Unpopular Battle opinions

@banestrokelobogrundybatarrow: Clayface laughs as he proceeds to smother Bane, who can do literally nothing about it.

Flash>Silver Surfer without any effort whatsoever.

TRUE (but with prep he is pretty BA)

What do you think the word effort means?

Sometimes I find Wonder Woman's fighting skills to be heavily overrated.

When Naruto characters are overwanked by some debaters

To an extent, I agree with this.

@jashro44:

Superman has stated he doesn't move beyond the speed of sound in city environments and he's blitzed deathstroke before as well.

Superman is a hypocrite, he has on multiple times went above the speed of sound; Clark was running around 2200 mph (something along these lines) troughout Metropolis.

Shadow of the bat #73. Anyways doing some quick research tsunamis a small tsunami wave would be 30 meters high (we see batman jump over the wave so it wasn't that high). I don't think that wave meets the requirements of a tsunami, I guess you could say the water was moving at high speeds though. That and batman was knocked out by the rock hitting him in the head so he didn't actually tank the damage.

He did tank the damage as the indicator said: ''An underground stream has been diverted by the shifting rock. It bursts over HIMwith the force of a tsunami--''. How exactly can you say that it was a small tsunami? I showed you scans and evidence of it being a powerful earthquake. I showed you scans of Gotham being broken into pieces.

Who Namor? He is consistently a class 100.

The same Namor that has striking power enough to punch Iron Man and send him flying away through a small building?

''Road to Civil War'' or something like that. I read this months ago, so I don't remember what story it was.

It was actually more than 2 hits and Steve was still standing.

Standing? Sure, he was still standing, but do you know what happened after that incident? He was barely alive after that ( I don't have the scans right now, but since you have read Civil War yourself, I'm certain that you most likely remember it).

Snyder already confirmed the league was weakened and not at full strength. I think this is why despite being bloodlusted wonder woman slamming batman into the ground only caused a small crater, and superman was taken out by such a small amount of krytonite. The leagues power levels seemed to be below what they normally are IMO.

I didn't mention anything about Superman. I'm aware that Wonder Woman wasn't fully powered as Bruce himself said that she isn't on her normal power levels. Regardless, it still created a giant crater on the ground and he was still standing (without his armor).

This is an electrical attack and batmans suit is insulated. Stephanie Brown tanked lightning from live wire effortlessly before, and live wire is a superman villain. Batmans suit is insulated very well. I'll concede when it comes to electricity batman is more durable than cap or deathstroke.

Regardless of who Steph took it from, it doesn't matter. Orm's lightning was very very powerful as it knocked out Wonder Woman and Superman......

1. Gambit said he wasn't trying to hurt moon knight.

Doesn't matter: an explosion stil happened.

2. The explosion cap tanked was way larger:

That wasn't a very big explosion compared to what Bruce has tanked (without any sings of pain). That's an ok durability feat at best whereas Batman has a similar feat like that; just that the explosion he tanked was bigger. I don't have the scans with me now, but he suvived an RPG missile straight to his own body, and he came out without any harm. His suit was damaged a little, but that was it, nothing more.

Well I'll just drop this and we can agree to disagree. If you are referring to nigthwing vs super-bat keep in mind batman was weakened due to not going out in the sunlight.

Agree, but I was refering to the running speed of Clark Kent himself.

Batman wouldn't be capable of that feat regardless of venoms weight. Plus this also ignores the 3rd scan I uploaded when Peter and venom weren't falling and Peter did the exact same thing. he sent venom flying with enough force that he created large craters in the ground and sent cars in the air:

I know Batman wouldn't send him flying, but he could damage him if he was not holding back. Also, I didn't ignore it, I answered to why it happened. Sure, he sent Venom flying, but it was Venom's own body. I remember seeing a scan where Spiderman wasn't holding back, and he punched Punisher with most of his force and nothing got damaged. I also doubt the same thing would happened if it would have beem someoen like Deathstroke, Daredevil etc...

I'm not sure what your point here is. Neither batman (without his armor) or deathstroke can take a bullet to the head. Slade has been incapacitated by a bullet to the head on multiple occasions.

Slade has, but he didn't get as damaged as Cap.

Caps enhancements would include durability which would also have been suppressed at the time. Not like it matters.

How did he come back if his enhancments weren't as powerful as they were to be able to bring him back?

Same would have happened to batman or deathstroke (and has actually happened to deathstroke more than once)....

Same wouldn't have happened to Batman; in fact, he has already been shot at his head before, but his armor was able to bounce it of. Slade at least didn't get ass hurt.

This seems like circular logic. You're proving batman hit harder than the force of a missile and that deathstroke tanking his hits is a good durability feat, by bringing up how durable deathstroke is?

Not sure what you meant here, but my point of that thing was just to bring up his endurance and durability.

Bronze tiger is mostly hype. His claim to fame is beating a less skilled version of batman. Aside from that he has no wins against top tier fighters, and all his fights against other top tier fighters are inconclusive.

He's not all hype; not at all when he has the showings.

This actually supports Slade's combat speed of being above Cap's even more. Being able to hang with someone who has speed capable of doing this is very good for Slade. This also supports that Bronze Tiger isn't mostly hyped. He's also one-shotted Chesire, I believe.

Deathstroke never stomped batman, unless your referring to chuck dixons run where Bruce did eventually beat deathstroke.

Yes, he actually has when he became serious:

Seems like a stomp, and as he himself said: ''I'm stronger. I'm faster''. This is another showing which give Slade the speed advantage.

Yes which is very impressive. That was just one feat I listed for Steve. There is also the time he out ran a bullet just like Cassandra cain, and dodged a point blank bullet after it was fired.

He outran a bullet, but yet has slower speed than Daredevil; seems legitimate to me. Dodging bullets after they have been fired isn't impressive for street levelers anymore. Basically, it's something street levelers do all the time.

Difference being is Steve tossing his shield has to do with strength. IIRC Mocking bird has commented she had a hard time fighting with it because it was so heavy. Likewise the shield doesn't cleave through regular humans when Steve doesn't want it to. Steve would have to be throwing the shield with absurd levels of force to throw it through a helicopter, tanks.

Plus as I said he tosses it with enough force it out paces missiles.

This is in the lifting category which won't help that much when Slade is superior in striking power, and if we go to this category, then Slade recently (in Deathstroke #2) easily pushed up a huge piece of rock. He also ripped of the door of an airplane while in the air.

No. Steve has shown better technique than Slade, plus he is battle tested without his enhancements. He's beaten crossbones without the super soldier serum, beaten a group of super soldiers in the body of a 90 pound weakling, etc. He's shown the ability to use the leverage of class 100's to toss them around, he's shown better pressure point knowledge than Slade has, etc. Combat wise they are compareable but in terms of showings of raw technique Steve has Slade beat. I still don't see evidence of Slade being faster or smarter...

I showed evidence for Slade being faster, he's waaaay smarter as he has on multiple occasions used his intelligence to fight the Teen Titans and we all know what happened in Identity Crisis. I don't know how you interperated skill as being H2H. Slade is more skilled due to swords, firearm, tactical mind and he is just as good in H2H as Cap is.

Right. So Canary isn't on the same tier batman, unlike daredevil and Cap who are on the same tier.

Of course Batman is a tier above her, she can give him a good match in H2H, but he's a tier above.

There is a growing opinion that thing's should not be discounted because of PIS, or WIS. I strongly disagree with that.

I agree with this, and anything DMC related and the jutsu Amaterasu that thing is featless, yet it always considered super, amazing, viable.

I have more.

1. Batmans prep feats and gadgets are hugely overrated

2. Elektra is underrated

3. Daredevil > Nightwing

4. Iron Fist could beat any other street leveler except black panther (he's pretty much too strong to be street level)

5. Black panther is a complete beast who can take batman easily

6. New 52 superman has pathetic durability

7. MCU Captain America is close to his comic version

8. Bullseye is underrated

9. Hawkeye can take green arrow

10. If someone wields magic and is unbound by PIS, they can take almost any non-magic user easily

11. Hit girl is underrated

12. Current green arrow is weak

13. Batman could probably take Spider-Man

14. Hulk is stronger than superman

15. Namor crushes aquaman

Naruto characters are wanked to the point that I'd honestly like them to be banned like DBZ. Which is funny coming from me considering pre-shippuden Naruto is one of my favorite Manga's of all time.

@marvel34: THIS! A thousand times this! I had this other guy in this thread tell me daredevil could only give batman a fight in H2H bc of speed, but he doesn't understand that knowing martial arts and using them right are two different things

PIS is a ridiculously overused statement and I honestly don't think lots of people know the meaning of it. There's a difference between something being outright dumb (cap hurting hulk, bruce hurting supes etc) and showings that have clear context behind them if your knowledgeable on the story or the characters involved.

World war hulk instantly comes to mind.

Ultimate Hawkeye can beat Batman without the nuke arrow

Japanese characters are absurd 90% of the times, all just end being too powerfull due to powerscaling, without any decent plot or story behind to back up and make those absurd powers feel right, or at least, not just there because reasons. And all are just the same character copied over and over. "hey look, im very fast!"

'PIS' has morphed into a term people use to disregard instances that threaten their argument or opinion. It is used widely now to excuse one characters lack of awareness. If Flash slips on a banana peal, that is a low showing of awareness in that moment.

@justicethorpsylocke: Batman with prep defeating the Justice League is a overrated feat? I mean...it might be taken as PIS...but it's a fact. He did it.

Black Panther cannot take Batman easily. It would be a great fight.

Hulk is stronger than Superman? It depends on his rage level. At his base form is way weaker than Supes.

Why would Namor CRUSH Aquaman?

@drfate: Just FYI, Hulk doesn't have a base

@drfate: Namor can't. Especially with the way he has been for a while. Unless his fans USS outdated classic feats.

Flash slipping on a banana peel is PIS because we have instances of Flash, subconsciously seeing the world frozen without even trying/ having his supers peed kick in after a bullet he's not even aware of , striking his neck/ sprinting across the country without colliding with anything when *asleep*

At a very basic level, " Flash slips over banana peel because lack of awareness" fails at the very first hurdle of how the dude is "aware" enough to sprint through the world, through roads and cities he's never been to, without colliding with a single building, person, moving car, bullets, trains anything

But a stationary banana peel makes the guy who sees the world as frozen when not even trying, "lose his awareness"?

What. An. Argument.

WH is PIS for a variety of reasons, contradicting how characters , not named Hulk, heck even Hulk himself have operated in comics for the past 60 years

Just as one example. Dr Strange getting messed up by his astral form getting thrashed, where previously his astral form has been crushed to a bloody pulp without him being affected in the slightest

That is plot. Induced. Stupidity. To make sure Hulk wins an unwinnable fight to the extent of blatantly contradicting how his magic actually works

@drfate: The only time where batman has genuinely taken them all down with his own inventions was recently in endgame. I admit, that's a good feat, but people seem to think his prep means he can take anyone, and he can't without major PiS or special circumstances. The ways he beat WW (PIS lie lasso) flash (banana peel) and superman (kryptonite gum) should not have worked. And the only suit of batmans that could contend with a stark armor is the hellbat, and he didn't eve build it

Better physicals, better gear, more lethal, equal skill, much much higher durability. Yeah, good fight.....

WWH and WBH are stronger than post crisis superman by a great margin. Probably even stronger than new 52 supes

Namor is stronger IMO, he can fly, and just has better combat feats in general

@thegrayghost: that's where the last part of my post comes in, sure it seems stupid if you have no freaking clue about the characters involved. Which evidently, you don't. Hulk has always had the ability to astral project, and also interact with astral beings. I believe it was either something to do with being abused by his dad or something to do with the location where the bomb went off, can't recall which one.

How does it contradict how hulk has operrated if this was a completely different incarnation that was amped by a bomb on sakaar and mentally traumatised to the point where he attacked his ally's in blind rages? This is what I'm talking about, you've made it abundantly clear that your clueless on hulk, literally everything that happened had reasons behind it. strange was hulks friend, pak made it clear that strange could have killed him but he chose not to. That's not PIS, that's strange not being a huge dick when he was in the wrong.

The only thing that can be considered PIS in the whole story is reed not having better prep, but then again it was extremely short notice and reed isn't the kinda guy who goes around killing his friends.

I swear to god the excuses people come up with in regards to hulk... Of course they didn't kill him, they've fought with each other for years, they wanted a peaceful solution, but of course acting in character is somehow PIS... By your logic the next time superman goes on a rage lets just get j'onn to phase his brain out. Superdoom? PIS because he wasn't BFRed to the negative zone. Wonder womans angry? Turn her into a drooling shell, that'll solve the problem. Martian manhunters in a bad mood? Set him on fire.

That's pretty much how every situation should be solved if we take everything ever said about world war hulk literally. Forget about friendships, forget about in character moves, since hulk had an event dedicated to him lets hate on him.

@thedailybagel: Which part of "Strange's magic didn't work the way it worked before" has anything to do with what you just said'?

I'm not even touching the rest of your argument here, I already know how you debate and how you debate when Hulk is involved

I'm just asking a simple question here

Dr Strange's astral form busting affected him big time in Wwh. it didn't earlier

is that PIS , yes or no?

@thegrayghost: you've evidently never seen me debate as I've never debated you, just like I rarely debate people who don't know when to stop replying. And I couldn't care less if you don't want to touch my arguments, they aren't even arguments as that would imply I'm debating you...

Has strange ever faced anyone who has the ability to interact with astral objects? If so, and he still wasn't affected, then I guess it could be considered PIS. If not, then no, it's not.

For the record could you show me scans of strange being beaten up in the astral form and being fine afterwards?

@captain_batman_ftw: Sorry for the late response.

Superman is a hypocrite, he has on multiple times went above the speed of sound; Clark was running around 2200 mph (something along these lines) troughout Metropolis.

It depends on the situation. Point being is he doesn't just ram into street levellers at bullet speeds because that can kill them.

He did tank the damage as the indicator said: ''An underground stream has been diverted by the shifting rock. It bursts over HIMwith the force of a tsunami--''. How exactly can you say that it was a small tsunami? I showed you scans and evidence of it being a powerful earthquake. I showed you scans of Gotham being broken into pieces.

Because a tsunami is a wave created by an earthquake. The actual wave that hit batman wasn't that big, the earthquake was sure, but the wave is more important.

The same Namor that has striking power enough to punch Iron Man and send him flying away through a small building?

Iron man in his extremis armor is a class 100 who tanks nukes. So yes namor sending him flying and overpowering iron mans armor is a class 100 striking feat.

Standing? Sure, he was still standing, but do you know what happened after that incident? He was barely alive after that ( I don't have the scans right now, but since you have read Civil War yourself, I'm certain that you most likely remember it).

I'm not sure how this is a bad thing....Again Iron man is a class 100 being. Cap shouldn't be able to no sell punches from him, as that would be terrible writing.

I didn't mention anything about Superman. I'm aware that Wonder Woman wasn't fully powered as Bruce himself said that she isn't on her normal power levels. Regardless, it still created a giant crater on the ground and he was still standing (without his armor).

The impact of iron man bull rushing cap from behind through a wall was bigger.

Regardless of who Steph took it from, it doesn't matter. Orm's lightning was very very powerful as it knocked out Wonder Woman and Superman......

I know. The bat family has always had some powerful insulators in their suit. This feat still doesn't translate to blunt force. Even if it did we know batman isn't as durable as wonder or superman so it wouldn't matter.

Doesn't matter: an explosion stil happened.

A very small explosion and moon knight has Carbonadium armor.

That wasn't a very big explosion compared to what Bruce has tanked (without any sings of pain). That's an ok durability feat at best whereas Batman has a similar feat like that; just that the explosion he tanked was bigger. I don't have the scans with me now, but he suvived an RPG missile straight to his own body, and he came out without any harm. His suit was damaged a little, but that was it, nothing more.

Can you give me the issue number?

I know Batman wouldn't send him flying, but he could damage him if he was not holding back.

Flash has contained a gamma bomb explosion which destroyed a mountain IIRC....He did pass out admittedly but that is way above batmans stirking power. Batman isn't hurting Flash Thompson.

Also, I didn't ignore it, I answered to why it happened. Sure, he sent Venom flying, but it was Venom's own body.

It would actually require more force to punch something that is heavier with enough force to cause craters that big. And again cars were sent flying into the air as a result of the punch. Batman can't even dream of coming close to that. And I already posted other feats of Peter destroying a building and punching out people while he is the size of an ant....

I remember seeing a scan where Spiderman wasn't holding back, and he punched Punisher with most of his force and nothing got damaged. I also doubt the same thing would happened if it would have beem someoen like Deathstroke, Daredevil etc...

The only time Peter punched Frank while bloodlusted he sent Frank flying over buildings. That is also something batman cannot come close to accomplishing. Batmans striking power is simply not in the same league as spider-mans.

And honestly I wasn't going to go here but batman punches people all the time and doesn't one shot them. On average he doesn't even punch with the force of a missile. Honestly even using Peters average showings they eclipse batmans highest end showings (unless you start using things like knocking out wonder woman and stuff).

Slade has, but he didn't get as damaged as Cap.

Actually Steve took less damage than Slade. Steve only has a hole in his head where as Slade was flat out missing a portion of his head:

How did he come back if his enhancments weren't as powerful as they were to be able to bring him back?

I don't think your thinking of civil war. IIRC the above scan sounds more what your thinking of where Steve got shot in the head, and his healing factor brought him back to life. In civil war I don't think Steve technically died.

Same wouldn't have happened to Batman; in fact, he has already been shot at his head before, but his armor was able to bounce it of.

Makes sense since batmans armor is bullet proof. Steve doesn't have stabbing resistance.

Slade at least didn't get ass hurt.

Slade died until his healing factor brought him back to life. As I said above Slades head was partially missing, Steve only had a hole in his head.

This actually supports Slade's combat speed of being above Cap's even more. Being able to hang with someone who has speed capable of doing this is very good for Slade. This also supports that Bronze Tiger isn't mostly hyped. He's also one-shotted Chesire, I believe.

Everything that happens in comics is inhuman. Even the act of aim dodging is an inhuman feat. This doesn't impress.

Yes, he actually has when he became serious:

There is no evidence that Slade just got serious in that moment. And deathstroke himself said batman was better than best. He clearly wouldn't have said that if he had stomped batman.

He outran a bullet, but yet has slower speed than Daredevil; seems legitimate to me.

I don't see whats wrong with that. Daredevil isn't slow. And its actually debatable who is faster between the two.

Dodging bullets after they have been fired isn't impressive for street levelers anymore. Basically, it's something street levelers do all the time.

You referenced Cass dodging a bullet after it was fired and tried to argue that put her in spider-mans league. I don't see why this isn't impressive.

This is in the lifting category which won't help that much when Slade is superior in striking power, and if we go to this category,

Steve strikes with his shield. If he can throw that shield with enough force to go through helicopters and tanks he can hit with that kind of force.

then Slade recently (in Deathstroke #2) easily pushed up a huge piece of rock. He also ripped of the door of an airplane while in the air.

I was comparing pre new 52 Slade to 616 Steve. The second feat you mentioned with the air plane door was done in deathstrokes Nth metal armor which amps his stats.

I showed evidence for Slade being faster,

I disagree. I don't think evidence for Slade being significantly faster was shown.

he's waaaay smarter as he has on multiple occasions used his intelligence to fight the Teen Titans and we all know what happened in Identity Crisis.

Steve recently used his tactics to win an intergalactic war that the kree supercomputer said was unwinnable against the builders. Strategically I think Steve matches Slade.

I don't know how you interperated skill as being H2H. Slade is more skilled due to swords, firearm, tactical mind and he is just as good in H2H as Cap is.

Steve has shown some impressive mastery of his shield.

Of course Batman is a tier above her, she can give him a good match in H2H, but he's a tier above.

If that were the case why would she be one shotted.

To expand further on my, "Comic writers do not know physics" idea.

Writers definitely have no idea how absolute zero actually works or even extreme cold for that matter.

I don't think its they don't know, its more of they don't care. Their job is to make compelling stories, not appease Sir Isaac Newton.

Trying to argue for world breaker hulk against anyone that's remotely fast is like trying to spoon feed a baby sometimes...

1) Enhancements are parts of the character but I agree.

2) I totally agree. Sentry curbstomp MMH in all areas.

3) Which one ? Wally or Barry ?

4) I guess he can stomp Superman without equalizing the speed, the difference is thin and Thor is far more durable and has a better striking power and magic abilities. Superman never demonstrated a high attack rate in hand-to-hand.

5) Batman is a better martial artist than Daredevil but DD has better physicals imo.

6) Agreed.

7) Depends who. ^_^

@realitywarper said:

Spider-Man is faster than Goku.

**Superman don't move too fast in close combat so Thor can handle him. Even high tier manga characters have better feats in attack rate and avoiding attacks.
The point is that if he does enough damage on the initial bullrush to stun Thor and follow this with strikes.

Both can win over the other but Superman has a slight speed advantage and Thor the striking power, magic and durability.

**Some people here don't get that The Sentry is above Silver Surfer league

** I agree about Daredevil. Knowing 128 martial arts don't make you better than knowing one and being a complete and better fighter but Iron Fist stated that DD was good but not a hell of a fighter.

** IMO Tony Stark is a low-tier powerhouse but he has good prep feats.

for number four...that's like me saying that spiderman will destroy thor if he lost his axe, strength, and magic. I could also say that superman would destroy thor if lost his strength. speed is part of superman's character. if u equalize speed, that would be like thor fighting a hulk who could fly. it's an entirely different character. that's why I hate equalizing speed. if u equalize speed than take away thor's magic.

I don't think it's necessarily unpopular, but I think Taskmaster gets overrated quite a bit.

@christianrapper: no offense, but you're taking what I said the wrong way. I understand that superman's speed is very important to his character, I don't want to undermine that, I'm just saying "what if thor's speed could contend with it"

Not even close to thor losing all powers, hulk flying, or anything like that

@justicethorpsylocke: Does Thor have many feats, I thought there where only 2 issues?

@dextersinister: Ouch.

what if thor didn't have magic? he would be a different character. if thor's speed was equal to superman, then he would pretty much be unbeatable. u can also say what if superman had thor's magic? then superman would be unbeatable.

@dextersinister: Wut? You mean female thor? I'm not talking about her. I'm talking about the thor with 60 years of marvel history

@christianrapper: Mate, thor had superman-like FTL reaction time feats from the 60s to 80s. He was quite fast, but there was no problem with that unbeatable thing. Look, I get your point. My point is that supermans only truly significant advantage over thor is speed. That's really all I was trying to say. But yes, if superman had thor's magic then he'd be pretty OP

Elektra is severely underrated.

Just about any marksman is underrated.

Quasar would wreck Silver Surfer.

I think Sentry has taken Hulk's position in being able to be very overrated, while being very underrated at the same time. I rarely see anyone who's able to place him in a fair battle.

While he definitely isn't underrated, I think people sell Luther Strode a bit short due to the writer's statements.

I think people sell Daredevil short, too.

Sentry is extremely overrated and is better than MMH in barely any categories.

Sentry would dominate MMH lol