@lordraiden: I understand what your problem is but there's a slight difference between the Destroyer/Odinsword and Jarnbjorn's Celestial killing enchantment. Basically, the Destroyer was meant to be a failsafe against the Celestials built by Odin and the rest of Earth's major gods as well as designed with the purpose of fighting Celestials. When it came down to it though, the Celestials outclassed the Destroyer by a fair margin.
In contrast, Jarnbjorn was specifically enchanted by Thor on the suggestion of Kang impersonating Loki. It's basically a Celestial killing plot device as its purpose was to kill Celestials due to the nature of its enchantment. I admit it's a major oversight that this plot device came into play recently when Odin fought the Celestials in the Destroyer armour in a storyline from decades ago but such is the way of writing convenience.
@jashro44: Thor has the strength to do so but if he wielded a regular axe I don't think the axe would hold up against the Frost Giants. It might even break on their skin considering even ROXXON's reputed dive team and their high tech equipment couldn't even harm the Frost Giants.
@thedailybagel: Not sure where he stops but he surely doesn't get pass Hulk. People are overrating Jabjorn as per usual with anything involving Thor... The weapon was made to kill celestials, that's the reason it harmed Apocalypse so damn easy considering his body is made up with Celestial Tech. There's nothing suggesting the weapon is going to cut through anything because it can kill Celestials, it's literally a plot device weapon against them and Hulk is still faster than Thor and would easily react to Thor's movements and KO him rather easily on my eyes. There's is no lightning helping Thor here, he would gets smacked around. Im on the side of the people saying Jabjorn can't harm Hulk as it does to other people and that Hulk should take the win rather easily considering the lack of versatility and striking power on Thor's side.
@thedailybagel: Not sure where he stops but he surely doesn't get pass Hulk. People are overrating Jabjorn as per usual with anything involving Thor... The weapon was made to kill celestials, that's the reason it harmed Apocalypse so damn easy considering his body is made up with Celestial Tech. There's nothing suggesting the weapon is going to cut through anything because it can kill Celestials, it's literally a plot device weapon against them and Hulk is still faster than Thor and would easily react to Thor's movements and KO him rather easily on my eyes. There's is no lightning helping Thor here, he would gets smacked around. Im on the side of the people saying Jabjorn can't harm Hulk as it does to other people and that Hulk should take the win rather easily considering the lack of versatility and striking power on Thor's side.
@thedailybagel: Not sure where he stops but he surely doesn't get pass Hulk. People are overrating Jabjorn as per usual with anything involving Thor... The weapon was made to kill celestials, that's the reason it harmed Apocalypse so damn easy considering his body is made up with Celestial Tech. There's nothing suggesting the weapon is going to cut through anything because it can kill Celestials, it's literally a plot device weapon against them and Hulk is still faster than Thor and would easily react to Thor's movements and KO him rather easily on my eyes. There's is no lightning helping Thor here, he would gets smacked around. Im on the side of the people saying Jabjorn can't harm Hulk as it does to other people and that Hulk should take the win rather easily considering the lack of versatility and striking power on Thor's side.
Also you really think that Hulk is going to effortlessly K.O Thor before he lands a blow with the Ax? Even if we take the idea that the Ax is a celestial weakness, its still being wielded by someone who is more than strong enough to harm him and do damage. Again as others have said Hulk isn't going to easily react to Thor. He's faster than him, but no the point where he'll be blitzing. In fact if Hulk wasn't faster than Thor I would say he wins every time in spite of weather the Ax's properties. Thor will do alot more damage to the Hulk with an Ax blow, than Hulk will with punches. Hulk needs to be stronger and faster to win this fight, because Thor's damage output surpasses him considerably, and I question if is quite strong and fast enough if I'm honest.
There is nothing for you to state that Hulk won't be seriously harmed by the Ax if it connects. Thor's strength alone will cause damage. Also why is there no lightning? Lightning is an ability which is innate to Thor independent of his Hammer.
@foolsgold: Mjonir amps Thor's capabilities with the lightning, all Thor has without it is Weather Control which isn't enough to harm Hulk when he has taken huge lightnings and kept fighting like nothing happened from a Warrior's Madness Thor in the past. Moreover, im not implying Thor wouldn't land hits on Hulk but Hulk is actually signficantly faster than Thor in all speed related areas sans traveling, i mean, Thor can't even fly right now, what's stopping Hulk from leaping at Mach 34 towards him and landing several blows on Thor's face? Implying Thor will do more damage to Hulk with the Axe than he does with Mjolnir is nothing more than a baseless overstatement considering Mjolnir is actually the most powerful asgardian weapon ever created. As for the Axe, im still skeptical it would do any significant damage to Hulk when Wolverine himself still claims it's very hard to cut Hulk even while having the most effective material in cutting Hulk so far. I could agree the weapon won't break, but i don't see Thor dismembering anyone but rather performing external damage and bruises.
I think he stops at 5, which should be much higher. If not should stop at Hulk. Hulk's combat speed as recent as Indestructible has been shown to be very good, and we've seen Thor struggle with faster characters. Unlikely Mjolnir, there's nothing stopping Hulk from knocking Jarbjorn from Thor's hand.
Still, I think 5 should do it. Current Thor doesn't have is elemental versatility, so how's he going to contend with Carol and Tony flying and blasting? Especially when Carol can amp herself continually.
I think he stops at 5, which should be much higher. If not should stop at Hulk. Hulk's combat speed as recent as Indestructible has been shown to be very good, and we've seen Thor struggle with faster characters. Unlikely Mjolnir, there's nothing stopping Hulk from knocking Jarbjorn from Thor's hand.
Still, I think 5 should do it. Current Thor doesn't have is elemental versatility, so how's he going to contend with Carol and Tony flying and blasting? Especially when Carol can amp herself continually.
He could leap after them. Personally I question if the people in 5 can really hurt thor which is why people like wolverine and gamora are higher than them.
@foolsgold: Mjonir amps Thor's capabilities with the lightning, all Thor has without it is Weather Control which isn't enough to harm Hulk when he has taken huge lightnings and kept fighting like nothing happened from a Warrior's Madness Thor in the past. Moreover, im not implying Thor wouldn't land hits on Hulk but Hulk is actually significantly faster than Thor in all speed related areas sans traveling, i mean, Thor can't even fly right now, what's stopping Hulk from leaping at Mach 34 towards him and landing several blows on Thor's face? Implying Thor will do more damage to Hulk with the Axe than he does with Mjolnir is nothing more than a baseless overstatement considering Mjolnir is actually the most powerful asgardian weapon ever created. As for the Axe, im still skeptical it would do any significant damage to Hulk when Wolverine himself still claims it's very hard to cut Hulk even while having the most effective material in cutting Hulk so far. I could agree the weapon won't break, but i don't see Thor dismembering anyone but rather performing external damage and bruises.
Thor's hammer deals in Blunt force attacks, which Hulk is quite resistant too. Grey Hulk, one of the weakest of the Hulk's destroyed an Asteroid three times the size of earth- and yet Wolverine was still able to one shot him temporarily at base. Thor's hammer is more powerful and better than the Ax, because he can do stuff like drain, BFR, it funnels his God Blast making it stronger, Anti-Force, Energy Channeling etc. That's why it is better. But in terms of causing more damage, Hulk is more susceptible to cutting Damage, which is what the Ax is going to be dealing with. So saying it will do more damage isn't really baseless- in fact I would counter by saying its rather short-sighted to simply announce Thor's Hammer is more powerful than Thor's Ax without looking at the reasons why, and applying them to the context of the battle at hand. And I would contest Adamantuim being the best material cut Hulk with. Its the best earthly material to cut Hulk with sure, but Asgardian weaponry is often enchanted, which further amps it beyond what its normal physical levels would be. Case in point, Thor withstood sustained slashes from Wolverine without sustaining much damage, yet Angela was able to pretty much Two shot Thor without much trouble. Its the same principle which allows Thor's Ax to be so potent against Celestials, in my eyes anyway.
As for Hulk leaping at Thor at Mach 34? Hulk was probably capable of reaching speeds similar to that before his amp (as he was able to reach Lower Orbit by Jumping in a few seconds), back when he was substantially weaker. Hulk has not really fought like that against Thor like that ever in the history of fights they have had. I will be the first one to admit that Hulk is faster than he used to be. But I get the feeling that people are overstating his speed increase, when honestly, alot of the feats he's performed thus far are not too far off what he was doing in the Classic days (moving faster than people could see, catching RPG's, turning around and catching Cap's shield while his back was turned, jumping into lower orbit etc.). Yet despite that, it translated into less than stellar combat speed showing against alot of nimble street-levelers, and Thor was always able to keep up with him relatively fine.
I think he stops at 5, which should be much higher. If not should stop at Hulk. Hulk's combat speed as recent as Indestructible has been shown to be very good, and we've seen Thor struggle with faster characters. Unlikely Mjolnir, there's nothing stopping Hulk from knocking Jarbjorn from Thor's hand.
Still, I think 5 should do it. Current Thor doesn't have is elemental versatility, so how's he going to contend with Carol and Tony flying and blasting? Especially when Carol can amp herself continually.
He could leap after them. Personally I question if the people in 5 can really hurt thor which is why people like wolverine and gamora are higher than them.
Carol's power is really underrated, she's blown up city-sized starships in her basic form, without powering up/drawing evergy in from ambient sources (or going Binary where she's a planet buster). Now I'm not Tony expert, but I've been told he's "planetary level" (I question that personally) and Carol has powered herself off of Tony's suit (she's done so before in a confrontation with him). She-Hulk, from what I'm told because I'm not expert on her, is quite skilled and Thor is notorious for having trouble with skilled fighters.
Gamora, currently, is more impressive on paper than by what she's done. I'd honestly say she's like Deathstroke level as for what she's currently shown. DnA era Gamora was much stronger, and all around more impressive, but I'd still consider her weaker that Carol overall and Gamora (current, DnA, or total canon) would lose a majority to Carol.
Just my thoughts on Gamora as a big GotG fan. I understand the logic behind Logan, and honestly Thor could stop there as well if he doesn't have magic in his current state. We've seen Logan dance around him before (I still think it's Thor jobbing personally) and unless this axe can cut through adamantium Logan should get him. Unless Thor suddenly fights a lot smarter than previously.
@granitesoldier: Eh, is Carol going to turn Binary morals on? In anycase Thor has been in the center of stars without any problems whatsoever. I haven't really heard anything of Carol possessing any of that power, but I may be wrong. I honestly don't see Tony doing much- and unless I missed something recently Tony isn't even Continent level. She-Hulk is pretty skilled for a brick, but I'm not sure TBH. She Hulk used skill to take down Abomination. Guys on Thor's level (Hercules), has outright one-shotted him before. She-Hulk's skill, for me, is more of an aid in taking out more nimble foes who cause more of a danger to her, as well as dealing with people moderately above her pay-grade. She was after-all, nearly one-shotted by Wendigo, and he's just a strong mindless brute.
Carol's power is really underrated, she's blown up city-sized starships in her basic form, without powering up/drawing evergy in from ambient sources (or going Binary where she's a planet buster). Now I'm not Tony expert, but I've been told he's "planetary level" (I question that personally) and Carol has powered herself off of Tony's suit (she's done so before in a confrontation with him). She-Hulk, from what I'm told because I'm not expert on her, is quite skilled and Thor is notorious for having trouble with skilled fighters.
I wont debate all of your points since this is my thread but in regards to iron man he isn't planetary level, especially not in the black and gold armor. In his bleeding edge armor he is roughly magneto tier. iN his black and gold armor he is significantly weaker. He is maybe a bit above Carol from what I have seen.
Gamora, currently, is more impressive on paper than by what she's done. I'd honestly say she's like Deathstroke level as for what she's currently shown. DnA era Gamora was much stronger, and all around more impressive, but I'd still consider her weaker that Carol overall and Gamora (current, DnA, or total canon) would lose a majority to Carol.
I agree based on original sin however thor has been taken out by a pressure point from mantis before. I guess you can argue that Gamora hasn't shown knowledge of asgardian physiology but I figured it could be an interesting discussion. All though I don't know if there is evidence gamora knows asgardian pressure points. The other issue is using them on thor.
Just my thoughts on Gamora as a big GotG fan. I understand the logic behind Logan, and honestly Thor could stop there as well if he doesn't have magic in his current state. We've seen Logan dance around him before (I still think it's Thor jobbing personally) and unless this axe can cut through adamantium Logan should get him. Unless Thor suddenly fights a lot smarter than previously.
Well something I feel doesn't get talked about when people bring up wolverine and thors fight is that wolverine didn't do to much damage to thor. Yea he said his asgardian hide wouldn't hold out forever but he was barely cut. I don't think its impossible for thor to tag wolverine and thor does have some decent speed feats on contrary to popular belief. There just not beyond street level. Personally I think with thors durability and speed, and under these conditions he also has reach going for him he might be able to tag logan, and with no morals I say he one shots him. He also showed in his fight with gorr that he can deal with stabbing damage (IIRC Gorr was stabbing him in the chest and he ignored the pain and kept going) so even when wolverine does get past his durability I think thor can still fight....
All though thats why I threw X-23 in that fight. Makes things a bit tougher for thor IMO.
@granitesoldier: Eh, is Carol going to turn Binary morals on? In anycase Thor has been in the center of stars without any problems whatsoever. I haven't really heard anything of Carol possessing any of that power, but I may be wrong. I honestly don't see Tony doing much- and unless I missed something recently Tony isn't even Continent level. She-Hulk is pretty skilled for a brick, but I'm not sure TBH. She Hulk used skill to take down Abomination. Guys on Thor's level (Hercules), has outright one-shotted him before. She-Hulk's skill, for me, is more of an aid in taking out more nimble foes who cause more of a danger to her, as well as dealing with people moderately above her pay-grade. She was after-all, nearly one-shotted by Wendigo, and he's just a strong mindless brute.
Like I said I don't read Iron Man, but every time I've seen people bring him up he's always "planetary level". I've never found him to be "planetary" in any armor personally, but I get fanboy swarmed that Tony is. personally, I don't buy it. Carol has gone Binary morals on, but its when things are dire. If people start dying, I wouldn't be surprised if she did. Binary taps into the power of "white dwarf stars" to power her, just to address your star comment. Is She-Hulk really not that strong? I don't know anything about her as well, but I heard she was stronger than Thing, who's pretty damn strong, which is why I was thinking this team might be a bit much. However if She-Hulk and Tony are not what I've heard them to be, then this team might not cut it.
@jashro44: Like I said above, I don't read Iron Man and will happily accept him being below planet level, which he has never at all appeared to me. Gamora could know Asgardian physiology as she has, in on-panel but statement form, learned roughly 85% of ALL combat forms and species in the galaxy from Thanos. So, could she know it? Certainly seems likely, especially given the number of run ins Thor has had with Thanos, but like you said it up for (interesting) debate. But Gamora also got taken down by a (singular) shot from some random cosmic bounty hunter with a stun gun. So, current Gamora is either going to beat Thor with quick pressure points (debatable) or die (more likely).
I'll accept what you're saying about Wolverine, as I've only heard of the encounter and never read it. Seems like Thor could probably still KO Logan and cut up Laura.
@thedailybagel: Not sure where he stops but he surely doesn't get pass Hulk. People are overrating Jabjorn as per usual with anything involving Thor... The weapon was made to kill celestials, that's the reason it harmed Apocalypse so damn easy considering his body is made up with Celestial Tech. There's nothing suggesting the weapon is going to cut through anything because it can kill Celestials, it's literally a plot device weapon against them and Hulk is still faster than Thor and would easily react to Thor's movements and KO him rather easily on my eyes. There's is no lightning helping Thor here, he would gets smacked around. Im on the side of the people saying Jabjorn can't harm Hulk as it does to other people and that Hulk should take the win rather easily considering the lack of versatility and striking power on Thor's side.
Stop overrating Hulk and lowballing Thor.
Sure, Jarnbjorn is especially for celestial armor, but it is still wielded by someone with enough strength to damage Hulk even without the axe.
Hulk is faster than Thor, but he would not react as easily as you are saying, stop overrating his speed. Hulk won´t KO Thor easily as you are saying, Thor regularly faces more powerful enemies than Hulk and tanks their hits with no problem, I already explained this to you in another thread..
Yes, there is lighting helping Thor in this, he still has the ability to use it without Mjolnir. Not to mention his weather control and incredibly superior versatility.
Lol, lack of versatility on Thor´s side ? Against Hulk ? That´s a joke, right ?
Without Mjolnir Hulk has better striking power, but the gap between him and Thor´s striking power is small, stop lowballing Thor.
@granitesoldier: Yea I hard about the bounty hunter thing. Bucky seemed to be countering and avoiding her easily in original sin. As I understand it Gamora has always been inconsistent.
As for the wolverine vs thor fight here you go:
Gallery
Thor did block one strike with his hammer and did grab Logan but he decided to toss him instead of punching him for some reason.
@havenless: no he hasn't. Thor has one shotted him before...
that was a long time ago... more recently Namor hung with him evenly
Gallery
Yeah, in group 5 Captain Marvel and Thing distract his axe hand while Namor and She-Hulk beat him half to death. Iron Man annoys him from afar with repulsor blasts.
Those 5 guys could take down the Hulk pretty handedly, and he's the 10th guy on this list... alone?
@havenless: no he hasn't. Thor has one shotted him before...
that was a long time ago... more recently Namor hung with him evenly
Gallery
Yeah, in group 5 Captain Marvel and Thing distract his axe hand while Namor and She-Hulk beat him half to death. Iron Man annoys him from afar with repulsor blasts.
Those 5 guys could take down the Hulk pretty handedly, and he's the 10th guy on this list... alone?
Namor has had lots of different showings. He's also struggled with spider-man, lost to thing underwater, etc. And all though there is this encounter, thor has also one shotted namor in the rain:
I know you guys already mentioned this but I figured I would post the scan. Namor is not a threat to thor in a one on one scenario.
Clears. For the sake of taking the general consensus of him being slow into account I'll come up with two arguments.
1. Even without Mjolnir he is still way too versatile and powerful for any of these guys. He can still ,since he has no morals here, spam lightning and AOE attacks and with his striking power combined with Jarnbjorn should decapitate anyone here maybe except Hulk and Herc
2. Since this is morals off, Thor speedblitzes everybody to death. Yes you heard right. Thor Will Blitz. Thor has many super speed feats and 5 of them(more or less) involves speedblitzing and I'm not talking about bullrushing. All while ,again, spamming lightning of course.
Clears. For the sake of taking the general consensus of him being slow into account I'll come up with two arguments.
1. Even without Mjolnir he is still way too versatile and powerful for any of these guys. He can still ,since he has no morals here, spam lightning and AOE attacks and with his striking power combined with Jarnbjorn should decapitate anyone here maybe except Hulk and Herc
2. Since this is morals off, Thor speedblitzes everybody to death. Yes you heard right. Thor Will Blitz. Thor has many super speed feats and 5 of them(more or less) involves speedblitzing and I'm not talking about bullrushing. All while ,again, spamming lightning of course.
Clears. For the sake of taking the general consensus of him being slow into account I'll come up with two arguments.
1. Even without Mjolnir he is still way too versatile and powerful for any of these guys. He can still ,since he has no morals here, spam lightning and AOE attacks and with his striking power combined with Jarnbjorn should decapitate anyone here maybe except Hulk and Herc
2. Since this is morals off, Thor speedblitzes everybody to death. Yes you heard right. Thor Will Blitz. Thor has many super speed feats and 5 of them(more or less) involves speedblitzing and I'm not talking about bullrushing. All while ,again, spamming lightning of course.
Someone has balls...
I'd like to see evidence of feats to suggest speedblitz and weather control without Mjolnir personally. I've seen no evidence of neither, and most seem to be stating Thor has no weather control without Mjolnir.
Now, I don't read Thor's ongoing, but I've never seen any indication of being fast in combat. Travel speed, yeah, I've seen the "FTL" scans, but I want to see him reacting in combat.
@jashro44: I think that Jarnbjorn is just a normal axe designed for Gods and demigods. It might have some power in it but it is nowhere near Mjolnir's level. The thing about it killing a Celestial is probably because it has some kind of enhancment that makes it a Celestial killer and it only sticks to Celestials and no other being
But that is just my point of view.
Yea thats what I understand from it. But I haven't read up on it yet.
The axe was able to cut Thors arm off clean.It may be enchanted to cut celestial armour but I think that proves it can cut other highly durable beings too. That means one good swing to the neck and I'm fairly certain Thor could decapitate Hulk.
Possibly. How strong is Malkith though?
He's strong but nowhere near the likes of Thor,Hulk etc, I'd say around Spiderman strength maybe? He relies almost completely on magic, he rarely relies on his strength.
The Handbooks put him in the 90 ton range. Not sure what strength feats he has though.
@granitesoldier: Those are just a few examples of Thor using his weather manipulation without Mjolnir. On top of my head I also remember him recently using it against Malekith and many more times during his classic incarnation (I didn't bother posting any of these because they always get lowballed/denied because they're so old).
As far as speed blitzing is concerned, I do not remember any instance of this happening without Mjolnir.
Not sure is people are retarded enough to think that weakened Thor can beat Hercules.
What? Thor is still as physical strong as he was with his hammer,literally nothing has changed in that regard except his striking power has slightly decreased,he still has lightening ,which Hercules is too slow to dodge, and an axe that is capable of cutting Hercules limbs and heads off, he beats Hercules.
because it was enchanted to specifically do that. It does nothing special to non Celestial any more than any other axe would. Stop trying to make the axe into something it not.
Could stop at 6 or 9 but definitely stops at 10. Hercules is Thor's physical equal and better in skill but Thor would then employ lightning bolts to even the score just like he did in Blood Oath against a drunken Hercules' headlock. Caused Herc quite a bit of pain from what I remember.
He'd have more trouble with Hercules than Black Bolt though IMO. Herc should be Round 9 whereas Bolt should be Round 6. Granted, Bolt could go for a one hit KO with a voice that has one shotted Hulk and Gladiator before but he'd only get one shot doing so. After that, his electron reserves are drained and if he hadn't KOed Thor by then, it's over for Bolt.
But I can't see him beating Hulk without Mjolnir. With it, I'll back Thor for a slim majority always since the hammer is far too versatile, powerful and gives Thor at least an equal, if not superior striking edge to Hulk. Without it, Thor is completely outclassed in every way outside of piercing damage and maybe versatility due to his weather control. Hulk is stronger, hits harder, is more durable, moves faster in combat speed and regenerates faster from damage. Unworthy Thor isn't clearing this gauntlet.
In what way is Hulk stronger ? In theory he is potentially stronger since he has the ability to get stronger when is enraged then again it depend on which hulk your talking about.
Um his feats and showings dwarf those of Thor by a fair margin? Hulk is stronger, more durable and has better stamina than Thor. Thor could surpass Hulk in striking power with Mjolnir but without it here, Hulk has the clear edge. Still, I have been coming round to the view that Thor's Celestial Killing axe might be sharp enough to cut through Hulk in a few slices. Either that or Thor gets overpowered by Hulk's superior physicals.
@ghostravage: I was almost swinging back to Thor taking a majority but you've pulled me back with your case. There's also the fact that Thor slashed Malekith with the same Celestial Killing axe and it only cut his stomach a bit. Either Aaron doesn't know about the enchantment or it's only poison to Celestials, not anything else.
@havenless: Thor still has his lightning that knocked out Hulk. Plus who poses a threat to him exactly ? Carol ? Tony ? Namor got one-shot by Thor under rain.
@ghostravage: I was almost swinging back to Thor taking a majority but you've pulled me back with your case. There's also the fact that Thor slashed Malekith with the same Celestial Killing axe and it only cut his stomach a bit. Either Aaron doesn't know about the enchantment or it's only poison to Celestials, not anything else.
@granitesoldier: I remember arguing with you about She-Hulk when she was pitted against Flash Thompson. She is very firmly in the Brick catergory, and I believe she has enough feats to consider her a solid 100 (Despite what Matt Fraction depicting her topping out 85 tonnes). But she is well below the likes of Herc, Thor, Hulk, Glads etc.
She's more likely in line with Thing, Ptior and Namor TBH.
I'm assuming you're talking about this scan right mate?
And I guess the fact that makes this feat even better is that it wasn't wielded by Thor when this happened? That adds a new wrinkle to the final fight of this gauntlet, I admit. Still, Hulk does have the chance to overpower Thor physically before that happens. Thor only has one chance of winning without Mjolnir, Hulk has many.
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