Ultimate Green Goblin VS Wolverine

........................................................ You're starting to sound ridiculous. It's been clearly explained that most of Sabretooth's over Wolverine were on a Wolverine who was less skilled and less experienced and he has now gotten past those things to make Sabretooth look like a joke. Since you're so obsessed with consistency, Wolverine has more occasions where he has shrugged off or gone unfazed by Spider-Man's hit than he's been knocked out by the.

Or you are so embedded in your decision that you fail to understand my argument and it's complexity. Many people like yourself misunderstand the point I am trying to argue, so I will give you more time to overlook my debating points. Saying that I am using circular logic by saying GG wins due to his stats mixed with his powers then okay. But if all you can provide for Wolverine is his most high end feats while ignoring any other feats that say otherwise, then why even try debating you? You simply say I am wrong by saying I am lowballing Wolverine when your doing the exact contrast, your putting him up on a pedstal, and you ignore anything short of his highest feats.

True, I do look at consistency, and I do think it takes A LOT more hits from Spiderman to do any real damage. But someone stronger than Spiderman and having control of Fire easily has enough to KO Wolverine, to say otherwise sounds absurd.

Goblin isn't going to be able to get that many hits on Wolverine due to Logan's superior speed, and Wolverine has consistently soaked up things just as hot and even hotter than Goblin's fire. The fire won't be much of an advantage.

Lol. See, all that right there, is you arguing with yourself. You create an argument, the version you can best contend with (while ignoring the real issues on the table) then essentially argue against yourself. Debating against that is an exercise in futility.

@esquire really did say it best in his retorts to your comments. Beautifully put really. He burned your approach to the ground. Without reproach. Go back, address what he has to say, then start from there and you might begin to actually engage in a real debate herein.

You have not shown Logan's superior speed.

@cable_extreme: Kaine (who is physically superior to Spider-Man), has Praised Logan on his combat speed, Peter questioned his speed compared to Logan in their Graveyard fight. Wolverine tagged Speed Demon whereas Peter had difficulty doing so even with his Spider Sense. Logan was also able to sucker punch Spider-Man so fast his Spider-Sense didn't have time to register the threat (and ended up with Peter KOed, in the Dark Reign ASM issues, Peter, during his battle with Daken was astonished by his speed and somewhat of hard time keeping up, and compared it to that of Wolverine's speed. Those feats, and dodging the superhumanly fast X-23 while holding back, dodging bullets in a weakened state, dodging missiles, etc are all better than anything Goblin has ever shown. Besides, Goblin became largely ineffective when he fought Ultimate Captain America (someone with great combat speed). Wolverine is superior to Goblin combat speed wise.

Did you completely ignore what I typed, it seems you would rather dodge everything. I am not arguing with myself, I have not contradicted myself. The real issue is that you are putting Wolverine on a pedestal and ignoring anything short of his best feats. That is not arguing with myself, and you falsely identified my argumentative method. I have gone back and forth with Esquire, as well with a lot of people, as far as I know, I have replied to everything, if I have not, link it to me and i will.

Im sorry, but when has Norman Osborn become a retard again? The same guy who out smarts the Super Villain teams as head honcho, lead strikes on SHIELD, and taken down all that has been thrown at him? He never really lost a fight except to Spider Man once in death of SM and Iron Man with prep. All the other times he simply depowered down and became KOed.

Yeah as Goblin he will just go retard against Wolverine... out of character :/ but he it suits your argument lol.

Oh I do not know...

Strength and Speed

We know GG is insane Strong.

Gallery

Scan 1-2: GG sees Harry on TV calling him out. Rages out and KOs Spider Man in one blow!

Scan 3: Easily catches and holds the Spider Man Strong Tentacles of Doc Ock.

Scan 4-5: Smashes through Doc Ock's Tentacles that easily overpower Peter.

Scan 6-8: Beats Hob Goblin to Death with a few blows!

Scan 9: Overpowers Peter with ease.

Scan 10: Craters the earth with a haymaker.

This applies to leaping as well.

Gallery

Scan 1-3: Insane fast leap feats to get around the area and catch Spidey in the air.

Scan 4-5: Jumps from the Ocean Floor to the Copters in the air!

Scan 6-7: Jumps onto a airborne SHIELD Helicarrier above a city!

The highlighted ones are some. I mean, he does regularly tags Ultimate Peter. I highly doubt Wolverine is faster than Ultimate Peter.

GG may not be faster overall than Wolverine, but he does not need to be when he gets a hold of him or uses his Building Busting blasts. Or simply sets his body on fire making CC a literal hell.

I do not know who is Low Balling harder now. Wolverine Fans or GG fans.....

By killing Ultimate Spiderman. I want him to show Wolverine is capable of speed like that as well. GG has taken Ultimate Spiderman out of the air while he was traveling a hundred miles an hour give or take, with his spidey senses on. That is an incredible show of speed. All Wolverine08 has shown is Wolverine missing all of his shots on Peter. tagging a speedster that he predicted the location of while missing the majority there (which doesn't mean he is faster than the speedster). And a couple scans that show average level bullet timer speed feats.

As for Wolverine Ko'ing Peter, that is not a consistent feat, or I could just use the one shot Ko of Wolverine. Being surprised by speed does not mean that he is faster than Spiderman, nor is X-23 as fast as Spiderman. Nearly every street level fighter can dodge bullets with ease. Batman even has speed feats that are comparable with Wolverine. And your holding onto the Ultimate Captain America fight which is a low showing for GG. I could say Wolverine was highly ineffective vs Daredevil. You are idolizing Wolverine's best feats while using the lowest of GG.

Tagging Speed Demon is a better feat than Goblin has ever accomplished. Did you even read the sentence about Spider-Man having somewhat of a hard time keeping up with Daken's speed, and compared it to that of Wolverine's speed?

Wolverine was moving so fast in short bursts that Spider-Man even questioned how if he was faster than him. Don't know why @cable_extreme keeps on discounting it.

Well because in the box before it, it said that Spiderman could break Wolverines neck. That is not a reliable source to have your whole argument based on.

Wolverine has had his whole body (including his neck) crushed by being run over by a car, and was literally up in a few seconds. Find a better point buddy.

@wolverine08:

Tagging Speed Demon is a better feat than Goblin has ever accomplished. Did you even read the sentence about Spider-Man having somewhat of a hard time keeping up with Daken's speed, and compared it to that of Wolverine's speed?

So if I were to show you Superman having trouble tagging the flash, then show you Deathstroke doing it, it would mean Deathstroke is comparable to Superman? No it would not.

Deathstroke does those things due to his enhanced brain. You've even said so. Lowball Wolverine's feat in a better way man.

Adamantium cannot be broken by Spiderman........ The fact that the scan says Spiderman can SNAP his neck is completely WIS.

@cable_extreme: While I think scans and second hand knowledge are a good start, look through the books before you try to come off as a definitive debator in a particular thread. While I won't get into the majority of it, 616 Spidey vs Ult Spidey is something you need to brush up on. Supersoldier is working on the general stuff, so I won't get involved there.

@cadencev2: He doesn't fight like a "retard." He fights like his dinger is the biggest and pisses with the biggest range. He also is the sort that feels if he and God were walking toward each other, God needs to step out of the way. Osborn comes in and overwhelms. And while he may be able to do that to teenage Pete, Logan is gonna make him pay for it.

Also You are amping Goblin up. He lost five times. The first when the coptor rifleman shot him up and he missed his last leap against Pete. He fell in the water and decided that he couldn't be bothered to come back for more. I assume the injury had something to do with this decision. The second time he emo-ed out when Harry turned on him and he passed out as the Oz formula berzerked. Loss to a weak emotional state.

The third time he went up against Stark and lost. Also lets play pretend. Even if Stark didn't have his deux ex machina pew pew beam dealie. Once Thor came back from dealing with Electro it would have been a bad day for Osborn and pals. And even though the fight didn't "end" Captain America beat the brakes off of him. Pete looked like he Ko'ed him for 8 pages. I think Giant man crushed him in a therapy session. So on and forth.

He depowered again when he killed his boy. Emotions work against him and he forfeited. And then lastly Pete and Goblin died in a climatic battle (though I wouldn't be surprised if they rezzed him to take on Miles.) Goblin has a track record of beating the crap out of Pete, and pushing around Ock, who also put up a decent fight, and not much else.

Lastly out of character is shooting fireballs. When he takes a few hits and starts to lose, he doesn't leap to safety and spam fireballs. He comes back swinging. He probably isn't going to think he is on the ropes with Logan until he can't leap away and spam. And at that point it should all be downhill for him.

I am not lowballing Wolverine's feats, I am saying that tagging a speedster due to predicting his future location is not in itself a speed feat, as shown with Deathstroke who tagged the flash by predicting his future location. I used an exact comparison with your arguement. I am not lowballing any feats here, I am saying ti was Wolverine's skill, and not so much his speed.

@risingbean: Said:

While I think scans and second hand knowledge are a good start, look through the books before you try to come off as a definitive debator in a particular thread. While I won't get into the majority of it, 616 Spidey vs Ult Spidey is something you need to brush up on. Supersoldier is working on the general stuff, so I won't get involved there.

I know enough about the characters.

Wolverine doesn't have an enhanced brain like Stroke so him tagging a speedster was mainly due to speed/reflexes.

One mistake by the writer. Wolverine slightly keeping pace with Spider-Man, and even making him think he could be possibly faster than is consistent with their tussles over the years.

The Speedster is also not as fast as the Flash, and Wolverine is smart.

So now you've gone from saying that Wolverine tagging Speed Demon isn't a speed feat to saying it's a speed feat, but not that that impressive. For someone who monologues about consistency, you're very inconsistent. Wolverine tagged Speed Demon, plain and simple, and that's a better speed feat than Goblin has ever accomplished.

LOL the last part of this is wrong, and I agree with that, however I cannot argue the rest. This is true.

However in straight fights, he lost only twice. The rifle harming him is not really a lost since he learned to cut his loses there and that was before his major upgrades in following arcs. Also yes, Thor would wreck him, Iron could of as well if he went all out.

@mitran: Said:

Killing Ultimate Spider-man? Come on, he didn't blitz Pete to death. Peter had already taken a bullet to the stomach and had been fighting for hours against GG and the rest of the Six. That's not all that impressive at all, considering Pete was literally collapsing at the end of the battle.

The fact that GG consistently tags Ult Spiderman, your acting like Ult Spiderman is slower than Wolverine.

Then you need to take into account Ult Spidey is lower on the totem then 616. Ult Goblin wouldn't like fighting 616 Pete because he wouldn't be half as successful. Also the fact has been shown over and over. Ult Goblin is not too hot at taking on skilled foes. Logan. Yeah, he is about as skilled as they come.

You cannot cherry pick out of a scan that has WIS in it. If a writer thinks Wolverine's neck can be snapped, how much do you think he knows about Wolverine?

This coming from the guy who was willing to acknowledge that Wolverine had been taken out by Daredevil throughout nerve strike even though it goes against his extensive history. Like @super_soldierxii said, you're circular logic isn't working, and you're now just arguing with yourself.

tell me, do you know the speed the speed demon was going? Was he going faster than a bullet? I am not saying it isn't a good feat, but it doesn't put him above the speed demon in speed. The scan even says Wolverine predicted his movements, and he was running in a straight line.

Stop being ridiculous. Almost all speed feats where a person tags someone doesn't give you a speed at which they where going at. Speed Demon has been noted to move at the speed of sound. I've never said that Wolverine is faster than Speed Demon, he just used his speed/reflexes to tag him. It's better than Goblin has ever done.

I said it was a low feat every time i brought it up, your acting like I am trying to use it to say Wolverine sucks or something, i am not. I am merely using it to point out that your using all of Wolverine's high feats without acknowledging his low ones. You are looking at all of Wolverine's high feats and looking at the low feats of GG as well.

Goblin has taken a swinging spiderman out of the air with his spidey senses on, I think that is a fair comparison. He also didn't miss like 10 times.

You are completely right about Ultimate Spiderman, however, this was not their only meeting. Also CA is a low showing for GG. If you would prefer me using low showings for Wolverine I can if you wish.

If you do decide to use Wolverine's low showings, I'd bet they'd go against his consistent history. Goblin has a history of struggling with skilled and fast fighters in melee combat.

You mean one showing?

@cable_extreme:

Did you completely ignore what I typed,

No. It's just that there was no real content in what you had typed. As I had iterated, you were arguing with yourself ... as you had not directly addressed anything I said, only what YOU said I had said.

it seems you would rather dodge everything.

What' there to dodge? You're laying down blanket comments without foundation in fact, and without concrete reference either toward what I actually say, specific feats, showings and etc.

I am not arguing with myself,

In essence, yes, yes you are. Because you're certainly not addressing anything I've said or argued.

I have not contradicted myself. The real issue is that you are putting Wolverine on a pedestal and ignoring anything short of his best feats.

Oh? Which feats, exactly, do I ignore? Another generalization without backing it up.

That is not arguing with myself,

Yes it is. Again, you make a comment not founded in fact, nor was it specified.

and you falsely identified my argumentative method. I have gone back and forth with Esquire, as well with a lot of people, as far as I know, I have replied to everything, if I have not, link it to me and i will.

I have read your responses. That is the very reason I take exception with you and call your arguments circular and without reason.

So GG couldn't just use his building busting fire power to scorch Cap? It was most likely a fight to make people like ult CA. That is what they usually do with villains.

Yup. It was the one occasion in Goblin's history that he'd gone up against a skilled and fast fighter and he looked like a clown. Unless we different from him in multiple showings, I'd say his performance against Ultimate Captain America is consistent.

If we wanted to get nitpicky, we could say Goblin lost to extenuating circumstances. I agree with you in that he is a beast. But the big problem is that short of bullying Pete he didn't do too much. My main argument though is that he isn't going to see a 5'3" Canadian and be afraid. By the time he is, he cuts his losses and flees (lets hope Logan doesn't stalk him) or he continues to fight and likely loses. I don't doubt once in a while he'll take Logan down. It just won't be consistent.

@risingbean:

He doesn't fight like a "retard." He fights like his dinger is the biggest and pisses with the biggest range. He also is the sort that feels if he and God were walking toward each other, God needs to step out of the way. Osborn comes in and overwhelms.

That made me chuckle.

A+

@super_soldierxii: said:

No. It's just that there was no real content in what you had typed. As I had iterated, you were arguing with yourself ... as you had not directly addressed anything I said, only what YOU said I had said.

I addressed the issue.

What' there to dodge? You're laying down blanket comments without foundation in fact, and without concrete reference either toward what I actually say, specific feats, showings and etc.

Wouldn't this statement be self contradictory and ironic?

In essence, yes, yes you are. Because you're certainly not addressing anything I've said or argued.

Nor have you, you simply fed me your negative comments about what I have said and proved nothing in the process.

Oh? Which feats, exactly, do I ignore? Another generalization without backing it up.

Go back to the 65th post on the second page and start there, you show scans of Wolverine knocking out the hulk ect. That is his highest of feats, yet you leave out anything less than his highest of showings.

Yes it is. Again, you make a comment not founded in fact, nor was it specified.

Neither is making the claim that I am arguing with myself, we each have different views on the real issue, so we will not reach the same verdict on what we consider relevant.

I have read your responses. That is the very reason I take exception with you and call your arguments circular and without reason

Fact to back up that statement?

@mitran: said:

He doesn't use building busting fire in the middle of 1v1 combat, he goes melee. He'll use fireballs and lances, but they're not really game-changers. In that fight, he also actually did try to use a fire lance, which Cap blocked with his shield. It was also not inconsistent with Cap's feats.

Which I do not understand why GG wouldn't just make himself aflame so that when CA attacked he would hurt himself more than GG unless he attacked with his shield, which would leave him open. Agian, this is a low showing, I am five post away from posting Wolverine getting KO'ed from Spiderman.

@wolverine08: said:

Yup. It was the one occasion in Goblin's history that he'd gone up against a skilled and fast fighter and he looked like a clown. Unless we different from him in multiple showings, I'd say his performance against Ultimate Captain America is consistent.

I can provide you well more than one showing of Wolverine looking like a clown.