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#1 Edited by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

vs

Ultimate X-Men are before Ultimatum.

Astonishing around the end of their series.

Ultimate Jean is limited to her limited control of Phoenix Force (not the Phoenix in control).

No BFR.

Battle in the X Mansion

Who wins?

#2 Posted by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow no one?

#3 Posted by charlieboy (7157 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: Are we talking astonishing as in Wolverine, Gambit, Iceman, Karma, Warbird, Northstar, and Cecilla Reyes?

#4 Posted by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@charlieboy: No. I meant as pictured above.

Colossus, Cyke, Beast, Shadow Cat, Emma, and Wolverine.

vs

Colossus, Cyke, Beast, Storm, Jean, and Wolverine.

#5 Posted by RisingBean (6722 posts) - - Show Bio

Well seeing as how Ult Colossus is not super humanly strong without outside aid, and how the Astonishing crew is much older, and well oiled, and how Adamantium is not as tough in the Ultimate U, my money is on Astonishing.

#6 Posted by Bo88gdan (5382 posts) - - Show Bio

Astonishing X-Men FTW

#7 Posted by protectyournose (912 posts) - - Show Bio

@Bo88gdan said:

Astonishing X-Men FTW

#8 Edited by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@RisingBean: Colossus for all intents and purpose is still on Banshee before Ultimatum. It lasts for weeks and in some cases Months. He still super strong. Still superior Strength Feat wise to 616 Colossus.

- Beating Mags Magnetics

- Holding a Jet down.

- Surviving a Nuke Arrow

- Stopping Mutli Thousands tons of Train and momentum

- Beat Down a Charging 100+ Tonner Iron Man

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Also added is Jean Greys feats vs Emmas. I think Jean without going Full Phoenix Trumps Emmas TP. Added is Jeans massive TK.

We have Jean doing amazing feats.

- Durable to take a major hit from Enrage Colossus

- Able to communicate a world distance without Cerebro.

- Ripping Nucklear Dorrs in half easily.

- Ripping Fissure in the Earth.

- TP assaulting the mind.

- Jean TP links mutiple X-Men, reads the minds of mutiple cleaning staff, and enhance her teamates (Remove fear, increase adrenalin, ect) at the Same Time!

Jean is not outclass here.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

616 Beast probaly defeats Ult. Beast but not easy.

- Beast Doges Ultimate Hawkeye >>>> 616 Hawkeye.

- Beast Strength and Agility vs Wolverine Clones.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ultimate Wolverine Adamantium is not Connected at the joints and to suggest its weaker is ignorant. Hulk and Colossus have ripped Joint areas where Adanmtium would not be connected and could do same to 616 Wolverine period.

- Wolverine Adamntium is the ONLY SUBSTANCE STRONG ENOUGH to cut thru Colossus Steel Body

- Wolverine takes heat that melts metal.

- Wolverine shot up my mutiple Shield Agents and wins.

- Wolverine is Psychis Proof. No attack of Emma will stop him.

- Adamantium strong enough to rip thru Iron Mans armour with ease.

- Fast enough to react and tag Ultimate Quicksilver >>>> 616 Quicksilver.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

616 Cyke trumps overall power showings to Ult. Cyke. Ult. Cyke is still a tatical genius and can accuratly kill targets from a distance.

- Cyke kills Magneto

- Cyke blows away his parent

- Cyke one shots Wolvie

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Finnaly Storm with her power Lightning, Sleet, Wind, and Airborn Attacks vs Shadow Cat.... its whatever there.

- Storm Wind pins the Uber Powerful Colossus

- Her Mind defeats a TP attack of the powerful Shadow King

- She pins hundreds of Shield Agents with her Lightning

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

@protectyournose: @Bo88gdan: Its cool to have say one shot answeres but any reasons? I can see Shadow Cat being a Wild Card but she aint killing everyone since I never said blood lusted nor be able to reach Jean or Storm who fly. So whats up?

#9 Posted by cattlebattle (14392 posts) - - Show Bio

Ult. X-Men should have this^^ Cadence provided all the evidence needed

#10 Posted by protectyournose (912 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: The only reason, I dont wanna give reasons why is because you obviously disagree with my post, so I know where this is headed too.

#11 Posted by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@protectyournose: I have conceededto many valid Debates.

I really like to know some of Emmas best feats vs Jeans here.

Honestly I see Ult. Colossus and Ult. Jean being the bigest factors. I have no doubt 616 Cyke, Beast beat their counterparts while Wolvie stalemates.

I dont know alot about Shadow Cat so.....

#12 Posted by jashro44 (30513 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2:The only thing I'm going to reply is the part about hulk and colossus ripping wolverines limbs off. 616 wolverine does have adamantium bonded at the joints. As to who wins I don't know (unless 616 colossus still has his juggernaut powers?)

#13 Posted by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@CadenceV2:The only thing I'm going to reply is the part about hulk and colossus ripping wolverines limbs off. 616 wolverine does have adamantium bonded at the joints. As to who wins I don't know (unless 616 colossus still has his juggernaut powers?)

That scan is pure Iligical has his Joints and Flesh would tear. adamantium Bones plays no part in that.

again I can show Spidey KOing firelord a Herald of Galactus. Is it logical? No. Does that mean Spidey can KO WWH, Thor, Ect? No.

Also this is Astonishing X-Men where Jugss had no buissnes with Juggs powers yet.

#14 Posted by jashro44 (30513 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: Not really. His joints have adamantium in them. Spider-man vs firelord is illogical based off of firelords.

#15 Posted by charlieboy (7157 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: okay sorry the astonishing pic didn't load when i looked at it the first time. I am not sure if any of the ultmate team can hurt Kitty. She has tp resistance when she is phased and none of the physical powers are going to hurt her.

#16 Posted by charlieboy (7157 posts) - - Show Bio

Emma is more skilled than this version of Jean and that is going to be a lot of difference. Rachel is way more powerful and Emma beat her.

#17 Posted by RisingBean (6722 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: I'll get my whole commentary to you in an edit later. Right now I will address the fact that Ultimate Adamantium is weaker.

Captain America had his Shield one-shotted in one of the Ultimates titles by Thor. I was kind of irked by the development myself.

#18 Posted by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@RisingBean: I do belive the Shield design by Pym was never stated to be Adamantium or Vibranium. Simply a undentified metal shield. A reference if ya can cause I like to know what its made of.

@jashro44 said:

@CadenceV2: Not really. His joints have adamantium in them. Spider-man vs firelord is illogical based off of firelords.

So if my Joints are Adamantium and Conected... yet still have movement in my arm even tho its a straight piece of Steel?

Thats illogical.

@charlieboy said:

@CadenceV2: okay sorry the astonishing pic didn't load when i looked at it the first time. I am not sure if any of the ultmate team can hurt Kitty. She has tp resistance when she is phased and none of the physical powers are going to hurt her.

I think TP can hurt her and Kitty has no way to beat Strom or jean Airborn.

@charlieboy said:

Emma is more skilled than this version of Jean and that is going to be a lot of difference. Rachel is way more powerful and Emma beat her.

This interest me. What feats do Emma have that surpasses Jeans TP?

Jean has bypass all wolverines Weapon X TP Immunity. She is the only TP to do this. Jean also TP with Kurt without Cerebro at all across the whole planet where Emma need Cerebro for the same effect.

Those 2 feats speak volumes of Jeans TP. Unless Emma has TP across the whole planet?

#19 Posted by jashro44 (30513 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: Your over thinking it. I don't think its that much of stretch to believe weapon x facility took that into account. If we are going by that logic then wolverine shouldn't even be able to heal in the first place. Also thats not the first time someone tried to rip wolverines limbs off in 616....

#20 Posted by protectyournose (912 posts) - - Show Bio

@protectyournose said:

@Bo88gdan said:

Astonishing X-Men FTW

#21 Posted by charlieboy (7157 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: Kitty has resisted the Shadow King (616) while phased. He couldn't mind control her. The Professor and Rachel have sad she is almost impossible to read. Kitty can walk on air by the way. So flyers aren't totally out of the realm of possibility. But I don't think she solo's or anything. I am just saying that they can't really hurt her. As for Emma she beat Rachel who is an omega level mutant and by Emma's own admission way more powerful. She also beat Professor X in one encounter.

#22 Posted by Floopay (9292 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2:

I give this one to the X-Men.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#23 Posted by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@CadenceV2: Your over thinking it. I don't think its that much of stretch to believe weapon x facility took that into account. If we are going by that logic then wolverine shouldn't even be able to heal in the first place. Also thats not the first time someone tried to rip wolverines limbs off in 616....

Huh. Alright. Ill live with it. I know Ultimate Hulk and Ultimate Colossus did not break Ultimate Wolvie as later in ULT. X-Men Deathstrike explains Adamantium doesnt cover wolvies entire body. Joints, ect...

So still no proof Adamantium in Ult. Verse is weaker than 616.

#24 Edited by God_Spawn (39651 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: 616 still has his Juggernaut powers but this is Whedon era meaning he did not have his jugg amp at the time.

@CadenceV2:

Beating Mags Magnetics
- Holding a Jet down.
- Surviving a Nuke Arrow
- Stopping Mutli Thousands tons of Train and momentum
- Beat Down a Charging 100+ Tonner Iron Man

And 616 Colossus has caught a falling entire space ship, traded blows with Gladiator and Juggernaut when he was in his weaker years and he has only gotten stronger since then. Ultimate Magneto is weaker than his 616 counterpart so it really isn't comparable. 616 Colossus is durable enough to withstand blows from Rulk, WWH, Juggernaut, Gladiator, blasts from Cyclops, getting shot up in a fastball special by 616 Magneto to take down an entire helicarrier which also exploded. Also, he was only scored by 616 Wolverine slashing him ( there is proof that Wolverine could possibly cut him but it will take some effort on his part) and 616 adamantium is stronger than Ultimate. He has also stayed conscious from a blast of a Dreaming Celestial probe that sent him across San Francisco and gouged a massive hole in his chest. Thing has survived a nuke and considering him and Colossus have a comparable durability level, there is no reason he can't do the same. 616 Colossus I believe is more durable than his ultimate counterpart and if he is weaker it isn't by a huge margin where his durability can't make up for it.

We have Jean doing amazing feats.
- Durable to take a major hit from Enrage Colossus
- Able to communicate a world distance without Cerebro.
- Ripping Nucklear Dorrs in half easily.
- Ripping Fissure in the Earth.
- TP assaulting the mind.
- Jean TP links mutiple X-Men, reads the minds of mutiple cleaning staff, and enhance her teamates (Remove fear, increase adrenalin, ect) at the Same Time!

Ultimate Jean is less skilled which is a huge factor. Emma defeated Rachel Grey (whom is more powerful than Emma) by using her skill.

As far as Emma's feats go

-she has sent messages to all the remaining mutants on the planet.

-Stalemate Exodus who is one of the top telepaths on 616 Earth.

-Held back Xavier's telepathy before.

-Telepathically fought with Sinister from across the country.

-Mindwipe entire towns with ease.

-Gotten past level 9 psi shields from Xavier.

-When she died they said there was a psychic backlash felt that was said to be in 616 Jean's class of power.

-Psychic surgery against a Fury.

-Undo Hive Mind Sinister's telepathy while having an arm missing and bleeding out with only Namor holding her stub closed.

Emma's diamond form has withstood blasts from the Dreaming Celestial, withstood Genosha collapsing, hits from WWH, Cyclops' blasts so she won't be KO'd by anyone here in that form.

She has power here and with her skill, what happened with Rachel (who was vastly more powerful) and with Exodus could happen with Ult Jean. I will admit Ult Jean could possibly be stronger.

And Emma has other options which I will state later against other characters.

Ultimate Wolverine Adamantium is not Connected at the joints and to suggest its weaker is ignorant. Hulk and Colossus have ripped Joint areas where Adanmtium would not be connected and could do same to 616 Wolverine period.

616 is immune to having his joints ripped off as far as we know. Dracula (who stopped Colossus' punch with a single hand) Ba'al (70-80 tonner) and Hulk were all unable to even dislocate a joint. You can call it illogical but it is consistent and is canon with the character while for Ultimate does not have that luxury.

- Wolverine Adamntium is the ONLY SUBSTANCE STRONG ENOUGH to cut thru Colossus Steel Body
- Wolverine takes heat that melts metal.
- Wolverine shot up my mutiple Shield Agents and wins.
- Wolverine is Psychis Proof. No attack of Emma will stop him.
- Adamantium strong enough to rip thru Iron Mans armour with ease.
- Fast enough to react and tag Ultimate Quicksilver >>>> 616 Quicksilver.

- 616 Wolverine has cut characters like Thanos, Hulk, Thor, Namor,

-Wolverine has survived jet crashes that caused parts of his body to melt (not the ady) and remain conscious and things that could melt metals.

-Wolverine soaks bullets on a regular basis.

- Where does it say he is completely immune? It says he could shield his thoughts but Ultimate Xavier isn't stronger than 616 so if he is shielding from himself from an inferior version why is he immune? I know Ultimate adamantium grants high resistance but not immunity. 616 Wolverine has level 9 psi shields implanted by Xavier and has his own natural willpower which makes him incredibly difficult to control and Emma bypassed them (being a level 10 psi and Xavier is stronger than her but he only implemented a high level of shields for him). So there is definitely the possibility that Emma could bypass Ultimate's telepathic resistance unless you can present total immunity.

-616 has done to the same to regular Iron Man who is superior to ultimate once again. Not to mention said characters earlier like Thanos, WWH, Thor etc.

- Ultimate Wolverine looked like he just ran a far enough distance and popped his claws. 616 Wolverine has tagged regular Quicksilver and Speedball and Speed Demon IIRC (not sure). He may be slower but he is still fast enough combined with his superior durability, superior metal and fighting skill he would win.

616 Cyke trumps overall power showings to Ult. Cyke. Ult. Cyke is still a tatical genius and can accuratly kill targets from a distance.
- Cyke kills Magneto
- Cyke blows away his parent
- Cyke one shots Wolvie

I agree that regular Cyke wins and is more powerful but he is still more accurate and a better tactician. So whether Ult Cyke is talented himself doesn't give him the edge in that category which is a factor.

616 Cyclops has crippled Xarus' massive vampire army by Trojan horsing Wolverine without his knowledge (used nanites to turn off his hf) and let Wolverine become infected. And in doing so he possibly bluffed saying to Dracula that he had X-Club put a precautionary measure in him while they resurrected him. It wasn't clear if he did but Dracula didn't take attack and thus created peace with him. He planned the mass escape of every mutant in Norman Osborn's prison while turning Magneto's old base into Utopia and get all the mutants onto that island in 10 minutes while also keeping his public image clean and make Osborn look like the bad guy. He also created 42+ plans in a single battle to try against Kuurth (amped Juggernaut). He stood up to Celestials saying he will protect Earth and the Dreaming Celestial which saved the planet. And despite the whole mess that AvX was, Cyclops' plan came true in the end by using Hope as the Phoenix to repower all the mutants.

His blasts when he was younger have ripped through mountains, destroying massive icebergs instantly that would have sunk a ship carrying hundreds of passengers. He has ripped through buildings, ripped the skin of WWH with a wide blast with visor on (making the blast weaker) and even Wolverine said WWH's skin was tough to cut (he was still able to cut him).

616 Cyclops' blasts have been stated to move at light speed (not himself which allows characters to aim dodge or perhaps he can control the speed of his blasts like his powers). Despite him not moving fast he has been able to tag Quicksilver and Northstar (who is faster than 616) and I know Ultimate shot Ult QS in the face but regular has feats similar to attacking super fast opponents.

616 Beast probaly defeats Ult. Beast but not easy.
- Beast Doges Ultimate Hawkeye >>>> 616 Hawkeye.
- Beast Strength and Agility vs Wolverine Clones.

Whedon Beast definitely wins. Regular Beast is typically beaten up by very skilled characters but this one was able to hold his own against 616 Wolverine and Emma has shown to make him feral which can make him even more dangerous since she has done it before. And defeating inferior clones doesn't do him justice against how Whedon Beast did against the real and superior version.

- Storm Wind pins the Uber Powerful Colossus
- Her Mind defeats a TP attack of the powerful Shadow King
- She pins hundreds of Shield Agents with her Lightning

She can't get Kitty anyway with her intangibility.

Astonishing should win this. They are better prepared as a team, better trained and most of the characters here are superior or hold advantages where it counts. Emma Frost has bypassed telepathic resistance before with psi bolts making Storm liable to be affected as well as others, her diamond form is enough to protect her from everything but Jean's telepathy and she can beat Jean by outskilling her like Emma has done to stronger telepaths than herself. 616 Cyclops is the superior tactician here and knows how to play the team properly in using their strengths. And since they are facing similar versions, Cyclops can use Emma us a commlink to the others after Jean goes down or where Emma can resist enough of Jean and send messages to strategize against them. Ult Cyke can do something similar but he is inferior in that aspect which is a detrimental advantage. Kitty could literally phase herself and catch others off guard by dragging some part way in the ground without killing them. She is untouchable here with Emma adding extra resistance to Kitty's phase state defenses. Cyclops could one shot Storm, have Emma resist and out skill Jean, have Kitty run interference or partially phase some of the Ults for distractions. Wolverine would beat Ult or he could fight Colossus while Ult Wolverine faces off against 616 Colossus. And Cyclops could definitely KO any distracted ones (save for Colossus) since his Ult version won't last a ridiculous length of time against him. Jean and Storm are the biggest problems. Jean can be outskilled or stalled and taken out by someone while being stalled. Cyclops can beat his Ult version relatively quickly with a decent fight. Storm can be one shotted by a t-clap, Cyclops blast or a psi bolt on a physical level, not just a mental (Emma can use minds or bodies as grounds for psi bolts) and she won't be able to deal with Kitty cause she can't do anything so Kitty can stall her for the time. 616 Wolverine and Beast can beat their counterparts and it is debatable 616 Colossus can do the same. Plus, this is the 616 mansion which is home turf for the Astonishing team. Not sure if the Ult mansion is the same. And once Jean falls, which in a telepathic battle could make her the first, Emma is open to attacking the rest mentally.

Moderator
#25 Posted by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay said:

@CadenceV2:

I give this one to the X-Men.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

Smart A$$ :)

@charlieboy said:

@CadenceV2: Kitty has resisted the Shadow King (616) while phased. He couldn't mind control her. The Professor and Rachel have sad she is almost impossible to read. Kitty can walk on air by the way. So flyers aren't totally out of the realm of possibility. But I don't think she solo's or anything. I am just saying that they can't really hurt her. As for Emma she beat Rachel who is an omega level mutant and by Emma's own admission way more powerful. She also beat Professor X in one encounter.

I also know Emma Claim to be able to TP Sentry into a stupor before. She is very skilled in her ability. However Im confident that Jean who also Metaly defeated Xavier twice with her Phoenix Power Effortlessly and has more Impressive TP Feats that she uses in battle can take out Emma Body and Mind.

Unlike 616 Wolverine ultimate Wolvie is immune to all Telepaths (Only Phoenix being able to penetrate his Psy Defenses) so he could one shot Emma too.

#26 Posted by charlieboy (7157 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: Actually Rachel did not have the Phoenix Force when Emma beat her. She had already lost it and this was before she got the blue Phoenix echo. She did however still manifest the Phoenix symbol over her eye because it was her psychic avatar. She is however still an Omega level.

#27 Posted by charlieboy (7157 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: I don't really think that Ultimate Professor X is as impressive as the 616 Professor. He beat the Phoenix in psychic combat. He has mindscanned Galactus before.

#28 Posted by God_Spawn (39651 posts) - - Show Bio

@charlieboy: That's right, thanks for reminding me.

Moderator
#29 Posted by charlieboy (7157 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: No problem.

#30 Posted by Floopay (9292 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn:

This is Colossus during his weaker years. We're only taking feats from Astonishing X-Men in this debate.

And he didn't go blow for blow with Juggernaut, he consistently got his butt handed to him...and as for the fight with Gladiator. He took a few hits, but I had no reason to believe he was doing anything more than entertaining the Gladiator by showing him how well he could take a fist to his face...you know, until a building collapsed on him and he went unconscious...

@CadenceV2:

Also, didn't Wolverine only tag Ultimate Quicksilver after the guy had been running for an entire issue and was extremely tired. And even then I don't think he tagged him moreso than Quicksilver ran into his claws...

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#31 Edited by God_Spawn (39651 posts) - - Show Bio

@charlieboy: What issue was it again btw? Issue 452 if I'm not mistaken? I need to find the issues and reread them.

Moderator
#32 Posted by charlieboy (7157 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: Actuallly Colossus gave Juggs a really good fight in Uncanny X-men 183 i believe.

#33 Posted by God_Spawn (39651 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: He's lost against Juggernaut, so what? My point was he has fought with him, tanked his hits and given some back. He's faced against Savage Hulk and was dodging some of his and landing blows on Hulk. He traded blows with Gladiator and tanked his hits in weaker years, he was stronger and more durable in Astonishing meaning he was stronger since then.

Moderator
#34 Posted by charlieboy (7157 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: let me look it up.

#35 Posted by Floopay (9292 posts) - - Show Bio

@charlieboy said:

@Floopay: Actuallly Colossus gave Juggs a really good fight in Uncanny X-men 183 i believe.

He also got the crap beaten out of him by Juggs with no suit on in a bar brawl. I don't remember the issue number, but I know it was just after he got defeated through PIS in that Spiderman comic...

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#36 Posted by charlieboy (7157 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: That's the issue i am talking about. Juggs left before the fight was over but Colossus did go toe to toe with him. And Colossus got right up afterwards so i wouldn't say he got the crap beat out of him. Juggs knocked a building on him and left.

#37 Posted by charlieboy (7157 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: You are correct on the issue, sir.

#38 Edited by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

@jashro44: 616 still has his Juggernaut powers but this is Whedon era meaning he did not have his jugg amp at the time.

@CadenceV2:

Beating Mags Magnetics
- Holding a Jet down.
- Surviving a Nuke Arrow
- Stopping Mutli Thousands tons of Train and momentum
- Beat Down a Charging 100+ Tonner Iron Man

And 616 Colossus has caught a falling entire space ship, traded blows with Gladiator and Juggernaut when he was in his weaker years and he has only gotten stronger since then. Ultimate Magneto is weaker than his 616 counterpart so it really isn't comparable. 616 Colossus is durable enough to withstand blows from Rulk, WWH, Juggernaut, Gladiator, blasts from Cyclops, getting shot up in a fastball special by 616 Magneto to take down an entire helicarrier which also exploded. Also, he was only scored by 616 Wolverine slashing him ( there is proof that Wolverine could possibly cut him but it will take some effort on his part) and 616 adamantium is stronger than Ultimate. He has also stayed conscious from a blast of a Dreaming Celestial probe that sent him across San Francisco and gouged a massive hole in his chest. Thing has survived a nuke and considering him and Colossus have a comparable durability level, there is no reason he can't do the same. 616 Colossus I believe is more durable than his ultimate counterpart and if he is weaker it isn't by a huge margin where his durability can't make up for it.

We have Jean doing amazing feats.
- Durable to take a major hit from Enrage Colossus
- Able to communicate a world distance without Cerebro.
- Ripping Nucklear Dorrs in half easily.
- Ripping Fissure in the Earth.
- TP assaulting the mind.
- Jean TP links mutiple X-Men, reads the minds of mutiple cleaning staff, and enhance her teamates (Remove fear, increase adrenalin, ect) at the Same Time!

Ultimate Jean is less skilled which is a huge factor. When Rachel Grey (an Omega level mutant) had the Phoenix Force, Emma defeated her by using her skill.

As far as Emma's feats go

-she has sent messages to all the remaining mutants on the planet.

-Stalemate Exodus who is one of the top telepaths on 616 Earth.

-Held back Xavier's telepathy before.

-Telepathically fought with Sinister from across the country.

-Mindwipe entire towns with ease.

-Gotten past level 9 psi shields from Xavier.

-When she died they said there was a psychic backlash felt that was said to be in 616 Jean's class of power.

-Psychic surgery against a Fury.

-Undo Hive Mind Sinister's telepathy while having an arm missing and bleeding out with only Namor holding her stub closed.

Emma's diamond form has withstood blasts from the Dreaming Celestial, withstood Genosha collapsing, hits from WWH, Cyclops' blasts so she won't be KO'd by anyone here in that form.

She has power here and with her skill, what happened with Rachel (who was vastly more powerful) and with Exodus could happen with Ult Jean. I will admit Ult Jean could possibly be stronger.

And Emma has other options which I will state later against other characters.

Ultimate Wolverine Adamantium is not Connected at the joints and to suggest its weaker is ignorant. Hulk and Colossus have ripped Joint areas where Adanmtium would not be connected and could do same to 616 Wolverine period.

616 is immune to having his joints ripped off as far as we know. Dracula (who stopped Colossus' punch with a single hand) Ba'al (70-80 tonner) and Hulk were all unable to even dislocate a joint. You can call it illogical but it is consistent and is canon with the character while for Ultimate does not have that luxury.

- Wolverine Adamntium is the ONLY SUBSTANCE STRONG ENOUGH to cut thru Colossus Steel Body
- Wolverine takes heat that melts metal.
- Wolverine shot up my mutiple Shield Agents and wins.
- Wolverine is Psychis Proof. No attack of Emma will stop him.
- Adamantium strong enough to rip thru Iron Mans armour with ease.
- Fast enough to react and tag Ultimate Quicksilver >>>> 616 Quicksilver.

- 616 Wolverine has cut characters like Thanos, Hulk, Thor, Namor,

-Wolverine has survived jet crashes that caused parts of his body to melt (not the ady) and remain conscious and things that could melt metals.

-Wolverine soaks bullets on a regular basis.

- Where does it say he is completely immune? It says he could shield his thoughts but Ultimate Xavier isn't stronger than 616 so if he is shielding from himself from an inferior version why is he immune? I know Ultimate adamantium grants high resistance but not immunity. 616 Wolverine has level 9 psi shields implanted by Xavier and has his own natural willpower which makes him incredibly difficult to control and Emma bypassed them (being a level 10 psi and Xavier is stronger than her but he only implemented a high level of shields for him). So there is definitely the possibility that Emma could bypass Ultimate's telepathic resistance unless you can present total immunity.

-616 has done to the same to regular Iron Man who is superior to ultimate once again. Not to mention said characters earlier like Thanos, WWH, Thor etc.

- Ultimate Wolverine looked like he just ran a far enough distance and popped his claws. 616 Wolverine has tagged regular Quicksilver and Speedball and Speed Demon IIRC (not sure). He may be slower but he is still fast enough combined with his superior durability, superior metal and fighting skill he would win.

616 Cyke trumps overall power showings to Ult. Cyke. Ult. Cyke is still a tatical genius and can accuratly kill targets from a distance.
- Cyke kills Magneto
- Cyke blows away his parent
- Cyke one shots Wolvie

I agree that regular Cyke wins and is more powerful but he is still more accurate and a better tactician. So whether Ult Cyke is talented himself doesn't give him the edge in that category which is a factor.

616 Cyclops has crippled Xarus' massive vampire army by Trojan horsing Wolverine without his knowledge (used nanites to turn off his hf) and let Wolverine become infected. And in doing so he possibly bluffed saying to Dracula that he had X-Club put a precautionary measure in him while they resurrected him. It wasn't clear if he did but Dracula didn't take attack and thus created peace with him. He planned the mass escape of every mutant in Norman Osborn's prison while turning Magneto's old base into Utopia and get all the mutants onto that island in 10 minutes while also keeping his public image clean and make Osborn look like the bad guy. He also created 42+ plans in a single battle to try against Kuurth (amped Juggernaut). He stood up to Celestials saying he will protect Earth and the Dreaming Celestial which saved the planet. And despite the whole mess that AvX was, Cyclops' plan came true in the end by using Hope as the Phoenix to repower all the mutants.

His blasts when he was younger have ripped through mountains, destroying massive icebergs instantly that would have sunk a ship carrying hundreds of passengers. He has ripped through buildings, ripped the skin of WWH with a wide blast with visor on (making the blast weaker) and even Wolverine said WWH's skin was tough to cut (he was still able to cut him).

616 Cyclops' blasts have been stated to move at light speed (not himself which allows characters to aim dodge or perhaps he can control the speed of his blasts like his powers). Despite him not moving fast he has been able to tag Quicksilver and Northstar (who is faster than 616) and I know Ultimate shot Ult QS in the face but regular has feats similar to attacking super fast opponents.

616 Beast probaly defeats Ult. Beast but not easy.
- Beast Doges Ultimate Hawkeye >>>> 616 Hawkeye.
- Beast Strength and Agility vs Wolverine Clones.

Whedon Beast definitely wins. Regular Beast is typically beaten up by very skilled characters but this one was able to hold his own against 616 Wolverine and Emma has shown to make him feral which can make him even more dangerous since she has done it before. And defeating inferior clones doesn't do him justice against how Whedon Beast did against the real and superior version.

- Storm Wind pins the Uber Powerful Colossus
- Her Mind defeats a TP attack of the powerful Shadow King
- She pins hundreds of Shield Agents with her Lightning

She can't get Kitty anyway with her intangibility.

Astonishing should win this. They are better prepared as a team, better trained and most of the characters here are superior or hold advantages where it counts. Emma Frost has bypassed telepathic resistance before with psi bolts making Storm liable to be affected as well as others, her diamond form is enough to protect her from everything but Jean's telepathy and she can beat Jean by outskilling her like Emma has done to stronger telepaths than herself. 616 Cyclops is the superior tactician here and knows how to play the team properly in using their strengths. And since they are facing similar versions, Cyclops can use Emma us a commlink to the others after Jean goes down or where Emma can resist enough of Jean and send messages to strategize against them. Ult Cyke can do something similar but he is inferior in that aspect which is a detrimental advantage. Kitty could literally phase herself and catch others off guard by dragging some part way in the ground without killing them. She is untouchable here with Emma adding extra resistance to Kitty's phase state defenses. Cyclops could one shot Storm, have Emma resist and out skill Jean, have Kitty run interference or partially phase some of the Ults for distractions. Wolverine would beat Ult or he could fight Colossus while Ult Wolverine faces off against 616 Colossus. And Cyclops could definitely KO any distracted ones (save for Colossus) since his Ult version won't last a ridiculous length of time against him. Jean and Storm are the biggest problems. Jean can be outskilled or stalled and taken out by someone while being stalled. Cyclops can beat his Ult version relatively quickly with a decent fight. Storm can be one shotted by a t-clap, Cyclops blast or a psi bolt on a physical level, not just a mental (Emma can use minds or bodies as grounds for psi bolts) and she won't be able to deal with Kitty cause she can't do anything so Kitty can stall her for the time. 616 Wolverine and Beast can beat their counterparts and it is debatable 616 Colossus can do the same. Plus, this is the 616 mansion which is home turf for the Astonishing team. Not sure if the Ult mansion is the same. And once Jean falls, which in a telepathic battle could make her the first, Emma is open to attacking the rest mentally.

Im Intrigued as to why you think Ult. colos is more durable but weaker. I actually figure the oppossit. Stronger but maybe less Durability. As you said he traded blows with Rulk, Gladiator, ect but lost. Vs Ultimate colos who has beaten Thor and Iron Man down the same day and their both 100+ tonners.

also I belive Ultimate Mags feats of Magnetic control and Ability is SUPERRIOR to 616 Mags where 616 Mags has more Energy waves he can use his with.

Ultimate Mags activates every Nuke in the World. His power>>> 616.
Actually destroys Wolverine on the atomic Level >>> 616 meraley pulling metal.
See thru metal >>> 616
Reprograms a Sentinal Army >>> 616
Thor Enchanted Hammer >>> 616

Ultimate Mags MAGNETIC powers are in no way Inferior to 616. 616 has more abilities thats it. Ultimate Mags wiped out mutiple heros in his plans >>> 616 failed plans.

Also still like proof where Ult. Wolvie Adamantium is weaker. It never been broken by anything but Magneto.

As for Emma shes Horribly outclass by Jean.

As seen here Jean under control has power to travel the Universe in months looking for Heaven and back to earth in a week.

She TKs a mile of solid Nuck Facility couple miles in the air and Atomizes it.

Jean has erased the Worlds minds at once as well Bring X-Men back to life and repaire all Damage by Apocalypse. I wont use the feats of Reality Warping there but TP to erase what happen from the whole World!? Thats >>> to anything Emmas done.

These Ultimates are no way inferior to there 616 counterparts.

#39 Posted by God_Spawn (39651 posts) - - Show Bio

@charlieboy: Thanks, bud.

Moderator
#40 Posted by charlieboy (7157 posts) - - Show Bio

The main problem i am seeing is I don't see how they are going to hurt Kitty.

#41 Posted by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: Nah the Brother hood was resting and living it up for a day in a safehouse. Also QS nearly ran into Wolvies claws. Wolvie then Tag him bluntly announcing his intentions.

As shown. We all know Ultimate QS is Fast enough for this.

His Reaction speed is Lightning Fast.@god_spawn said:

@Floopay: He's lost against Juggernaut, so what? My point was he has fought with him, tanked his hits and given some back. He's faced against Savage Hulk and was dodging some of his and landing blows on Hulk. He traded blows with Gladiator and tanked his hits in weaker years, he was stronger and more durable in Astonishing meaning he was stronger since then.

Ultimate Colos without any trouble beaten Thor and Iron Man in a fist fight same day.

#42 Posted by Floopay (9292 posts) - - Show Bio

@charlieboy said:

The main problem i am seeing is I don't see how they are going to hurt Kitty.

Does phasing make her immune to tp?

Also, she's gotta come out of her phasing sometime...

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#43 Posted by God_Spawn (39651 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: I'll get the big post tomorrow. This is fun.

Ultimate Thor is significantly weaker than 616 and Ultimate Iron Man is also weaker than 616 Tony so it's pointless really in mentioning them as both 616 would defeat both Colossuses...Colossusi?

Moderator
#44 Posted by charlieboy (7157 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: She was recently phased for months when her powers were messed up. And yes i have already posted about her tp resistance.

#45 Posted by charlieboy (7157 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: Jean is far more powerful yes. But Emma is far more skilled. Which I believe is the point being made.

#46 Posted by THUNDERBOLT30 (11737 posts) - - Show Bio

I think this would be a decent fight but I think the skill level of the Astonishing team will garner the win.

#47 Posted by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@charlieboy said:

@CadenceV2: Jean is far more powerful yes. But Emma is far more skilled. Which I believe is the point being made.

I belive the same. Skill vs Power.

@THUNDERBOLT30 said:

I think this would be a decent fight but I think the skill level of the Astonishing team will garner the win.

Experiance is what they have for sure and win on that more than anything.

@god_spawn said:

@CadenceV2: I'll get the big post tomorrow. This is fun.

Ultimate Thor is significantly weaker than 616 and Ultimate Iron Man is also weaker than 616 Tony so it's pointless really in mentioning them as both 616 would defeat both Colossuses...Colossusi?

Ulitmate Thor is weaker than Classic Thor, King Thor, Rune Thor, and Odin Thor. HOWEVER theres no feats from Current Thor without Odin Force that suggest hes so much more powerful.

Ultimate Thor these days. Classic Thor lost to Sabage Hulk. Hyperion would eat Savage Hulk. Ultimate Thor matches Hyperion really well. Thing about Ultimate Thor is his durability Feats are superior to Current Thors as Ultimate just cant be beaten down by Hulk, Ultimates, Hyperion, Colossus, or mutiple Iron Men. He simply cant be put down and uses better control of Lightning and BFR than 616 Thor.

As for Ultimate Iron Man I pit him vs 616 Iron Man as well in Feats and showings.

Iron Man intercepts 99% Speed of light Silver Surfer.

Iron Man Tumor hacks other tech.

Iron Man 100+ Tonner.

IM Bio. He has Thought scramblers, Sound Waves Blasters, Invisibility, ect tech as well.... His Stats are on par with 616. HES NOT INFERIOR!

Im not sure why you feel Ultimate Verse is weaker. Lack of feats? Sure understanable they dont have as many years of comics. Are the feats they have comparable to current 616? Yes they are.

#48 Posted by charlieboy (7157 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: I do agree the Ultmate team does have power on their side.

#49 Posted by God_Spawn (39651 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2:

Ultimate Thor these days. Classic Thor lost to Sabage Hulk. Hyperion would eat Savage Hulk. Ultimate Thor matches Hyperion really well. Thing about Ultimate Thor is his durability Feats are superior to Current Thors as Ultimate just cant be beaten down by Hulk, Ultimates, Hyperion, Colossus, or mutiple Iron Men. He simply cant be put down and uses better control of Lightning and BFR than 616 Thor.

Classic Thor never lost to Savage Hulk. Regardless, current Thor is still better. Defeating an amped Hulk and Thing while having an injury, fighting and defeating Glory, a supposed Odin level being, stalemating Silver Surfer win an injury (in character but still) There isn't much difference to how Thor is being written than he was a year ago. He's just faced more powerful opponents (save for Glory whom he beat absorbing and redirecting his attack) and loses to them. It's why Emma beat him, why Namor beat him up, why Cyclops stopped his hammer. They were just more powerful. He beat Glory using an absorption attack. Ultimate Hulk is weaker than 616 so if he can't be beaten by him big deal.

IM Bio. He has Thought scramblers, Sound Waves Blasters, Invisibility, ect tech as well.... His Stats are on par with 616. HES NOT INFERIOR!
Im not sure why you feel Ultimate Verse is weaker. Lack of feats? Sure understanable they dont have as many years of comics. Are the feats they have comparable to current 616? Yes they are.

He is and they are inferior. Bleeding Edge Tony is on another level.

Moderator
#50 Posted by THUNDERBOLT30 (11737 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: You stated it better. Defintiely agree that the combat experience garners the win for Astonishing here.