JLA overwhelmed with his sentience construct.

But this is not as useful in the battle, just trying to get my point across as why i believe a comparison with Nero was appropriate.

Larfleeze doesn't have any feats supporting protection against matter manipulation, but it has been shown that not only are constructs (such as energy barriers, shields, hard light constructs, etc.) immune to transmutation, but the rings do give their users transmutation abilities

I am a little unsure to why you posted that scan as it clearly isnt Larfleeze in the scan, nor has Larfleeze every fought firestorm.

Kyle uses his ring to shapeshift himself

Kyle can split atoms and etc. with his ring

There are a couple more, but I can't seem to find them.

Not sure how these feats are relevant. Neither shows anything to support being capable durable or resistant to matter manipulation, and Kyle's ring has always been different from everyone else. Also is Green Ring vs Larfleeze energy aura really the best comparision to be made? Not too sure, but maybe you can explain. Never really understood the connection between various corps, but most powers seem to be different. I am willing to concede here if there is something i am missing.

Is there any proof that Quasar can't quantum leap out of Surfur's board once trapped? The guy has dimensional leaped before. This is to the Quantum Zone, which are attached to his Quantum Bands, but it does prove he can cross between zones, and he can quantum leap. Has Surfer ever trapped someone who could teleport out?

Should i re-post the scan. Its Surfer trapping Legacy (Genis Vell) in the board, and nega bands themselves have teleportation abilities much like Quasar, in fact they have similar origin, similar source and both over seen by the same person (Eon). In fact Quasar was the one who overtook the mantle of protector of the universe from Mar Vell (Genis's father).

Quasar can also sense energy blasts and stuffs

Not sure how this helps, if you noticed i have not once stated any of my team members would teleport behind Quasar, but rather Larfleeze and BRB. Also you can find a proper cosmic awarness feat in the next story arc (this is operation galactic storm story arc) after this, Starbrand.

Quasar has cosmic awareness very similar to silver surfer, getting a jump on Quasar is going to be very difficult, as getting a jump on anyone with cosmic awarness would be. Neither BRB nor Larfleeze has cosmic awareness.

Note: Quasar does, in fact, lose this fight, so no I'm not stating this is taking out Thanos, just showing some attack prowess.

Ok.. not sure where you are going with this but never said Quasar blast were lackluster, just said he doesnt have anything to put down Thanos, and he frankly doesnt. Before his boost, Odin struggled to put him down, not sure why anyone would think Quasar could, when Odin in the same issue casually one shotted 2 superman level beings.

Energy attack from Quasar is certainly not taking Thanos out though, Surfer has equally powerful energy attack, has busted a planet twice, in face even ripped a whole in space time with but a casual energy discharge, you have seen both the instance but i can repost if you like.

I never stated anything about ambushing your team, I am just stating that teleporting isn't exactly going to catch my team off-guard either, and because both teams can do it relatively competently, it's not exactly a game changer.

Ok i still dont understand why wouldnt teleportation catch your team off guard. BRB needs his weapon to actually absorb the energy distarged by Thanos, else he barely has durability to take few blast from him, Thanos can teleport behind him and blast him, BRB doesnt have a way to know the blast is coming in to block it. BRB can do the same to Thanos, problem being Thanos is far too durable for BRB to put down.

Teleportation should work just fine against Larfleeze as well.

And though Surfer is faster than Quasar (arguably, I would say by only a small margin), overall in team vs. team, I think we're actually relatively equal in that department.

Surfer has gone circles around earth in no time, travelled a little under light year within second to try and snatch IG from Thanos, certainly dont see why it would be by a small margin. Hoping you can show me something to suggest otherwise.

Surfer cant fight faster than nanosecond though, and neither can quasar, but the advantage is Surfer can ram upto Quasar before anything.

You team has raw power, my teams has more versatility.

Besides Surfer could just as easily drag Quasar to astral plane, being a non telepath, he is likely going to be helpless there. That is something Surfer used to prevent from being leeched during In Thy Name.

I still need evidence to support Adam can resist having his energy absorbed out of him, remember, Larfleeze can conjure these things behind Adam, they don't have to appear right in front of him. This was proven in the scan I provided of him summoning the Controllers.

Adam can sense anything behind him and just teleport away. You are making it sound as if the construct can one shot him, while him being able to one shot the construct is more likely.

I also need evidence to support that Adam can bypass energy barriers with that soul gem of his. As well as proof that he can manipulate energy on the fly. Over and above this, any magic tricks he pulls out will be fizzled out by Larfleeze's constructs, this was already stated on panel in a scan I've posted multiple times.

I am hoping the Galactus instance helps, them we have mephisto's instance certainly shows otherwise. If you have nothing to add, apart from this we can summarise out reply in one last post and call for votes.

I also need supporting evidence that shows that Larfleeze can be telepathically assaulted while your team is in heavy combat. Remember, with prep I will have have a leg up at the start of battle. My team will already be attacking head on, this includes Thanos losing his shields, a small army being conjured immediately as the battle starts, and that small army trying to absorb the energy from your team from a distance.

I totally dont understand this at all. We start the battle at the same time, I have surfer and Thanos, one has nanosecond reaction time, the other is pretty quick at the draw, just as quick as Larfleeze. Why would they be bombared before Larfleeze goes down to telepathy, its not like you are allowed to make construct before the match starts, and i know you are vulnerable to telepathy. In fact none of your team is immune to telepathy, matter manipulation, being dragged into astral plane.

Lets repost.

Here are scans courtesy of CitizenBane's Martian Manhunter Respect thread, from Blackest Night 08 ( http://www.comicvine.com/martian-manhunter/29-2047/martian-manhunter-respect-thread/92-704652/#39 )

Here larfleeze instantly going down to telepathy, instantly, no struggle whatsoever.

Mind controls hulk and makes him fight the Avengers

And in terms of ability take down opponent.

Annihilation #2: Thanos one-shots Phyla-Vell and tanks a psi-bolt from Moondragon, similar user similar durability as Quasar, although Quasar is more accomplised

Guardians of the Galaxy #24: Thanos kills an amped up Phyla-Vell (at the time she was the Herald of Oblivion) with but one shot

Thats not even going into the exotic display of TP thanos has, like this

Mindrapes Drax The Destroyer (Captain Marvel Volume 1, Issue 28) time sync mind wrap

I see no reason to believe Larfleeze is going to survive the initial onslaught, either via Warlock or Thanos, and note once Larfleeze is gone, no one there can take Thanos. He is the only one here capable of taking down Thanos.

Leaves your team short of the main powerhouse.

Over and above this, it includes Beta Ray Bill assaulting your team, as well as Quasar.

All the three guys in my team have shields. Thanos, Surfer and Warlock all of them have shield, with Warlock shield being the most impressive because it wasnt even slight affected by a supernova. Not seeing how BRB or Quasar can rip throught the shield nor do any of these guys have enough firepower to take down Thanos, and 1 blast provided it connects is going to have both of them in trouble. May not outright KO him, and a couple of blast certainly would.

I mean I know I pull the energy absorption thing a lot here, but I'm not stating this as coming from a single source, this is coming from multiple sources. These constructs were holding down the Guardians (multiple Guardians) and a group of lanterns, and preventing them from putting up a formidable defense. This was including against a magic user (Torquemada) whose spells they were eating up. So it's not exactly like these are some B-Rate energy absorbers/manipulators either.

Note how none of the attack strategy against Larfleeze is about physical attack. My team has plenty of way to take him down, telepathy, soul manipulation, matter manipulation etc etc etc. None of your team member has any defense against matter manipulation or soul manipulation. Leaves your team vulnerable.

So no i am not convinced Larfleeze is going to be doing anything, specially given his vulnerabilities.

Since you asked questions here are few i can ask:

1. I would need proof to suggest Quasar can prevent from being dragged into astral plane, as being a non telepath, he will be helpless there.

2. I would also need proof that BRB can survived being blast if Thanos teleports behind him.

3. Give my team has full knoweledge of yours, its obvious the only real threat to me is Larfleeze, so i really need something to suggest he is going to survive the initial onslaught, as i have 3 people all of whom have telepathy, all of whom have matter manipulation (Thanos's matter manipulation feats are not very impressive though), and 1 of whom has soul manipulation. Coz the moment Larfleeze is down, whoever from my team remains, Thanos/ Warlock or Thanos / Surfer can wreck your team.

#32 Posted by Killemall (18208 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: BTW just wanted to say something, there is going to be few things you wont agree with me, and a few things i wont agree with you. I think most of the points are already made and its about us trying to convince each other why one particular tactic should work, or why something shouldnt, but this part is better left for voters to decide dont you think, they are going to be more objective.

If there are no more arguments to be made, lets make one last post where you summaries your entire battle plan and i summaries my entire plan, anyone can go first and we both agree that we wont directly touch or argue against the last post anyone makes and then call for votes, to prevent whoever of us posts at the end from having an unfair advantage. Most people wont read the whole argument, so a summary of entire battle plan would give people a good way to decide who would win.

Our team is just equally matched to have a winner on anything apart from a good battle strategy, and that way we can likely get more voters. People normally would be put off if you see too long a debate because frankly most people dont want to read it.

Once the last part is done, put up on the OP that we have a summary of our strategy on this page and people can vote based on the summary if they like. Not sure if you would agree thats just my suggestion :)

#33 Posted by Lvenger (17906 posts) - - Show Bio

An awesome debate so far Killemall and Floopay! A pleasure to read such a well argued debate from both sides! (Translation: Please, please please can you ask me to vote? :P)

#34 Posted by Killemall (18208 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger said:

An awesome debate so far Killemall and Floopay! A pleasure to read such a well argued debate from both sides! (Translation: Please, please please can you ask me to vote? :P)

Sure :) i think the debate would be ending soon, we will also have a summary :) I will entire link you or PM you personally.

Just minor warning vote for me or beware Thanos's pimphand :p, just sayin'

#35 Edited by Floopay (8578 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall:

I'm going to go ahead and do my closing statement and my final rebuttal in the same page if that's alright.

Telepathy

Telepathy is a weakness for most Lanterns, but one thing I'd really like to point out is the 30 minute prep time my team has here. Now that might not sound that great, but it's already established that it is to be used for coming up with strategy. Which means whereas your team starts with full knowledge, they have no time to come up with a cohesive strategy. Which means they either have to

A) Run in and fight as individuals

B) Run in, fight, and slowly coordinate with one another throughout the fight

C) Create a rudimentary strategy and work their way from there

They lack any time to create a good, in depth strategy. Because of this, it's doubtful your team will instantly know who they will attack and in which manner. So whereas they might decide to use telepathy right off the bat, my team will already have executed the opening strategy of their attack. Now I have already proven that Larfleeze can summon entire squadrons of orange lanterns in an instant, and he can create them from at LEAST a mile away (as proven by the scan of him summoning the controllers, as well as ambushing the controllers), which is the starting distance of this match.

I haven't seen any scans proving Thanos, Silver Surfer, or Adam Warlock can maintain a telepathic assault, or even mind control somebody while under heavy attack. This is a big deal because Larfleeze's constructs alone have handled the Guardians of the Universe combined with Green Lanterns. Over and above this Larfleeze's Avatar starts off summoned as we agreed, and he can handle entire squadrons of Green Lanterns by himself. Over and above this.

Energy Absorption

Quasar and the Silver Surfer are about even in these terms. Yes, I will compromise there. However, Surfer has also shown that he can, in fact, be drained. It was proven by Doom, and proven by T'Challa with a device based off Doom Tech. Now Quasar might not match Doom Tech, but Larfleeze's constructs can drain energy attacks, magical energy, and light constructs as well, and they did this to the Guardians of the Universe (scan already provided). So Adam Warlock, and Silver Surfer are both in danger of having their power sources drained, and Adam is going to be SoL in terms of any spell or magics he wants to cast. This also means Thanos won't have any shields to fall back on as well.

Adam Warlock was drained by both Quasar and Vulcan (who has been drained by Havok), so it's not unreasonable to assume that Larfleeze stands a reasonable chance against that.

Beta Ray Bill also has energy absorption, just so you know. Enough to draw energy from Ego, and to absorb attacks from Stardust, Omega Ray, and the Silver Surfer.

Astral Plane

I do have an answer to that.

BFR: Disabled.... :P

I can provide more proof later if you really want, but yeah, Quasar can jump to the Quantum Zone and back, and Beta Ray Bill can teleport to Asgard and back with Stormbreaker.

It's also the reason I haven't made any argument to Quasar dragging someone into the Quantum Zone and draining them dry.

Soul Manipulation

I've already shown my defense against it, energy barriers that encompass his entire body. He's always got it up, almost all Lanterns keep their energy barrier up while they are in combat, it's not unreasonable to think he'd have it up. Unless you can provide evidence to suggest Adam can bypass energy barriers (which as of yet he hasn't) with his Soul Manipulating rays and touches, it's not unreasonable to think that Larfleeze is protected.

All the instances I've seen of soul manipulation show contact with the wearer

Another thing I'd like to point out is much of the soul manipulation feats from Adam showed the Soul Gem making contact with somebody in some way or another. The point of an energy barrier, is if the Soul Gem cannot make contact with the wearer, then does it still work? As for the Power Gem, Thanos's shields were able to derail the Fallen One when he had the Power Gem IIRC. So it's not like it's unreasonable to ask for something to show whether or not the Soul Gem can penetrate a valid form of defense.

Immortal and powerful spirits can resist the Soul Gem to some extent even without any outward signs of protection. Now, he obviously wasn't trying to rip out Thor's Soul or anything, he was using his Karmic Blast. But it does show that it can be resisted. Larfleeze is billions of years old, and has a very powerful soul

Quasar

I've focused heavily one Quasar from a defensive and a draining point of view, but I think I think he's been drastically underplayed as an offensive threat.

Quasar vs. Thor

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this was when Masterson had Mjonlir.

Quasar is mind controlled here, but he's busting out nunchukus, destroying the environment to get the upper hand, bubbling Thor from his weapon, and etc. It's a pretty impressive fight. This fight ends unconcluded, Quasar is being magically controlled here and snaps out of it.

Quasar is a teleporter in combat, and can casually throw out 100 megaton blasts with pretty good accuracy

Right between Thanos's ears (loses this fight though, but good shot)

Quasar can handle multiple drainings, constructs, energy attacks, and etc. at the same time

I can't find this full fight, but he's fighing Dark Phoenix, Moedrid the Mystic, and I think protecting the X-Men (shield on the left).

I always liked this fight, he redirected the funnel at Moerdrid from the Phoenix and blasts him with it :P

His shields have also blocked Galactus's attack, and it looks like he maintained his shields for an extended time against them.

I mean, if Galactus wants to break through a shield, generally he breaks through a shield. So this is pretty impressive.

I'm about to do Beta Ray Bill anyway so:

Beta Ray Bill and Quasar can perceive things moving multiple times the speed of light.

Beta Ray Bill

I've really underplayed him, but his job will be to handle whoever needs to be taken. He will always have an opponent, and he has the strength, speed, and power to do so

Beta Ray Bill takes a punch that shoots him to the planet

I haven't read this in ages, but I think this is Xenith.

caption
caption

Beta Ray Bill vs. Surfer

Beta Ray Bill loses, but he's shown that he is more than capable of blocking the Surfer's attacks, and redirecting them. Honestly, I've always thought he was around Surfer's level, and that this fight could've gone either way. Many have claimed this a stomp in Surfer's favor, but I think it's moreso an unconcluded fight tbh.

Beta Ray Bill vs. Silver Surfer

Beta Ray Bill gets the jump on him here, and not much happens. Moreso just showing that he's always been capable of harming the Silver Surfer

Within the span of a millisecond

As far as durability goes, he can tank a few shots from Thanos, and relatively well too.

Tanks a godblast from Thor.

Energy Absorption: Sucks energy out of Ego

Rest of the fight here if interested

Beta Ray Bill vs. Omega Ray (Asteroth)

After Beta Ray Bill, Stardust, and Alpha Ray revert her back to Omega Ray

Hacked his way out of the Midgaar Serpent. If that's not strength I dunno what is

Beta Ray Bill in Secret Invasion

Not necessary to show, but I like this scene :P

Super Skrull of Secret Invasion

Composed of Thundra, Titania, Volcana, and Battleaxe

Wields Stormbreaker (the clone does)....

Erects a barrier to block the energy blast from this thing

Tanks a shot from Galactus

Yeah, he's pretty beat up, but he's still alive here :P

Tanks an energy blast from Galactus

Larfleeze

I can't iterate enough how powerful an army is.

Tanks attacks from all the Guardians at once.

Final Thoughts

My tactics are the same as they've always been really.

  1. Larfleeze opens up with a group of constructs while sicking his avatar on your team. This essentially eliminates the fear of telepathy being used on Larfleeze, as none of your team will be able to maintain the concentration necessary to turn him or hassel him.
  2. Quasar will open up going against Silver Surfer and Adam Warlock. Switching between the two, draining Warlock, and blasting Surfer. Quasar will also cushion blows from Thanos when he gets a chance.
  3. Beta Ray Bill will join Quasar. His attacks are insanely powerful, he can also help drain Warlock, he can handle Silver Surfer for quite awhile, and he can tank shots from dang near anyone.
  4. Larfleeze's constructs will remove Thanos's shields, prevent Warlock from casting, drain as much energy as possible, and keep on the offensive. This should easily overwhelm your team and really ruin their day.

Realistically the teams are even, but even with full knowledge there's a lack of any sort of prep by your team. Because of this, your team has to rely on inferior strategy, but superior knowledge. My team is relatively knowledgable on yours, so it's not like anything is catching them too much by surprise. Over and above this, my team opens with a strategy that covers my teams weaknesses, and overwhelms your team.

  • Adam shouldn't last long really. He can't cast his spells because of Larfleeze's constructs and, it has been proven on multiple occasions that energy absorption is a problem for him.
  • Silver Surfer is an obvious powerhouse, but both Quasar and Beta Ray Bill can match him. With the addition of Larfleeze's constructs draining him, and the possibility of both Quasar and BRB attacking him (once Adam is down), it'll be tough for Surfer to pull a win here.
  • Thanos is the toughest, but Larfleeze has an army to handle him with. He can easily eliminate Thanos's shields, and his constructs have handled entire squadrons of Green Lanterns (his Avatar alone could do this), and his more powerful constructs were holding of the Guardians of the Universe. His attacks are powerful enough to shatter Hal Jordan's construct army like glass, and should prove effective against Thanos.
  • Quasar is a huge bonus here. Teleportation, Energy Absorbing, Great Melee, Energy Constructs (permanent without focusing on them), shields, 100 megaton blasts, etc. He's going to keep a heavy offensive, and with Larfleeze backing him, he should be a force to be reckoned with.
  • Beta Ray Bill is a severely underestimated character. Energy Absorption, Immense Strength (planet busting), Powerful Durability, Extremely fast, magical lightning, teleportation, and so much more are all part of his arsenal. He's bested Thor on multiple occasions, tanked blows from Thor while affected by some sort of madness, tanked god blasts, hunted Galactus (successfully), and is known for his ruthlessness. He's a heavy hitter, and Adam, or Surfer can't afford to take hits from him lightly. Thanos will undoubtedly cause some damage to him, but Galactus can't KO Bill in two shots (both Galactus feats I provided were from the same fight), so I'm doubting Thanos can do it in one.
  • Larfleeze is the most deadly here. Between his army summoning, constructs with their own mind, energy superiority (magical, cosmic, light, etc.), powerful blasts capable of shattering armies of constructs, extreme durability, and his energy barrier, he should be well protected. Telepathy is the only weakness for the enemy to take advantage of, but with an army to push against his foes, it's very doubtful they will hold the attention necessary to manipulate him in that capacity. Magical energy absorption will keep Adam's spells at bay, all his other energy absorption will take care of Thanos's shields, as well as keep Surfer drained. Thanos's only chance to harm him is to go in for melee attacks, as Agent Orange has already shown that energy attacks are less than useless against him. He's not only powerful as an individual, but he's powerful as a group.

My biggest advantage here is numbers. Larfleeze brings an army, and he's handled cosmic beings on multiple occasions, both the Controllers and the Guardians of the Universe were powerless against him. With that, it affords a lot more of a cushion against an opponent than what 3 people normally would. It's not 3 vs. 3, it can be as many as 3 vs. 12 in the first second of battle because of the prep time and the bit of knowledge my team has been provided. Moments later it can be 3 vs. 30 or higher, all of them sucking the life out of two of your team members, while simultaneously being assaulted by Quasar, Beta Ray Bill, and more Constructs.

And once Adam and Surfer are down, then it's Thanos vs. an army. Not to mention, if Surfer goes down, then he's coming back as a construct...which is a powerfully dangerous thought.

The same can be said for Adam.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#36 Edited by Killemall (18208 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: As agreed i am not going to nitpick or try and counter any of your strategies directly but put my strategies in details, once done i will come upon votes, you are welcome to call upon votes as well.

Prelude

My perk:

My Friend Uatu: The Watcher gives you total and complete knowledge on your opponents.

So as per the perk I know everything there is to know about his team. I know all their strengths as well as weakness. I will also know that the only real threat in his team is Larfleeze.

Furthermore, I will also know their vulnerabilities, and it fairly simple , his entire team is vulnerable to telepathy, soul manipulation and matter manipulation among others.

Given the fact that my team has ability to exploit these vulnerability, my strategy is simply to take them down using the said vulnerability.

Strategy

So the opening strategy would be to take out Larfleeze. Granted I understand I have knowledge but not prep, and I know their vulnerabilities and strengths it really should take any more than few seconds for my team, a team composed of 3 telepath, to communicate and decide Larfleeze is the big bad and let’s take him out.

I realize Larfleeze is too durable for a frontal attack so exploiting his weakness is the perfect strategy.

Telepathy

Firstly telepathy, while all 3 of my team members are telepaths, the most accomplished one is Thanos. I can get thanos to start the fight with a huge telepathic attack aimed at Larfleeze.

So lets start with scan showing Larfleeze is infact vulnerable to telepathy.

Blackest Knight 08 : Martian Manhunter takes down Larfleeze with telepathy, notice nowhere in the scan does Larfleeze , even for a second resists telepathy from Martian Manhunter.

^^ This scan is from CitizenBane, so let me take this opportunity to say I Love You Citizenbane, ;)

So Thanos can start off with something exotic, time-sync-mind-warp (which in the following list of scan is in no 1)

1. Mindrapes Drax The Destroyer (Captain Marvel Volume 1, Issue 28) - note that classic Drax did have some telepatic powers, he was able to telepathically talk to Captain Marvel and Iron Man, however i do not believe he has actually shown the ability to use it offensively.

2. A TP battle with Moondragon which Thanos wins, and give the fact that Moondragon is one of the most proficient telepath (she did not have mind gem here) it speaks volumes about Thanos telepathic abilities. - Captain Marvel, Volume 1, Issue 31

3. Read Gamora's Mind - Warlock and Infinity Watch, Volume 1, Issue 41

04. Mindraped a priest (i do not think his name was ever reveled - Avengers Celestial Quest - 02

(two of these are going to be a copy paste, of what i have posted above)

05. Fights and beats Kosmos (Beyonder/ The Maker) and mind rapes her (traps her limitless powers in her own human body)

06. Fought the Fallen One (apparently Galactus first herald after Tyrant) mind controlled him and made him his herald - Thanos 12

07. Mind controls hulk and makes him fight the Avengers

08. Thanos was able to telepathically make Gamora invisible/ undetectable to Adam Magus.

Among other things scan no 2 cements him being a telepath of pretty high order given he easily beat Moondragon, a pretty accomplished telepath in marvel .

Soul manipulation

Lets go in more depth here, coz this is my ace in the hole.

Adam Warlock has soul gem for this encounter, and frankly no one in his team has any sort of defense against soul manipulation. So Warlock can sit there are rip out a massive blast to absorb souls from his team, and it doesn’t even have to be focused on Larfleeze either, its not like either Beta Ray Bill, or Quasar have any sort of inherent defense against soul manipulation.

Power of Warlock 11: Adam Warlock rips the soul out of an entire army of Magus

Now lets consider this tactic more carefully, a full fledged blast like this is bound to touch at least one member of his team. Furthermore, if Larfleeze does in fact already create a bunch of construct, given that each of those constructs are in fact soul based, this should absorb any and all constructs it touches (note Floopay cannot created any construct until the fight begins). If it touches Larfleeze awesome, if it also touches Quasar double bonus, if it touches all three well flawless victory, but regardless of anyone whom it touches will be done for.

Also if you notice in the scan Adam Warlock after absorbing the said soul look perfectly ok, and doesnt look drained, which mean he could likely keep a more prolongued blast, increasing a chance of getting someone in the blast range. He also can do it again and again.

Now an interesting thing being question here is, Adam Warlock ability to rip the soul out of Larfleeze (assuming he is not already outright taken down by Thanos's telepathy) is his durability.

Green Lantern New Guardian 15: This is a little different from soul absorption, but it shows a star sapphire capable of reading and manipulating Larfleeze soul to some extent with Larfleeze unable to defend it

Trying my best not to mislead anyone reading this but the point Floopay is making is Larfleeze when he has the energy aura around him, should be able to defend this because Adam Warlock hasnt absorbed anyone with energy aura around it. I personally think the soul manipulation should work regardless of whether there is an energy aura around him, specially because, the aura was never intended to actually prevent soul manipulation.

In order to substantiate that, lets try and pull up some scans. Pretty much everyone in battle forum by now know what Infinity Gauntlet is and what Soul Gem individually does, and that is give you a complete control of someone soul. This assertion was actually tested by Mephisto, where Warlock claimed he had completely control over souls, while Mephisto insisted, in Hades, he would have better control than Adam Warlock. They fought and to quote Mephisto "he comprehensively beat me".

Adam Warlock/ Silver Surfer: Resurrection Adam Warlock beats Mephisto in Hades, awesome.

Furthermore, another small proof of some kind.

Thanos 02

So Thanos feels it might have been possible to fend off Galactus with Adam Warlock's soul gem alone, notice the first panel where Thanos himself says "my personal power is lilliputian compared to his might" shows , at least to me that had Galactus actually had soul Adam Warlock soul gem could have even challenge Galactus.

So i admit not a very convincing proof but then there really isnt a proof otherways either to suggest Larfleeze durability would help him against the power of soul gem. So i personally think it should work, and work well.

However, note if this fail, i always have the telepathy, one of the two should work should it.

Other Attacks

So once telepathy and soul manipulation is out of the way, and the biggest focus of both assult from both Thanos and Warlock being against Larfleeze i think Larfleeze should be taken down by now.

In terms of Beta Ray Bill and Quasar, i dont really need anything exotic to take them out because Surfer and Thanos are more than powerful enough to take either of them head on and beat them. Furthermore, i have no reason to believe i will come out of my initial telepathy/ soul manipulation attack without harm, of course my team is going to get hit and blasted, but note that Surfer free to try and fend of few attack. More importantly, the soul wave is omnidirection, there is no certainly that it wont hit Beta Ray Bill and Quasar as well, and they are not going to survive a hit either. Their soul can of course be manipulated, after all both of them have soul, Beta Ray Bill despite being a robot has a soul as confirmed during Thor: Dissemble and he apparently is a part of Ragnarok cycle of Asgard.

Now Surfer is faster than either beta Ray Bill and Quasar, and has a lot of versatility.

Lets start with Speed.

Marvel Comics Presents 01: Nanosecond reaction time

Silver Surfer Volume 3, issue 143: Another nanosecond reaction time

Matter manipulation

Defenders 13 Converts a un-named monster into atom

Silver Surfer Volume 4 Issue 14: Surfer repairs a dying earth

The first scan shows ability to turn someone into nothing but atoms, the second show surfer performing matter manipulation on a planetary scale, which helps me make the assertion that Surfer could likely rip anyone here into nothing but atoms despite both these guys being more durable than the un-named monster in question.

Ability to trap people in his board

Silver Surfer Volume 3, Issue 122: Traps Legacy (Genis Vell) in his board, he has done so to Jack of Hearts as well

Destroying a planet with energy discharge and creating a black hole.

Annihilation: Heralds of Galactus 03: Silver Surfer destroys a planet and creates a black hole with ease.

Also Surfer could simply drag people to astral plane, being a non telepath he is going to be helpless there.

Silver Surfer In Thy Name 03:

Also for the record, astral plane is not considered BFR because its the manipulation and dragging of Astral essence , or easily put an extention of telepathy rather than BFR.

The cuts from Marvel Glossary 1986 should explain this

In short what i am going at is, Surfer could individually take either one of them (Beta Ray Bill or Quasar) in a fight and come out on top.

As per Surfer being vulnerable to absorption, Surfer can use Astral plane to protect from that, reposting the above scan:

Silver Surfer In Thy Name 03:

As you can see a trapped Surfer, about to be drain, moves into astral plane which is apparently the source of his power making his absorption impossible here.

Furthermore, Quasar himself is vulnerable to being drained.

Nova Vol 4, Issue 14

Sufficient case made for Quasar, lets move to Thanos.

Thanos can take on anyone here on his lonesome, a case for his telepathy has already been made. Now lets look at impressive feats from Thanos that shows he should be able to take either of them in a fight.

A show of strength

Fights Classic Drax The Destroyer, a planet is destroyed in process and Drax is soundly defeated. (Iron Man Volume 1, Issue 55)

Fights Thor with Power Gem (do note that initially it was stated that Thor was suffering from Warrior Madness however the idea was refuted when Odin later reveals it was only a normal madness and not warrior madness and therefore is able to cure him, while warrior madness is incurable. Although that being said Thor in Blood and Thunder did beat Beta Ray Bill, Silver Surfer and Adam Warlock together with little problem and each of them individually are on the same level as Thor himself and both Beta Ray Bill (twice) and Silver Surfer (three times) have beaten Thor before) - Silver Surfer Volume 3, Issue 88

Fights a bunch of Asgardians and Odin - Warlock and Infinity Watch Volume 1, Issue 25

Fights Tyrant (a fight he could never hope to win) - Cosmic Powers Volume 1 , Issue 06

Beat Silver Surfer to near death, teleports him to death lair, fights a bunch of Death's lackeys, teleports back and let the Silver Surfer go away coz Thanos is a gentleman :p - Cosmic Power Unlimited 01

I could go on, but the point was Thanos himself has so many feats suggestion his superiority above either of the two here.

Conclusion

  1. Given a combined assult of telepathy and soul absorption Larfleeze should realistically been taken down fairly quickly in this fight, after all its a clear vulnerability to be exploited.
  2. Once Larfleeze is gone, whoever from my team remains are simply more than capable of beating anyone they face off from Floopay team.

So Lets ask Thanos, given the circumstances do you think, once Larfleeze has been taken out, can you actually be defeated by Floopay's team?

So i agree with Thanos here, without Larfleeze Floopay team doesnt have what it takes to beat Thanos at all :)

#37 Posted by Killemall (18208 posts) - - Show Bio

@Bo88gdan: @Esquire: @pooty: @dondave:@ToO_RaW: @Lvenger: @laflux: @Strider92: @HigorM:@Chaos Prime: @TheAcidSkull: @OmgOmgWtfWtf:@logy5000: @Nefarious:@jeanroygrant: The debate is over, its a friendly debate so you might want to read the whole thing if you like, however summary of both out arguments are at the end. Vote <for me> please :p

@czarny_samael666: Singling you out here, i know you are extremely well versed with all these character, as well as wanted to see a debate with Warlock in it. Whats your take on it, i would appreciate if you can add something on top of the debate, correct me if i have said anything wrong, of add if i missed something please. I want you to be more than just a voter, i want you to be a critic as i know you are very well verse with 5 of these characters (not too sure how much you know on Larfleeze)

:)

#38 Posted by God_Spawn (37185 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: SILENCE!!! I VOTE YOU!!

Moderator
#39 Posted by Killemall (18208 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

@Killemall: SILENCE!!! I VOTE YOU!!

Hehe lets just post this :)

#40 Posted by ToO_RaW (1077 posts) - - Show Bio

My vote will be up by midnight.

#41 Posted by SlimJ87D (9262 posts) - - Show Bio

Only read a quarter of the first page. Will read rest tomorrow

#42 Posted by Killemall (18208 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

#43 Posted by ToO_RaW (1077 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh yea. Forgot to vote.

I vote Killemall.

#44 Posted by Lvenger (17906 posts) - - Show Bio

Read most of the debate before being asked to vote. This was close but I vote for Killemall. IMO he addressed Floopay's arguments more soundly and with his solid point about Larfleeze being vulnerable to TP his argument flowed better from there.

#45 Posted by Killemall (18208 posts) - - Show Bio

Current votes:

Killemall : 03

Floopay : 00

Bump ;)

#46 Posted by I_am_Warlock (289 posts) - - Show Bio

Awesome thread, very friendly nice. Most of battle thread should be like this.

I vote for Killemall, but i think giving Adam Warlock soul gem for this battle was very unfair.

#47 Posted by wbr17 (176 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't know this characters but i read all the debate, it was a good one =)

So, if you wanna the opinion of an random bystander I would say:

I guess that Astral Plane can be consider BFR; and I presume that soul manipulation on Larfleeze would affect his slaves/constructs first (hipping them of him, maybe) what would get him pretty mad, and that's not cool. And looks like that they need to be tag for soul manipulation works... before vote, in character Thanos, Surfer, Warlock use TP and soul manipulation as the first attack?

#48 Edited by Killemall (18208 posts) - - Show Bio

@wbr17: In a tournament , with team, its generally presumed that the team work the way the person who is debating the team wants. Also Thanos is the one opening with TP at the beginning of the fight, rather than Surfer and Thanos has opened with TP and Warlock has used soul manipulation when convinced by Thanos, given all 3 are telepaths, and Warlock knowing how dangerous early elimination of Larfleeze is, and how Larfleeze isnt a good character, its understandable.

Also i did give the bio script of why i believed dragging someone into astral plane is not considered a BFR, since its not the person who is physically taken to astral plane but rather the astral essense, aka thought, the body remains just where it is. Its all but extention of telepathy. Not to mention astral plane wasnt the main attack.

You are welcome to vote, and any and all contributions are genuinely welcomed, all we ask is when you vote do so based on who you believe of the two debated better as opposed to which team you would think would win.

Its voting based on skill not whose team is better.

Hope to see you vote soon =)

#49 Posted by wbr17 (176 posts) - - Show Bio

thanks for the answers. I asked because wanna know if all was valid arguments," morals on" = "on character"? If yes, that would matter.

As I said before, it was a good debate. I don't know who would win in this confrontation, but i think team 1 would set the pace.

For debating skills... that's worst to decide lol but i'll give it to Killemall because of the consistence showing throw entire debate.

#50 Posted by Killemall (18208 posts) - - Show Bio

@wbr17: Fair enough and no problem. Floopay could have brought up that during the debate he didnt, although few of Floopay's strategy were out of character as well.

Thanks for the vote :)

Current Count

Killemall : 05

Floopay : 00