#1 Edited by jashro44 (21918 posts) - - Show Bio

Vamp

VS

Captain America (Ultimate)

Rules

  • Vamp has an assortment of knives
  • Ultimate cap has his shield
  • Win by KO/Death/Incapacitation
  • Random encounter
  • Morals are on

Location

  • Both begin visible
  • Begin 30 feet apart
  • unpopulated
  • Fight takes place here:

Who wins and why?

#2 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

Ultimate Cap decimates so hard it is not even funny. I do not see a reason to post why either.

Seriously nothing Vamp has is better than what Ultimate Steve has and Ultimate Steve already beaten Healing Factor foes that were way better than Vamps Healing Factor 3 times over.

Cap dominates. Next.

#3 Posted by jashro44 (21918 posts) - - Show Bio
#4 Posted by UltimateHero0406 (2171 posts) - - Show Bio

Cap because Vamp was beat by MGS2 Raiden twice.

#5 Edited by New_World_Order (13235 posts) - - Show Bio

Cap is just flat out superior to Vamp in almost every way.

Online
#6 Posted by nickzambuto (13699 posts) - - Show Bio

MGS4 really did a lot against Vamp's reputation. He was a monster in Sons of Liberty, but then Guns of The Patriots was just like "durr nanomachines" and pretty much ruined the character. The great thing about Vamp, was that he was scary. An immortal, bestial vampire. When MGS4 explained it away as nanomachines, it also deprived the character of all his mystique and style. The fact that Old Snake could suddenly handle him so easily also didn't do much for the character's reputation. I believe if this thread was made in 2002, the general consensus would be Vamp stomps.

As it stands, being a well-informed and known supporter of Vamp as well as most MGS characters, the Romanian should be too much for Captain America to handle. The speed and precision it takes to block a stream of automatic bullets at close range, with nothing but a combat knife, is something Cap can not handle. Just too fast, too skilled, too monstrous. There's also the fact that, as a healer, Vamp is nearly undefeatable. Anything that is not immediately fatal (AKA a bullet through his brain) will have no effect on him; he's displayed enough masochism to smile through Raiden's HF Sword vibrating most of his internal organs to mush. It's this trait that allows Vamp to fight through grievous injuries and heal back to full capacity, whereas a normal person would be distracted by their wounds and allot the opponent time to finish them off. This does not apply to Vamp, so when dealing with him you have two options: directly puncture his brain, or bleed him out faster than he can heal. Considering Ultimate Captain America has neither the marksmanship of Solid Snake, nor the speed of Raiden, neither option is achievable by him. Ignoring the fact that Vamp has the dexterity to avoid nearly each and every one of the soldier's strikes, Cap simply does not have the means to win.

Ultimate Cap decimates so hard it is not even funny. I do not see a reason to post why either.

Seriously nothing Vamp has is better than what Ultimate Steve has and Ultimate Steve already beaten Healing Factor foes that were way better than Vamps Healing Factor 3 times over.

Cap dominates. Next.

Just because Captain America has fought foes with healing factors before (note: Vamp's regen isn't weaker than others, just different) that doesn't mean he can beat Vamp. I can show you what Vamp does to elite soldiers if that's all he needs to beat Steve Rogers.

#7 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

Speed

Caps speed like his strength and durability is clearly super human levels.

1) Cap dodges computer targeting AK-47 with no Shield.

2) Cap dodges bullets from Military.

3-5) Reacts and Blocks electricity attacks. He does this again for a Silver Herald.

6) Bullets dodging from 360 degrees.

7) Cap actually reacts and moves faster than the Bullet Tranqs from Hawkeye's guns! Clint clearly fires first and Cap reacts second. Great feat.

8-9) Cap Reacts to Silver Herald Electric attack after it was fired!

Durability

Also unlike 616 Cap, Ultimate Steve best attribute is his Durability. this guy can take a beating like no other.

1-3) Cap jumps through the Jet Wash of a Ballistic Missile, plants grenades that blow in his face, gets hit by the shock wave of a Atomic Bomb, and then crashes into the icy sea. Still lived frozen till thawed.

4) 100+ toner Abomination crashes on Cap Legs and flings him through a building, no noticeable damage.

5-7) Cap tanks devastating blows from Blood Lusted Hulk. still giving interviews and on his feet.

8) Survives a ramming Iron Man Suit that craters the earth.

9-11) Blocks a hit from Blood Lusted Thor, flew at super speeds through a buildings side, and finally loses enough momentum to crash into wall. He is fine.

One of the best things about Ultimate Cap is his Minor Healing Factor.

1-2) Heals faster than Bruce Banner calculated. This was after being on Ice for 50+ years.

3) After a brutal beating from Hulk, Cap was still giving interviews.

4) Caps healing factor as per WW2 Scientist. He even cured Vampirism with his Healing Factor. Nerd Hulks Healing Factor could not.

Cap also likes to free fall from Helicopters, planes, and buildings with no fear or injury.

1) Free Falls from Plane.

2) Free Falls from Skyscraper.

Strength

Ultimate Cap differs from 616 Cap in Strength as well. Fact is Ultimate Steve is just so much stronger!

1) Strength to blow back these Clone Assassins from the shockwave.

2) Curls 1000 pound Dumb Bells like nothing.

3) Pushes Ultimate Spidey to hi limits in a shoving match.

4) Catches a easy 5 ton Pine Tree.

5) Catches Ultimate Valkerie's fist with no problem. She is strong enough to lock up weapons with Thor.

Sp Cap is not only as fast, Stronger, and more so Durable to damage overall than just Healing, but Cap also has the skill and Foes to Prove Vamp is nothing new to him.

Cap vs Kleiser. This guy has double digit ton strength and insane healing factor.

Both battles with Silver Heralds. Silver Heralds are capable of tearing Iron Man to shreds.

Cap vs Black Panther.

Cap vs Sabertooth. Sabertooth surprise attacks and Cap still manhandles Sabes.

Nukes background.

Cap first battle with Nuke.

Cap vs Viet Cong ambush.

After Cap gets taken down by a whole village of Super Soldiers made by Nuke, Cap is tortured for a week straight with no food, water, and Pints of blood drained everyday.

Then when Nuke made it clear he was through with Cap, cap finds a venomous snake and sucks the poison into his mouth.

Then he spits it in Nukes eyes and beats him down in this weak condition!

So Cap has a long history beating foes more skilled and have better stats overall. Heck some of these guys like Sabertooth, Silver Herald, and The Chitari Commander have better Healing Factors and Stats!

I mean, seriously, Cap took on the whole Avenger Roster and had to allow himself to be captured!

Cap vs Avengers! He pretty much by himself beats the Avengers, however he wanted to be captured. This way he can get intel on where his son is and kill him with the Teleport Jet.

Vamp is good, I love all 4 MGS games. He is out of his league here.

#8 Posted by nickzambuto (13699 posts) - - Show Bio

Cap because Vamp was beat by MGS2 Raiden twice.

That's not really a strike against Vamp. Raiden had enhanced perception because of his years as a child soldier, when you put an M4 in the hands of someone like that, there isn't much they can't shoot. Fun fact: Raiden didn't receive any optical or nervous enhancements until his black exoskeleton in Revengeance. Every mental factor before that - reaction time, balance, and so forth - were just extensions of his natural human ability.

#9 Posted by jwalser3 (5035 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Vamp has been able to deflect a whole magazine fired by a navy seal. He has been shown to run on water and up walls.

I don't think it'll be that easy.

#10 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3 said:

@cadencev2: Vamp has been able to deflect a whole magazine fired by a navy seal. He has been shown to run on water and up walls.

I don't think it'll be that easy.

Well Cap has Dodge a whole Clip of AK fire with no Shields and Blocked Ultimate Hawkeyes Tranq Bullets after they are fired.

This means Cap is as fast.

So who cares if Vamp deflects bullets? Ultimate Cap does not, he has a Shield and the Speed to use it.

#11 Posted by Chibi_cute (4545 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Vamp had the ability to accurately predict the movements of an enemy by observing their muscles.

This wont be an easy fight for cap.

#12 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Vamp had the ability to accurately predict the movements of an enemy by observing their muscles.

This wont be an easy fight for cap.

Wrong. Vamp can accurately predict Muscles of humans. People like Raiden for whatever reason had had muscle movement that Vamp could not read as well. So how is a Super Soldier who under gone many surgeries for his powers as well has super human muscle mass be read by Vamp? Answer would be Vamp couldn't and shouldn't be able to.

#13 Posted by jwalser3 (5035 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Vamp deflects bullets and slaughter a whole Seal Team(1:45-3:10). He jumps faster then Radiens mind can process and is able to get behind him(4:40-5:15). Again he deflects more bullets with ease and moves faster then Radien or Snake could follow(6:20-end)

Seeing how when he does this kind of stuff everything but him goes into slow motion I'd say it's safe to say that he is moving faster then the human mind can process. Radien was staring right at him and didn't know he jumped behind him.

Here he gets stabbed 3-4 times in the chest and is perfectly fine(3:35-3:45)

#14 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3 said:

@cadencev2: Vamp deflects bullets and slaughter a whole Seal Team(1:45-3:10). He jumps faster then Radiens mind can process and is able to get behind him(4:40-5:15). Again he deflects more bullets with ease and moves faster then Radien or Snake could follow(6:20-end)

Seeing how when he does this kind of stuff everything but him goes into slow motion I'd say it's safe to say that he is moving faster then the human mind can process. Radien was staring right at him and didn't know he jumped behind him.

Here he gets stabbed 3-4 times in the chest and is perfectly fine(3:35-3:45)

The major flaw in that logic comes down to the fact Raiden who is Peak Human has reacted and shot Vamp MANY TIMES where Vamp was too slow to dodge. Fact. Vamp was also shot by the Sniping action of Snake and Raiden again. Fact.

Vamp cannot move faster than Bullets, feats show he reads muscle movement with Peak Human speed to avoid gun fire.

Ultimate Cap moves and reacts as fast as Bullets and even Electricity!

Facts.

#15 Posted by Chibi_cute (4545 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: WRONG That ability has been nullified because raiden was wearing a pressurized suit. I dont know where did you get that it can only work on humans. And specially cap is still human superhuman.

#16 Posted by dondave (37612 posts) - - Show Bio

Vamp

#17 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: WRONG That ability has been nullified because raiden was wearing a pressurized suit. I dont know where did you get that it can only work on humans. And specially cap is still human superhuman.

Wrong again. It works on Humans cause that is what Vamp explains. Yet Raiden Muscles were slightly different.

The fact is Cap is not a human, he had special Surgeries and Muscles to become Super Human, his body is very different from a human as the hospital staff realize when Cap drowned in Ultimantum.

How is Vamp reading his body when he stated only humans and had trouble reading Human Raiden alone? He isnt. All evidence shows otherwise.

#18 Posted by Chibi_cute (4545 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: I never heard vamp stating that he can predict movements on humans only. or did i miss something? care to provide some video? vamp stating that.?

Also captain america is still human. a superhuman is still human. hence the name superhuman.Cap's physiology might be different from the inside but im still convinced vamp can read his movements.

#19 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: I never heard vamp stating that he can predict movements on humans only. or did i miss something? care to provide some video? vamp stating that.?

Also captain america is still human. a superhuman is still human. hence the name superhuman.Cap's physiology might be different from the inside but im still convinced vamp can read his movements.

You miss understand. Vamp in the game stated he can predict the movements of Humans via their muscles. et even then he could not predict Raidens own Human muscles as well. So to say he can read anyone who is not human (Cap is not on the Biological level and Muscle Mass) at all is a flawed argument.

No he is not human. He has more and different form muscles as a result of surgeries and Super Soldier Drugs. He was Human and is more than Human. Thus Super Human.

Since Vamp failed to read Raiden who was Peak Human, he should fail utterly against Cap who is Biologically different from a Human as per the Comics statements.

#20 Edited by Chibi_cute (4545 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: I already considered raiden as a super human before he even got his cybernetic enchancements.He is not peak human.

#21 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: I already considered raiden as a super human before he even got his cybernetic enchancements.He is not peak human.

I can understand that as a Opinion. However there is no evidence of him being more than Peak Human and train to awesomeness by Foxhound.

#22 Posted by nickzambuto (13699 posts) - - Show Bio

The thing is, standard bullet dodging is not at all up to Vamp's level. Vamp toys around with machine gun fire, so if dodging bullets is someone's most impressive feat, they're pretty much confirmed as playthings for Vamp.

2:30 Vamp beyond-casually dodges assault rifle fire from several Navy SEALS

2:40 Vamp jumps down and speedblitzes a SEAL before the soldier even realizes he was there

3:10 Vamp easily weaves between assault rifle fire at close range just by spinning around

5:10 Vamp moves faster than Raiden can perceive; Snake starts shooting and Vamp seemingly disappears

6:00 Jumps down and attacks before Solid Snake can react

6:40 Deflects a stream of close range gunfire without even paying attention

6:45 Has an entire conversation in an instant

7:00 Vanishes right before Raiden's eyes, despite Jack actually STARING at him

All that from one clip. Basically, bullets are toys to Vamp and he can move faster than the eye can see and react at those same speeds. That scan you posted of Cap dodging from the guided AK, while it's not unimpressive, that's just one gun. And he STILL got shot, albiet, mildly. In this scene we can see Vamp literally spinning around to dodge every individual gunshot at close range (3:10). Basically, he would of toyed around in that training simulation that Cap found so much difficulty in.

Reacting to lightning is something Vamp hasn't done, but only because he's never faced an opponent who utilized electric attacks. If it means anything, both Naked Snake and Revolver Ocelot could easily react to lightning, and Vamp is a helluva lot faster than them! Blocking the tranquilizers isn't impressive, just because they were fired by Ultimate Hawkeye doesn't mean they traveled any faster than normal darts.

0:30 Vamp contorts his body to dodge every individual bullet, without actually moving from his spot. He does this with his eyes closed. He does get skimmed, but considering how close the range and how he clearly wasn't paying much attention, I wouldn't count it against him.

Vamp also explains his move reading ability. "Human muscles are quite eloquent. They speak out clearly what a person's next move is going to be. But your muscles... ahh, they're different. This should be fun."

Now, to be frank, I have no idea why Vamp couldn't read Raiden. I don't think it's ever actually explained. The Skull Suit is the most common answer, I've heard some people say Campbell confirms it in a CODEC conversation, but I've never been able to get that conversation so I can't say for sure. But considering Vamp could read both Solid Snake and Cyborg Raiden, I'd say it makes the most sense.

To be honest, it's just a gameplay mechanic. Kojima's idea for this fight was that the player couldn't use autoaim to beat Vamp, because he'd read your move and counter. Instead you had to aim manually. That's why Vamp couldn't read Raiden. Kojima does stuff like this a lot, blending gameplay with cutscenes and obscuring canonicity. I don't like throwing around the PIS excuse, but for this boss fight I really can't think of any other explanation. I don't think it's really worth debating over; like I said Vamp could read Snake and Cyborg Raiden, so I'm sure he can read Cap.

@cadencev2 Cap's durability and minor healing factor won't change the outcome of this battle. This isn't a fist fight, Vamp uses knives, and he wields them with enough ferocity to cut down Cyborg Raiden, who survived getting crushed by a 200,000 warship.

5:15 Vamp pierces Laughing Octopus's bullet proof tentacle with a thrown blade.

The inverse however, yields a different story. Vamp has an incredible amount of resistance to blunt force damage; Cyborg Raiden stomping on his chest couldn't incapacitate him. With that in mind, Cap really has no means of winning.

#23 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Why can Cap no beat Vamp when he does this?

Just like he did to this Healing Factor Foe?

Check Mate. :)

#24 Posted by nickzambuto (13699 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: I already considered raiden as a super human before he even got his cybernetic enchancements.He is not peak human.

At least in areas of reaction time and agility. Raiden's years as a child soldier conditioned him to live for nothing but combat, he was kept constantly drugged and brainwashed, and the psychological effects of that resulted in him developing a sort of heightened perception. Vamp originally blitzed him, but as Raiden's mission continued and his resolve hardened, his childhood memories resurfaced and he began slipping back into that Jack the Ripper state of mind (he confesses to Snake that he's starting to enjoy killing people again, despite being horrified at the beginning of the mission) Raiden developed a sort of hyper awareness due to the torturous training and conditioning he endured. He's probably enhanced human. That's how he could cut up chain gun bullets fired from Metal Gear RAY despite having no sword training.

#25 Posted by ommnomnomnom (53 posts) - - Show Bio

Captain America could do all he wants, vamp will just keep coming back. Also vamp always teases his opponents, if he was serious/bloodlusted I think cap'n would have his hands full.

#26 Posted by nickzambuto (13699 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Why can Cap no beat Vamp when he does this?

Just like he did to this Healing Factor Foe?

Check Mate. :)

Because Vamp's combat style is far too acrobatic and artistic to allow himself to get pinned like that. Kleiser was trading blows with Hulk, so he's hardly that fast. Cap doesn't have that advantage in this fight.

#27 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@chibi_cute said:

@cadencev2: I already considered raiden as a super human before he even got his cybernetic enchancements.He is not peak human.

At least in areas of reaction time and agility. Raiden's years as a child soldier conditioned him to live for nothing but combat, he was kept constantly drugged and brainwashed, and the psychological effects of that resulted in him developing a sort of heightened perception. Vamp originally blitzed him, but as Raiden's mission continued and his resolve hardened, his childhood memories resurfaced and he began slipping back into that Jack the Ripper state of mind (he confesses to Snake that he's starting to enjoy killing people again, despite being horrified at the beginning of the mission) Raiden developed a sort of hyper awareness due to the torturous training and conditioning he endured. He's probably enhanced human. That's how he could cut up chain gun bullets fired from Metal Gear RAY despite having no sword training.

....... thats awsome and I know most of this from the game....

The fact remains Cap is one of the top fighters in Ultimate Verse and has actual Super Human stats. He already beaten Healing factor guys like Vamp, only those guys were stronger and far more durable.

Chitari Alien Commander. Super Strength, Deadpool Healing, and Super Durability.

Hulk (Knocked on his Butt of all things). Super Strength, Durability like any Hulk, and Healing Factor.

Wolverine (Twice). Wolvie Healing Factor, and Superior Skill.

Sabertooth. Same as Wolverine in stats and near in skill.

Silver Herald. Super Strength, T-1000 Liquid Metal Healing.

Nuke. Super Strength, Durability, And Minor Healing like Ultimate Cap!

Look at all these guys with skill, strength,durability, and Healing Factors.

Cap beat them all.....

#28 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Correction, Vamp has never fought a Grappling foe. Only Raiden who is a striker, not a Grapller. Cap Grabs him, which is easy given Caps skills and super speed, and it is over.

#29 Posted by laflux (16018 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Have you got any scans of Cap performing submission holds or counter holds. I always seen him more as a tactical striker from his combat feats .

#30 Posted by SlimJ87D (9962 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm going to Ultimate Cap here. Vamp can get KOed with a force of a bullet to the head. A shield strike to the head by a normal man has enough Gs to well.. the video speaks for itself.

45Gs, that is a lot! This is from a normal man. Factor in Cap performing the strike and that's easily 450+Gs. That is way more damage than a bullet could cause to a human skull. Heck, Cap can throw his shield with more force than a bullet.

Now lets see all the times Vamp has been KOed.

A shield is far superior than a knife in defense and offense. Cap already has a huge advantage with gear.

Going with Ultimate Cap.

#31 Edited by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

Vamp takes this. He has more than enough speed and skill to keep up with Ultimate Cap. I could see Rodgers having the upper hand for the beginning of the fight, but he has no real way of putting him down permanently. Eventually Vamp will end up cutting the poor guys head off.

#32 Edited by SlimJ87D (9962 posts) - - Show Bio

@calebhara: You mean a shield strike at 450+Gs to his head won't have the same effect as every bullet that has ever hit Vamp in the head?

#33 Edited by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: Edit: I horribly misread your original statement, im rather tired. No i don't believe that it will have the same effect. It is an issue of a blunt force weapon vs a piercing weapon. Besides that, i don't believe that Cap has the speed or skill to tag Vamp, especially with a full powered strike. Vamp could dance around Raiden, i don't see why he couldn't dance around ultimate cap.

#34 Edited by UltimateHero0406 (2171 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Cap can do anything that Raiden has done truthfully so I don't see how that stuff matters. Plus, he could take Vamp in CQC if need be.

#35 Posted by jwalser3 (5035 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: I don't think you understand how fast Vamp was moving in that video. He was able to jump right over Raiden and Raiden didn't even know. Yes he's been K.Oed by shots to the head. But if you want to go there, remember when Cap fought Nuke in Ultimate Captain America #1. He got smashed around by someone slower then Vamp. I know you're going to go off and say that he beat him. I know he did. But hell, he got smacked around a lot in the 4 issue series.

Plus, I believe it takes more skill, and speed to deflect a bullet rather then someone using a shield that can cover their whole torso. Vamp's speed will let him dance around Cap. It's not going to be easy but Vamp can pull it off.

#36 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@calebhara said:

@slimj87d: Edit: I horribly misread your original statement, im rather tired. No i don't believe that it will have the same effect. It is an issue of a blunt force weapon vs a piercing weapon. Besides that, i don't believe that Cap has the speed or skill to tag Vamp, especially with a full powered strike. Vamp could dance around Raiden, i don't see why he couldn't dance around ultimate cap.

WTH. You think Cap is not fast enough? This guy Speed is nuts fast!

Speed

Caps speed like his strength and durability is clearly super human levels.

1) Cap dodges computer targeting AK-47 with no Shield.

2) Cap dodges bullets from Military.

3-5) Reacts and Blocks electricity attacks. He does this again for a Silver Herald.

6) Bullets dodging from 360 degrees.

7) Cap actually reacts and moves faster than the Bullet Tranqs from Hawkeye's guns! Clint clearly fires first and Cap reacts second. Great feat.

8-9) Cap Reacts to Silver Herald Electric attack after it was fired!

Cap is faster than Bullets. Its shown many times!

@jwalser3 said:

@cadencev2: I don't think you understand how fast Vamp was moving in that video. He was able to jump right over Raiden and Raiden didn't even know. Yes he's been K.Oed by shots to the head. But if you want to go there, remember when Cap fought Nuke in Ultimate Captain America #1. He got smashed around by someone slower then Vamp. I know you're going to go off and say that he beat him. I know he did. But hell, he got smacked around a lot in the 4 issue series.

Plus, I believe it takes more skill, and speed to deflect a bullet rather then someone using a shield that can cover their whole torso. Vamp's speed will let him dance around Cap. It's not going to be easy but Vamp can pull it off.

Vamp is slower than Bullets as proof of being SHOT IN THE HEAD MANY TIMES.

Nuke Smash Cap. So freaking what? Nuke is 10 times stronger and more skilled. Yet Cap at his lowest durability still beat Nuke in the second match!

Then when Nuke made it clear he was through with Cap, Cap finds a venomous snake, and sucks the poison into his mouth.

Then he spits it in Nukes eyes and beats him down in this weak condition!

So your point on Nuke first match with Cap is really no comparison to the Weaker and Less Durable Vamp.

Also all the fanboys of Vamp have yet shown PROOF of Vamp surviving Decapitation or being dismember in many pieces. Something Cap has done to Healing Factor foes!

Thats Game.

#37 Edited by jwalser3 (5035 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: He was shot in the head by Snake firing at him from a distance. Vamp didn't know he was there. I never said he had great senses.

There are other time of Vamp deflecting and dodging. Plus there is no proof that Cap could react or process Vamp's speed. Seeing(repeating myself) how Vamp is able to move faster than Snake or Radien could process. I understand he has beat people with healing factors, and I've never said anything about decapitations. I'll agree and see Vamp could possible die. Since it hasn't happened, who can really say?

#38 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3 said:

@cadencev2: He was shot in the head by Snake firing at him from a distance. Vamp didn't know he was there. I never said he had great senses.

There are other time of Vamp deflecting and dodging. Plus there is no proof that Cap could react or process Vamp's speed. Seeing(repeating myself) how Vamp is able to move faster than Snake or Radien could process. I understand he has beat people with healing factors, and I've never said anything about decapitations. I'll agree and see Vamp could possible die. Since it hasn't happened, who can really say?

Thats the thing, I showed the proof. Cap reacted Electricity after it has been surprised fired at him twice! He has reacted and move faster than Bullets that traveled distance of 15 feet!

Those are Super Human near Spider Man speed Reaction. He dodges a AK with a Computer Targeter made by Tony Stark! He is moving and dodging faster than the bullets fire and travel.

I proven many times over the Speed Cap has and is more Bullet timer than Vamp as Vamp gets shot a lot. Cap does not.

As for Vamp, I pit near Bullet Speed. Raidern in MGS4 was nowhere as lightning fast as he was in MGR. Another reason why Vamp seem really fast when in actuality MGR Raiden has a huge speed increase than his feats in MGS4.

#39 Posted by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Although all of these speed feats are impressive, it is nothing that Raiden can't do, or hasn't done. Vamps skill, combined with his speed allows him to dance around Raiden. I just don't see him landing very many powerful hits on Vamp, none that can do damage sufficient enough to KO him. Where as Vamp can cut his head off in one strike.

#40 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Although all of these speed feats are impressive, it is nothing that Raiden can't do, or hasn't done. Vamps skill, combined with his speed allows him to dance around Raiden. I just don't see him landing very many powerful hits on Vamp, none that can do damage sufficient enough to KO him. Where as Vamp can cut his head off in one strike.

We will agree to disagree.

Vamp is not faster than Cap. His feats of bullet dodging and losing to Peak Human Raiden is proof. MGS4 Raiden was like wise not a speed blizter as he was in Metal Gear Rising. Those are fact.

Cap is stronger by miles. Cap has KO Juggernaut twice, beat down 100+ toner Captain Britains, and put Hulk on his @$$.

Cap has a great Record vs Healing Factor foes, most of them are also more powerful than Vemp.

Cap also is pretty much immune to Knife attacks. Vamps main weapons.

Cap with his Shield is even more dangerous.

Cap is by feats a superior fighter.

Ultimate Cap wins hands down in a near stomp of 8/10.

#41 Posted by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Vamp is not faster than Cap. His feats of bullet dodging and losing to Peak Human Raiden is proof. MGS4 Raiden was like wise not a speed blizter as he was in Metal Gear Rising. Those are fact.

No, they are not. First of all, Raiden speed blitzes 3 suicide Gekko's in under a second in MSG4. Raiden's speed is far beyond peak human. Even before he actually acquired his enhancements in MGR he could throw about 10-20 sword slashes in a millisecond and run so fast that he could temporarily defy gravity.

Oh, and Vamp only lost because he got cocky and tried to hold Raiden down. He danced around him, dominating the entire fight.

Cap is stronger by miles. Cap has KO Juggernaut twice, beat down 100+ toner Captain Britains, and put Hulk on his @$$.

He has superior striking power, yes, but Vamp uses a sword, lifting strength and speed is what matters using a sword. Vamp can parry hits from Raiden, who even before he received his MGR enhancements he could hammer throw Metal Gears that were in the 5000+ ton range.

Now that i have seen every one of those striking feats, i am sure that i can confidently say that Cap isn't one shotting Vamp with a strike like that. He takes time to put power into each strike against his slower opponents, time that he will not have against Vamp.

Cap has a great Record vs Healing Factor foes, most of them are also more powerful than Vemp.

They do not have his speed, skill or finesse.

Cap also is pretty much immune to Knife attacks. Vamps main weapons.

They are more of just side weapons. Cap can't do much with his head cut off.

Cap is by feats a superior fighter.

Agree to disagree? I think it's close.

Ultimate Cap wins hands down in a near stomp of 8/10.

I doubt it. But yeah, Agree to disagree.

#42 Edited by nickzambuto (13699 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d Vamp didn't get knocked out from the concussive force of a bullet hitting his face. He got knocked out from a piece of lead splattering his brains out the back of his skull. I am sure you understand the sensitivity and complexity of the human brain, so it goes without saying that a 5.56x54mm machine gun round piercing such a delicate mass of tissue would be quite different from a shield bash to the head. The type of bullets Snake was using did far more than just puncture Vamp's head; the M4 would have caused his brain to explode and collapse in on itself. The fact that he was capable of recovering from the wound instantly and catching his phone midair just to finish his call, before CHOOSING to "take a nap" should tell us that, unless Cap can totally obliterate Vamp's brain with a single shield bash, he won't be taking him out.

Like I said, Vamp's healing factor isn't weaker than guys like Wolverine, it's just different. Anything that isn't immediately lethal will have no effect on him. So far, the only things proven to take Vamp down, are destruction of the brain, and bleeding him out. Each is only a temporary win. The thing about Vamp's nanomachines is that they are stated to literally halt his lifeflow; he doesn't even need to breath anymore. Vamp is virtually unbeatable, you can't knock him out, a 100 tonner repeatedly stomping on his chest didn't even make him falter. The only way to beat him is by killing him, and like I said he can only be killed temporarily. Vamp has never been dismembered or beheaded so we don't know if that would work on him, but I assume it'd be a similar case to Ultimate Wolverine, where he was still alive and conscious, but needed his head/legs to be reattached for him.

Overall, blunt force trauma is useless against Vamp.

@cadencev2 Vamp does indeed move and react faster than bullets. The only time he has ever been shot was by surprise (Raiden was aiming for Fortune, but her forcefield deflected it at Vamp without anyone noticing. Snake snuck up on him and the bullet he shot traveled at 3,000 FPS, which is faster than the sound it made, making dodging impossible. The same applies to when Raiden sniped him, Vamp was also distracted by Emma during that scene considering he was in the process of stabbing her)

I already showed an instance of Vamp dodging close range bullets with his eyes closed, and also weaving through assault rifle fire by spinning his body. Vamp plays with bullets, but dodging them is an actual chore for Cap, so it's safe to say who's faster. Vamp has plenty of speed feats that I don't think Ultimate Captain America could replicate, such as vanishing from sight before human eyes can even process his movements, running on water, and swimming like a dolphin through zero buoyancy water. By comparison, there isn't much Ultimate Cap has done that Vamp couldn't.

Also I'd like to contest your claims of White Suit Raiden being slow. By 2014, the Cyborg could effortlessly deflect bullets simply by spinning his sword fast enough to create an impenetrable shield. He blitzed three suicide Gekko in under one second with precision slices of his blade, and is quoted as tossing throwing knives at "machine gun speed". Much like Vamp, White Suit Raiden could also clear hundreds of feet of space in seconds and vanish from plain sight, even when missing an arm.

Something that I think gives Vamp a definite edge over Captain America is his knife skill and superior damage output. Like I've been over, physical strikes do zilch to Vamp, the only way to beat him is by something immediately fatal. (stabbing his heart for example won't work because it will heal before he dies. The only proves ways of defeating him are by puncturing his brain, or bleeding him out like Raiden did. His skin will heal, but nanomachines can't replace lost blood. Not at fast enough rates to keep up with Raiden at least) By comparison, Cap, while having great durability as shown against Hulk, Abomination, and even Klieser, has consistently been vulnerable to gunshots, blades, and other piercing/cutting weapons. He can heal from a knife wound in a few minutes, but Vamp is ferocious, and cuts deep. He knows various places on the human body where his cuts will draw the most blood. If this fight goes on for long, eventually Steve is going to wear out.

This also brings me to the area of technique. I know Ultimate Captain America is an extremely talented fighter, but his training is pretty limited. Standard military stuff; even Big Boss and Solid Snake had actually named masters to teach them the art of combat. But Steve Rogers got his skills from nameless combat drills. Vamp's training was never shown either, but it's obvious he had some pretty elite teachings, considering the guy is a master of so many advanced techniques and ninjitsu maneuvers. Shadow binding and muscle reading, are examples of Vamp's knowledge on fighting techniques, something I don't think Cap has. His skill feats are usually just beating opponents who are supposed to be skilled themselves or have a lot of experience, his technique itself is never shown that much. I'm not denying that Ult. Captain America is a brutal, intelligent fighter who definitely knows what he's doing, but in terms of technical knowledge and actual technique, he's never been that advanced.

There's also the matter of reaction time and agility, two areas of skill where Vamp excels at. He is quite literally dancing around Raiden's strikes with inhuman flexibility and dexterity. In fact, the two fight so fast and viciously that Raiden's sword goes red hot from the friction; you can even see smoke rise from Vamp's wounds.

Even Solid Snake praised Vamp as a "wizard with knives". He proves it to, getting the upperhand on Raiden in a close quarters knife battle before the latter "cheated" (they had agreed to an honorable duel beforehand, but Raiden feigned defeat to catch Vamp by surprise). It's impressive, beating an opponent literally dozens of hundreds of times stronger than you in a knife fight, just through pure skill. Also keep in mind, Raiden is an extremely conditioned fighter himself, singlehandedly destroying 25 Metal Gear RAYS at once and beating Solidus Snake in a sword fight despite the latter wearing a powered exoskeleton. This makes it all the more impressive that Vamp beat him.

#43 Posted by Schillinger21 (4 posts) - - Show Bio

@calebhara said:

Vamp takes this. He has more than enough speed and skill to keep up with Ultimate Cap. I could see Rodgers having the upper hand for the beginning of the fight, but he has no real way of putting him down permanently. Eventually Vamp will end up cutting the poor guys head off.

Sorry, but there is sooo much misconception in this thread about Vamp's abilities, allow me to educate everyone.

First of all regarding Vamp's speed. Vamp is NOT a bullet timer

Now the first thing I always hear is that Vamp deflected bullets fired from a Navy Seal...FALSE...If people pay attention to the video, Vamp clearly did not deflect any bullets. We do not hear bullets deflect off of his blade, and we don't see any sparks flying. Compare this to how Solidus was deflecting bullets at the end of MGS2 and you can see the clear difference. Also it would of been impossible for Vamp to have deflected bullets, not because of his speed but because of his position

The pic is a bit blurry but you can see that Vamp is facing AWAY from the seal with his knife, if the Seal was firing his gun and Vamp was in trajectory, the bullets would of hit Vamp in the back since his knife wasn't in position to deflect them.

The ONLY reason why Vamp can dodge gunfire is because of his ability to hear muscles and move before the gun is fired.

Further proof, Raiden's pressurized suit partially negated Vamp's ability. Some people believe that it fully negated it but the actual MGS2 script states that Vamp had difficulty reading Raiden's muscles, not that it was impossible

And because of that, we have this

When they fought Vamp was grazed in the face because he couldn't read Raiden's muscles entirely. He could read them partially but not fully. Point is that if Vamp could bullet time on his own accord with his own speed, he wouldn't have been grazed in the face. The entire point of Vamp's muscle reading is to give him a plausible reason on how he can dodge bullets. If Vamp could dodge bullets with his own reaction time then the entire muscle reading ability would be redundant.

And finally the infamous wall and water running...has nothing to do with speed. Vamp was given these abilities because during the development of the game Chinaman was taken out of the game, he was the boss that was suppose to have chi based abilities that let him run and walk on walls and water, these were given to Vamp...again..not a speed feat

Now that Vamp's speed myths have been debunked lets move on.

@cadencev2: Although all of these speed feats are impressive, it is nothing that Raiden can't do, or hasn't done. Vamps skill, combined with his speed allows him to dance around Raiden. I just don't see him landing very many powerful hits on Vamp, none that can do damage sufficient enough to KO him. Where as Vamp can cut his head off in one strike.

Well I've played and beaten every MGS games and I can safely say that most of those feats are not things Raiden can do. The best speed feat we've seen with Raiden before Rising is deflecting bullets with a sword which I think is hilarious because a non bullet timer like Vamp blitzed him. My theory is that Raiden wasn't aware of Vamp's abilities and was caught off guard, hence why he ended up kicking Vamp's ass later in the game. In MGS4 it's also possible that Vamp's ability to read movements worked on Raiden for some reason. Speculation but plausable, and we can all admit that MGS is just a poorly written series.

"No, they are not. First of all, Raiden speed blitzes 3 suicide Gekko's in under a second in MSG4. Raiden's speed is far beyond peak human. Even before he actually acquired his enhancements in MGR he could throw about 10-20 sword slashes in a millisecond and run so fast that he could temporarily defy gravity."

Brah..Raiden didn't speed blitz 3 Gekko. In that instance you are referring to we see 3 Suicide Gekko heading toward Snake, all of a sudden the screen goes black, we see three strikes and the Gekkos go down. We don't know what happened outside of Raiden kill 3 Gekkos. And just for the record killing 3 opponents in a few seconds is not an impressive feat. Most humans can perform 3 sword slashes in a second. In MGR He was able to throw many slashes in a few seconds but MGR isn't the version of Raiden that Vamp fought. So those feats are moot.

He has superior striking power, yes, but Vamp uses a sword, lifting strength and speed is what matters using a sword. Vamp can parry hits from Raiden, who even before he received his MGR enhancements he could hammer throw Metal Gears that were in the 5000+ ton range.

Now that i have seen every one of those striking feats, i am sure that i can confidently say that Cap isn't one shotting Vamp with a strike like that. He takes time to put power into each strike against his slower opponents, time that he will not have against Vamp.

Striking power is what's relevant here. Also Vamp has never used a sword. He uses knives, and parrying a sword strike has nothing to do with strength. There are dozens of instances of sword fighters actually sword fighting with much stronger characters. Sword fighting has to do with technique and precision. A sword strike in general is a striking feat, because a strong opponent, even as strong as Raiden, swinging a sword does not mean his sword strikes are going to be more effective than a sword strike from a weaker yet more skilled opponent.

And really, if Raiden's attacks were so powerful they would of shattered Vamp's knives despite Vamp's physical strength.

And no, at no point prior to Rising did Raiden ever throw a Metal Gear, and except for Excelus no Metal Gear ever weighed more than 500 tons, even Excelus wasn't 5000 tons...

They do not have his speed, skill or finesse.

Ultimate Wolverine, Sabertooth and others severely outclass Vamp in these regards. More importantly Vamp's regenerative abilities are laughable compared to these 2. In MGS2 Vamp gets shot by Raiden, when they meet up later Vamp still has the bullet wounds from earlier. In MGS4 it seems to have improved but he's been taken down by individual shots to the head that Wolverine and Sabertooth wouldn't have flinched at. The best we've seen Vamp heal from are bullet wounds and knife wounds. Besides that it isn't anything a skilled fighter couldn't get past.

Agree to disagree? I think it's close.

Let me explain how skill works in Metal Gear Solid. The dominant form of H2H combat is a mixture of basic Judo and Jiujitsu with some knife play thrown in. It is nothing special, and the 2 top CQC users in MGSverse, Big Boss and Solid Snake, have shown that they cannot take more than a few opponents using CQC. In Peacewalker Big Boss was captured by 4 soldiers and tortured. In MGS1 Snake was held up at gun point by 3 soldiers and captured. In Portable Ops Big Boss was destroyed by Cunningham, an overweight black man with a crippled leg. Skill in MGS is not comparable to unrealistic levels of skill in comics. Especially in regards to things like pressure points, chi based attacks, and one hit kill techniques that don't exist in a more realistic Metal Gear Universe.

The definition of skill is how well you can apply your technique, and in raw hand to hand the best CQC users in Metal Gear verse have an abysmal track record in that regard, where they beat their most powerful enemies through weaponry and battlefield tactics rather than beating their faces in.

And the best Vamp has down is shown that he's mildly skilled with knives, where Raiden is mildly skilled with swords. Neither of these 2 are spectacular, maybe for MGS standards but those standards are so low that they are unimpressive by comparison

Ultimate Cap wins hands down in a near stomp of 8/10.

I doubt it. But yeah, Agree to disagree.

I doubt it also, an 8/10 would imply that Vamp would win 2/10, when he can't even win 1/10.

If it means anything, both Naked Snake and Revolver Ocelot could easily react to lightning, and Vamp is a helluva lot faster than them!

Please tell me you didn't post this Caleb, I know you're far to intelligent to post this nonsense but in case you did. What Storm uses is lighting, what Volgin uses is an electrical attack similar to what Electro fires..an attack that can easily be dodged by a well conditioned human. An actual lighting bolt, which travels 3700 miles per second, would fry any MGS character including Rising characters before they could blink. If you didn't post this than I apologize in advance and whoever did make this post is obviously lacking a third grade education.

I hope I've educated everyone here, although some fanboys refuse to take off their goggles and look at things objectively and instead keep the dream alive in which Hideo Kojima comes to their houses and gives them a lap dance. You seem reasonable and intelligent caleb, but there are certain idiots that prefer delusion to despair

#44 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

@schillinger21

You might want to tone down the condescension, just saying. However right you may be, there's no need to throw out petty insults.

#45 Edited by Trollheim (243 posts) - - Show Bio

In Peacewalker Big Boss was captured by 4 soldiers and tortured.

He killed several soldiers in hand to hand combat, then surrendered once he got what he needed.

In MGS1 Snake was held up at gun point by 3 soldiers and captured.

The enemy captured Meryl. It is completely possible to say he surrendered himself so that he could learn what they know and attempt to gain information on her location, considering later in the game he takes out four completely invisible soldiers who all have him at gunpoint in a cramped elevator.

In Portable Ops Big Boss was destroyed by Cunningham, an overweight black man with a crippled leg.

After he just fought Grey Fox to a standstill and was surrounded by dozens of armed soldiers.

#46 Edited by tparks (5000 posts) - - Show Bio

MGS4 really did a lot against Vamp's reputation. He was a monster in Sons of Liberty, but then Guns of The Patriots was just like "durr nanomachines" and pretty much ruined the character. The great thing about Vamp, was that he was scary. An immortal, bestial vampire. When MGS4 explained it away as nanomachines, it also deprived the character of all his mystique and style. The fact that Old Snake could suddenly handle him so easily also didn't do much for the character's reputation. I believe if this thread was made in 2002, the general consensus would be Vamp stomps.

As it stands, being a well-informed and known supporter of Vamp as well as most MGS characters, the Romanian should be too much for Captain America to handle. The speed and precision it takes to block a stream of automatic bullets at close range, with nothing but a combat knife, is something Cap can not handle. Just too fast, too skilled, too monstrous. There's also the fact that, as a healer, Vamp is nearly undefeatable. Anything that is not immediately fatal (AKA a bullet through his brain) will have no effect on him; he's displayed enough masochism to smile through Raiden's HF Sword vibrating most of his internal organs to mush. It's this trait that allows Vamp to fight through grievous injuries and heal back to full capacity, whereas a normal person would be distracted by their wounds and allot the opponent time to finish them off. This does not apply to Vamp, so when dealing with him you have two options: directly puncture his brain, or bleed him out faster than he can heal. Considering Ultimate Captain America has neither the marksmanship of Solid Snake, nor the speed of Raiden, neither option is achievable by him. Ignoring the fact that Vamp has the dexterity to avoid nearly each and every one of the soldier's strikes, Cap simply does not have the means to win.

@cadencev2 said:

Ultimate Cap decimates so hard it is not even funny. I do not see a reason to post why either.

Seriously nothing Vamp has is better than what Ultimate Steve has and Ultimate Steve already beaten Healing Factor foes that were way better than Vamps Healing Factor 3 times over.

Cap dominates. Next.

Just because Captain America has fought foes with healing factors before (note: Vamp's regen isn't weaker than others, just different) that doesn't mean he can beat Vamp. I can show you what Vamp does to elite soldiers if that's all he needs to beat Steve Rogers.

I played MGS 1, 2, and 3. I still haven't played four yet. What you said about if this thread was in 2002, I completely agree with. I'm assuming they made Vamp into a jobber for MGS4, because I remember Vamp being a speedster with a healing factor. When I first read this thread, I assumed everyone was going to say that Vamp stomps.

#47 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@calebhara said:

Vamp takes this. He has more than enough speed and skill to keep up with Ultimate Cap. I could see Rodgers having the upper hand for the beginning of the fight, but he has no real way of putting him down permanently. Eventually Vamp will end up cutting the poor guys head off.

Sorry, but there is sooo much misconception in this thread about Vamp's abilities, allow me to educate everyone.

First of all regarding Vamp's speed. Vamp is NOT a bullet timer

Now the first thing I always hear is that Vamp deflected bullets fired from a Navy Seal...FALSE...If people pay attention to the video, Vamp clearly did not deflect any bullets. We do not hear bullets deflect off of his blade, and we don't see any sparks flying. Compare this to how Solidus was deflecting bullets at the end of MGS2 and you can see the clear difference. Also it would of been impossible for Vamp to have deflected bullets, not because of his speed but because of his position

The pic is a bit blurry but you can see that Vamp is facing AWAY from the seal with his knife, if the Seal was firing his gun and Vamp was in trajectory, the bullets would of hit Vamp in the back since his knife wasn't in position to deflect them.

The ONLY reason why Vamp can dodge gunfire is because of his ability to hear muscles and move before the gun is fired.

Further proof, Raiden's pressurized suit partially negated Vamp's ability. Some people believe that it fully negated it but the actual MGS2 script states that Vamp had difficulty reading Raiden's muscles, not that it was impossible

And because of that, we have this

When they fought Vamp was grazed in the face because he couldn't read Raiden's muscles entirely. He could read them partially but not fully. Point is that if Vamp could bullet time on his own accord with his own speed, he wouldn't have been grazed in the face. The entire point of Vamp's muscle reading is to give him a plausible reason on how he can dodge bullets. If Vamp could dodge bullets with his own reaction time then the entire muscle reading ability would be redundant.

And finally the infamous wall and water running...has nothing to do with speed. Vamp was given these abilities because during the development of the game Chinaman was taken out of the game, he was the boss that was suppose to have chi based abilities that let him run and walk on walls and water, these were given to Vamp...again..not a speed feat

Now that Vamp's speed myths have been debunked lets move on.

@calebhara said:

@cadencev2: Although all of these speed feats are impressive, it is nothing that Raiden can't do, or hasn't done. Vamps skill, combined with his speed allows him to dance around Raiden. I just don't see him landing very many powerful hits on Vamp, none that can do damage sufficient enough to KO him. Where as Vamp can cut his head off in one strike.

Well I've played and beaten every MGS games and I can safely say that most of those feats are not things Raiden can do. The best speed feat we've seen with Raiden before Rising is deflecting bullets with a sword which I think is hilarious because a non bullet timer like Vamp blitzed him. My theory is that Raiden wasn't aware of Vamp's abilities and was caught off guard, hence why he ended up kicking Vamp's ass later in the game. In MGS4 it's also possible that Vamp's ability to read movements worked on Raiden for some reason. Speculation but plausable, and we can all admit that MGS is just a poorly written series.

"No, they are not. First of all, Raiden speed blitzes 3 suicide Gekko's in under a second in MSG4. Raiden's speed is far beyond peak human. Even before he actually acquired his enhancements in MGR he could throw about 10-20 sword slashes in a millisecond and run so fast that he could temporarily defy gravity."

Brah..Raiden didn't speed blitz 3 Gekko. In that instance you are referring to we see 3 Suicide Gekko heading toward Snake, all of a sudden the screen goes black, we see three strikes and the Gekkos go down. We don't know what happened outside of Raiden kill 3 Gekkos. And just for the record killing 3 opponents in a few seconds is not an impressive feat. Most humans can perform 3 sword slashes in a second. In MGR He was able to throw many slashes in a few seconds but MGR isn't the version of Raiden that Vamp fought. So those feats are moot.

He has superior striking power, yes, but Vamp uses a sword, lifting strength and speed is what matters using a sword. Vamp can parry hits from Raiden, who even before he received his MGR enhancements he could hammer throw Metal Gears that were in the 5000+ ton range.

Now that i have seen every one of those striking feats, i am sure that i can confidently say that Cap isn't one shotting Vamp with a strike like that. He takes time to put power into each strike against his slower opponents, time that he will not have against Vamp.

Striking power is what's relevant here. Also Vamp has never used a sword. He uses knives, and parrying a sword strike has nothing to do with strength. There are dozens of instances of sword fighters actually sword fighting with much stronger characters. Sword fighting has to do with technique and precision. A sword strike in general is a striking feat, because a strong opponent, even as strong as Raiden, swinging a sword does not mean his sword strikes are going to be more effective than a sword strike from a weaker yet more skilled opponent.

And really, if Raiden's attacks were so powerful they would of shattered Vamp's knives despite Vamp's physical strength.

And no, at no point prior to Rising did Raiden ever throw a Metal Gear, and except for Excelus no Metal Gear ever weighed more than 500 tons, even Excelus wasn't 5000 tons...

They do not have his speed, skill or finesse.

Ultimate Wolverine, Sabertooth and others severely outclass Vamp in these regards. More importantly Vamp's regenerative abilities are laughable compared to these 2. In MGS2 Vamp gets shot by Raiden, when they meet up later Vamp still has the bullet wounds from earlier. In MGS4 it seems to have improved but he's been taken down by individual shots to the head that Wolverine and Sabertooth wouldn't have flinched at. The best we've seen Vamp heal from are bullet wounds and knife wounds. Besides that it isn't anything a skilled fighter couldn't get past.

Agree to disagree? I think it's close.

Let me explain how skill works in Metal Gear Solid. The dominant form of H2H combat is a mixture of basic Judo and Jiujitsu with some knife play thrown in. It is nothing special, and the 2 top CQC users in MGSverse, Big Boss and Solid Snake, have shown that they cannot take more than a few opponents using CQC. In Peacewalker Big Boss was captured by 4 soldiers and tortured. In MGS1 Snake was held up at gun point by 3 soldiers and captured. In Portable Ops Big Boss was destroyed by Cunningham, an overweight black man with a crippled leg. Skill in MGS is not comparable to unrealistic levels of skill in comics. Especially in regards to things like pressure points, chi based attacks, and one hit kill techniques that don't exist in a more realistic Metal Gear Universe.

The definition of skill is how well you can apply your technique, and in raw hand to hand the best CQC users in Metal Gear verse have an abysmal track record in that regard, where they beat their most powerful enemies through weaponry and battlefield tactics rather than beating their faces in.

And the best Vamp has down is shown that he's mildly skilled with knives, where Raiden is mildly skilled with swords. Neither of these 2 are spectacular, maybe for MGS standards but those standards are so low that they are unimpressive by comparison

Ultimate Cap wins hands down in a near stomp of 8/10.

I doubt it. But yeah, Agree to disagree.

I doubt it also, an 8/10 would imply that Vamp would win 2/10, when he can't even win 1/10.

If it means anything, both Naked Snake and Revolver Ocelot could easily react to lightning, and Vamp is a helluva lot faster than them!

Please tell me you didn't post this Caleb, I know you're far to intelligent to post this nonsense but in case you did. What Storm uses is lighting, what Volgin uses is an electrical attack similar to what Electro fires..an attack that can easily be dodged by a well conditioned human. An actual lighting bolt, which travels 3700 miles per second, would fry any MGS character including Rising characters before they could blink. If you didn't post this than I apologize in advance and whoever did make this post is obviously lacking a third grade education.

I hope I've educated everyone here, although some fanboys refuse to take off their goggles and look at things objectively and instead keep the dream alive in which Hideo Kojima comes to their houses and gives them a lap dance. You seem reasonable and intelligent caleb, but there are certain idiots that prefer delusion to despair

Holy S**t so much awespme in this post and alot of good facts.

1) MGS4 Raiden is not anywhere near as fast as MGR Raiden who had Upgrades!

2) Vamp Healing is so weak, he was KOed from a bullet to the head 4 seperate times!

3) Vamp cannot deflect Bullets, he reads the muscles and dodges them altogether.

Get over it people, Cap stomps.

#48 Posted by jashro44 (21918 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: I'm pretty sure its Dex_Starr on an alternate account. Probably best to not encourage him.

#49 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@cadencev2: I'm pretty sure its Dex_Starr on an alternate account. Probably best to not encourage him.

.......... Whyyyyyy!............

It was a well dont post either way. This sums it up IMO as well.