Ultimate Spider-Man vs 616 Wolverine

Well, I was trying to troll laflux just a tad, as he has me multiple times over. I thought it was all fun and games, till I realize he's taking things far too personal. No longer fun. Moving on ...

Lying... lol. You sure, I will read that arc again. Im pretty sure peter knew he was since he did go undercover to infiltrate King Pins circle. Peter knew Moonknight was going undercover with a new identity.

Ronin is nearly as fast as Peter as I showed in the 1st page. Of course he dodges, he is near Spider man in speed and knows Peter Web incap as he did it twice to him already. He also end up tagging Peter with a fired Tranq Dart at close range that cause him to instant win. The funny part is Moonknight was also given a POWER BOOST as per Doctor Strange. Slip your mind there too huh? No wonder he dodged the webbing, his stats were amped!

No context.....

See @jashro44@floopay moonknight was amped, context.

I apologize, I was unsure.

@luciustheeternal:

1. Regardless of whether he knew that was Moon Knight or not (He never showed any indication that he knew), Peter was still attacking him full throttle because he was endangering children.

2.Amped or not he hasn't shown any avoidance capabilities that are better than Wolverine's, and he is still clearly an inferior combatant that escape Peter's incap attempt with no problem.

What a d!ck, ruining @super_soldierxii's fun like that.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

Just in regards to what you said I am trying to be neutral here because I think this can go either way so I'm only going to address this one point but the thing is with experience, the number of foes you fight doesn't matter its the variety that does. Ultimate Peter has faced some challenging threats, I agree. But the major issue here is that he hasn't faced someone with wolverines exact ability set (no one too my knowledge who has wolverines skill, durability, and claws combination).

On the other hand wolverine has had tons of fights with various spiders (the most important one obviously being 616 Peter), some good and some not so good. But his experience in these fights lets him know how to act in this fight. The same can't really be said for Ultimate Peter Parker...So for that reason I give the experience edge to wolverine. Peters experience with ultimate dock ock, green goblin, etc. wont be as helpful because wolverine is a lot different from them.

Again I kind of just want to watch the debate for the most part but I think in terms of experience which he doesn't normally have on 616 (since they have fought like a dozen times 616 Peter has experience on wolverine as well), it does equalize some of ultimate Peters other advantages.

Yeah, still haven't seen much in the Spider-Man side that justifies a majority her. The most impressive feat that has been demonstrated for him thus far has been being able to web incap a group of people whom are not only slower than Wolverine on the basis of feats, but were distracted when the web incap in question occurred. Why this relates to being able to web incap someone whom is fast enough to compete, has better avoidance feats, and has cut webbing from people with better web incap feats like Kaine is beyond me. Wolverine is going to be on avoidance mode here. The idea that he's just going to be clawing and slashing just underestimates his combat intelligence and the edge experience grants him. He has fought 616 Spider-Man and has knowledge of webbing means to him if it connects, he is going to be on guard for webbing. He has more fights against an all around dangerous Spider-Ma(With very good performances in his portfolio)n to base his actions upon. He's a smarter fighter than Ultimate Peter(Brain during combat thinks at the rate of an Olympic gold medalist finishing an Olympic gold medal winning routine while simultaneously beating four chess computers in his head). He's fully capable of realizing that he has to be on constant watch trying to avoid webbing, and his avoidance feats when he has prioritized avoidance are better than anyone Ultimate Peter has managed to web incap. He can get in melee here if he prioritized avoidance, and in melee, he's got the advantage of vastly better skill, damage soak, and damage out put. Wolverine's main edge lies in knowledge of how Ultimate Peter works and the means to understand how to not to let the fight get on his terms.

Ultimate Spider-mans aim isn't too good....

yes you would think that's the case, but for plot reasons is rarely done, they always end up brawling. There is that one scan where he did web him up just fine all over the web, and that scan of him being sling shot out of the battle field. If peter is smart enough to do that then that would be fantastic. For the sake of the story though he never used his brains until the last issue after getting his butt kicked and sulking about how much he in his own words "sucked" one of his earlier fights he punched ox in the stomach and either broke his hand or almost broke his hand, because he didn't scope out the situation he thought he could just get in close range and punch him in the stomach, he punched hammer head twice not learning after the first time, he almost got choked out by the green goblin because he didn't keep his distance, the ringer, and so on, even until his later years the ultimates got fed up and wanted to train him.

however wolverine does the same thing, decades of training and his go to move is arms wide out and yelling while charging.

could go either way.

While Wolverine may be different, it's not like the concept of someone with regeneration and claws is exactly "new" to Ultimate Peter Parker. Lizard Man, Green Goblin, Venom/Carnage (well, not necessarily claws, but they were certainly scarier), and a few others who used bladed weaponry. And Wolverine doesn't have the strength to counter webs as efficiently as some of these here could.

I don't think Ultimate Pete will be as likely to take this to a fist fight as his 616 counterparts. Where they risked close quarters in almost every single fight, that just isn't Ultimate Pete's "style". While I will say Wolverine has that advantage, I still don't see it getting him very far against someone who doesn't really seem likely (due to a lack of not wanting) to get close to his claws.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

BTW great thought out post my friend.

Seriously lets look at the Spider Man foes that are better than Wolverine.

Ultimate Venom (Healing, Claws, and superios stats)

Ultimate Caranage (Same a above)

Ultimate Moonknight (Faster than Wolverine with Magic Amp, and normal wise as near speed to Peter himself. He uses blades weapons, and has insane skill as well Durability showings)

Ultimate Scorpion (Peter clone who had his skill, experience, but insane. Had Acid abilities, and all Peters Stats, had a sharp Stinger tail)

All these guys are Wolverine like, and Venom as well Carnage are superior to a large degree in stats, and healing.

I wouldn't say its bad, he did manage to tag ultimate moon knights crescent darts out of the air:

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Problem being is those guys aren't anything like wolverine. They heal sure but they rely on powers instead of martial arts which makes them vastly different. There is a difference between fighting a martial artist and a powerhouse character. He may not have the strength but webbing has been cut and there are examples of it, so adamantium claws should be able to unless wolverine is restrained in a way he can't cut free at all.

He seems to go melee quite a bit from what I have seen.

@jashro44: Ultimate Peter is a short-medium ranged character. If you look through all his fights he stays close, but he often dances around his opponents whenever possible and avoids their threat range. He relies on webbing first, and goes for strikes whenever there's an opening.

He's not a "brawler" is what I should have said.
Thanks for reading,

Floopay

Fair enough all though for the record I think the same can be said for 616. He did use webbing for example in the infamous grave yard fight (he just made the mistake of not cocooning wolverine right off the bat).

@jashro44: Exception is Ultimate Moonknight/Ronin. He is very skilled fighter, and has the same SSS experiment Ultimate Cap had done on him, and he had a magic amp as Ronin.

Also Electra is a insanely skilled assassin (Ultimate Daredevil and Electra comics, Ultimate Team Up Comics, as well many Ultimate Spider Man comics) who uses stabby weapons with great skill, and clear meta human stats.

Wolverine is nothing new as far as skill goes. He is better sure, but its not like Spider Man never face skill.

Vague and hyped filled descriptions. Bring out Ultimate Moon Knight and Elektra's feats of skill and compare them with Wolverine, I'm betting they're a couple of tiers below Wolverine.

According to hand books ultimate moon knight is peak human and is enhanced as Ronin. And is he as skilled as wolverine?

Same as above. Also neither have Logans durability which will come in handy. Again its not just durability alone or the skill alone, but the combination of the two which I think will cause problems for Ultimate Peter which make me undecided.

Almost everyone by feats is a couple tiers below. The guy is 200 years old, has trained in so many MAs, and blah blah blah. Yet he has trouble with many foes and people less skilled than him given him a hard time in comics. While he is way more skilled, it will not matter as his stats are still lower, Peter still has massive experience vs superior foes (in a killing sense and power sets) so he will not simply drop from the opening moves as many think, also Peter has the web incap as well Spider Sense to counter Wolverine close range dominance.

What did we discus about hand books. In the Hand books Kangaroo is peak human. Yet he lifts a CAR OVER HIS HEAD even though he has a strength rating of 2!

Moonknight was shown able to jump building to building from a hospitable room, as well speed so fast that Peter remarks he is almost as fast as he is (as seen in the scans I posted on 1st page). There is nothing peak Human about Moonknight much less Ronin, unless they mean Captain America peak human.

Flagged.

Can I see scans of him hopping from building to building? Pretty sure ultimate peter was joking when he said ultimate moon knight was almost as fast as he was though. He then danced around him pretty easily and he didn't seem to be serious at all. Does moon knight have any other speed feats in the ultimate universe?

Yes you may friend, give me a few minuets, i am actually collecting his feats right now.

@luciustheeternal: All right.

You cannot possibly be serious. Have you completely lost your marbles?

@jashro44: OK Ultimate Moonknight.

Bio breakdown. He is possible Ex CIA or Ex Navy Seal. Either way he was part of a failed SSS test. his Bio reflects his crazy speed, and the feats below show hist Durability and Strength (per jumping strength) is indeed superhuman and not where it is placed at. As seen they rated his skill as a 6, pretty high as he is skilled in various MAs.

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The first time we see him we see Ultimate Moonknight gives Spider man a hard time, Peter comments he is almost as fast as him.

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Moonknight then meets up for the major throw down. In it he dodges bullets, fights Electra, and takes a sai in the gut from being distracted. Then still kills Electra with a Crescent Dart.

After being in the hospitable a short time, he wakes up, and jumps from the hospitable window to the next building. Then travels rooftops to home.

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Then MK is back to work the next day fighting Punisher, and Spider Man.

He escapes Daredevil and Spider Man, and again does Matrix style jumps across roof tops.

MK is then offered to go undercover for the heroes. He is enchanted with amped power along with appearance by Strange.

With the new look and such, he tries out for King Pin.

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Under the Name Ronin, he goes after Parker and has a mental breakdown at this point due to his advance Personality disorder. Going all out, he beats Kitty (no small feat and a showing of smarts suffocating her to get her) and then with the amp stats (Including speed) gets Parker. he then even uses Parker's own web shooters to web swing away.

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While still suffering a mental breakdown, Kingpin uses his super strength to head bash MK into submission. Then MK gets a bullet in his head. Head shot, and face down in a river for hours, he comes to, and makes his way to a hospitable to report the crime like no big deal lol.

That is the last I seen of MK.

Things to note real quick as per this debate. MK is able to cut out of the webbing with time and only when Parker is distracted. MK is very skilled, and has superhuman stats before being enhanced.

@floopay Future reference for ya too.

@luciustheeternal: He doesn't seem to be that super human to me. The first jump doesn't seem to be that far. And in the second jumping scans it looks like he is using his cape to glide. At least before he became Ronin.

Jashro, show me a scan of a "peak human" with major internal injuries from a sai in the organs jumping over 300 feet from a 10 feet running start. Show me. Also for the second one, the cape is never said or shown to glide .

He also tanks Spider Man hits a few times before the enhancement.

While strength wise maybe peak human, nothing peak human about his durability.

What makes you say that building is 300 feet? Are you talking about on the second scan where we see him staring a great distance from the building? Because we don't see him jump to that building.....As for the cap thats how it looks like to me. Is this what you're talking about:

I thought you were talking about the jump on the other page that was attacked to this...Anyways what makes you say he jumped that distance?

Well Peter holds back so that could be due to his pain tolerance. I am sure if ultimate peter went full out moon knight would die.

Either way re look at the scan, there is easy 100 foot jumps he is doing from building to building in the bottom left of the scan, while injured still.

So lets say he is peak human, (doubt it IMO) he is still has shown and stated Super Human in speed from the get go, has insane durability feats vs what should be instant death shots, and still has stated skill thats pretty high up.

@luciustheeternal: See my edit.

Also concerning the grid Ben Reily was also rated as a 6 in fighting skills so I don't really trust the grid which is inconsistent. And Wolverine himself is rated as a 7 IIRC. His speeds been addressed but I think peter was joking with his comment...

@jashro44: I do not trust the grid at all, but he is not peak human as Spider Man stated with his speed, and durability surviving feats. Why would Dr, Strange say enhance powers if he was peak human. He would have no powers then no?

Here is what I mean.

Also the grid is not too bad off as Wolverine trained kitty and her skills are great. She beaten many foes easy including Spidey, Torch, and Iceman as well Sabertooth easy. Yet he beats her. Also the grid says he has super speed right, rated three on the bio grid naturally? Spidey comments on this as well.

He has clear enhance speed. However what is wrong on the grid is they show his powers in strength and durability increase but not his speed by Strange, which is bullcrap as Strange stated Enhance his Powers not enhance only Durability and Strength.

Anyway he is clear super human from the start.

@luciustheeternal: For your first scan we only do see one jump...The other scans we have no way of knowing if moon knight actually jumped to those buildings or what. I've seen batman pull houdini acts before, Its possible ultimate moon knight was doing that for all we know. He seems to walk through the door later in the 3rd building you show...

It honestly looks like gliding to me. Just the way he is holding his cape....

And again the last scan with spider-man he wasn't serious....

My issue with the grid is they are extremely inconsistent, just look at these hand books, both are from the most recent marvel fact files:

According to the grid Peter is faster, smarter, stronger, and more durable than Ben.....How ever Ben is a better fighter (despite this bio being post way of the spider spider-man). In fact Ben going by the grid would be a better fighter than daredevil and black panther too....Which makes 0 sense. I'd also like to know what these energy projection abilities that Peter has are...I mean how the hell did he manage to get a 4 in energy projection? LOL. The people who do the grids must be high.

The powers and abilities section is more accurate though. It mentions Peters abilities and it states Ben has all of peters powers...Anyways him beating Kitty I wont address as I know nothing about her skill so I'll take your word that shes a good fighter for now. Anyways I have no issue saying Ronan is enhanced but has Peter beat Ronan? In the scans I saw Ronan ended up beating him. I still think ultimate Peter has a shot.

@jashro44: Meh, I pointed out the facts as follows.

1) He was clearly jumping everywhere to get back to his apartment while heaily injrured, and while you can think he is gliding, there is no proof or showing anywhere his cape can glide. He simply has matrix style jump and held the cape for awesome dramatic effect.

2) He also us super fast as Peter claim this in their fight, and the power grid reflect it too which seems accurate.

3) He is stated peak human, then why is he stated to having powers and that they can be enhanced by Strange? He is also stated to been a Captain America failed SSS, which would make him more than peak human too. More proof he is not a mere peak human.

4) The guy durability shows he can survive attacks and heal injuries Peak Humans could never do.

These four main things prove without a doubt he is more than peak human, and nearly as fast as Peter which is very fast. I can understand there is not a whole lot of feats to go by here, but most Ultimate characters have very little feats due to its limited publish time and publish titles. However the evidence in MK appearance and showings is well superior to that of a normal human.

Also the enhanced stats Ronin did not beat Peter with his stats, he mange to nail Peter with a tranq dart out of many tranq dart attempts, and in this battle of comparison to Wolverine, Logan has no range tranq attacks. So not really a low showing for Peter. Also Peter 3 times manage to tag and web incap Ultimate Moon Knight even though his super speed is shown and proven.

Kraven is peak human too. This is what happen to him.

Moon Knight proven to be more than "peak human"

@luciustheeternal: I disagree with everything you said about moon knight for reasons stated. I'm not going to repeat myself though. All I'm going to say is we don't actually see him jump to his apartment or out the hospital window so those shouldn't count as strength feats. And ultimate Kraven sucks which is why he got one shotted...He has no pain tolerance feats at all.

@jashro44: it's fine, I just think he has great durability, and jumping ability for a human. His speed is documented and stated to be super human by bio and Peter statements. So tagging him with attacks and webbing Incap is proof enough in this debate to tag Wolverine from where I stand. Same for Electra who is also very fast and skilled.