Unpopular Battle opinions

1.Joker is really underestimated in Comic Vine.

2.Joker can beat Green Goblin easily.

3.Joker's mind and plans and him having something under his sleeve most of the times is not even considered in this forum.

4.Harley Quinn is really underestimated.

5.Joker is more crazy than Deadpool.

@lightenupwillya: The same Joker that Bane almost killed right?

Hulk's strength feats are just as impressive as Superman's, Superman only takes a majority against Hulk due to his speed and flight advantages combined with his projectile abilities.

Superman stomps Thor IMO. Thor is compareable or suepieoer in most aspects but his speed isn't anywhere near supermans. As would sentry for the same reasons.

1.) A full powered Juggernaut has the potential to beat Superman, Hulk, Aquaman, Martian Manhunter, practically ANYONE people always make an argument for. The one thing I learned about Juggernaut when I was a kid was that he's UNSTOPPABLE.

2.) People who say a character wins just because he's "faster, stronger" obviously don't understand fights. I mean, fights usually aren't two guys running at eachother full speed trying to claw eachother's brains out. Let's take a popular battle, like Batman vs Deathstroke, for instance. WHY do people think that Slade wins just because he's "Faster and stronger"? Batman's mastered 127 different styles of martial arts/combat arts, potentially blending them so finely that they represent any style. Plus, it doesn't come down to "who throws the better punch", there are a lot of other things that could get the victory for either man, not just speed and strength.

3.) I'm kind of glad Doc Ock replaced Parker as Spiderman. Seriously, am I the only one who wanted to see a fully unleashed Spidey go after all of his villains that he always held back on? I mean, I love Peter Parker, but he was a wuss. The guy constantly lost to people who he could've easily slaughtered because he "didn't want to hurt them". I'm glad to see a Spiderman that's more or less Batman with Spiderman's powers.

4.) People severely underestimate Deadpool on this site. Just because he's comic relief doesn't mean that he isn't one of the greatest H2H fighters in the Marvel U. Another thing, HE CAN'T DIE. Sure, he can be knocked out, but that doesn't mean he won't just get up moments later. I reckon that if he can heal cut off limbs in minutes, he can recover from a concussion pretty damn soon.

@laflux: @guardian_of_gravity:

Or you could do the other right thing and just not read her books. She has the writing skills of a lovesick, high school, creative writing student.

1) Hulk has no strength cap and is VERY difficult to beat

2) Flash isn't overrated

3) Most characters that are "Faster than lightning" are really barely mach speed

4) It seems to me like anime fans are so desperate to prove that their characters are awesome that they use every ounce of PIS they can find...

5) That being said, Anime characters (NOT from Bleach, One Piece or Naruto) should be used more

6) Science should be used in some cases

7) High end Ippo characters can beat most peak humans

8) I didn't like batman before it was cool...

9) There should be more morals on free-for-alls

10) Franklin Richards is the coolest comic character

11) Scenarios can make interesting matchups between characters that are otherwise mismatched (By that I mean something other than a fight to the death)

Star Wars characters on Darth Vader level could possibly beat the Hulk.

Batman cannot beat Iron Man simply because "He's Batman."

Captain Cold can serve as a legit threat against tiers above street level(most still assume he's simply a dude in a parka who rips off Mr. Freeze).

Squirrel Girl sucks

I think the Akatsuki can beat the Espada and Doctor Doom can beat Aizen

Agreed

That reminds me; Sentry beats Thor.

1. Yes
2. Can he beat him? Yes. Easily? No.
3. Yes
4. Yes
5. Yes. But different crazy

Squirrel Girl can be killed by Dogpool

Look I already apologized for that incident!

Can we PLEASE move on!

God...drop one little tablet of PCP into the lemonade and everyones against you...

Well, maybe if you kept better tack of our rave party stash, we wouldn't have this problem!

1. Batman is the most overrated Street leveler in terms of h2h and prep.

2. Prep is not the great equalizer.

Batman and Wolverine suck.

Batman's a rich guy with toys. And his gadgets, while advanced for the real world, might as well be stone tools in the context of Comic Book World. In Comic Book World, Tony Stark's gadgetry lets him fly at supersonic speeds, fire magic "repulsor" rays, project magic "force fields", and bestows godlike strength. Reed Richards throwaway afterthought gadgets defy comprehension. And Batman has batarangs and a grapnel gun. And a car. His car doesn't even fly. Batman doesn't even fly....he's called Batman and he doesn't fly. But he can beat anyone because he's the best at everything in the whole world of all time. He's the best fighter, the best tactician, the best detective, the best escape artist, the best chef, and he can play guitar better than Eddie Van Halen and Jimi Henrix combined. Absolutely hateful character.

Wolverine - same basic thing as Batman. Back in the "All New All Different X-Men" days, Wolverine was a fun character. Let's break him down:

Like all the X-Men of that era, he was sort of a personification of his homeland. Nightcrawler was from Germany, so he was a sort of gargoyle-inspired devil-monster looking guy. Storm was a rain goddess. Banshee screamed like a Banshee. Etc. Etc. Wolverine was a wild animal mountain man.

He was not a Cool Leather Jacket Motorcycle Man. Cool Leather Jacket Motorcycle Man is a different archetype than Close To Nature Wild Animal Instinct Man.

Wolverine's character was cast from the same mold as Conan of Cimmeria. Both characters were all about wild, untamed, natural killer instinct. They're wild animals...when you see Wolverine, the character should (if only in a subliminal sense) make you think of the Canadian Rockies and Mother Nature at her most tooth-and-fang blood-and-claw amoral viciousness. He should be (and was at one time) the Spirit of the Wild in superhero form. That's his thing...that's the "vibe" Wolverine should put out.

This is why all the things that've been tacked onto the character are so lame, and why Wolverine is now just as lame and hateful as Batman. Wolverine's no longer about Wild Animal Instinct, he's become something different.

Like, when did he become a "martial arts expert"? Wolvie fans always bring up how he's a martial arts expert...not just a skilled and scrappy fighter, but an expert in formalized systems of fighting. Is there anyone else who sees that "martial arts expert" totally goes against a character who's supposed to be the personification of killer animal instinct? Martial arts are artificial, and the mental attitude that goes with them is all about modifying and controlling your natural impulses. Making Wolverine a martial arts expert is totally opposed to what the character should be about.

And then there's the stupid healing factor that's gotten so far out of control. The original idea was that since he healed faster than normal, you could have a situation where he keeps fighting despite being a bloody and beaten mess. Real wolverines had a reputation for this...they were said to be so mean they'd fight bears, and chase the bears off through sheer tenacious meanness and viciousness despite being beat up and injured. That's the whole reason behind the healing "factor". But at some point, someone decided that wasn't good enough. Now his healing "factor" is stupid powerful.

Teh Clawz! "Razor sharp" and "unbreakable" does not mean "can cut through anything". It just means "as sharp as a razor" and "can't be broken". Why isn't that good enough? When did his claws become lightsabers? Who made that decision?

Anyway, originally we had:

A tough, scrappy little wild-animal mountain man. Now we have The Ultimate Invincible Immortal Badass Who Can't Be Killed and he wears a leather jacket, wears cowboy boots, rides a motorcycle and seethes like Clint Eastwood. Another truly hateful character.

And one more in the opposite direction...Galactus. Galactus used to be an all-powerful Cosmic Threat, but he's been depowered to the point of being lame:

"Could So-And-So beat Galactus"?

"Probably...if Galactus is hungry."

And he always is.

He's always starved to the point of being so weak as to be defeatable by simple pummeling. Or energy blasting (which amounts to the same thing as pummeling). What happened to "The only thing that can stop Galactus is the Ultimate Nullifier"? The Watcher's pretty smart, right? If Galactus could be trounced by a straight-up pummeling, wouldn't the Watcher have mentioned that? "Galactus is very powerful, except unless he misses a meal. He's a little hungry right now. I suppose you could retrieve the Ultimate Nullifier, but it would probably be easier to go get Wolverine. The armor of Galactus is no match for Wolverines claws, and Galactus's cosmic power is naught against Wolverine's unstoppable Healing Factor".

Thor is a high tier character.

Guts> (Insert Street Leveler Here)

@twogungunnar:

You make some fair points. I might dig around a bit more, Batman has more gadgets besides his standards. Like the suit he used in Superman Unchained #2 that completely evaded Superman's senses.

Yeah. I don't remember any specific issues featuring the Super Bat-Gadgetry, but I've heard people mention stuff like, "He has a bunch of super high tech sci-fi level gadgets. He just doesn't like to use them."

That's another thing...how come he doesn't use them all the time?

If Batman has this stuff, doesn't that contradict the idea that Batman's the Ultimate Ruthless Pragmatist? I've heard Bat-fans go on about how ruthless Batman is and how he'll take advantage of anything. Okaaaaay....if he's such a ruthless pragmatist and no-nonsense guy, why does he use bat-shaped ninja-starts and a grapnel gun when he could use an Iron (Bat) Man suit all the time? If we say, "he prefers not to", then we can't say he's a no-nonsense ruthless pragmatist (which he's never been what with the "no guns" rule).

Oh, one more thing about Batman. And this is the MOST irritating thing about "Batman vs." threads. The argument is a variant of:

"Batman could just get a GL ring. Then he wins"

or

"Batman would call the JL. Batman wins"

or

"If Batman had 100 years of prep, Batman would win"

All of these are examples of the same thing..."If Batman was a totally different character, he'd win!" Well...yeah, I guess. But then we're not really talking about Batman anymore. We're talking about Green Lantern, or the Justice League, or Super Immortal Batman...in any case, it's not a conversation about "Batman vs. Whatever", it's "Something Else vs. Whatever".

@twogungunnar:

I don't think there are that many people who debate in such a way, many are likely trolls.

@twogungunnar: You do know that Wolverine was molded and meant to be an indestructible living weapon? It makes sense that he would have an incredibly strong healing factor, and be an extremely skilled fighter.

@godtriggerhulk: why isn't thor high tier?

What you say was tacked on to the character many, many years after he was created. Which is my whole point. Wolverine started out as one thing, and has become something totally different. He was never originally intended to be "an indestructible living weapon". Just like he was never intended to have a Samurai past, or be a martial arts expert. These things were tacked on later despite what the character was about.

Go back and check out those older issues circa issue 94. Wolverine was a street-level character. He wasn't super-strong, wasn't super-fast, his claws weren't lightsabers, and he healing "factor" wasn't anywhere near what it's become. And that was all fine. He was a genuinely cool character back then.

I really don't understand why they powered him up to such a ludicrous degree. He was a perfectly good character before, and Marvel hasn't done anything comparable with any of their other characters (at least not permanently).

@twogungunnar: Batman doesn't use alot of his tech because he trust his body more than the technolgy, I guess. For example Batman has many suits that he could use to make him a better Batman such as the Batman Beyond suit seen in the current Batman series or even the suit he gave Batwing

@twogungunnar: Dude, go read his first classic mini series written by Chris Claremont in 1982, he was meant to have a samurai past.

Wolverine started out as a Hulk supporting character. :P

@wolverine08:

I have read it. I read it around 1982.

And you're right...in Claremont's story he was meant by Claremont to have a samurai past, because at the time Ninja & Samurai were the cool fad. If Claremont wrote that today, Wolverine would be meant to have a Navy SEAL past and be an expert in Muay Thai and BJJ.

And he was meant to be super-strong, super-fast, indestructible, and have lightsaber-claws in all the stories that show him as having those things. Those stories are stupid. He was a cool, fun character before those stories were written and those things were tacked on. Now that he is all those things, he's a lame, hateful, boring Mary Sue-esque character. Like Batman.

Fiction is almost never wrote with science in mind. If you have to use a bunch of calculations to attempt to prove something you can't with a character's actual on-panel feats, then you're a mathematician, not a debater.

If you want to seriously attempt to use calcs to win debates, go back to those websites, where they're taken seriously.

Moon Knight doesn't lose to everyone

@comicstooge:

Too bad DBZ was written with calculations in mind. :P

Also:

I think All Star Superman fully bloodlusted could beat Silver Age Superman (without ridiculous powers).

How does Joker beat Green Goblin and Deadpool isn't crazy he's just act crazy.

@comicstooge: Prove to me a reaper with it's 0.4 megaton main weapon can take down a star destroyer with it's 4,000,000 megaton main weapons or your argument is moot.

@guardian_of_gravity:

Your Meyer thing goes against literally one of the first things you learn in high school debate.

If you name any charity in the world I can name a list of terrible things its done.

Red Cross has more blood on its hands than the mafia, for example.

@thedarklordpandamonium: The Red Cross doesn't explicitly support *genocide*.

I have no problem with mormonism as a faith, but the organization that represents it is heinous.

Batman is only peak human, not above peak human nor does he have Superpowers. For example folks like to say he can bench press a ton. Even if you do have the scan him being able to do that completely fly's in the face of what his abilities are supposed to be. The World Record for the Bench Press is right around 920 lbs.... granted it's a comic book so i'll spot him the extra 80... that means He should be able to bench 1/2 ton only.

In a straight up fight with someone that does have superhuman strength, speed, agility, and durability Batman should go down the majority of the time. By FAR the majority of the time.

Oh and the Silver Surfer.... he has a big limitation in that when he goes lightspeed he's in hyperspace... think of it as a different dimension. Since he can't go lightspeed and stay in this universe he therefore can't FIGHT FTL. Anyone that can potentially stomps him, and yes I'm thinking Superman. Also all that energy he projects/absorbs travels at the speed off light, so again, anyone who can fight FTL should give Surfer some serious trouble. The guy's not omnipotent.

Asura is only star leveled.

@schillenger420:

I reached my post limit for the day so i thought i'd just edit my original statement to better reflect my thoughts.

The surfer can travel and fight at light speed, FTL travel in marvel is limited to hyperspace (i.e. the general consensus among the writers is that FTL flight isn't possible unless traveling through hyperspace.) It's just a matter of comic book physics, marvel says it's not possible dc says it is.

I'm pretty sure if the surfer was a dc character he'd be right up there with the flash in terms of speed (i.e. if the surfer was in the dc universe he could exceed his speed limiters likewise if superman was in marvel u he would be constrained to light speed before entering hyperspace.)

The problem with speed battles between the two universes lies in establishing who's physics we're willing to accept.

Wolverines apparent skill as a fighter exists purely because of his popularity as a character. Like 99.9% of named heroes he has skill but he was never originally portrayed as one of the best.

Too bad those calculations can't really be used in place of actual feats.

(No disrespect to you or anything, you're a cool dude, I just disagree with you on the whole "calculation" thing).

@comicstooge: A good calc is taking a feat and quantatizing it to show what it means rather than qualatative guestimation of said feat.

A bad calc does not use feats and does not put them under scientific scrutiny.

With good calcs we can determine that one Space Marine Chapter fleet can solo all of mass effect because the firepower disparity is so tremendous that the entire reaper race would be outgunned by one Battle Barge for example.

They have super-thinking. They can think faster than humans can. Therefore, they can indeed do things before others can think.

Anyway, what i hate on Battles is honestly when people underrate Nightwing. Everyone is doing it nowadays. He's actually one of the best fighters in DC. Definitely around the top 5.

Batman is barely in the Top 5 himself and he's on a whole another compared to Nightiwng

So if Surfer was a different character his speed with be up with Flash??? I agree with that. Unfortunately Surfer for whatever reason is supposed to be limited to sublight speeds without going into hyperspace. Superman isn't. Neither are any of the Lanterns or Flash. Limitations are limitations and shouldn't just be explained away by... "If he was a dc character.." Fact is he's not, so he has all the limitations that go with being made by Marvel.

The amount of energy you would need to reach light speed is infinite, in our real universe. Marvel decided to make their fictional universe more like our real one so in MU it is impossible to surpass lightspeed. This means that if Superman entered marvel universe he would also be limited to sublight speed, and so would anyone else who doesn't have infinite amount of energy.

@mortein: When you read what Surfer can do, it specifically states he goes 99.9% the speed of light, and when he hits it... he's in hyperspace.. I'm not too concerned with the 'why' of it.... that's just what actually happens. Superman has no such limitations... again not to concerned with they "why" of it.... that's just how it is. In any universe Surfer should be forced into hyperspace when traveling at light speeds under his own power.... whether he wants to or not. Superman..... not so much.