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#1 Posted by Floopay (7700 posts) - - Show Bio

Tournament Rules:

§ All parties involved in a debate must state they are ready for voting before votes are taken into consideration. Meaning anyone who votes prior to this point will be discounted.

§ Personal attack are prohibited. At any point, if you insult your fellow debater(s), and they feel personally insulted, I will ask you apologize for the jest. I'm not talking about joking around, or meaningless jabs at one another, I'm talking about over the line insulting and ridicule. If someone is offended, either apologize, or under the even someone really crosses a line, they will be flagged and kicked out of the tournament.

§ Feats must be backed up with scans, or at the very least sourced. For example, if you know something happened and what issue it's from, but don't have the scan, just source the issue. If you can find the scan, great. However, if you are just pulling information off a wiki, and can't find what issue it's actually from, then as far as I'm concerned it is irrelevant. Even sourcing the Story Arc would be fine.

§ Follow the character rules, battle rules, and the scenarios given.

§ As always, respect each other.

Now that that's out of the way.

The Battlefield:

Tokyo -

You each start at opposite ends of the intersection INSIDE of the respective buildings

Battle Conditions:

  1. Prep - None
  2. Morals On
  3. Bloodlust Off
  4. BFR Disabled
  5. Standard Equipment

  • Street Level+ - Zealot (WS)

  • Street Level+ - Backlash (WS)

  • Street Level+ - Scarlet Spider (Kaine)

  • Street Level+ - Black Tarantula

  • Street Level+ - Venom (Flash Thompson)

  • Street Level+ - Tomi Shishido (Gorgon)

Perks

Each team may choose a single perk!

"Only you, can prevent forest fires!" - Your team has a pet black bear to fight with them.

"Now you see me! Now you don't!" - All three of your team members get a single smoke grenade in their standard equipment.

"Not so standard now!" - Give a single team member a piece of equipment outside of their standard equipment. However, this piece of equipment must be something they have used before.

"Traps! Oh, the traps!" - You get a remote detonator for one of your team members. The explosive device is about the size of a pack of cigarettes, and the remote detonator itself is about the size of silver dollar. The size of the explosive is the same as a frag grenade.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#2 Posted by laflux (11096 posts) - - Show Bio

Seriously, this is a fight I would Pay to see. Looking forward to seeing the debate.

#3 Posted by Killemall (16971 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

Seriously, this is a fight I would Pay to see. Looking forward to seeing the debate.

Amen to that :)

I kind of like HigorM character better, dont know jiltch about who should be more powerful so before anything has been said i am hooting for HigorM :)

#4 Posted by ImTheDamnBatman (3514 posts) - - Show Bio

*pulls out popcorn*

#5 Posted by Killemall (16971 posts) - - Show Bio

@ImTheDamnBatman said:

*pulls out popcorn*

I want some too :(

#6 Posted by Strider92 (15275 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: Ill take the "Now you see me! Now you don't!" perk! It will fit into my master plan mwhahahahaha

#7 Posted by Floopay (7700 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@ImTheDamnBatman said:

*pulls out popcorn*

I want some too :(

I bought 50 dollars worth of popcorn for a friend's son's fundraiser. Needless to say, I could probably sit and wait for them to reply and watch this entire debate for the better part of a week and not run out of popcorn.... :P

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#8 Edited by Strider92 (15275 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: I guess I gotta wait for Higor to choose his perk before I can start?

#9 Posted by HigorM (3239 posts) - - Show Bio

This should be awesome! hope I can deliver the best debate possible! Even more knowing that I'll have a illustrious member cheering for my team. OMG!

@Floopay: great set up!

@Strider92: let´s do this! i sent a message to Floopay about one doubt, so i´m waiting his answer before I choose the perk ok?

#10 Posted by Lvenger (16064 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh man I'm looking forward to this debate! Definitely keeping an eye on this!

#11 Posted by Strider92 (15275 posts) - - Show Bio

@HigorM said:

@Strider92: let´s do this! i sent a message to Floopay about one doubt, so i´m waiting his answer before I choose the perk ok?

K no problem :)

#12 Posted by HigorM (3239 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92: @Floopay:

Okay so I will take this perk:

"Not so standard now!" - Give a single team member a piece of equipment outside of their standard equipment. However, this piece of equipment must be something theyhave used before.

and use it to give Gorgon his godkiller!

#13 Edited by Strider92 (15275 posts) - - Show Bio

@HigorM said:

@Strider92: @Floopay:

Okay so I will take this perk:

"Not so standard now!" - Give a single team member a piece of equipment outside of their standard equipment. However, this piece of equipment must be something they have used before.

and use it to give Gorgon his godkiller!

I had a feeling you where going to do that lol. I debated giving Zealot Kusar blades but eventually I went for smoke :p Guess we can kick off now. Good luck :)

I would say my team has the initial advantage. Backlash and Kaine tend to engage the enemy stealthy in the initial encounter and Zealot isn't a charging brawler. So I guess we can assume that neither team is stupid enough to run out into the open revealing their position? I know no members of my team would do this and i'm sure none of your team would do this either. This means the first part of the fight will likely be who reacts and finds the others first and in this case I think my team would find you first due to Scarlet Spider:

Due to his ability communicate with spiders he can scout huge distances in a very short period of time. There he scouted the whole of Houston city to find a bomb. If he can find 1 bomb in an entire city finding a group of 3 people in a 2 block radius should not be difficult.

As I said prior most of my team favors stealth. Scarlet Spider has the ability to turn invisible (which is generally how he initially engages his enemies) and Backlash is exceptionally stealthy. Both of these two like attacking their enemies stealthly and while Zealot has no stealth feats as such she has worked with Backlash on many occasions so knows how to function with him as a team:

Now you may say "Its going to hard to sneak up on Gorgon due his telepathy" and under normal circumstances you'd be right sneaking up on Gorgon would be very difficult given his ability to predict movements and sense other peoples presence via telepathy. However in this case it is of no use due to Backlash. Backlash is of Kherubim descent due to this he has their resistance to telepathy and it manifests as a psychic backlash (not sure if thats where he got his name from lol). The last time someone attempted telepathy around him they almost got their mind fried (Backlash was also not fighting at 100% in this scan):

So not only is Gorgon's ability to sense them coming and predict their movements rendered useless it will also cause Gorgon immense pain if he tries to use it. This leads me to believe that my team has the initial advantage and may even score a free hit or two.

What happens next is quite hard to gauge as anyone could end up fighting anyone this is just how I see it (feel free to disagree). Despite being stealthy in the initial part of the fight once engaged both Zealot and Kaine don't go on the offensive and attack the opponent directly. This is the same with Black Tarantula and Venom on your team. Neither of them hesitate to engage the enemy once they've found them. So I think its safe to say that these 4 will most likely end up fighting each other in any pairing however both Backlash and Gorgon are more tactful and will most likely end up fighting each other due to their similar style of combat.

This would be a tough fight for Slayton but not one he couldn't win. I'll give you a quick run-down of who he is as he's a largely unknown character for people who don't read Wildstorm. Marc Slayton is over 3 thousand years old and has trained in being everything from a ninja, knight, military intelligence operative, USAF Sergeant Rescue Commando, USAF Colonel and a special forces operative. More impressively he was also the Stormwatch drill master and leader of WildCorps. Due to the he is considered to be the best hand to hand fighter in Wildstorm (which is a big achievement considering Wildstorm is home to people like Midnighter and Zealot). Due to his Kherubim descent he also has superhuman stats most notably his speed and agility:

Backlash's agility isn't far off Spider-man's given how easily he dodges bullets and the caliber of enemy that he fights. If dodging lasers wasn't hard enough Backlash was able to do this while fighting off two members of Stromwatch:

Despite the fact that Slayton is a very lethal hand to hand fighter his main weapons are a pair of pisonic projections in the form of whips that extend from his wrists. Due to the fact that they are creations of his mind their movement is as fast as Backlash can think (look at the 4th scan up there it states it) so they're damn fast.

When this comes to a close quarter fight Backlash's whips and incredible hand to hand come into play. I'll put into perspective how good Backlash is in hand to hand. Zealot managed to go for a 3 hour hand to hand fighting spree with Midnighter (i'm guessing as most people know who Midnighter is I don't have to explain why this is impressive):

and yet both times she went up against Slayton it was clear he was the better fighter. In their first encounter Backlash put her down in only a few moves and in their second (which was a sparring match) the observers noted that Backlash was the better fighter going as far as to say the best he'd ever seen:

This would make a fight between him and Gorgon very very heated. Against any normal opponent Gorgon with Godkiller is a scary thing however due to Mark's misting landing a hit will be hard. Due to his gen-factor Backlash is capable of rendering himself intangible by turning into mist for short periods of time. I will clarify that Backlash cannot do this for a long period of time and cannot stay in that form for very long but what it does do is allow him to take his enemies by surprise by rendering their attacks temporarily useless:

This means Slayton can take quite few of Gorgon's attacks with no ill effects. This doesn't mean he wins but it does mean that Gorgon will be hard pressed to land a hit. Due to this ability it also means the it is impossible to incapacitate Marc as he can mist out of anything (so Venom's webbing if he manages to break away won't help here).

Ontop of these abilities he has pisonic whips that I mentioned earlier. These whips can be used to ensnare, burn and even kill his enemy:

They are strong enough to 1-shot a military APC and more impressively hold Helspont in place very temporarily (the reason that it is impressive is that no matter how temporarily it held him Helspont is a Mr. Majestic league villain):

So Gorgon is going to have to contend with Backlash's incredible fighting ability, superhuman stats, the pisonic whips that can move as fast as Marc can think and Marc's misting. To top it off Gorgon won't be able to predict Backlash's movements as he can't use telepathy without getting mind-fried. Thus I believe this is a fight Backlash can win.

Now Venom and Black Tarantula Vs Zealot and Kaine will be interesting. Recently Kaine has taken to using his stingers and burning touch in combat more:

Although both Black Tarantula and Venom are very resistant to blunt trauma they aren't so good with penetrative damage. During his appearance in DareDevil Black Tarantula said that penetrative damage from the bullets hurt like hell so while he may have been able to beat down Spider-man, Kaine's stingers and burning touch means he's a whole new kettle of fish. Venom also showed that he was weaker against penetrative damage in his fight with Kraven for example.

Zealot is very very skilled with blades and as I showed earlier she was able to match Midnighter in hand to hand so and given Midnighters battle computer and superhuman speed thats a very good feat. She then went on to hold her own in a sword fight with him:

She was also able to fight Nemesis on equal terms despite Nemesis having telepathy that allows her to predict her every movement:

Nemesis was able to punk Midnighter and Hawksmoor which shows the level of skill required to fight one on one with her:

Now the reason I picked the perk "Now you see me! Now you don't!" is because it allows my team to break away if they do get in trouble. If they suddenly find themselves on the ropes dropping a smoke grenade will make finding Backlash nigh-impossible if he mists and it would also give Scarlet Spider a chance to re-engage his invisibility and pull a sucker punch like he did here:

So while I think this would be a good fight. I think my teams versatility and stealthy approach will prove to be the key to winning this. Those smoke grenades also mean i'll get 1 clean shot at launching a second surprise attack perhaps allowing my team to score some more free hits which could prove to be your teams downfall.

#14 Posted by HigorM (3239 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92: dammit! looks like you had all that triggered!!

i´ll try to reply as soon as possible okay?

#15 Posted by Strider92 (15275 posts) - - Show Bio

@HigorM: Yeah don't worry about it. I'm debating with k4t's at the moment too. So it doesn't matter if it takes you a day or two to respond. It'll give me time to think up an attack plan for him :D.

#16 Posted by HigorM (3239 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92: First I would like to say that for me it is an honor to discuss with a member as experienced as you are. This is one of my biggest challenges since I started to participate effectively in the battle forum.

Okay. Enough talk and let's get down to business..

This is how I see this fight will happen. I have to say that both teams have very experienced characters with countless fights, so I do agree with you that they´re not going to engage in a fight with open chest, they´ll most likely study each other before making any movement. But I'll have to respectfully disagree with you about your initial advantage through stealth skills. It´s like my team is completely inexperienced in this area, first we have Black Tarantula who is above all a ninja that was trained by The Hand, so I believe that his on par with this particular skill.

Next we have Venom (Flash) who is a secret agent of the government, not to mention specific abilities from the symbiote like camouflage or to shapeshift creating disguises for himself mimicking clothing up to and including complete change of appearance, such as an A.I.M. agent's uniform. Also, in the past the symbiote have demonstrated the ability to sense the presence of other beings within a certain distance. Not to mention that it reacts with incredible reflexes independently of the will of the host.

Finally the last but not least member of my team: the dreaded Gorgon! What can I say about him? A powerfull mutant with a genius level intelect, member of both Hand and HYDRA. One of the most highly skilled characters in the entire Marvel Universe. Even without using his psychic abilities Tomi Shishido has enough skill to defeat both Wolverine and Elektra at the same time even after they had the advantage of preparation and a surprise attack. So I hardly believe that your team can be successfull with any kind of attempt to sneak uppon my team members and deliver a surprise attack. Gorgon was the one that waited Logan make his moves before sucessfully counter strike him, he was the one that surprise Wolverine himself with stealth and speed. Not to mention that he is perfectly capable of dodging any kind of attack and even if someone manage to tag him, his healing factor will be there for him. In fact, that´s the first advantage I see that my team have in relation yo your team, the healing factor, the ability to recover from near fatal injuries and keep fighting.

Suprising Wolverine with speed and stealth:

vs Elektra & Wolverine

Scarlet Spider may be sucessfull at engaging his enemies (most of them random) invisible but here he is facing top level characters, with various forms of detection (symbiote perception), in matter of fact Gorgon would be hard as hell to be detected because since his last ressurrection he no longer possess a heartbeat. So I think that that kind of thing (surprise attacks) won´t happen in this fight. Not to mention that he possess the mighty Godkiller! He can take a serious damage and keep fighting, but I hardly believe that any of your team members can survive a hit from his sword, at best they would be incapacitated, even if temporarily, that would be fatal considering his nature, considering that since he has already tagged a speedster before, It´s hard to believe that anyone would scape from him in close range.

As far as your perk (smoke grenades) I personally do not think of much value, since both Gorgon and Venom doesn´t really need to see, so that could be a dangerous game for your team members to play since they might be caught by surprise due to the ineffectiveness of that move, being counter attacked in a vulnerable position that they are not expecting..

Black Tarantula

In addition to being a highly skilled martial artist, Black Tarantula has demonstrated superhuman agility and strength, known limit of 25 tons, nearly bullet proof skin and concussive beams from eyes. So he got close and mid range attacks at his disposal. He was the one who beat the crap out of Spider-Man, meaning that he can fight characters with such speed/agility without much problem.

vs Spider-Man

Rematch against spidey.

*Note that he was cleary holding back

So Carlos is strong enough to land some pretty hard hits, agile enough to keep up with anyone here, has an insane durability and resistance to injuries and if compared to Kaine he is clearly more skilled then him. Kaine is going to have a hard time trying to hit Carlos, it's not like he is going to stand there waiting for the strikes without any reaction. So we have to be very optimistic to think that this method will work properly. He can be reached and hurt by Scarlet Spider stingers, but not witouth fighting back since he is known for the durability/resistance part. How many times Kaine used those stingers in a effective way against skilled enemies? How is that different to gunfire?

Getting shot:

You said burning touch? Tell me how that´s going to work against someone that already resisted to this:

The whole burning thing is not going to work at all..

Venom (Flash)

This guy has shown some great feats since the very beginning, if in one hand you have just Flash Thompson and his military training and experience, in the other you have a symbiote that finally finds a host with strong will which resulted in the bonding. In the first mission we see Flash fighting several soldiers without effort , like there were nothing, then he manage to save people and yet fights Jack O'lantern. The next mission he faces none other than Kraven the Hunter, in his own environment! Not to mention that after that he fought three other symbiotes: Anti-Venom, Carnage and Toxin. Not to mention his fight against Red Hulk, so he is well prepared to anything that may cross his way.

First mission:

vs Kraven:

**I will finish this post soon enough..

#17 Edited by Strider92 (15275 posts) - - Show Bio

@HigorM said:

This is how I see this fight will happen. I have to say that both teams have very experienced characters with countless fights, so I do agree with you that they´re not going to engage in a fight with open chest, they´ll most likely study each other before making any movement. But I'll have to respectfully disagree with you about your initial advantage through stealth skills. It´s like my team is completely inexperienced in this area, first we have Black Tarantula who is above all a ninja that was trained by The Hand, so I believe that his on par with this particular skill.

Perhaps I phrased myself wrong I wasn't saying your team had no experience in stealth what I meant to say was that despite your team being adept in this area that fact the teams start in opposite buildings means Kaine's ability to communicate with spiders means that he will most likely locate your team before your team does mine and with Kaine's invisibility and Backlash's misting I see them having a much more versatile approach.

@HigorM said:

Next we have Venom (Flash) who is a secret agent of the government, not to mention specific abilities from the symbiote like camouflage or to shapeshift creating disguises for himself mimicking clothing up to and including complete change of appearance, such as an A.I.M. agent's uniform. Also, in the past the symbiote have demonstrated the ability to sense the presence of other beings within a certain distance. Not to mention that it reacts with incredible reflexes independently of the will of the host.

Last I heard the Venom symbiote had essentially been lobotomized/drugged hence the reason it isn't as powerful as Brock was. While I agree a symbiote under normal circumstances is capable of this sort of reaction do you have one of Flash's symbiote performing a similar reaction feat? As thats Brock as anti-Venom yes? The only reason I ask is I don't follow the current Venom series and it the Venom symbiote has apparently been depowered it would stand to reason that an automatic reaction like this may be hard to accomplish if the symbiote really is drugged and lethargic.

@HigorM said:

Finally the last but not least member of my team: the dreaded Gorgon! What can I say about him? A powerfull mutant with a genius level intelect, member of both Hand and HYDRA. One of the most highly skilled characters in the entire Marvel Universe. Even without using his psychic abilities Tomi Shishido has enough skill to defeat both Wolverine and Elektra at the same time even after they had the advantage of preparation and a surprise attack. So I hardly believe that your team can be successfull with any kind of attempt to sneak uppon my team members and deliver a surprise attack. Gorgon was the one that waited Logan make his moves before sucessfully counter strike him, he was the one that surprise Wolverine himself with stealth and speed. Not to mention that he is perfectly capable of dodging any kind of attack and even if someone manage to tag him, his healing factor will be there for him. In fact, that´s the first advantage I see that my team have in relation yo your team, the healing factor, the ability to recover from near fatal injuries and keep fighting.

Suprising Wolverine with speed and stealth:

Creeping up on Wolverine is an admirable feat and i'm not going to take that away from Gorgon. However there was more to it than that. Gorgon did not simply rush in and cut Wolverine up. Prior to this Wolverine had to fight his way through an army of hand ninja's and was under the effects of their drugs. Gorgon also took the time to study how Wolverine moved and fought as he says here:

Suffice to say that while sneaking up on Wolverine and taking him by surprise is impressive it was Gorgon's plan to watch him fight and tire him out so he could strike. This a luxury he does not have here. He won't be fighting any tired or slightly drugged members and he doesn't have the advantage of knowing how they fight.

While his healing factor is very effective against physical damage this is not the way Backlash can hurt him. If Backlash does get Gorgon ensnared in his pis-whips he can increase the intensity on the pisonic energy flowing through it to lethal amounts:

So while Gorgon's healing factor may heal him from physical damage from stab wounds and physical damage I doubt it would be as effective against something that also causes pisionic pain at the same time. The woman in this picture was possessed by a deamonite so it shows that his coild are capable of inflicting damage beyond that simple physical damage. If Slayton did manage to get Gorgon caught in his coils which is quite possible given the speed these coils move at (see last post) he could poor on the pisonic power and hold him for an incapacitation which going by the OP would count as a win.

@HigorM said:

Finally the last but not least member of my team: the dreaded Gorgon! What can I say about him? A powerfull mutant with a genius level intelect, member of both Hand and HYDRA. One of the most highly skilled characters in the entire Marvel Universe. Even without using his psychic abilities Tomi Shishido has enough skill to defeat both Wolverine and Elektra at the same time even after they had the advantage of preparation and a surprise attack. So I hardly believe that your team can be successfull with any kind of attempt to sneak uppon my team members and deliver a surprise attack.

While Wolverine and Elektra did have the advantage of prep they didn't have the complete element of surprise due to Gorgon's telepathic ability to predict attacks. He was aware they were about to be attacked just before it happened as he says here:

However in this case if he tries to use his telepathy he will get a pisonic backlash from Backlash (see last post) he won't have the advantage of knowing when they are going to attack like he did against Wolverine and Elektra.

@HigorM said:

Scarlet Spider may be sucessfull at engaging his enemies (most of them random) invisible but here he is facing top level characters, with various forms of detection (symbiote perception), in matter of fact Gorgon would be hard as hell to be detected because since his last ressurrection he no longer possess a heartbeat. So I think that that kind of thing (surprise attacks) won´t happen in this fight. Not to mention that he possess the mighty Godkiller! He can take a serious damage and keep fighting, but I hardly believe that any of your team members can survive a hit from his sword, at best they would be incapacitated, even if temporarily, that would be fatal considering his nature, considering that since he has already tagged a speedster before, It´s hard to believe that anyone would scape from him in close range.

While tagging a speedster is indeed a good feat Spider-man has also hit Quicksilver in the past. Reaction speed and physical speed are two different things. While the heartbeat is a good mode of staying hidden none of my team track by using heartbeats anyway so this is a mute point.

I disagree that any of my team would be one-shotted by Godkiller. Backlash can avoid a few attacks by misting himself (see last post) and Kaine is far from made of paper the amount of damage he received from Carnage shows he can take some serious stab wounds and keep fighting:

Now you may argue that perhaps he doesn't have the reaction speed required to dodge or react to Gorgon. However Scarlet Spider has incredible combat refelexes. He was able to catch an arrow fired at him from behind and as he has no spider-sense he had no way of knowing that this was happening. That says something about his reactions. Even more more impressively he was able to react to 4 bullets after they had been fired. Kaine pinned a guy to the ground while the bullets where in the air and was still quick enough to pick the guy back up and use him as human shield before the bullets hit. That is an incredible reaction feat:

@HigorM said:

As far as your perk (smoke grenades) I personally do not think of much value, since both Gorgon and Venom doesn´t really need to see, so that could be a dangerous game for your team members to play since they might be caught by surprise due to the ineffectiveness of that move, being counter attacked in a vulnerable position that they are not expecting.

The perk has the value in the sense that say for hypothetical reasons my team is having trouble it allows them to break away and re-engage your team on their terms. Not only that it makes Backlash that much harder as telling what is smoke from the smoke grenade and what is Slayton is that much harder. Imagine trying to find someone who can turn into smoke when smoke grenades are going off everywhere it will make detecting Backlash before he strikes nigh-impossible:

Not mention Backlash can project this ability onto his allies so if they are put in a position where one of the other team-members needs to break with the smoke screen up he could dematerealize them allowing my team to launch a surprise attack. Ontop of this Backlash was trained as a ninja:

Trying to find someone who can turn into smoke for brief periods of time in a smoke screen is really hard. Finding someone who can turn into smoke and is also trained a ninja in a smoke screen is incredibly hard! Throw in Scarlet Spider's invisibility the chances of them not taking the other team unawares are low.

@HigorM said:

In addition to being a highly skilled martial artist, Black Tarantula has demonstrated superhuman agility and strength, known limit of 25 tons, nearly bullet proof skin and concussive beams from eyes. So he got close and mid range attacks at his disposal. He was the one who beat the crap out of Spider-Man, meaning that he can fight characters with such speed/agility without much problem.

Against Spider-man BT did very well however Kaine is a different kettle of fish who does not fight or indeed have the same powerset as Spider-man.

@HigorM said:

So Carlos is strong enough to land some pretty hard hits, agile enough to keep up with anyone here, has an insane durability and resistance to injuries and if compared to Kaine he is clearly more skilled then him. Kaine is going to have a hard time trying to hit Carlos, it's not like he is going to stand there waiting for the strikes without any reaction. So we have to be very optimistic to think that this method will work properly. He can be reached and hurt by Scarlet Spider stingers, but not witouth fighting back since he is known for the durability/resistance part. How many times Kaine used those stingers in a effective way against skilled enemies? How is that different to gunfire?

Actually it is Carlos's MO to stand and take hits your own scans showed that. Here for example he even says that he takes hits on purpose to put himself in position:

If that wasn't enough proof here's more:

It is very likely that Carlos will sit back and let Kaine hit him without reacting considering he does it a lot.

This type of tactic may work on someone like Spider-man who focuses on blunt force damage but not on someone like Kaine who also uses penetrative damage with his stingers:

Kaine even used said stingers to lobotomize Carnage so if Black Tarantula does give him a free hit (which given how he fights is a very big possibility) Scarlet Spider won't hesitate to go for a place like BT's eyes or head.

@HigorM said:

You said burning touch? Tell me how that´s going to work against someone that already resisted to this:

The whole burning thing is not going to work at all..

There is a difference between localized burning and running through fire like that. Take Carnage for example. Carnage is capable of huge feats of healing and burning, cutting an slicing doesn't cause him any permanent damage however if applied accordingly it can still cause him some problems:

Kaine's touch temporarily blinded him and Carnage used the symbiote to push Kaine back so he could recover. Black Tarantula doesn't have a symbiote to protect him so if Kaine did land his burning touch on his face there is a high chance he would be temporarily blinded and given how he likes to tank damage this is a likely outcome and gives Kaine opportunity to do some real damage with those stingers of his. Which I think would lead to BT's downfall.

@HigorM said:

Venom (Flash)

This guy has shown some great feats since the very beginning, if in one hand you have just Flash Thompson and his military training and experience, in the other you have a symbiote that finally finds a host with strong will which resulted in the bonding. In the first mission we see Flash fighting several soldiers without effort , like there were nothing, then he manage to save people and yet fights Jack O'lantern. The next mission he faces none other than Kraven the Hunter, in his own environment! Not to mention that after that he fought three other symbiotes: Anti-Venom, Carnage and Toxin. Not to mention his fight against Red Hulk, so he is well prepared to anything that may cross his way.

First mission:

vs Kraven:

**I will finish this post soon enough..

While Kraven is a formidable opponent he is not in the same league as Zealot and unlike Brock Flash does a susceptibility to stabbing attacks shown in your very scans. Flash's blunt trauma resistance is good I won't take that away but stabbing/penetrative is another matter. As I've aldready shown Zealot is capable of going toe on toe with Midnighter (see last post) her combat reflexes and skill with a blade are much better than Kraven's in those scans it even says that Midnighter is avoiding hitting her blades as they will slice straight through.

She was also able to throw Mr. Majestic back denoting Superhuman strength. First things first Zealot stands 0% chance in a fight against Majestic he would rip her head off before she could even blink if he wanted. This is just to show she is super-humanly strong:

She is also fast enough to take on multiple Coda Warrior she trained while dodging gunfire:

If that wasn't proof enough of her speed in the Summer special she threw an apple into the air and killed her opponents then caught it before it hit the ground:

Zealot is skilled enough (proven by her fight with Midnighter), strong enough and fast enough to give Venom a hell of a lot of trouble. Also as this is Morals On. Flash will not be Vulking out easily. So I see Zealot being able to cut him up very badly.

*phew that was long. I'm gonna go get a drink lol*

#18 Posted by HigorM (3239 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92 said:

I will I'll divide the answer for easy viewing okay?

@Strider92 said:

1. Perhaps I phrased myself wrong I wasn't saying your team had no experience in stealth what I meant to say was that despite your team being adept in this area that fact the teams start in opposite buildings means Kaine's ability to communicate with spiders means that he will most likely locate your team before your team does mine and with Kaine's invisibility and Backlash's misting I see them having a much more versatile approach.

Okay, I just want to make things clear and define that your team doesn´t have stealth advantage, there´s no way someone have that kind of advantage against a team that is knowledge in that area too, and even if Kaine locate my team first, I can´t see that as a significant advantage, not when your enemy is as skilled and IMHO more skilled then you are, I´m talking about Black Tarantula here, if he manage to engage in a fight against the Scarlet Spider, how different is it going to be from the Spider-Man fights, where Carlos was clearly holding back, Peter tryied everything against him and the guy doesn´t even show a single scratch. How much more agile is Kaine if compared to Peter? I know his stats surpass him, but that much to make a huge difference, and even then wouldn´t Black Tarantula be prepared to deal with him? And like you said, Kaine´s invisibility is not lasting forever so I honestly don´t see that as a determinant factor here.

2. Last I heard the Venom symbiote had essentially been lobotomized/drugged hence the reason it isn't as powerful as Brock was. While I agree a symbiote under normal circumstances is capable of this sort of reaction do you have one of Flash's symbiote performing a similar reaction feat? As thats Brock as anti-Venom yes? The only reason I ask is I don't follow the current Venom series and it the Venom symbiote has apparently been depowered it would stand to reason that an automatic reaction like this may be hard to accomplish if the symbiote really is drugged and lethargic.

I would have to do a research because off my mind right now I can´t remember a instance where Venom Flash perform a similar feat like that one, but there was an instance where the Venom symbiote protected Eddie Brock when Gargan tried to kill him, and at first Flash wasn´t fully bonded with the Venom symbiote, that´s why he needed both sedatives and strong will, but when Flash gets angry he loses control of the symbiote and conversely it begins to control him, and that´s dangerous for your team because when he looses control he becomes far larger and much stronger, much more savage and kills almost anything in sight, he´s just a beast in that state. And I dont doubt that this will happen sooner or later in this fight.

from Venom #9

from Venom #12

3. Creeping up on Wolverine is an admirable feat and i'm not going to take that away from Gorgon. However there was more to it than that. Gorgon did not simply rush in and cut Wolverine up. Prior to this Wolverine had to fight his way through an army of hand ninja's and was under the effects of their drugs. Gorgon also took the time to study how Wolverine moved and fought. Suffice to say that while sneaking up on Wolverine and taking him by surprise is impressive it was Gorgon's plan to watch him fight and tire him out so he could strike. This a luxury he does not have here. He won't be fighting any tired or slightly drugged members and he doesn't have the advantage of knowing how they fight.While his healing factor is very effective against physical damage this is not the way Backlash can hurt him. If Backlash does get Gorgon ensnared in his pis-whips he can increase the intensity on the pisonic energy flowing through it to lethal amounts.So while Gorgon's healing factor may heal him from physical damage from stab wounds and physical damage I doubt it would be as effective against something that also causes pisionic pain at the same time. The woman in this picture was possessed by a deamonite so it shows that his coild are capable of inflicting damage beyond that simple physical damage. If Slayton did manage to get Gorgon caught in his coils which is quite possible given the speed these coils move at (see last post) he could poor on the pisonic power and hold him for an incapacitation which going by the OP would count as a win.

I would agree with you if he had done it only one time, but he trashed Wolverine 3 times in a row, one of them before being exploded by a rocket and with Elektra to help Logan and most important, he had time to study Tomi, to prepare himself for him, he start the fight giving everything he got at disposal at the time but that´s just wasn´t enough and the outcome was the same in all three fights. Gorgon only watch one fight of him, there´s no way he can learn in a few seconds all Wolverine moves and predict everything he may use against him, not if we´re talking about a guy who mastered most of the known martial arts in the world with centuries of experience. Gorgon may not know how Backlash fights by so doesn´t Slayton, I doubt that he ever faced an enemy like that, fast, agile and skille as he is. Gorgon has many ways to prevent being reached by those coils by dodging or cutting them with the sword, he can do it while close the gap and land some nasty cuts in his body, I doubt he would recover from that. Another possibility here for Gorgon is his stone stare, he manage to use it more then one instance, against some random characters and against Wolverine where they use a plot device to find a way to defeat the character, so I doubt Backlash would be expecting that or if he even have any ways to counter it or prevent to be affected by this power.

4. While Wolverine and Elektra did have the advantage of prep they didn't have the complete element of surprise due to Gorgon's telepathic ability to predict attacks. He was aware they were about to be attacked just before. However in this case if he tries to use his telepathy he will get a pisonic backlash from Backlash (see last post) he won't have the advantage of knowing when they are going to attack like he did against Wolverine and Elektra.

In the scan what is clear for me is that he felt that his base was under attack, it may have come to this conclusion through other ways, he doens´t said that Wolverine and Elektra was about to jump on him, i´m sorry but that´s is not written or implied in the scan, it´s obvious that if someone attack the place where your are you would automatically go on high alert, still he was hit by the explosion, and then cut and stabbed multiple times in different ways by both Logan and Elektra after starting to counter their attacks. Gorgon have other ways to sense and perceive his enemies, you know that he is blind right?

5. While tagging a speedster is indeed a good feat Spider-man has also hit Quicksilver in the past. Reaction speed and physical speed are two different things. While the heartbeat is a good mode of staying hidden none of my team track by using heartbeats anyway so this is a mute point. I disagree that any of my team would be one-shotted by Godkiller. Backlash can avoid a few attacks by misting himself (see last post) and Kaine is far from made of paper the amount of damage he received from Carnage shows he can take some serious stab wounds and keep fighting. Now you may argue that perhaps he doesn't have the reaction speed required to dodge or react to Gorgon. However Scarlet Spider has incredible combat refelexes. He was able to catch an arrow fired at him from behind and as he has no spider-sense he had no way of knowing that this was happening. That says something about his reactions. Even more more impressively he was able to react to 4 bullets after they had been fired. Kaine pinned a guy to the ground while the bullets where in the air and was still quick enough to pick the guy back up and use him as human shield before the bullets hit.

Spider-Man tagging Quicksilver was ridiculous, first of all, even Angel was able to tag him, that´s not a real feat, he keep running in circles like a moron and all Peter did was put his arm in the way, seriously? Reaction and physical speed are different indeed but Gorgon have both, and I didn´t say that your team would not be able to find Gorgon, I just say that he couldn´t be find by that way. About the godkiller, what I meant is that being one-shotted is a possibility, since that´s an unusual blade in the hands of a high skilled wielder. The misting thing is pretty good against random characters but we´re talking about Gorgon here, he´s not a novice, he got the sword and ways to counter it with martal arts, just like he did against Phobos (another high skilled character who manage to be a God, bullet-timer and yet was defeated by him). Tomi got some great reaction feats as well, like shown below..

Slicing three bullets in the air after being shot..

vs Phobos..

6. The perk has the value in the sense that say for hypothetical reasons my team is having trouble it allows them to break away and re-engage your team on their terms. Not only that it makes Backlash that much harder as telling what is smoke from the smoke grenade and what is Slayton is that much harder. Imagine trying to find someone who can turn into smoke when smoke grenades are going off everywhere it will make detecting Backlash before he strikes nigh-impossible.Not mention Backlash can project this ability onto his allies so if they are put in a position where one of the other team-members needs to break with the smoke screen up he could dematerealize them allowing my team to launch a surprise attack. Ontop of this Backlash was trained as a ninja. Trying to find someone who can turn into smoke for brief periods of time in a smoke screen is really hard. Finding someone who can turn into smoke and is also trained a ninja in a smoke screen is incredibly hard! Throw in Scarlet Spider's invisibility the chances of them not taking the other team unawares are low.

Smokes won´t make any difference for Gorgon, that guy is blind.. With or without smoke that doesn´t matter.. It won´t prevent or help your team getting away from the fight, Venom also have ways to notice upcoming enemies like said before. I honestly believe that none of your team members will ever have any time to take a break, they will be in a hard fight all the time, and what I see as a real advantage in a long duration fight is that my team is clearly superior in two areas: healing factor and damage soak. All my 3 members can take a lot of hits and keep going, as well as recover from near fatal injuries in a matter of seconds, so during the battle I believe my team have the advantage to mantain the performance and remain standing in the end.

7. Actually it is Carlos's MO to stand and take hits your own scans showed that. Here for example he even says that he takes hits on purpose to put himself in position. If that wasn't enough proof here's more. It is very likely that Carlos will sit back and let Kaine hit him without reacting considering he does it a lot. This type of tactic may work on someone like Spider-man who focuses on blunt force damage but not on someone like Kaine who also uses penetrative damage with his stingers. Kaine even used said stingers to lobotomize Carnage so if Black Tarantula does give him a free hit (which given how he fights is a very big possibility) Scarlet Spider won't hesitate to go for a place like BT's eyes or head.

He didn´t take any hit without fight back. He doesn´t stand still doing nothing, he was always moving forward just like Juggernaut, moving, breaking and smashing everything Peter tried to use against him, he was obviously too much for him to handle no matter what, like I said, he was not even trying. It´s wrong to compare a fight against a droid to someone like Kaine, I doubt he would wait him to do whatever he wants before making any move, he may take some damage yes, but not without strinking back, he does fight mostly with his fists but he can also use the eye beams (that may inflict some damage) against his opponent as a surprise element, and I hardly believe his enemy would get away unharmed from him.

8. There is a difference between localized burning and running through fire like that. Take Carnage for example. Carnage is capable of huge feats of healing and burning, cutting an slicing doesn't cause him any permanent damage however if applied accordingly it can still cause him some problems.Kaine's touch temporarily blinded him and Carnage used the symbiote to push Kaine back so he could recover. Black Tarantula doesn't have a symbiote to protect him so if Kaine did land his burning touch on his face there is a high chance he would be temporarily blinded and given how he likes to tank damage this is a likely outcome and gives Kaine opportunity to do some real damage with those stingers of his. Which I think would lead to BT's downfall.

I doubt that could properly work on BT. The guy just have insane durability, pain resistance and healing factor. That could inflict damage and pain on him momentarily, but not as a definitive incapacitating strike. It´s just not the way Carlos acts. He´ll most likely grab Kaine and smash him into the ground just like he did to Spider-Man. If Kaine ever try to hit BT in the face he is more likely losing his hand due to the eye beams, Carlos isn´t stupid, in fact he is very intelligent, he´s smart enough to avoid that kind of attempt from his adversary.

9. While Kraven is a formidable opponent he is not in the same league as Zealot and unlike Brock Flash does a susceptibility to stabbing attacks shown in your very scans. Flash's blunt trauma resistance is good I won't take that away but stabbing/penetrative is another matter. As I've aldready shown Zealot is capable of going toe on toe with Midnighter (see last post) her combat reflexes and skill with a blade are much better than Kraven's in those scans it even says that Midnighter is avoiding hitting her blades as they will slice straight through. She was also able to throw Mr. Majestic back denoting Superhuman strength. First things first Zealot stands 0% chance in a fight against Majestic he would rip her head off before she could even blink if he wanted.Zealot is skilled enough (proven by her fight with Midnighter), strong enough and fast enough to give Venom a hell of a lot of trouble. Also as this is Morals On. Flash will not be Vulking out easily. So I see Zealot being able to cut him up very badly.

I know that, I was just point that in his second mission he was already facing someone like Kraven in his own environment, few were capable of doing that, Kraven is a beast at normal conditions, now imagine in his own place. After that Flash already fought 3 different symbiotes and did fairly well against them, faced a team-buster, and a high skilled character such as Captain America. That Zealot feat is just like Karate Kid fighting superman-like characters.. And I know she is skilled at the point to fight Midnighter and all, but without her special blades I don´t think she have a way to deliver the necessary damage force to put Venom Flash down for good. And he is very skilled in his own way as well, with several offensive options to show in the fight..

vs Anti-Venom

vs Toxin

#19 Edited by Strider92 (15275 posts) - - Show Bio

@HigorM: I probably won't be able to give you a good full reply until Friday. Looks like you brought up some interesting points though :)

#20 Posted by HigorM (3239 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92: okay no problem, that gives me time to work on my debate against Esquirre.. and yeah i´m trying my best to keep this interesting and eventful :)

#21 Edited by Strider92 (15275 posts) - - Show Bio

Well this seems to be going well :)

@HigorM said:

Okay, I just want to make things clear and define that your team doesn´t have stealth advantage, there´s no way someone have that kind of advantage against a team that is knowledge in that area too, and even if Kaine locate my team first, I can´t see that as a significant advantage, not when your enemy is as skilled and IMHO more skilled then you are, I´m talking about Black Tarantula here, if he manage to engage in a fight against the Scarlet Spider, how different is it going to be from the Spider-Man fights, where Carlos was clearly holding back, Peter tryied everything against him and the guy doesn´t even show a single scratch. How much more agile is Kaine if compared to Peter? I know his stats surpass him, but that much to make a huge difference, and even then wouldn´t Black Tarantula be prepared to deal with him? And like you said, Kaine´s invisibility is not lasting forever so I honestly don´t see that as a determinant factor here.

It is different because Kaine doesn't just rely on blunt force trauma. I agree with you that Carlos would probably shrug of Kaines punches but his stingers? Carlos can be hurt via penetrative damage White Tiger was able to stab him through the chest:

Before we go any further i'm not saying BT would get one-shotted or anything like that and in a fair fight Carlos would absolutely muderstomp White Tiger. This is just to illustrate that he can be hurt by being stabbed and Kaine's stingers are more than capable of inflicting this damage. Scarlet Spider isn't faster or more agile than Peter he is however still faster than Carlos as during Pete's fight with BT despite the fact he did almost no damage to him he was still able to bounce around him. However Kaine is supposedly stronger than Peter being on par with his stats when he had "the Other". Take those three factors and couple them with the fact that Kaine due to his morals is perfectly willing to inflict major damage I see this fight being VERY different from Spider-man Vs Black Tarantula.

@HigorM said:

I would have to do a research because off my mind right now I can´t remember a instance where Venom Flash perform a similar feat like that one, but there was an instance where the Venom symbiote protected Eddie Brock when Gargan tried to kill him, and at first Flash wasn´t fully bonded with the Venom symbiote, that´s why he needed both sedatives and strong will, but when Flash gets angry he loses control of the symbiote and conversely it begins to control him, and that´s dangerous for your team because when he looses control he becomes far larger and much stronger, much more savage and kills almost anything in sight, he´s just a beast in that state. And I dont doubt that this will happen sooner or later in this fight.

It's standard morals for Flash to prevent the symbiote from seizing control. In both the instances you showed me those were both special circumstances. In the first he failed to save those people so was angry and disappointed in himself for failing and in the second Toxin was present which forced the symbiote into its instinct to kill it. Flash has none of these motivations here. So him Vulking-out sooner rather than later seems unlikely.

@HigorM said:

I would agree with you if he had done it only one time, but he trashed Wolverine 3 times in a row, one of them before being exploded by a rocket and with Elektra to help Logan and most important, he had time to study Tomi, to prepare himself for him, he start the fight giving everything he got at disposal at the time but that´s just wasn´t enough and the outcome was the same in all three fights. Gorgon only watch one fight of him, there´s no way he can learn in a few seconds all Wolverine moves and predict everything he may use against him, not if we´re talking about a guy who mastered most of the known martial arts in the world with centuries of experience. Gorgon may not know how Backlash fights by so doesn´t Slayton, I doubt that he ever faced an enemy like that, fast, agile and skille as he is. Gorgon has many ways to prevent being reached by those coils by dodging or cutting them with the sword, he can do it while close the gap and land some nasty cuts in his body, I doubt he would recover from that. Another possibility here for Gorgon is his stone stare, he manage to use it more then one instance, against some random characters and against Wolverine where they use a plot device to find a way to defeat the character, so I doubt Backlash would be expecting that or if he even have any ways to counter it or prevent to be affected by this power.

Unless i'm mistaken he did only sneak up on Logan once. The other fights were always face on confrontations. Yes Gorgon has hundreds of years experience but Backlash has 3 thousand years experience and was able to beat Zealot who is 10 thousand years old. Gorgon's experience isn't his biggest asset here. Gorgon's stare isn't really an ability he uses very much its more of a back up plan than a real form of confrontation. Slayton has things like this he can do too like turning himself into mist and the reassembling himself inside someone else's body and tearing himself out from the inside:

These are both forms of combat that both Gorgon and Backlash shy away from preferring to beat their enemies with skill. However if push came to shove I would see dematerializing and then reforming inside some else more dangerous than Gorgon's stare especially as Gorgon has to make eye contact in order to do that. Its hard to make eye contact with smoke.

@HigorM said:

In the scan what is clear for me is that he felt that his base was under attack, it may have come to this conclusion through other ways, he doens´t said that Wolverine and Elektra was about to jump on him, i´m sorry but that´s is not written or implied in the scan, it´s obvious that if someone attack the place where your are you would automatically go on high alert, still he was hit by the explosion, and then cut and stabbed multiple times in different ways by both Logan and Elektra after starting to counter their attacks. Gorgon have other ways to sense and perceive his enemies, you know that he is blind right?

What he says is "our European Bases are under attack" not his base. He knew that other bases were being attacked as he began to say "somebody is launching an attack" implying he knew prior to the rocket exploding that they were in danger. It wasn't much of a warning but Gorgon was not taken completely unaware here. Is he completely blind? Or he just opts to be blind to prevent his stare?

@HigorM said:

Spider-Man tagging Quicksilver was ridiculous, first of all, even Angel was able to tag him, that´s not a real feat, he keep running in circles like a moron and all Peter did was put his arm in the way, seriously? Reaction and physical speed are different indeed but Gorgon have both, and I didn´t say that your team would not be able to find Gorgon, I just say that he couldn´t be find by that way. About the godkiller, what I meant is that being one-shotted is a possibility, since that´s an unusual blade in the hands of a high skilled wielder. The misting thing is pretty good against random characters but we´re talking about Gorgon here, he´s not a novice, he got the sword and ways to counter it with martal arts, just like he did against Phobos (another high skilled character who manage to be a God, bullet-timer and yet was defeated by him). Tomi got some great reaction feats as well, like shown below..

If I recall correctly the only thing special about Godkiller is that it can negate healing factors which again is a mute point as my team don't really on them. So I don't think it would matter whether Gorgon had Godkiller or any other katana in his hand. I'm not disputing Gorgons reaction time it is indeed deadly and yes Gorgon isn't a novice but neither is a 3 thousand year old alien/human hybrid who is considered the best hand to hand fighter in his universe. The worst possbile thing Gorgon could do is make this a close quarter fight as it puts him in range of Slayton's incredible hand to hand and his whips that move at the same speed he thinks. Getting in too close means risking getting trapped in those whips.

@HigorM said:

Smokes won´t make any difference for Gorgon, that guy is blind.. With or without smoke that doesn´t matter.. It won´t prevent or help your team getting away from the fight, Venom also have ways to notice upcoming enemies like said before. I honestly believe that none of your team members will ever have any time to take a break, they will be in a hard fight all the time, and what I see as a real advantage in a long duration fight is that my team is clearly superior in two areas: healing factor and damage soak. All my 3 members can take a lot of hits and keep going, as well as recover from near fatal injuries in a matter of seconds, so during the battle I believe my team have the advantage to mantain the performance and remain standing in the end.

Yes he is blind and under normal circumstances this would be the case but finding someone who can turn into smoke in a smoke screen will still be nigh impossible especially without his sight. I don't recall Venom having an special form of vision care to specify what you mean? If this fight was all about endurance yes your team would win bu it isn't and even if killing your members or KOing isn't an option (which I believe it is) incapactation is still a solid way to win. Gorgon has the best healing factor out of your team the others like Flash and BT have both been injured by penetrative means and can be again.

@HigorM said:

I doubt that could properly work on BT. The guy just have insane durability, pain resistance and healing factor. That could inflict damage and pain on him momentarily, but not as a definitive incapacitating strike. It´s just not the way Carlos acts. He´ll most likely grab Kaine and smash him into the ground just like he did to Spider-Man. If Kaine ever try to hit BT in the face he is more likely losing his hand due to the eye beams, Carlos isn´t stupid, in fact he is very intelligent, he´s smart enough to avoid that kind of attempt from his adversary.

I don't see why it shouldn't work. It worked on Carnage (twice) and there's no doubt who the more durable of the two is out of Carnage and Black Tarantula. I agree Carlos is a brawler and would most likely use his strength to try and beat Kaine down however Kaine has a much higher threshold for pain than Peter (not to mention he's probably also stronger). We saw Kaine get mindraped, electrified and burnt in the same issue and he only blacked out for a few seconds before regaining his senses. To blunt trauma damage like Carlos tends to use he's even more resistant. While smashing him into the ground may be a viable option on Peter, Kaine lived the past 7 years of his life in complete agony so broken bones and gunshots don't mean much to him. Taking out Kaine will be harder than Pete:

I've never seen Black Tarantula attempt to dodge an attack. Even in his fight with Spider-man he let Spidey hit him with stingers and webbing Spider-man even says "he never even bothered to duck":

Carlos had no way of knowing for sure that none of those things would not effect him so Kaine getting a free hit with his stinger or his burning touch doesn't seem an implausibility.

@HigorM said:

I know that, I was just point that in his second mission he was already facing someone like Kraven in his own environment, few were capable of doing that, Kraven is a beast at normal conditions, now imagine in his own place. After that Flash already fought 3 different symbiotes and did fairly well against them, faced a team-buster, and a high skilled character such as Captain America. That Zealot feat is just like Karate Kid fighting superman-like characters.. And I know she is skilled at the point to fight Midnighter and all, but without her special blades I don´t think she have a way to deliver the necessary damage force to put Venom Flash down for good. And he is very skilled in his own way as well, with several offensive options to show in the fight..

Captain America is a farcry from Zealot's level of ability. As I said the feat was just to show she has superhuman strength which is supposed to be in the 10ton region. Why would her blades not deal enough damage when spears and other bladed weapons have done damage to Flash-Venom? Granted it won't be easy but she has the speed and combat reflexes required to deal the damage required to win. Not to mention her strength is also enough to compete with Venom as Spider-man who is also around the 10-11ton mark was able to hold his own against an out of control Venom with no way of penetrative damaging him. Someone with almost equal strength, fighting an in-control Venom, using swords and with no morals when it comes to killing the enemy should do far better.

#22 Posted by HigorM (3239 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92: finally! =P

I´ll reply to this in a minute okay?

#23 Posted by Strider92 (15275 posts) - - Show Bio

@HigorM: Hey i'm only 1 day late :( and yeah reply whenever you want.

#24 Posted by HigorM (3239 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92 said:

@HigorM: Hey i'm only 1 day late :( and yeah reply whenever you want.

I know, i´ll just messing with ya!

great debate so far!

#25 Edited by HigorM (3239 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92 said:

1. "It is different because Kaine doesn't just rely on blunt force trauma. I agree with you that Carlos would probably shrug of Kaines punches but his stingers? Carlos can be hurt via penetrative damage White Tiger was able to stab him through the chest"

Yes, I agree Kaine is more versatile then Peter, but what I wanted to determine was how much more agile or faster then Spider-Man he is, because BT will tag, grab or hold him somehow and punish him harder then he did to Spidey because he knows that he is facing a different enemy in a distinct situation, he is not going to play like he did before, this is a serious battle, Kaine will hit and hurt him with the stingers, but that´s not going to be enough. Carlos can be hurt yes, but is unfair to call that instance to the table since they aren´t fighting, and White Tiger took advantage of a moment of distraction, where he had his back to her and talking, and even so he got recovered from this injury.

2. "Before we go any further i'm not saying BT would get one-shotted or anything like that and in a fair fight Carlos would absolutely muderstomp White Tiger. This is just to illustrate that he can be hurt by being stabbed and Kaine's stingers are more than capable of inflicting this damage. Scarlet Spider isn't faster or more agile than Peter he is however still faster than Carlos as during Pete's fight with BT despite the fact he did almost no damage to him he was still able to bounce around him. However Kaine is supposedly stronger than Peter being on par with his stats when he had "the Other". Take those three factors and couple them with the fact that Kaine due to his morals is perfectly willing to inflict major damage I see this fight being VERY different from Spider-man Vs Black Tarantula."

I believe that Carlos could have caught well before that moment, he was sort of playing with him, moving forward, taking hits on purpose, multiple hits I must say, from someone like Parker with more then 10 tons of strength, and BT didn´t even moved. Spider-man only did those things because he let him do it, otherwise he could have ended the fight way sooner. So Kaine isn´t faster then Peter, where Carlos was able to grab him without much effort in the moment he wanted to, he is stronger then Spidey but still weaker then BT, and have stingers that are capable of hurt a guy that is used to be stabbed multiple times without being incapacitated, someone who can take the damage and keep fighting, I can see a win for Kaine here, once Black Tarantula manage to grab him, the fight is over, that´s not much to do in this situation, and you´re forgetting about his eye beams which has been shown to be able to cause a good damage. Peter himself has stated that he is slower than the Black Tarantula.

3. "It's standard morals for Flash to prevent the symbiote from seizing control. In both the instances you showed me those were both special circumstances. In the first he failed to save those people so was angry and disappointed in himself for failing and in the second Toxin was present which forced the symbiote into its instinct to kill it. Flash has none of these motivations here. So him Vulking-out sooner rather than later seems unlikely."

You must realize that unlike Peter Parker, Flash is able to manipulate the symbiote with a combination of oral sedatives and strong will. However when Flash gets angry he loses control of the symbiote and conversely it begins to control him. This will also happen if he is in the suit for more than 48 hours. When flash looses control he becomes far larger and much stronger, much more savage and kills almost anything in sight. He can keep control to some extent, after that the symbiote dominates him, he is not going to go berserk in the beginning of the fight, but after a few blows and bloodshed I doubt that the symbiote will not emerge to kick some asses, so the chances increase if the fight is prolonged.

4. "Unless i'm mistaken he did only sneak up on Logan once. The other fights were always face on confrontations. Yes Gorgon has hundreds of years experience but Backlash has 3 thousand years experience and was able to beat Zealot who is 10 thousand years old. Gorgon's experience isn't his biggest asset here. Gorgon's stare isn't really an ability he uses very much its more of a back up plan than a real form of confrontation. Slayton has things like this he can do too like turning himself into mist and the reassembling himself inside someone else's body and tearing himself out from the inside"

I didn´t said that he sneak up on Logan more then once, I said he trashed him three times. I never said he has any advantage due to experience, I was saying that Gorgon isn´t a rookie neither a jobber, he always go for the kill no matter what, using anything at his disposal. Gorgon used the stone stare 3 times already in 3 different moments, against not only canon fodder but also skilled characters like Phobos, it didn´t work out on him but that proves he can use it in the fight if he want to. Backlash can´t predict, dodge or do anything about it since he doesn´t expect him to use that kind of attack. Slayton mist is great and all but not against someone like Gorgon who can finght blindfolded and can perceive the enemies arround him through other methods (using his other senses to detect enemies).

- stone stare:

- fighting multiple enemies blindfolded:

"These are both forms of combat that both Gorgon and Backlash shy away from preferring to beat their enemies with skill. However if push came to shove I would see dematerializing and then reforming inside some else more dangerous than Gorgon's stare especially as Gorgon has to make eye contact in order to do that. Its hard to make eye contact with smoke."

Gorgon doesn´t way to do it and he did it three times already. Slayton will be looking at him during the fight, and that´s why this attack is hard to avoid, specially when you doesn´t expect the enemy possess such weapon. The smoke can be avoided since it doesn´t have the same effective speed of the stare. I believe that Gorgon being fast as he is can prevent that kind of attack. Note that the stare will be used while he is not transformed into smoke, because that´s the way Gorgon acts. when he use it, that´s his first move before stepping into the fight, so I doubt Backlash will have time to do anything.

5. What he says is "our European Bases are under attack" not his base. He knew that other bases were being attacked as he began to say "somebody is launching an attack" implying he knew prior to the rocket exploding that they were in danger. It wasn't much of a warning but Gorgon was not taken completely unaware here. Is he completely blind? Or he just opts to be blind to prevent his stare?

Well I see that´s is logic to say that when you fell some place being attacked you will automatically stay alert, doesn´t matter which base, what matters is that someone has made a move which consisted of an attack somewhere, so I better stay alert because I can be the next one considering the circumstances at that time. He just know how to fight blindfolded (trained) so he can use his other senses to "see" the enemy.

6. "If I recall correctly the only thing special about Godkiller is that it can negate healing factors which again is a mute point as my team don't really on them. So I don't think it would matter whether Gorgon had Godkiller or any other katana in his hand. I'm not disputing Gorgons reaction time it is indeed deadly and yes Gorgon isn't a novice but neither is a 3 thousand year old alien/human hybrid who is considered the best hand to hand fighter in his universe. The worst possbile thing Gorgon could do is make this a close quarter fight as it puts him in range of Slayton's incredible hand to hand and his whips that move at the same speed he thinks. Getting in too close means risking getting trapped in those whips."

Yes you´re correct, but you must agree that this way the impact is greater then if was just a regular katana. But like you said, your team don´t rely on healing factor, and that´s a huge advantage for my team, Gorgon can dodge the whips just like he does to avoid gunfire and close the distance so he can tag Backlash, he can even cut those whips with the godkiller or even did the same thing he did against Phobos, use the ninjitsu to hit him right after their swords broke, another advantage he got over his enemie, and while Tomi can take a lot of damage and keep standing, Slayton doesn´t have a healing factor to help him when he needs the most. So that´s the key factor here that is gonna make the difference for the result of this particular fight.

7. "Yes he is blind and under normal circumstances this would be the case but finding someone who can turn into smoke in a smoke screen will still be nigh impossible especially without his sight. I don't recall Venom having an special form of vision care to specify what you mean? If this fight was all about endurance yes your team would win bu it isn't and even if killing your members or KOing isn't an option (which I believe it is) incapactation is still a solid way to win. Gorgon has the best healing factor out of your team the others like Flash and BT have both been injured by penetrative means and can be again."

Venom doesn´t have a special form of vision, is the symbiote itself who possess the "feeling" to percieve upcomming enemies since it is always protects the host no matter what, and with Flash isn´t different. Doing this mist thing inside him would be suicide since he would be trapped inside the symbiote which in turn would kill him instantly. Yes both Flash and BT have been injured by penetrative means but never killed or incapacitated, like shown before neither lost a fight due to this method, Carlos has been fighting like this for centuries and Venom Flash has demonstraded increasingly performances against all types of characters, it´s not like that is his weakness, I highly doubt that the Venom symbiote can be incapacitated by those means, not while fighting back. Not to mention that in this location he possess plenty different ways to attack using anything he could find in the city at his disposal.

- Venom attacks, that also shows the symbiote reaction to eminent danger:

- this shows how much damage he can take and how effective he can be by using the symbiote to create weapons to fight multiple enemies at the same time:

- Not this proves how would be a fight between Venom and Kaine:

* He would end up being defeated, good for Kaine that Flash have great will power..

8. "I don't see why it shouldn't work. It worked on Carnage (twice) and there's no doubt who the more durable of the two is out of Carnage and Black Tarantula. I agree Carlos is a brawler and would most likely use his strength to try and beat Kaine down however Kaine has a much higher threshold for pain than Peter (not to mention he's probably also stronger). We saw Kaine get mindraped, electrified and burnt in the same issue and he only blacked out for a few seconds before regaining his senses. To blunt trauma damage like Carlos tends to use he's even more resistant. While smashing him into the ground may be a viable option on Peter, Kaine lived the past 7 years of his life in complete agony so broken bones and gunshots don't mean much to him. Taking out Kaine will be harder than Pete. I've never seen Black Tarantula attempt to dodge an attack. Even in his fight with Spider-man he let Spidey hit him with stingers and webbing Spider-man even says "he never even bothered to duck": Carlos had no way of knowing for sure that none of those things would not effect him so Kaine getting a free hit with his stinger or his burning touch doesn't seem an implausibility."

Like I said before, the guy isn´t dumb, he is a crime lord ninja trained by the hand, possess a brilliant criminal mind, and is a strategist, planner and tactician of the highest order. He is going to let Kaine hit and sting him without retaliating, when he realize the severity of the attack he will strike back mercilessly. I´ve already demonstrated that he was shot by several goons in the back and just go for the kill punking all of them, he can take it and then still fighting tanks to his insane healing factor, something Kaine doesnt have. He is going to rip Kaine out just like he easily did to that steel-titanium armor. Not to mention that he can heal himself or others like he did two times before (once when he trashed Delillah who possess superhuman strengh and durability)

9. "Captain America is a farcry from Zealot's level of ability. As I said the feat was just to show she has superhuman strength which is supposed to be in the 10ton region. Why would her blades not deal enough damage when spears and other bladed weapons have done damage to Flash-Venom? Granted it won't be easy but she has the speed and combat reflexes required to deal the damage required to win. Not to mention her strength is also enough to compete with Venom as Spider-man who is also around the 10-11ton mark was able to hold his own against an out of control Venom with no way of penetrative damaging him. Someone with almost equal strength, fighting an in-control Venom, using swords and with no morals when it comes to killing the enemy should do far better."

I don´t think she is as strong as him, she is skilled and posess great combat reflexes but I honestly believe that regular blades can´t do the necessary damage to take him down. Not a symbiote, a skilled and trained one, who is superhuman strong, fast enough (superhuman speed, agility and reflexes) to fight Spider-Man like characters, camouflage and possess many ways of offensive strikes. He´s never defeated before by such means, and i´ve shown fights were he takes more damage then the ones in the fight against Kraven, and it still didn´t stoped him, so that´s why I can´t see how regular blades will do more than that, even in the hands of such skilled character like Zealot. She will eventually be overcomed by the Agent Venom sooner or later, probably later..

#26 Posted by Strider92 (15275 posts) - - Show Bio

@HigorM said:

I believe that Carlos could have caught well before that moment, he was sort of playing with him, moving forward, taking hits on purpose, multiple hits I must say, from someone like Parker with more then 10 tons of strength, and BT didn´t even moved. Spider-man only did those things because he let him do it, otherwise he could have ended the fight way sooner. So Kaine isn´t faster then Peter, where Carlos was able to grab him without much effort in the moment he wanted to, he is stronger then Spidey but still weaker then BT, and have stingers that are capable of hurt a guy that is used to be stabbed multiple times without being incapacitated, someone who can take the damage and keep fighting, I can see a win for Kaine here, once Black Tarantula manage to grab him, the fight is over, that´s not much to do in this situation, and you´re forgetting about his eye beams which has been shown to be able to cause a good damage. Peter himself has stated that he is slower than the Black Tarantula.

This seems to contradict what i've seen of Carlos in battle. He is definitely stronger than Pete I won't dispute that but given how Pete was bouncing around him I doubt he is as agile or has as good reflexes as Spider-man. Just because they say it in a comic doesn't always make it true. I believe Reed stated that Peter could be his equal and Strange said that the Ghost Rider's powers are godlike and yet we don't have anything to prove this. When has Carlos been stabbed multiple times? I know he was shot and got over that but I don't remember him taking multiple stab wounds. Yes he has eye-beams but in his fight with Peter he didn't tag Spider-man once with them (that I recall). Kaine is on par with Pete in speed if Carlos couldn't tag Pete it seems that Kaine shouldn't have much more trouble dodging. I also disagree with the fact that once Kaine has been grabbed its over. Kaine is far more pain tolerant and resistant to blunt trauma than Pete. In fact in my eyes grabbing Kaine seems a lot more dangerous than grabbing Spider-man as it puts Carlos in range of those stingers.

@HigorM said:

You must realize that unlike Peter Parker, Flash is able to manipulate the symbiote with a combination of oral sedatives and strong will. However when Flash gets angry he loses control of the symbiote and conversely it begins to control him. This will also happen if he is in the suit for more than 48 hours. When flash looses control he becomes far larger and much stronger, much more savage and kills almost anything in sight. He can keep control to some extent, after that the symbiote dominates him, he is not going to go berserk in the beginning of the fight, but after a few blows and bloodshed I doubt that the symbiote will not emerge to kick some asses, so the chances increase if the fight is prolonged.

Yeah I know about the sedatives. However for Flash to Vulk-out it requires a catalyst. I'm not saying there isn't any chance he won't Vulk-out but in this case there is less of chance as it is in his own interests including his morals to not Vulk-out. Unless a civilian is killed, his family is threatened or some other random occurrence (like the Toxin one) the chances of him Vulking-out are lowered as Flash will want to remain in control.

@HigorM said:

I didn´t said that he sneak up on Logan more then once, I said he trashed him three times. I never said he has any advantage due to experience, I was saying that Gorgon isn´t a rookie neither a jobber, he always go for the kill no matter what, using anything at his disposal. Gorgon used the stone stare 3 times already in 3 different moments, against not only canon fodder but also skilled characters like Phobos, it didn´t work out on him but that proves he can use it in the fight if he want to. Backlash can´t predict, dodge or do anything about it since he doesn´t expect him to use that kind of attack. Slayton mist is great and all but not against someone like Gorgon who can finght blindfolded and can perceive the enemies arround him through other methods (using his other senses to detect enemies).

I thought the point you were trying to make was about Gorgon's stealth? My bad. I also agreed in my last post that Gorgon isn't a rookie. Yes Gorgon does use the stare but I repeat it is not his preferred form of combat another thing to remember is that in order to use the stare Gorgon must make direct eye-contact. He can't just look at someone and turn them to stone, that's not how it works. The enemy must look him directly in the eye. Another interesting thing to bring up is that Gorgon uses sunglasses or sometimes just cloth to prevent his stare correct?

Look at his awesome shades!

If that is the case and that just something like glass or cloth between his stare and the enemy can prevent his stare working then is there any proof that his stare can actually work on someone else who is wearing lenses and thus not making direct contact with his eyes? Some like say Backlash or Scarlet Spider. Both of whom have lenses over their eyes:

If normal fabric and sunglasses can prevent his stare effecting people is there any evidence that his stare would actually work on someone looking at him through lenses? Has Gorgon ever stone-stared someone wearing glasses or a a mask with lenses? Not to my knowledge.

I also agree Gorgon's senses are good however i'll repeat myself "detecting someone who can turn into mist in a smoke screen should be nigh-impossible". Gorgon finds people by using his other senses how is he going to hear, smell or taste mist when he is surrounded by smoke?

@HigorM said:

Venom doesn´t have a special form of vision, is the symbiote itself who possess the "feeling" to percieve upcomming enemies since it is always protects the host no matter what, and with Flash isn´t different. Doing this mist thing inside him would be suicide since he would be trapped inside the symbiote which in turn would kill him instantly. Yes both Flash and BT have been injured by penetrative means but never killed or incapacitated, like shown before neither lost a fight due to this method, Carlos has been fighting like this for centuries and Venom Flash has demonstraded increasingly performances against all types of characters, it´s not like that is his weakness, I highly doubt that the Venom symbiote can be incapacitated by those means, not while fighting back. Not to mention that in this location he possess plenty different ways to attack using anything he could find in the city at his disposal.

Black Tarantula can and has been incapacitated by penetrative damage as I showed in my last post and while I agree that it would take time unlike Brock, Flash is not invulnerable to stabbing attacks. We even see him bleeding when he has been stabbed or cut. Something that I don't think ever happened to Brock meaning that the attacks most likely bypass the symbiote and are healed up afterwards:

This means that stabbing attacks will work especially fatally aim ones to the head and chest. If he bleeds it mean the weapon is actually directly attacking his body before getting healed which is all well and good for scratches and scrapes but not on attacks that could kill him (headshots, chest wounds such as the heart, or decapitation). Saying he can't be killed on incapacitated by penetrative damage seems to contradict what we've seen. He feels pain and he bleeds I don't see why a few good placed swords strikes couldn't put him down.

In both those instances of him fighting Carnage and Kaine he was Vulked out due to the circumstances. Fighting Carnage made him Vulk-out due to his connection to Carnage and fighting Kaine made him Vulk-out due to the connection to Spider-man. Zealot has no prior connection to Venom so Vulking-out is unlikely.

@HigorM said:

Like I said before, the guy isn´t dumb, he is a crime lord ninja trained by the hand, possess a brilliant criminal mind, and is a strategist, planner and tactician of the highest order. He is going to let Kaine hit and sting him without retaliating, when he realize the severity of the attack he will strike back mercilessly. I´ve already demonstrated that he was shot by several goons in the back and just go for the kill punking all of them, he can take it and then still fighting tanks to his insane healing factor, something Kaine doesnt have. He is going to rip Kaine out just like he easily did to that steel-titanium armor. Not to mention that he can heal himself or others like he did two times before (once when he trashed Delillah who possess superhuman strengh and durability)

I never said he was dumb what I said was that he has a habit of letting the enemy hit him and tanking damage which is not in his best interest. If he lets Kaine hit him even if he plans to retaliate will not be a good idea due to Kaine's stingers and burning touch. Yes Tarantula can heal himself but only if the wound is treatable a stab through the chest or head would be just as effective as it would on anyone else. That post of the guy getting ripped out of the armor just illustrates my point. He purposefully allowed himself to take damage so he could get in a position to strike which was fine as the android didn't have any means of penetrative damage it was all blunt trauma. Had he done that with something that could cut him BT would have come out much worse:

@HigorM said:

I don´t think she is as strong as him, she is skilled and posess great combat reflexes but I honestly believe that regular blades can´t do the necessary damage to take him down. Not a symbiote, a skilled and trained one, who is superhuman strong, fast enough (superhuman speed, agility and reflexes) to fight Spider-Man like characters, camouflage and possess many ways of offensive strikes. He´s never defeated before by such means, and i´ve shown fights were he takes more damage then the ones in the fight against Kraven, and it still didn´t stoped him, so that´s why I can´t see how regular blades will do more than that, even in the hands of such skilled character like Zealot. She will eventually be overcomed by the Agent Venom sooner or later, probably later..

Zealot isn't far off Spider-man's strength level. She is a 10tonner. Base Spider-man is a 10-13tonner depending on who's writing. Why can't regular blades damage him when I showed (^up there^) that they already have?

After you've replied to me how about handing it over to the votes? I think we might be going in circles from here on out if we continue :)

#27 Posted by HigorM (3239 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92: nice! ok I´ll reply to it and then we go for the votes!

#28 Posted by HigorM (3239 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92:

This seems to contradict what i've seen of Carlos in battle. He is definitely stronger than Pete I won't dispute that but given how Pete was bouncing around him I doubt he is as agile or has as good reflexes as Spider-man. Just because they say it in a comic doesn't always make it true. I believe Reed stated that Peter could be his equal and Strange said that the Ghost Rider's powers are godlike and yet we don't have anything to prove this. When has Carlos been stabbed multiple times? I know he was shot and got over that but I don't remember him taking multiple stab wounds. Yes he has eye-beams but in his fight with Peter he didn't tag Spider-man once with them (that I recall). Kaine is on par with Pete in speed if Carlos couldn't tag Pete it seems that Kaine shouldn't have much more trouble dodging. I also disagree with the fact that once Kaine has been grabbed its over. Kaine is far more pain tolerant and resistant to blunt trauma than Pete. In fact in my eyes grabbing Kaine seems a lot more dangerous than grabbing Spider-man as it puts Carlos in range of those stingers.

He did it in that specific fight, since the very beggining he knew that he was superior to Peter and too much for him to handle, he could´ve grap his leg whenever he wanted, but he didn´t do it to prove the inferiority of his enemy. If he doesn´t had reflexes on par with Spider-Man he wouldn´t be able to easily punk him twiece. It could be moot if he had done nothing that indicates that, but he did, more then one time, so it´s safe to say that he can handle spider-man like characters with no difficulty. Exactly, he didn´t have been stabbed multiple times, the only instance was that one already posted when he was caught off guard, even then he get fully recovered, so I guess it´s pure assumption to say he can be defeated by those means considering that Kaine didn´t have a sword to make significant damage. About the eye-beams, he only used once in the fight, and I bring them to table to show the destructive power of his attack, not that he could easily tag Kaine with it, it´s another weapon that he can use that makes the fight more interesting with more variables and chances of victory for his team. Like I said, BT can just one-shot him like others already did and put in down for good, he is way below Carlos in skill wise considering that Kaine got kicked to the ground by some local leader from the Hand, so close range the Black Tarantula is far more deadly then him.

- Scarlet Spider is on the ground in his own issue:

- also here against a strong character:

Yeah I know about the sedatives. However for Flash to Vulk-out it requires a catalyst. I'm not saying there isn't any chance he won't Vulk-out but in this case there is less of chance as it is in his own interests including his morals to not Vulk-out. Unless a civilian is killed, his family is threatened or some other random occurrence (like the Toxin one) the chances of him Vulking-out are lowered as Flash will want to remain in control.

I don´t know, the symbiote sometimes reacts independently of the host´s will, I believe that if Flash finds himself in real danger, the Venom won´t hesitate to protect him, so in character the Agent Venom is quite an adversary, now imagine the other possibility, it would be real hard to stop him, specially without help. This is a different fight, different enemies, a fight that won´t end quickly, I think he got a pretty chance to Vulk-out here.

I thought the point you were trying to make was about Gorgon's stealth? My bad. I also agreed in my last post that Gorgon isn't a rookie. Yes Gorgon does use the stare but I repeat it is not his preferred form of combat another thing to remember is that in order to use the stare Gorgon must make direct eye-contact. He can't just look at someone and turn them to stone, that's not how it works. The enemy must look him directly in the eye. Another interesting thing to bring up is that Gorgon uses sunglasses or sometimes just cloth to prevent his stare correct? If that is the case and that just something like glass or cloth between his stare and the enemy can prevent his stare working then is there any proof that his stare can actually work on someone else who is wearing lenses and thus not making direct contact with his eyes? Some like say Backlash or Scarlet Spider. Both of whom have lenses over their eyes. If normal fabric and sunglasses can prevent his stare effecting people is there any evidence that his stare would actually work on someone looking at him through lenses? Has Gorgon ever stone-stared someone wearing glasses or a a mask with lenses? Not to my knowledge. I also agree Gorgon's senses are good however i'll repeat myself "detecting someone who can turn into mist in a smoke screen should be nigh-impossible". Gorgon finds people by using his other senses how is he going to hear, smell or taste mist when he is surrounded by smoke?

I was just saying that the stone gaze is another option he got to use in the fight, but yes, he needs to make direct eye-contact so that works, but in his fight against Elektra and the SHIELD agents he uses the stone stare just like the same way he did to Phobos, what i'm saying is that if Elektra didn´t have the perception to feel what he was going to do she would have been turned to stone too, after that he did manage to easily trash her, so even if the stone doesn´t works, Gorgon is still able to take Backlash out with his pure skill, something that he is superior, not to mention the healing factor which is something that is a clear advantage for Tomi. I repeat, that could´ve work on randons but against someone like Gorgon is a whole different thing.

Black Tarantula can and has been incapacitated by penetrative damage as I showed in my last post and while I agree that it would take time unlike Brock, Flash is not invulnerable to stabbing attacks. We even see him bleeding when he has been stabbed or cut. Something that I don't think ever happened to Brock meaning that the attacks most likely bypass the symbiote and are healed up afterwards. This means that stabbing attacks will work especially fatally aim ones to the head and chest. If he bleeds it mean the weapon is actually directly attacking his body before getting healed which is all well and good for scratches and scrapes but not on attacks that could kill him (headshots, chest wounds such as the heart, or decapitation). Saying he can't be killed on incapacitated by penetrative damage seems to contradict what we've seen. He feels pain and he bleeds I don't see why a few good placed swords strikes couldn't put him down. In both those instances of him fighting Carnage and Kaine he was Vulked out due to the circumstances. Fighting Carnage made him Vulk-out due to his connection to Carnage and fighting Kaine made him Vulk-out due to the connection to Spider-man. Zealot has no prior connection to Venom so Vulking-out is unlikely.

If your refering to that instance when he got stabbed from behind while talking to White Tiger that doesn´t prove your argument, and that was a real sword, an entire blade crossed in his body, not just some stingers here and there. Flash is not invulnerable but very resistant, his fight against Kraven was only his second mission, the other fight the guy didn´t made enough damage to incapacitate him, none of those scans shows that. It´s not like fighting a standard human being, the symbiote take the damage making it less fatal to the host, not to mention that Venom can heal Flash in a matter of few minutes. One last possibility is that the symbiote can protect the host attacking the enemy by itself just like in the fight against Red Hulk, which proves what i´ve said that it reacts independently..

@HigorM said:

I never said he was dumb what I said was that he has a habit of letting the enemy hit him and tanking damage which is not in his best interest. If he lets Kaine hit him even if he plans to retaliate will not be a good idea due to Kaine's stingers and burning touch. Yes Tarantula can heal himself but only if the wound is treatable a stab through the chest or head would be just as effective as it would on anyone else. That post of the guy getting ripped out of the armor just illustrates my point. He purposefully allowed himself to take damage so he could get in a position to strike which was fine as the android didn't have any means of penetrative damage it was all blunt trauma. Had he done that with something that could cut him BT would have come out much worse

Yes he had that habit against non-skilled/weaker enemies, I´ve never seen he doing the same thing against someone as skilled as him. It only proves how good he is at the point to let the enemy hit first before react, he is the one used to defeat Spider-Man and Daredevil, characters with danger and radar sense, enemies capable of predict the danger before reaching them, like I said before, the key factor here is skill, add superior strenght, durability, damage soak, healing, and you have someone ridiculously hard to kill, knockout or incapacitate.

Zealot isn't far off Spider-man's strength level. She is a 10tonner. Base Spider-man is a 10-13tonner depending on who's writing. Why can't regular blades damage him when I showed (^up there^) that they already have?

They can damage in did, but not to the point that will be enough to defeat him via incapacitation, since we´re talking about someone who is strong enough to engage Carnage in combat and tear the head off a tank, fast enough to dodge bullets from machine guns and can also generate tendrils from the suit to hold multiple weapons. He´s not going to be standing waiting for the blades, others manage to stab, cut or whatever him before, but to me all that wasn´t enough to take him down for good, so I don´t think regular blades could do any better then that..

Ok let´s go to the votes shall we?

#29 Posted by Strider92 (15275 posts) - - Show Bio

@HigorM: Yep i'm quite happy to do that. Well done on the debate it was interesting :)

You guys mind voting :)

#30 Posted by Lvenger (16064 posts) - - Show Bio

Ah I've been waiting for the voting call! I had the pleasure of looking in on this debate and although I didn't know everything about all the combatants but both debaters enlightened me in that regard. However when it comes to who the winner is in this debate, though both argued gloriously, I have to give it to @Strider92: I felt he did a slightly better job countering HigorM's points and making his case as to why his team wins more clearly. Excellent job by both debaters though!

#31 Posted by Pokergeist (22329 posts) - - Show Bio

Going with Strider92 for showing he can win and attack in mutiple ways via Backlash and Kaine.

#32 Posted by laflux (11096 posts) - - Show Bio

Very impressive from both you guys. Give me some time to process all of the information and go from their. Hopefully I stay clear from the winner of this in round two.

#33 Posted by TheAcidSkull (15961 posts) - - Show Bio

while both did a great job, i vote for strider92.

#34 Posted by laflux (11096 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah for me. A very good debate from both guys, I think if I went up against either of these guys I would have lost.

#35 Posted by Strider92 (15275 posts) - - Show Bio

You guys were here when it started how do you feel about the result?

#36 Posted by Chaos Prime (10589 posts) - - Show Bio

Epic stuff Guys, enjoyed every word & scan :)

#37 Posted by HigorM (3239 posts) - - Show Bio

I would like to call to vote as well..

#38 Posted by laflux (11096 posts) - - Show Bio

first to five is it?

#39 Posted by Strider92 (15275 posts) - - Show Bio

@HigorM: Call everyone lol. The more the better. I'm just calling out people I know are regular voters and participants :)

#40 Posted by Chaos Prime (10589 posts) - - Show Bio

is this an open vote? i thought it was just for the guys already mentioned.

If so my vote is for Strider92 by a whisker :)

#41 Edited by Strider92 (15275 posts) - - Show Bio

@Chaos Prime: Yes this vote is completely open. I just called some people as they are some of the bigger debaters here so its good to get some feedback from them :). While i'm here i'll see if has an opinion as well.

#42 Posted by laflux (11096 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92: Seeing as its first to five, I think you have won by a landslide LOL. However, if your looking for master debators (lol I never get tired of that), see if you can get Hyper_God and CitizenBane on as well.

#43 Posted by ImTheDamnBatman (3514 posts) - - Show Bio

I love debates like this... Involved members, interesting, and a close match up. I haven't seen it in a while, so when I get time i'll read the last few pages.

#44 Posted by HigorM (3239 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92: yeah, you´ve won already, but I would like to know what those guys have to say..

Congratz, it was nice to debate with you!

#45 Posted by Strider92 (15275 posts) - - Show Bio

@HigorM said:

Congratz, it was nice to debate with you!

You too this was actually my favorite debate on comicvine so far. I love all these characters so getting a chance to see how they stack up to each other was great and your replies and ideas were great it was a pleasure debating with you. Hopefully we'll get put against each other in the future for a rematch :)

#46 Edited by HigorM (3239 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92: thanks man, I really loved this battle, it´s great when you have the chance to debate against users like you, anyway it was an honor, hope we can do it again soon..

#47 Posted by Vance Astro (90727 posts) - - Show Bio

If only we could get this level debates everyday....

Moderator
#48 Posted by laflux (11096 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

If only we could get this level debates everyday....

Hmm true

#49 Posted by SlimJ87D (8932 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think the first to five was fair. These debated tournaments need dedicated judges for each round. We need to find the judges before the debates even start and those 5 judges make a true unanimous decision.

Not saying anyone cheated here, but it could be easy as someone calling 5 of their friends or making a random account to get 5 quick votes in 2 minutes.

#50 Posted by jashro44 (16462 posts) - - Show Bio

@SlimJ87D said:

I don't think the first to five was fair. These debated tournaments need dedicated judges for each round. We need to find the judges before the debates even start and those 5 judges make a true unanimous decision.

Not saying anyone cheated here, but it could be easy as someone calling 5 of their friends or making a random account to get 5 quick votes in 2 minutes.

Or you can just ask people why they voted for who they voted for if you expect they are voting based on bias. I think for the most part people are unbiased

***I will vote on this later****