The heaviest hitters in Monica and Blue Marvel are easily canceled by Thor and Scarlet Witch. In fact those two near solo together, with Hulk, Wasp (Brain attacks), Quicksilver, and Iron Man providing support.
Ultimate Cap, Panther, Miss America, and Hawkeye are mostly non factors.
It's Ms Marvel, Blue Marvel, Monica vs Wasp, Hulk, Thor, Wanda, and Quicksikver in which case Ultimates win handily.
@maxlabp: @wavemotioncannon: @immolation: I see a lot of half butt comments, any reason as to why? Especially when they have no hard counters to BFR or Scarelt Witch in general?
Sounds like another typical "616 rock, go Alpha house!" Then real reasons.
@juiceboks: show me Monica doing a Flash or Goku in combat speed. Travel speed =\= combat speed. You know this.
Add to this Hyperion and Quicksikver have insane combat speed and speed attacks, yet Thor alone counters them fine. Thor has better BFR abilities than Witch.
@juiceboks: show me Monica doing a Flash or Goku in combat speed. Travel speed =\= combat speed. You know this.
Add to this Hyperion and Quicksikver have insane combat speed and speed attacks, yet Thor alone counters them fine. Thor has better BFR abilities than Witch.
Monica is no issue.
Actually Monica actually stated in the recent issue of ultimates that everything around her seems to stand still when she's in her light form (except for Miss America who is apparently in slow motion I guess due to her super speed):
It makes sense the girl who's power is turning into light can react at light speed.....
@sirfizzwhizz: Also about BFR but MIss America is a teleporter who can teleport across the multiverse. So she needs to eliminated for that tactic to work.
@highaccuser: lol not even close when Wrecker had wrecked her befor lol.
@jashro44: @micah: that's all fine and dandy, yet Spectrum is consistently tagged by non hypersonic characters in fights, and never speed blitz anyone. I see empty assumptions base on personal logic, when I reather see feats she can blitz anyone at all like Quicksilver or Thor who are Lightning level speed in actual reaction and attacks.
Too then, I see wanking of abilities than feats to support it.
@highaccuser: lol not even close when Wrecker had wrecked her befor lol.
@jashro44: @micah: that's all fine and dandy, yet Spectrum is consistently tagged by non hypersonic characters in fights, and never speed blitz anyone. I see empty assumptions base on personal logic, when I reather see feats she can blitz anyone at all like Quicksilver or Thor who are Lightning level speed in actual reaction and attacks.
Too then, I see wanking of abilities than feats to support it.
Not accurate. She speedblitzed a horde of vampires at lightspeed. There are some more impressive blitzing feats from her at lightspeed as well (I'll find some more if you want), but she consistently uses this level of speed in combat. It's hard for her not to being made of light and all.
@sirfizzwhizz: I'm not sure how much you've read with Spectrum but in the issues I've read all she ever does is speed blitz....Except that one time she decided to snap her fingers and cause a huge explosion against the blue streak.
And honestly you seem to be mad already and going for the low showings despite the fact I already proved she sees the world at a complete stand still, I'm not going entertain this debate man. She obviously has high end combat reactions. I don't know the context of wrecker beating her but its clearly a low showing, and that's ignoring how inconsistent the wrecking crew.
@micah: good post, and still not a good counter when Thor and Quicksilevr have speed reactions to match what is shown on panel there. Nothing I seen of Monica in multiple fights where she is tagged by people less than super sonic speed support her speed blitzing anyway, and nothing in character has her blitzing at speeds to kill alternate verse versions of people she knows. In fact she is not a killer at all.
I think this proves why I state islts close, but if this is all you have for arguments, it pretty limited.
Meanwhile Ultimate team has reality warping Witch who uses her powers.
Two master BFR characters (Miss America would get killed quick and has limited area of effect for BFR anyway).
Thor in God mode can tank multiple blows from King Thor fine as well block strength attack from Unworthy Thor fine. He can match Anyone on 616 team.
Ultimate Hulk adapts to any fight as per his powers, tanking multiple blows from Savage Hulk fine.
Iron Man (I can post scan later when home) has reacted, and counter a stated 99% lightspeed attacks from a Silver Herald. He can react and absorb/deflect Monica attacks for a time.
Honestly the Ultimates teams feats and power sets trump 616. Monica soloing is laughable, especially in character.
@jashro44: I have older issues from 80s and 90s, so maybe she does it now, I like to see consistent scans of it otherwise she be unbeatable considering 99% marvel characters are less than lightspeed lol.
I'm not seeing the proof on your end. Also, Iron Man suit reacts and counters attacks from 99% Hypersonic, and all Hyperions I know are near light speed which Thor countered his speed blitz's easy every time. Sorry if I feel Monica wanking of speed blitz is not a solid argument :)
@micah: good post, and still not a good counter when Thor and Quicksilevr have speed reactions to match what is shown on panel there.
Thank you. She actually made a fool out of 616 Quicksilver due to her superior speed, who we know possess massively hypersonic speed and reactions. I'd like to think I'm knowledgeable on the Ultimate Universe (it was my favorite reality for awhile), and I can't recall an instance in which Thor and Quicksilver moved so fast time seemed to stop, which is something Monica has done multiple times.
Gallery
Nothing I seen of Monica in multiple fights where she is tagged by people less than super sonic speed support her speed blitzing anyway,
Usually her first tactic is to go for some form of a blitz. It's quite in character for her to do that.
and nothing in character has her blitzing at speeds to kill alternate verse versions of people she knows. In fact she is not a killer at all.
Who said she would be killing them? She has plenty of ways to heavily injure or incap anyone on the Original Ultimates team. For example she could just penetrate Hulk from the outside by turning into her light form then blasting him from the inside with X-Rays. Causing Permanent Cell and Brain damage. She's actually done these before, she penetrated Fing Fang Foom from the outside (looking for the scan), but here's the X-Ray one.
I think this proves why I state islts close, but if this is all you have for arguments, it pretty limited.
Could you explain how what I've presented is limited? I've shown she can blitz anyone on Team 2, and she's got the powers and feats to bring down the biggest guns on both teams. What am I missing?
@sirfizzwhizz: How does she not solo? Thor is the only one who can hurt her with BFR but he can't react and hurting Zeus (even only slightly) should be enough to take him down. Even if she doesn't solo it's still a stomp for 616 since Thor is the only one who can stand up to Blue Marvel.
You claim a fan but don't remeber when time stand still for the whole Quicksilver vs Hurricane fight, with Hawkeye never moving at all from his falling? You claim to be a fan then?! ;)
How can she blitz Thor, or Iron Man who counter lightspeed to near lightspeed attacks already? Arguably, she might fail blitzing Quicksilver who runs so fast that a Mach 10 speedster was torn apart on the molecule level by speed alone lol.
She is taking out Hulk with Radiation? That is what X-Rays are. Do you understand that Hulk adapts to any situation that stresses his body? Even Pychic attacks fail on Hulk when he is stressed about it.
I'm not buying what your selling, sorry. The feats of the Ultimate team state otherwise. Though the battle is closer thanks to Monica and her alone, but there is still counters, and this is base on the argument of the unlikely event she will open up with a speed blitz.
@highaccuser: does Zeus have feats to say he can tank what Thor dishes out fine? No. He is a near featless Sky Ftaher who is by feats less than what 616 Thor has done lol. Really mate?
Blue Marvel has no counter to reality warping anymore than Hyperion did against her, nor cannot stop being hex into a cat lol. Also by feats, Hulk and IM should handle him fine for a time considering both no sell megaton Nukes casually, or the fact Savage Hulk failed to beat down with clear results Ultimate Hulk. Thanks to Wanda, Blue Marvel is a non factor.
@highaccuser: does Zeus have feats to say he can tank what Thor dishes out fine? No. He is a near featless Sky Ftaher who is by feats less than what 616 Thor has done lol. Really mate?
Blue Marvel has no counter to reality warping anymore than Hyperion did against her, nor cannot stop being hex into a cat lol. Also by feats, Hulk and IM should handle him fone for a time considering both no sell megaton Nukes casually. Or the fact Savage Hulk failed to beat down with clear results Ultimate Hulk. Thanks to Wanda, Boue Marvel is a non factor.
He stomped Hulk...
Savage Hulk had his power disrupted by Ultimate Hulk's presence. By feats he's only on par with Gray Hulk. No selling nukes doesn't help their blunt force durability and nukes can't send people into orbit (Blue Marvel can). They and Wanda also get blitzed.
You claim a fan but don't remeber when time stand still for the whole Auicksilver bs Hurricane fight, with Hawkeye never moving at all from his falling? You claim to be a fan then?! ;)
Oh your right. That was a good fight btw, impressive but Monica still has better speed feats. Remember her combat speed speed has been shown on multiple occasions to equal her travel speed. In terms of the latter she outsped Hermes (Messenger God) travel speed then blitzed him overpowering his combat speed.
How can she blitz Thor, or Iron Man who counter lightspeed to near lightspeed attacks?
What were the feats for those again?
Arguably she might fail blitzing Quicksilver who runs so fast that a Mach 10 speedster was torn apart on the molecule level by speed alone lol.
Quicksilver still had to push himself to reach those speeds, and consistently he remains at massively hypersonic speeds while not reaching lightspeed. While Monica attacks instantly at lightspeed in literally all of her appearances. He'd have to start at that level of speed for that one high-end feat in order for him not to get blitzed.
She is taking out Hulk with Radiation? That is what X-Rays are...
By frying his brain yes. Is his brain resistant to those attacks? If she fries his brain, he's down for the count even if he will heal later.
I'm not buying what your selling, sorry. The feats of the Ultimate team state otherwise. Though the battle is closer thanks to Monica and her alone, but there is still counters, and this is base on the argument of the unlikely event she will open up with a speed blitz.
Her and Blue Marvel make almost an OP Team by themselves. There powers work together marvelously.
@jashro44: I have older issues from 80s and 90s, so maybe she does it now, I like to see consistent scans of it otherwise she be unbeatable considering 99% marvel characters are less than lightspeed lol.
I'm not seeing the proof on your end. Also, Iron Man suit reacts and counters attacks from 99% lightspeed, and all Hyperions I know are near light speed which Thor countered his speed blitz's easy every time. Sorry if I feel Monica wanking of speed blitz is not a solid argument :)
Alright since you seem to be rational now....
Gallery
Various examples of her blitzing. Clearly it is in character.
IIRC there is no evidence the silver searcher was still moving at 99% the speed of light when it reached earths atmosphere. It was moving 99% the speed of light when it was heading towards earth, but we don't know if it slowed down when it started to reach earth. In fact the silver searcher came to a stop as iron man started putting his force field around it. In fact Tony even admitted he can't stop something moving that fast on his own:
good post, and still not a good counter when Thor and Quicksilevr have speed reactions to match what is shown on panel there. Nothing I seen of Monica in multiple fights where she is tagged by people less than super sonic speed support her speed blitzing anyway, and nothing in character has her blitzing at speeds to kill alternate verse versions of people she knows. In fact she is not a killer at all.
So Monica is slow because she gets tagged by other people but thor is fast because he tags quicksilver? Ultimate quicksilvers been tagged by ultimate wolverine, cyclops, and ultimate thor. It doesn't make him slow because everyone gets tagged in comics at some point, same applies to Monica. Your right about her not being a killer but she doesn't need to kill to perform a blitz.
Your argument is Silver Herald was moving slower? Can I see that proof? Mate, this is like me saying to you, "maybe Monica was moving slower than light in her scans when attacking." It states 99% speed of light, and the attack was launched from the asteroid belt. Nothing states it slowed down, nor why he should as Herald was being use as a bullet to destroy the nuke proof triskelion. As for the point of his wording Stopping, Tony states he cannot stop a ball of mass moving at 99% lightspeed, and this. That's physics of force which is why Cap Marvel needed to add his energy beam to deflect the attack. This is not reaction time Jash. IM still reacted and projected a energy field on a object at stated 99% Lightspeed.
Fair points, but still Quicksilver is not lightspeed lol at all. There is no excuse to move at lightspeed, see the world still, and always get tagged by sonic or less speed beings. Something is off there. Not that it matters as Thor and Iron Man are hard counters to this.
@highaccuser:
wow, nuke force wave is not the same as blunt damage when the explosive force is the same, kinetic energy, not to mention shrapnel of any kind caught in it. But ok. Also if you to use the force of a megaton nuke into a punch it would not send 200 pounds into orbit? I cannot do my memes on IPhone, but I would insert on here now lol. Not that it matters as Iron Man force fields and Witches block blows of fist with higher yeield than any quantifiable punch feat from Blue Marvel anyway :/
Also proof of that claim Savage Hulk powers were weaken? I read the issues, his powers were affected to make him savage out, nothing about being weaker. Nice try mate.
@sirfizzwhizz: why couldn't ms america bfr the team?. For the record I know very little of the character and don't know if that would even be in character for her but it at least makes her useful in the fight
I think Ultimate Quicksilver is safe from speed. Purses considering his performance against Thor, Blur/Hyperion. I do feel Monica will fail to blitz IM or Thor altogether.
They can be seen if you google Ultimates Tribute Thread. On iPhone right now. Post when I get home.
Which is why I say arguable. If given the chance, quicksilver can be up to speed.
Would she fry his brain when that may kill him? Also Hulk has adapted to the heat,pressure, and radiation of Venus instantly, not sure Monica will apply enough "fry" in the time space for Hulk to adapt.
I feel he same about Thor and Wanda who combine took down world level reality warping Loki and his army of Agardian foes easy. The real key here is the fact Hulk, Wasp, IM, and Quicksilver make for useful support unlike Miss Marvel. Miss America and BP like Hawkeye and Cap are non factors and collateral.
wow, nuke force wave is not the same as blunt damage when the explosive force is the same, kinetic energy, not to mention shrapnel of any kind caught in it. But ok. Also if you to use the force of a megaton nuke into a punch it would not send 200 pounds into orbit? I cannot do my memes on IPhone, but I would insert on here now lol. Not that it matters as Iron Man force fields and Witches block blows of fist with higher yeield than any quantifiable punch feat from Blue Marvel anyway :/
With a nuke you only have to tank a portion of the attack that's as large as your body. And I'm pretty sure that no, nukes can't achieve the force to send something flying at escape velocity.
Also proof of that claim Savage Hulk powers were weaken? I read the issues, his powers were affected to make him savage out, nothing about being weaker. Nice try mate.
His powers were made different and we don't know how strong he'd be under those conditions. It's still hardly an admissible feat and Ultimate Hulk's feats in general are pathetic compared to 616 Hulk.
I think Ultimate Quicksilver is safe from speed. Purses considering his performance against Thor, Blur/Hyperion. I do feel Monica will fail to blitz IM or Thor altogether.
I don't think she will fail to blitz anyone on the team. I can't find lightspeed reaction feats for Ult.Thor, and the one your pushing for IM has been called into scrutiny so now I'm rethinking that one. Quicksilver while being fast only has one really good lightspeed feat, and that was only when he was pushing himself to his max.
They can be seen if you google Ultimates Tribute Thread. On iPhone right now. Post when I get home.
K.
Which is why I say arguable. If given the chance, quicksilver can be up to speed.
But he doesn't have the feats to prove he can get that chance. Quicksilvers best consistent feats prove Massively Hypersonic speed. Which even his mainstream version has replicated several of his feats, yet Monica outmaneuvered and blitzed him just fine. All of this is assuming he gets a chance to fight back, Monica could just turn into a Gamma Ray and penetrate him from the outside. And while Monica certainly isn't a killer don't think she won't employ more lethal methods in combat, especially against a Hulk. After-all she showed Fin Fang Foom no mercy.
Would she fry his brain when that may kill him? Also Hulk has adapted to the heat,pressure, and radiation of Venus instantly, not sure Monica will apply enough "fry" in the time space for Hulk to adapt.
He did, and that was certainly a great feat but later in the same comic Iron Man incapacitated him by attacking his brain. He then goes onto state that Hulk has as we all know been beaten by attacks that specifically target his brain, afterall that's how Wasp took him down the first time. Consistently Brain Attacks have proven to be the one thing that is almost certain to defeat the Hulk even if it's only for a few minutes.
I feel he same about Thor and Wanda who combine took down world level reality warping Loki and his army of Ultimate knocks offs easy. The real key here is the fact Hulk, Wasp, IM, and Quicksilver make for useful support unlike Miss Marvel. Miss America and BP like Hawkeye and Cap are non factors and collateral.
Captain Marvel makes perfect support. Remember the whole BM perfectly works together with Spectrum? Well the same also extends to Carol. Nothing is stopping BM or Spectrum from amping her to Binary and thus putting her over a majority of the Ultimates roster, in fact BM enhanced Spectrum's power output to the point where she was able to take down a shadow of Shuma Gorath. Black Panther while arguable the weakest link, still boast incredible tech enough to at least hold off anyone on Team 2 minus Wanda. BM, Spectrum, and Carol make a perfect trinity in battle. Hulk, Wasp, IM and Quicksilver don't have as much cohesion nor do their powers complement each other and even boost the abilities of their teammates. All things you'll find in the New Ultimates along with such boosting tactics they aren't afraid to employ.
Your argument is Silver Herald was moving slower? Can I see that proof? Mate, this is like me saying to you, "maybe Monica was moving slower than light in her scans when attacking." It states 99% speed of light, and the attack was launched from the asteroid belt. Nothing states it slowed down, nor why he should as Herald was being use as a bullet to destroy the nuke proof triskelion. As for the point of his wording Stopping, Tony states he cannot stop a ball of mass moving at 99% lightspeed, and this. That's physics of force which is why Cap Marvel needed to add his energy beam to deflect the attack. This is not reaction time Jash. IM still reacted and projected a energy field on a object at stated 99% Lightspeed.
Because moving light speed on earth isn't the same thing as moving light speed in space (or in this case 99% the speed of light). Plus Mar-vell even said "If its still moving to fast to intercept..." which would imply its possible it could have slowed down as well when it reached earth:
Monica gets a pass because he whole power set is turning into light.
Fair points, but still Quicksilver is not lightspeed lol at all. There is no excuse to move at lightspeed, see the world still, and always get tagged by sonic or less speed beings. Something is off there. Not that it matters as Thor and Iron Man are hard counters to this.
Its really just plot. Flash has some of the most insane speed feats in comics but he still gets tagged from time to time. Writers have been known to write characters down when they need to. As I said that's what happened to ultimate quicksilver in the instances I posted, its not that quicksilver is slow its that he didn't use his speed the way he should because plot. Monica having a few instances where she doesn't use her speed shouldn't discount her impressive feats.
stop reaching my friend. He states if it's too fast, which is easily saying to me reading it as Cap Marvel was unsure if IM could stop it it at all. If it was too fast to react to, then why in the same sentence MRvel states get a force field around? Notice that?! All we know is the speed stated, 99% and that's the only hard fact mate. Can't take it away with real work logic or oponion without coming off hard as playing devils advocate mate ;)
Fair enough on the second point.
@micah:
Thor has reacted fine to two seperate blitzes by Hyperion, so fast that Even IM could not keep up or register, and Thor nailed him both times as the to use of said blitz. The IM feat is not under scrutiny, but rather double standards by Jash playing devils advocate.
There is nothing hypersonic about what QS feat done. He has travel to Europe and back with over 500 pounds of steel faster than human eyes can see. He has travel so fast that a casual Mach 10 speedsters came apart at molecules. These are speeds faster than lighting, and approaching realativstic speeds. Also I still never seen Monica employ lethal measures on anyone alive much less on a team she knows.
Like Wasp, Iron Man used a attack that may or May not kill Hulk. It was not "frying" which is a process Monica will have to wait to see works but rather a all out energy attack. Not the same considering Monica unlike Ultimate Tony has morals to killing.
God point about Binary, now can I see the team doing this? Well it is unfair since we do not know what they do yet, so let's leave that to possible, still the time to Binary Ms Marvel would be time enough for Wanda to deposed all of them. Like how Wanda has before.
BP is a no. Factor as is Miss America. After all Cap has Layed low Warmachine, Juggernaut, and temp drop Hulk, he is still a non factor to the stronger characters. Also how does the Ultimates have less cohesion when they worked together many times fine, backing the other? Their powers may not enhance the rest, but they have used their versatility abilities together for effect.
@106me:
I agree, however I feel IM cannot move at those speeds, just his armor can and energy abilities react at those speeds, helps me sleep at night :)
@newecho:
Thor and Scarlet Witch are better at BFR, that's why.
however I feel IM cannot move at those speeds, just his armor can and energy abilities react at those speeds
Yes! This makes soooo much more sense. Although, that in and of itself is still impressive, but I can't see Ultimate IM fighting casually at near-lightspeed.
@sirfizzwhizz: I disagree on the first paragraph and I stand by what I said. Based on Mar-vell's dialogue its possible the silver searcher slowed down. I also would argue black panther beats ultimate cap for the record :p
@jashro44: I'm not sure how he slowed down if Marvel asked he could intercept it? Tony said no, but he could force field it. Clearly talking about its force and not speed. How can he force field it if he cannot react to it?
Cap IMO would have a harder time with Vibranium Panther, without that Cap would likely win a random fight.
Cap IMO would have a harder time with Vibranium Panther, without that Cap would likely win a random fight.
I'd still say black panthers tech is to much. Cap doesn't have a counter for Black Panther cloaking, and black panthers tech is pretty damaging even to cap.
Cap IMO would have a harder time with Vibranium Panther, without that Cap would likely win a random fight.
I'd still say black panthers tech is to much. Cap doesn't have a counter for Black Panther cloaking, and black panthers tech is pretty damaging even to cap.
BP cloaking is as much a factor as Miles own stealth that is undersold in battle threads, and leave it at that :)
Cap IMO would have a harder time with Vibranium Panther, without that Cap would likely win a random fight.
I'd still say black panthers tech is to much. Cap doesn't have a counter for Black Panther cloaking, and black panthers tech is pretty damaging even to cap.
BP cloaking is as much a factor as Miles own stealth that is undersold in battle threads, and leave it at that :)
Black Panther has better stealth feats than Miles.
Cap IMO would have a harder time with Vibranium Panther, without that Cap would likely win a random fight.
I'd still say black panthers tech is to much. Cap doesn't have a counter for Black Panther cloaking, and black panthers tech is pretty damaging even to cap.
BP cloaking is as much a factor as Miles own stealth that is undersold in battle threads, and leave it at that :)
Black Panther has better stealth feats than Miles.
Not from where I sit. Stealth feats in skill, sure, stealth attacks while cloaked, no. Miles has many successful stealth attacks with his cloak. Anyway, a debate for another day.
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