#1 Edited by Strider92 (16731 posts) - - Show Bio

Ultimate Officio Assassinorum:

Spear (Culexus), Fon Tariel (Vanus), Eristrede Kell (Vindicare), The Garatine (Eversor), Asaid Virenus (Calidus), Legienstrasse (Maerorus)

Vs

Team Marvel/DC:

Namor (just out of water), Storm, Deathstroke, Magneto, Emma Frost (Pre-AvX), Invisible Woman, Colossus

Conditions:

  • Morals On
  • No Prep
  • Random Encounter
  • Standard Gear
  • 1 mile starting distance
  • Win by KO, Death or Incap

Location:

#2 Posted by Strider92 (16731 posts) - - Show Bio
#3 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92: Storm Solos. IW Solos. Magneto Rape Stomps.

#4 Posted by Strider92 (16731 posts) - - Show Bio
#5 Posted by kidman560 (7577 posts) - - Show Bio
#6 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: reasons?

OK.

  • IW can and has use her powers to make the team invisible. This will throw off some of the Assassins who have no gear other than 5 senses to detect with.
  • IW also has Invisible energy they cannot see nor dodge. She can BFR the group and they would never know it was coming.
  • She can and has use her power to Explode Heads if someone kills someone on her team.
  • She cannot be countered by Culexus because her power is not Warp, Reality Warping, Magic, nor Psychic.
  • IW also has a Force Field that will deflect any Vindicare shots and he will be too late probably to think Shield Breaker.

The we have Storm.

  • Storm can and has used Tornadoes to BFR and trash foes.
  • Lighting is faster than Assassins can dodge.
  • Her Snow Storm Powers have frozen entire groups solid.
  • Again, her power cannot be countered by Culexus.

Mags, need I say more?

  • This guy controls all the metal on the Assassins.
  • This includes their own weapons and he has reaction speed that surpass the assassins in feats.

Team really stomps here.

#7 Edited by Strider92 (16731 posts) - - Show Bio

Just throwing in a few things:

@cadencev2 said:

  • IW can and has use her powers to make the team invisible. This will throw off some of the Assassins who have no gear other than 5 senses to detect with.

Not true. Vindicare's can track heartbeats and electric impulses from a targets nervous system. Not that this would matter anyway as Sue's power is to bend light. Something the Spy Mask can see in a lot of spectrums. With a 1 mile starting distance I would have thought the Vindicare might be able to thin the herd a little.

Vindicare Assassins wear a Spy Mask, which is able to scan on a wide spectrum to pick out heat and energy sources over long distances.

-Spy Mask

@cadencev2 said:


  • IW can and has use her powers to make the team invisible. This will throw off some of the Assassins who have no gear other than 5 senses to detect with.
  • IW also has Invisible energy they cannot see nor dodge. She can BFR the group and they would never know it was coming.
  • She can and has use her power to Explode Heads if someone kills someone on her team.

Spear was created by the Culexus temple but is not a traditional assassin his official classification was Black Pariah. He is a counter psyker but also has the ability to do this which is of unknown origin but it effects psionics:

It is unknown if Spear was the product of a fluke birth, or the tamperings of Clade Culexus, but regardless he was able to turn a target's psionic force back upon itself, manifesting the target's own power to destroy itself.

-Nemesis

Not to mention Vindicare shell-breaker rounds could prove problematic as they go through Farseer psi-shields.

@cadencev2 said:


  • This guy controls all the metal on the Assassins.
  • This includes their own weapons and he has reaction speed that surpass the assassins in feats.

Magneto has been severely nerfed since AvX. Just like Cyclops optic blasts Magneto's powers are also on the fritz.

#8 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92: I made a post earlier, however it was deleted.

Anyway Shield Breaker cannot counter Magneto Magnetic Power.

Culexus power by Definition cannot affect or shut down Science Base powers of Mutants and IW.

Vindicare still cannot see if IW shuts off Optical Nerves.

Still no counter for freezing a state size target by Storm.

Team stomps.

#9 Edited by Strider92 (16731 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

Anyway Shield Breaker cannot counter Magneto Magnetic Power.

While i'm sure Magneto has the power to counter it, don't the assassins have the initial advantage? Ie: Mags being heavily de-powered now so his shield are a farcry from his full-power and the fact the Vindicare is capable of seeing and hitting him from far further away.

@cadencev2 said:

Culexus power by Definition cannot affect or shut down Science Base powers of Mutants and IW.

Again he may be a Culexus but his Black Pariah powers are separate from the Culexus ones as they were brought on by either natural mutation or scientific modification which leads me to believe that as in his bio it clearly states "Psionics" and not the "Warp" or "Psykers" seems to tell me that they should work. However as you think its a stomp in the their favor without it for the purposes of a fair fight i'll allow his abilities to effect them. Even though given his abilities they should work regardless.

@cadencev2 said:

Vindicare still cannot see if IW shuts off Optical Nerves.

True but:

1. Is that common practice for Sue? Seems she was doing that to Wolverine because she knew he could take it (ie: healing factor). I've never seen her do it to Spider-man despite the fact she had ample opportunity during Civil War. Are there any other instances of her doing this to someone without a healing factor?

2. How far does this ability extend? Ie: can she hit the Vindicare from the same distance he could hit her?

@cadencev2 said:

Still no counter for freezing a state size target by Storm.

Not within her Morals and wouldn't her doing that require her entering flight anyways? Basically painting a target on her back?

#10 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92: I will label the arguments in number order instead of quoting cause I am lazy :P

1) I did not know Mags was depowered. What are his limits now?

2) If the Null Field affect Marvel Team, then Assassins still have to deal with Storms Freezing Temperatures, Hurricane Winds, and F5 Tornadoes which cover such a large area for the Fields not to matter. Or Mags throwing large projectiles at them at massively Hypersonic speeds (if his limits allow this still). Or IW lifting heavy area covering objects to chuck. Peter can add to this fun.

3) Ultimate Sue done this as well to the Marvel Zombies. Is it in character? No. However how many time does Darkness kill people from the inside? Not alot, yet it is always there to abuse. I am looking at character, and Sue is smart enough to try this when the apparent facts of various seeing modes counter her Invisibility.

4) If I was writing the X-Men, I would think it very plausible for the Super Tactical Genius of Magneto to lend his Anti Magnetic powers to repel any attack at his biggest hitter.

Thats just me assuming base on his past showings of tactical brilliance.

#11 Posted by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

Is it just me or does it look like everyone here should be susceptible to Magneto?

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#12 Posted by Strider92 (16731 posts) - - Show Bio

1) I did not know Mags was depowered. What are his limits now?


I'll post some scans later.


2) If the Null Field affect Marvel Team, then Assassins still have to deal with Storms Freezing Temperatures, Hurricane Winds, and F5 Tornadoes which cover such a large area for the Fields not to matter. Or Mags throwing large projectiles at them at massively Hypersonic speeds (if his limits allow this still). Or IW lifting heavy area covering objects to chuck. Peter can add to this fun.


I'll look into rebalancing this.


3) Ultimate Sue done this as well to the Marvel Zombies. Is it in character? No. However how many time does Darkness kill people from the inside? Not alot, yet it is always there to abuse. I am looking at character, and Sue is smart enough to try this when the apparent facts of various seeing modes counter her Invisibility.


Actually thats not true. Jackie has killed people from the inside a LOT and not just fodder but established characters like Aphrodite IX and Sovereign. It is well within Jackies character to use this technique and he has consistently performed it regardless of circumstances which is not the case for Sue who has only done it once when pushed and knowing her opponent could take the punishment. When I get home I gaurantee I can find at least 5 circumstances of this (there are more but those are the only ones I can guarantee as my Darkness scans have got scattered).

#13 Posted by Lady_Liberty (8281 posts) - - Show Bio

Hrm. My first impression is how vulnerable team two is to the Vindicare due to the starting distance.

#14 Posted by ChaosMarvel (997 posts) - - Show Bio

Hrm. My first impression is how vulnerable team two is to the Vindicare due to the starting distance.

At first I thought the same as Cadence but then I saw the starting distance. I agree with what your saying a vindicare at that distance would be dangerous. If one can hit a target from 5miles away while falling through the air then stationary from a mile should be a cakewalk. Especially as one stationary assassin held off an entire Eldar attack force including warlocks. With that special ammunition and the speed of the bullet I don't think anyone can react to the vindicare in time.

#15 Posted by Lady_Liberty (8281 posts) - - Show Bio

@chaosmarvel: Indeed. Especially because team two has no idea they are facing a sniper. By the time they figure it out it is likely to be too late for several of them.

The problem is actually the Vindicare himself. If he targets the right people immediately he could cripple the other team, but how does he know who to target?

#16 Edited by ChaosMarvel (997 posts) - - Show Bio

@lady_liberty: I think someone posted above that the Vindicares spy mask can track energy signatures wouldn't that light up someone like Magneto or Sue like a beacon?

If it doesn't then yes if the vindicare doesn't shoot the right people the assassins are dead but if he decks out Mags or Storm it could spell trouble. Especially if the Callidus has time to use her neural disrupter.

#17 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@chaosmarvel: @lady_liberty: Vindicare should not matter. His rounds are at best Mach 5. Magneto has reacted to much faster speeds. Also Magneto always leaves his Field on Regardless in character.

#18 Edited by ChaosMarvel (997 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Has he ever reacted to something moving at mach 5 that is designed specifically to penertrate energy shields when his powers are faulty? Seems unlikely he'd be in a position to do that. Even if he could that wouldn't save his team-mates.

#19 Edited by Lady_Liberty (8281 posts) - - Show Bio
#20 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Has he ever reacted to something moving at mach 5 that is designed specifically to penertrate energy shields when his powers are faulty? Seems unlikely he'd be in a position to do that. Even if he could that wouldn't save his team-mates.

Shield Penetration is Design to by Pass Chaos, Energy, Psy Shields. Magneto specifically targets the Metal however creating Anti Magnetic energy, it should still repel it.

@cadencev2: Where do you get mach five?

Base on the fastest bullet we have today are Mach 5 only.

#21 Posted by Lady_Liberty (8281 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Sure but this is the absolute best gun a million planet empire can produce in the year 40,000. They're not limited to what we can do with one planet in the year 2,000.

#22 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Sure but this is the absolute best gun a million planet empire can produce in the year 40,000. They're not limited to what we can do with one planet in the year 2,000.

Let me ask you this. Do you have proof it can go faster? If not.....

Also the Leman Russ Battle Tank is leagues inferior to our Modern M1A1 Tanks in Armor and Functions.

Little facts of life. Is 40K super advance? Yes. Is it a "Declining" Technology state? Yes.

#23 Edited by Strider92 (16731 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:


Also the Leman Russ Battle Tank is leagues inferior to our Modern M1A1 Tanks in Armor and Functions.

This I disagree with. The other two points are valid though.

The only place a Leman Russ might be inferior to our modern tanks is armor and thats debatable. Modern tanks have 600mm armor roughly correct? Which compared with a Leman Russ who only has 150mm seems like a huge decline however when you consider what its made of (Plasteel/Ferro Steel hybrid) makes it arguably more durable when you consider that Plasteel is used in conjunction with ceramite to create Terminator armor. It can even take shots from 40k heavy weapons and shrug them off (depending on the weapon of course). Thats not something our current tanks would be capable of.

What functions? As far as i'm aware a Leman Russ is famed for being able to maneuver with incredible speed for its size. A properly tuned Leman Russ can reach speeds of 70mph whereas an M1A1's top speed (after asking google lol) is about 42mph.

The Leman Russ is also noted for its ability to turn on a dime and its ability to reverse direction in only seconds remains a signature move for the vehicle.

-Codex Imperial Guard

Combine that with the standard armament for a Leman Russ which is a Battle Cannon, Front mounted Las-cannon and dual heavy bolters it has a big edge in weaponry. I don't see anything that a M1A1 can do that a Leman Russ cannot replicate or surpass.

#24 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:


Also the Leman Russ Battle Tank is leagues inferior to our Modern M1A1 Tanks in Armor and Functions.

This I disagree with. The other two points are valid though.

The only place a Leman Russ might be inferior to our modern tanks is armor and thats debatable. Modern tanks have 600mm armor roughly correct? Which compared with a Leman Russ who only has 150mm seems like a huge decline however when you consider what its made of (Plasteel/Ferro Steel hybrid) makes it arguably more durable when you consider that Plasteel is used in conjunction with ceramite to create Terminator armor. It can even take shots from 40k heavy weapons and shrug them off (depending on the weapon of course). Thats not something our current tanks would be capable of.

What functions? As far as i'm aware a Leman Russ is famed for being able to maneuver with incredible speed for its size. A properly tuned Leman Russ can reach speeds of 70mph whereas an M1A1's top speed (after asking google lol) is about 42mph.

The Leman Russ is also noted for its ability to turn on a dime and its ability to reverse direction in only seconds remains a signature move for the vehicle.

-Codex Imperial Guard

Combine that with the standard armament for a Leman Russ which is a Battle Cannon, Front mounted Las-cannon and dual heavy bolters it has a big edge in weaponry. I don't see anything that a M1A1 can do that a Leman Russ cannot replicate or surpass.

BS. I read in novels where Orks and Nid Gaunts have torn through Leman Russ Armour. Things that Power Armour resist with ease >_> and these were Imperial Guard Novels and Short Stories.

#25 Edited by Strider92 (16731 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Well Orks as we both know are reality warps. If they believe hard enough they can cut through power-armor with a pencil. Orks cutting through isn't that surprising. Nid-Gaunts on the other hand seems very very unlikely. Whats your source on the Gaunt feat? I assume we're talking hormagaunts here and not termagants right?

#26 Posted by Lady_Liberty (8281 posts) - - Show Bio

@lady_liberty said:

@cadencev2: Sure but this is the absolute best gun a million planet empire can produce in the year 40,000. They're not limited to what we can do with one planet in the year 2,000.

Let me ask you this. Do you have proof it can go faster? If not.....

Do you have proof it cannot go faster? There is no reason for one of the most expensive bullets in the galaxy to be limited to the abilities of a culture 38,000 years ago. The very concept is silly; the Imperium can provide teleportation, faster than light travel, medical care that allows some to live to three hundred years or more, shields that shunt attacks into another dimension, and so forth.

The most common weapon in the Imperial Guard is the Lasgun. It has a powersource that we cannot replicate today; the powerpack is completely superior to anything we can build. The rifle itself is also superior to today's weaponry, seventy five laser shot per power pack compared to 30 in most of today's assault rifles. Then the laser beam itself is of course pinpoint accurate (its a laser), and hits with enough force to cause flesh on the enemy to explode.

At the most basic level the technology is superior. While the Imperium might be in decline they are in decline from an era where men strode the universe like gods. Their decline is entire orders of magnitude better than our best.

#27 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

Do you have proof it cannot go faster? There is no reason for one of the most expensive bullets in the galaxy to be limited to the abilities of a culture 38,000 years ago. The very concept is silly; the Imperium can provide teleportation, faster than light travel, medical care that allows some to live to three hundred years or more, shields that shunt attacks into another dimension, and so forth.

The most common weapon in the Imperial Guard is the Lasgun. It has a powersource that we cannot replicate today; the powerpack is completely superior to anything we can build. The rifle itself is also superior to today's weaponry, seventy five laser shot per power pack compared to 30 in most of today's assault rifles. Then the laser beam itself is of course pinpoint accurate (its a laser), and hits with enough force to cause flesh on the enemy to explode.

At the most basic level the technology is superior. While the Imperium might be in decline they are in decline from an era where men strode the universe like gods. Their decline is entire orders of magnitude better than our best.

Yes I do have proof. The most advance Bullet projectiles we have today are only Mach 5 tops.

Since you and no one has proof they are faster in 40K, then its blind assumption to suggest they are faster. With that logic we can assume a Vindicare Sniper Round can blow up a moon. What proof is there to say it cannot?

Just because they advance in 40K time setting, does not mean they are so damn advance in everything. These poeple still use Bayonets and Swords in worlds. Some Planets are Feudal Dark Ages in Tech!

@cadencev2: Well Orks as we both know are reality warps. If they believe hard enough they can cut through power-armor with a pencil. Orks cutting through isn't that surprising. Nid-Gaunts on the other hand seems very very unlikely. Whats your source on the Gaunt feat? I assume we're talking hormagaunts here and not termagants right?

Read 13th Penal Legion. I believe it was mention by Kain in there as well shows a Tyranid Warrior taking out a Tank.

Look here is both your arguments summed up... They are so advance in technology. BS. Heat Seeking Miisiles are a rare concept and anything Computer guided a lost art to basic forces!

Look I suggest going on Heresy-Online.et or even Dakka Dakka forums and read the arguments of 40K vs Moden World. We would no **** stomp a Man to Man, Jet to Jet, or Tank to Tank warfare. All they beat us in is Numbers and Ships.

#28 Edited by Strider92 (16731 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:


Read 13th Penal Legion. I believe it was mention by Kain in there as well shows a Tyranid Warrior taking out a Tank.

Ah so it wasn't a Gaunt then? It is possible for a Warrior to take a tank out if it has the right upgrades. Any idea what this one was packing?

@cadencev2 said:


Look here is both your arguments summed up... They are so advance in technology. BS. Heat Seeking Miisiles are a rare concept and anything Computer guided a lost art to basic forces!

I never said their tech was super-advanced. What I said was given the material available to create 40k tanks. Stuff that can and has taken hits from stuff outside of what our known metal is capable of doing I don't see why they should not be more durable.

@cadencev2 said:


Look I suggest going on Heresy-Online.et or even Dakka Dakka forums and read the arguments of 40K vs Moden World. We would no **** stomp a Man to Man, Jet to Jet, or Tank to Tank warfare. All they beat us in is Numbers and Ships.

I'll take a look round. Saw a post from Warseer on this subject a while back and then general consensus was:

Imperial Guard>>Our modern day military.

#29 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:


Read 13th Penal Legion. I believe it was mention by Kain in there as well shows a Tyranid Warrior taking out a Tank.

Ah so it wasn't a Gaunt then? It is possible for a Warrior to take a tank out if it has the right upgrades. Any idea what this one was packing?

@cadencev2 said:


Look here is both your arguments summed up... They are so advance in technology. BS. Heat Seeking Miisiles are a rare concept and anything Computer guided a lost art to basic forces!

I never said their tech was super-advanced. What I said was given the material available to create 40k tanks. Stuff that can and has taken hits from stuff outside of what our known metal is capable of doing I don't see why they should not be more durable.

@cadencev2 said:


Look I suggest going on Heresy-Online.et or even Dakka Dakka forums and read the arguments of 40K vs Moden World. We would no **** stomp a Man to Man, Jet to Jet, or Tank to Tank warfare. All they beat us in is Numbers and Ships.

I'll take a look round. Saw a post from Warseer on this subject a while back and then general consensus was:

Imperial Guard>>Our modern day military.

Well on Heresy-online the consensus was Our Military >>> to Imperial Guard Ground Forces. This is even numbers of course.

Anyway, I think your all rating them to highly on no real evidence.

Stats and Bios from Forge World on Leman Russ and Chimera. Nothing at all more advance than what we have now.

Hell we can Build Rhinos already lol.

#30 Edited by Strider92 (16731 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: How can we build a Rhino without Plasteel, Ceramite or adamantium? We can build something that looks like a Rhino but will it have the same defensive or offensive qualities? Of course not because those metals don't exist in real life. (that video is still awesome though!)

By that logic cosplayers are building Space Marine power armor despite the fact its made of polysterine and plastic instead of ceramite.

#31 Posted by Lady_Liberty (8281 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Yes I do have proof. The most advance Bullet projectiles we have today are only Mach 5 tops.

That isn't proof Cadence. It isn't even evidence, or even logical. Its like the Romans saying no one could ever build a better sword then them, because they were the most dominate empire of their time.

Technology in the 40k universe has some highs and lows. The lows tend to be low but the highs are VERY high.

Since you and no one has proof they are faster in 40K, then its blind assumption to suggest they are faster. With that logic we can assume a Vindicare Sniper Round can blow up a moon. What proof is there to say it cannot?

Because that's several orders of magnitude outside his feats?

You're claiming that the very best of an empire which teleports, travels faster than light, uses adamantium to build equipment, has a laser rifle as a basic weapon, has regular human soldiers with plasma weaponry, and so forth somehow cannot build a better rifle?

Their best is far, far far above our best because they can draw about the resources of a million worlds and what is left of mankinds technological peak.

Just because they advance in 40K time setting, does not mean they are so damn advance in everything. These poeple still use Bayonets and Swords in worlds. Some Planets are Feudal Dark Ages in Tech!

Sure, there are places of very low technology in the Imperium. Just as there are places of very low technology on earth.

But the resources and technology of the Temple assassins don't have any more to do with a feudal world than the NAVY Seals have to do with tribes in the Amazon.

#32 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@lady_liberty: The point is Im not Blindly Assuming, I am using the worlds fastest bullet as a basis rather than blindly assuming as a point of argument.

@cadencev2: How can we build a Rhino without Plasteel, Ceramite or adamantium? We can build something that looks like a Rhino but will it have the same defensive or offensive qualities? Of course not because those metals don't exist in real life. (that video is still awesome though!)

By that logic cosplayers are building Space Marine power armor despite the fact its made of polysterine and plastic instead of ceramite.

Read the second page. Its just Ceremic Plasteel. Big freaking deal, most RPGs can Penetrate that!