Ultimate Spider Men vs Peter Parker and Ben Reilly

VS

• This is Ultimate Spider Man (Peter), Spider Man (Miles), Spider Woman, Khain, Scorpion, and Tarantula vs Spider Man (Peter Parker) and Scarlet Spider (Ben Reilly)
• Both team start 100 feet apart.
• In Character for Ultimate Team. morals of for 616 Team.
• Death or KO.
• Battle on the New York Roof Tops.
• Standard Gear.

@laflux@strider92@jashro44@shawnbaby@risingbean What ya think on this one?

Peter Parker/

@cadencev2:

Where do you guys get those bio thingys?

Interesting. Judging by the bios of the other ultimate spider-team it would seem ultimate Peter parker is ranked as a 6 toner...

Anyways team ultimate wins. Way to many numbers. At least shut morals off for the 616 team and leaves morals on for the ultimate team.

Ultimate team takes this.

Yup. Either that or prep.

Pretty much, which explains how Cap can nearly stalemate him in a pushing match.

However Ultimate Peter has several feats that are 9-12 tons. Lifting a easy 8 ton Forklift, slamming a 9 ton truck, throwing a Taxi Cap filled with water 100s of feet with one arm, ect.....

Your high. Then everyone will simply state Team 616 would stomp.

Your high as well. Super Spider Insider suit ring any bells? Im grabbing another Redds Apple Ale. I might as well be drunk if you two want to be high.

@cadencev2: Yea I agree there feats are in the 9-12 ton range.

Not really. Everyone is saying that the ultimate team wins so far. And wyldsong agrees with me that you should either give the 616 team prep or shut there morals off.

OK, I will make it Morals off for 616 team, prep is way to much.

Well, it depends on the level of prep allowed (without pre-Horizon would make it more fair, since he would have a lack of major resources), but morals off and prep would be too much. I do think that morals off for the 616 team makes this a better fight though.

Lol...I have Redds in the fridge and was about to partake. As for the prep, see my post above=)

As for morals off, if people come in screaming stomp, then they are showing a lack of knowledge on the Ultimate U team. With the levels of speed, strength, webs, and spider sense involved, it is really the only (other) way to give the 616 team a shot.

@cadencev2: Pretty even fight now.

While the majority of the Ult Clones are not drowning in feats, I think they allow swarm tactics to probably overwhelm the 616 guys. From what I hear of Miguel his zap touch could be just what the Ult team needs to cement a victory.

I love Redds now. They do not give me heart burn like my wine does.

616 can take a few down but there's too many. Just because it seems the Ult Spider-Men a far inferior strength wise doesn't mean they are in any other way. I've seen nothing to suggest that Ult Peter is slower than 616 Peter (only that 616 is more experienced and better trained). I'm going to say the Ultimates take this with fairly heavy casualties (not that Peter and Ben are going to kill any of them but I mean just taking them out of the fight).

Redds (apple) and the Raspberry and Chocolate Wheat Shocktops are my favorites. If they did the pumpkinator year round, that would probably take my top, #1 spot.

While Ben & Peter have experience fighting large groups of Spider-Powered foes (Clone Saga) together, none of them have the feats/experience team 1610 is bringing to the table.

No morals makes it a bit closer, but I'm going with team 1610 for the win.

Actually I would say most of the clones Peter and Ben have fought have more experience than The Ultimate Team does. Most of them have Peter's Memories up to the point he was cloned. All of Peter's feats up to that point apply to them. A few of the Spider-Man Clones Peter and Ben fought would be able to solo here (Spider-Cide and Classic Kaine). And then there's the whole Spider-Island deal. Add to that Peter's Way of the Spider, vastly superior experience, and No morals and there's going to be a very high body count even if the ultimate team does manage to eventually bring the 616 duo down.

Miles is key here for the Ultimate Team....his Venom Sting is really the only thing that can quickly put down either Ben or Peter. I doubt Peter would let Miles get a hand on him again though...so Miles is gonna have to take down Ben early in the fight. On the other side of the coin though is that Peter knows Miles can hurt them...and that might make the young lad a primary target.

So, my thoughts are that if Miles can take down Ben before getting taken down himself...the Ultimate team has a real good shot at winning here. If Miles goes down first than the morals off 616 team will show the 1610 team who the real "Ultimate Spider-Men" are.

In the same way 616 Spider-Man is a 10 tonner.

I know. I stated in a later post (see post 10) I agree that ultimate peter is a 9-12 toner on feats. Its just a few years ago (like when i first joined the vine) people use to say ultimate peter was a 5-6 toner and now I know where they got that idea from.

Me too. I recently got these Bio scans. Spider Woman's Bio also states 6 tons.

@cadencev2: For what its worth I wouldn't put much faith in bios. Tom Breevort (a head editor at marvel) has pretty much stated that bios can be incorrect:

http://new.spring.me/#!/TomBrevoort/q/377453075603935802

http://new.spring.me/#!/TomBrevoort/q/376157190991401158

Nice finds! I myself am Feats before Bio's guy these days.

Yea same. I saved these quotes for those reasons. I think bios can be used as long as there isn't on panel evidence to contradict it.

@jashro44: I love bios though.. they help me keep consistent stats for characters. but its the book feats that are degrading the value of official handbooks smh.

anyway... I think team 2 can win with morals off. they are both superior, not holding back, grown men with more experience, and they will both have knowledge of miles venom sting which will make him the first to go down

I think people should know that Spider Woman also knows that the 616 Peter knows of Miles and his Venom sting. She was there for the report of the encounter after all at SHIELD. I think both Miles and her will be pairing tightly together.

She also acts as his big sister in the comics.

@cadencev2: true... but I dont think she could do much about 616 peter or ben

@shawnbaby excellent point, I forgot about the transplanted memories. That could weigh it a bit more in the 616 team's favor.

Whoo. Quite a battle here. Nice thread @cadencev2.

If we're talking a morals-off 616 group, then we're talking about a Way of the Spider Peter Parker out for some blood, with Ben Reilly not too far behind. 616 Parker wasn't even touched by a fighter with literal future telling and pre-cog

You'll notice that on the bottom Julia mentions how she can't get a single hit in (neither can Spidey). This was morals on without Spider sense. I mention sans Spider sense, because, IIRC, spider sense doesn't work on other spider-people. I'm going to assume this crosses parallel universes as well.

Ben Reilly is the weaker link in the 616 team because he doesn't have the martial experience...I think. I'm not sure what he's done aside from just being virtually identical, physically speaking, to Peter.

However, this isn't some auto-win for Team 616. Not by a loooong shot. Cadence knows his Ult. Universe, I don't think he'd put this fight up here for no flippin' reason.

1610 (the numbering for the Ult. U) Peter may not have the physical maturity of 616 Pete, but he's got just as much experience, if not more. His Green Goblin is far more powerful and scary than the 616 version (he's actually some kind of demon/goblin. With f%$!ing FIREBALLS). He's survived Ultimatum (quite a testament) and lived (momentarily) from getting shot by a sniper round. The kid is tough. His training isn't non-existent as he's been trained by SHIELD to be a more effect hero.

Ult. Jessica (Spider-Woman, Peter's female clone who's kind of cute) also has similar physicals with training from SHIELD as well. I'm not completely familiar with the UU and it's goings on, so Scorpion, Tarantula, and Kaine I'm pretty unfamiliar with, so for me, I don't know what they can or can't do.

Miles, although a little weaker while still possibly being just as fast, has his cloaking and Venom Sting, which has knocked out a morals on 616 Peter twice.

I'm thinking the team could pull off a victory if the clones and Pete/Jessica distract the 616 team enough for Miles to go invisible and VS Ben, then Peter.

However, if the morals off 616 just manhandle the clones (this is possible because they are apparently mentally unstable. could be a weakness), then Ult. Pete and Jess are in for a hard battle.

I think this depends on how fast 616 team picks off the members. The longer the battle goes, the higher their chances rise of winning, due to strategy and a sort of OHKO move that Miles has. Again, if adult Pete and Ben are cutting loose as if they were fighting the Hulk.....yowch.

But writers don't even listen to the hand books as indicated by Breevort above. So why should we listen to a source that the people writing the characters do not accept as fact?

@jashro44: im no arguing.. im just saying I like official handbooks. who writes the handbooks anyway? and why make them if they are so unreliable?

The only thing about them that is usually unreliable is in the stat section.. Most of the other information contained in those entries is pretty reliable though.

as for who writes them...Nobody you've ever heard of...probably just some low-level copy writers.

There are explanations for why the Stats are often so far off of what we see from feats. One of the most basic explanations is that the strength level listed is what you might consider a "base measurement". So, basically it's an indicator of what they can usually bench press under normal conditions. Strength Feats however, are usually when the character is all amped up on adrenaline and desperation. We've all heard the stories of a housewife lifting a tree to save her children and what not. So...if a 150 pound soccer mom can do that...imagine what someone like Spider-Man could do under similar circumstances.

Another explanation is that Comic Book writers don't necessarily know what everything weighs. They might think it'd be cool to have Spider-man lift a tank...not realizing that the average weight of a tank is usually around 40-60 tons.

Another big problem with the newer books is Marvel's "Powergrid" system. It's a garbage system really. I'll put up a couple images to show you why.

The first scan is of the different rankings in the Power Grid. The Second is 2005's Spider-Man Entry. You can see that Spider-Man is listed as having a Strength of 4. When you check that on the Power Grid ranking it says that 4 means he can lift between 800 pounds and 25 tons. That's an incredibly huge range and not helpful at all. The other ranges aren't really any better. Strength 5 is 25-75 tons.

Now I know the entry specifically states Peter as being a 15 tonner in the powers section but not all entries specify strength level so specifically. (as we can see in Squirrel Girl's Entry.)

Speed is the same Boat. Spider-man is Speed 3...that means he can move up to 700 MPH. Now...Spidey is fast and all...but he's not 700 MPH fast...so once again we aren't left with any useful information.

I don't know where they came up with the system or why they decided to max it out at 7 and not allow for fractions. That really limits how accurate and useful any of these entries can be to the reader.

If you look at Squirrel Girl's Entry you can see that,other than intelligence, her stats line up exactly with Spidey. Pretty much shows exactly how limited that system is when, on paper, Squirrel Girl and Spider-Man are almost completely identical.

@shawnbaby: Actually Spider-Man's fastest travel feat speed puts at way above Mach speed, and it was peformed during the classic age, when he didn't use speed as much. He used Parkour to cover 2 miles in 5 seconds, which is stupidly fast, considering terminal velocity (free-falling) limits you to around 122 mph. But its by far Spider-Man's fastest travel speed feat, apart from temporarily outpacing tracking bullets........

Pretty much.

Yeah..I've seen that incident..I call PIS.

There are way too many factors going against Peter and Ben here. Peter may have an edge in every way possible, but it's not significant enough to make a difference against several similar versions of himself. It'll be a brutal battle but the Ultimate team wins.

If Pete and Ben had Morals on I'd agree with you. Especially considering that Pete and Ben with Morals on will not harm children. But with morals off they will go for kill shots while the Ultimate team is trying to subdue them. I think that gives them the edge they need to win. If the Ultimate Team does win...their casualties will be very high. On the plus side at least they'll be able to farm genetically identical replacement parts off of the corpses. Well...except for Miles.

Interesting analysis of the battle, appreciate the insight. Although, I'd still have to disagree. In my eyes, I'd probably rank Ult. Pete as equal to or even better than Ben. Truthfully, the only Spider here that has any significant advantage over the other is 616 Pete and that's because of his ridiculous experience, skill, and consistent improvement with his powers. Ben lacks that advantage and while he would probably be Ult. Pete's superior in terms of physicals, if only because of the adult body, his experience compared Pete is not something to boast about.

In addition, I doubt a morals off Peter is going to kill anyone at all. The best example of morals off Pete was when he fought against Kingpin. He was fully intent on beating the snot out of him but he never killed him nor any of the thugs that he assumed to be a part of the shooting of Aunt May. He just didn't really hold back anymore. A bloodlusted Pete like the one we saw in Grim Hunt is is definitely an example that's willing to kill.

Ben and Pete have a slight advantage over each member of the Ultimate Team but the numbers are saying otherwise.So,Ultimate Team for the win for me.

I wouldn't call that incident a Morals Off Pete. That's just a really pissed off Pete that wanted to send a message that messing with him through the people he cares about is not a good idea. His morals were lax...but not off.

Eh, that's debatable. A lot of his monologue and behaviour assumed otherwise. How he treated police officers, the way he attacked random thugs. He cared little for his actions towards others (villains) but not to the point of killing them. I don't see morals off as necessarily meaning mean he's flat out ready to kill someone.

Well...Morality isn't a switch than can be turned on or off like that..there would be degrees. I still wouldn't call Back in Black Spider-Man Morals off...he was just very angry. When one is that angry it stands to reason that they will resort to more violent solutions. Despite his rage though...he never did anything more than put some thugs into the hospital for an extended stay. He wasn't even as brutal as SpOck has been.

When I think of a Morals off Spider-Man I tend to think about The Spec Ops Spider-Man from What If.

Wow I'm dumb, I didn't honestly see the morals off part. I thought I read "Morals on for both teams". This may honestly change things in my opinion. Both 616 character have shown much better durability than their Ultimate counterparts (although speed, as I stated before, is pretty equal). Don't know how I missed that...

@shawnbaby said:

Well...Morality isn't a switch than can be turned on or off like that..there would be degrees. I still wouldn't call Back in Black Spider-Man Morals off...he was just very angry. When one is that angry it stands to reason that they will resort to more violent solutions. Despite his rage though...he never did anything more than put some thugs into the hospital for an extended stay. He wasn't even as brutal as SpOck has been.

When I think of a Morals off Spider-Man I tend to think about The Spec Ops Spider-Man from What If.

A fair point although I wouldn't consider the SpOck comparison to be very accurate. Octavius is just a manipulative psychopath who masquerades as a "do-gooder". Nice choice for the What If Spidey but I feel like that's an entirely different beast, like a totally different mindset. Kind of takes away the purpose of consistent morals but I can see the point you're making.

@deranged_midget said:

@shawnbaby said:

Well...Morality isn't a switch than can be turned on or off like that..there would be degrees. I still wouldn't call Back in Black Spider-Man Morals off...he was just very angry. When one is that angry it stands to reason that they will resort to more violent solutions. Despite his rage though...he never did anything more than put some thugs into the hospital for an extended stay. He wasn't even as brutal as SpOck has been.

When I think of a Morals off Spider-Man I tend to think about The Spec Ops Spider-Man from What If.

A fair point although I wouldn't consider the SpOck comparison to be very accurate. Octavius is just a manipulative psychopath who masquerades as a "do-gooder". Nice choice for the What If Spidey but I feel like that's an entirely different beast, like a totally different mindset. Kind of takes away the purpose of consistent morals but I can see the point you're making.

Well the SpOck comparison was just to show that Peter, on his worst day, still has a higher moral stance than Octavious at his best. SpOck does show what a Spider-Man is capable of when he is not holding back though.

I think the big thing is that during "Back in Black" Peter wasn't acting Out of Character. He was acting entirely inside the baselines of his personality when someone he cares for is hurt or threatened. We've seen it with Uncle Ben, Gwen Stacy, Jean DeWolfe, Ben Reilly, Kaine, Madame Web, and Mattie Franklin. Peter has his limits. Push him too far and it can get nasty.

Demons run when a Good Man goes to War.

As far as Spec Ops Spidey is concerned... It is a different Mindset. It's a morals free mindset. But he's still Peter Parker...He was still raised by Aunt May and Uncle Ben, Still had his uncle shot by a man he let run by, everything about him is the same as 616 Pete...up until The incident with Wolverine...that's the point of divergence.

@jashro44: @wyldsong: @laflux: @granitesoldier: @deranged_midget: @shawnbaby: Well i went through the trouble for ya'll, your welcome, to get what little feats the Ultimate Clones have. Thye had very little face time, however they did have for a fact all of Ultimate Peter experience and memories up to the first Carnage Incident. Close to 60 comics worth of feats.

For Miles and Peter's feats.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/ultimate-spider-man-tribute-1456204/

Scorpion

Gallery

Spider Man first battle with the Clones. This turns out to be a mental unstable Clone of peter with Acid shooting gauntlet and powerful Tail weapon.

Pete vs Scorpion.

Khain and Tarantula

Gallery

Khain vs Tarantula. Then Khain avoiding Oz Mary Jane.

Spider Woman

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Spider Woman embarrasses a enraged Peter.

Gallery

Spider Man and Spider Woman team up against a new and improved Magneto like Dock Ock.

Gallery

Spider Woman survives Hulk.

Gallery

Spider woman KOes Vulture.

Gallery

Spider Woman embarrasses Miles when he first started the gig.

Gallery

Spider Woman saving Miles butt in a middle of a major war.

Gallery

Spider Woman and Miles vs Task Master.

Just for some frame of reference.