#151 Posted by Wolverine08 (47862 posts) - - Show Bio

@cable_extreme: My point is that the guy went up against the Hulk in his first appearance he's supposed to be extremely durable . 2. This Goblin isn't faster than Wolverine.

#152 Posted by _HYDRA_ (158 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@cadencev2: I have "100s" of showings that are just as impressive as everyone claims. And why are you talking about 80s Wolverine. His healing factor and durability aren't the same as it is now. He's become a "beast".

But still not good enough to win this match, due to the extreme speed and strength advantages, as well as the versatility.

Most of wolverines best feats are old imo.

#153 Posted by tigerxbunny (5 posts) - - Show Bio

@cable_extreme: My point is that the guy went up against the Hulk in his first appearance he's supposed to be extremely durable . 2. This Goblin isn't faster than Wolverine.

You're using a high end showing and attempting to say "thats that". How about how Wolverine has been KO'd by Spider Man, Captain America, Mister X, etc.?

#154 Posted by Wolverine08 (47862 posts) - - Show Bio

@tigerxbunny: Wolverine has more showings where he's shrugged off or gone unfazed by Spider-Man's hits then he's been knocked out by them, Cap has only knocked Wolverine out when he snuck up behind him and hit him in the back of his head with the shield when Logan was exhausted, I'll give you Mr. X. You're trying to pass off low end showings as the norm buddy.

#155 Posted by tigerxbunny (5 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't consider those low end showings, I consider them average. Low end showing is Wolverine getting KO'd by henchmen.

Wolverine tanking class 100 punches, IMO, is a VERY inconsistent showing. He has been taken out, disabled, knocked out, by many things weaker than city/island/planet busting level strikes. And I think that the more recent World War Hulk vs. Wolverine kinda shows how the original meeting was bad writing made to boost up Wolverine's image for his solo series. Its also more recent.

#156 Posted by _HYDRA_ (158 posts) - - Show Bio

@tigerxbunny: Not to mention he's been k.o'd by a woman shooting a gun which would be a low showing.

#157 Edited by RisingBean (5750 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Ok you and a small handful. Happy, Seebee? At least we got the ball rolling again.

Also you say Goblin was epic in all five arcs? I somewhat disagree.

Goblin went down like a chump. Stabbed by a teenager. Low showing. Doesn't make him less cool.

I still think Logan takes a majority. Long, hard bloody battles. But majority.

Online
#158 Posted by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@risingbean: You mean stabbed by a Teenager after being shot to hell by Anti Vehicle guns from attack choppers?

After he overdose on OZ Formula?

After he beat Spidey down silly?

Yeah, he was stabbed in the spine by a piece of metal, then Osborn Unaffected sees Harry Osborn as the attacker which then causes GG Oz formula to go all wacky!

Not low showing at all ;) This was only a second arc GG. This was before his power boost in Ultimate 6 Arc where he did not rely on Oz Formula to maintain his transformation.

So what else you got?

#159 Posted by Wolverine08 (47862 posts) - - Show Bio

So people want to use Logan's low end feats to judge him, but only Green Goblin's high end feats count? Ridiculous.

#160 Posted by jashro44 (29275 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@cable_extreme: I'm fine with you think Norman takes the majority as he does have a chance but using sabretooth isn't the best way to gauge. Creed is an entirely different opponent.

Read what Granite soldier put, he understood what I was trying to say.

Granite soldier said wolverine outlasted sbaretooth....You are saying something completely different.

@wolverine08 said:

Batman beats Bane, but struggles against Joker (who is VASTLY less skilled and stronger than Bane). I guess Batman shouldn't be able to beat anyone better than Joker..............

Batman should not beat half the foes he has when he struggles with Joker, Harley, Penguin, Mr. Freeze, Scarecrow, Riddler, Two Face, do I really need to go on!?

Yet at other times he has bested Karate Kid, Deathstroke, and even made Specter cry with a kick!

It retarded to use those feats. They are clearly PIS compared to his "AVERAGE" of Low and High Showings.


A lot of those batman examples are really out of context.....

#161 Posted by RisingBean (5750 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Indeed that was the fight. The sequence was a bit wonky to me too. Taking on S.H.I.E.L.D. then amping up on Oz and beating Spidey. Then the attack by Harry being the straw that broke pierced the Goblin's back. Although the idea that emotional trauma was what made the Oz formula go out of whack instead of it being really convenient timing is something I like.

I don't argue that every time Goblin returned he was better then before. But he wasn't all that durable in his first showing or two except against blunt trauma. Sure he got to the point of healing from bullets quick, but claws will create bigger wounds and will on clean connects dismember and decapitate.

Online
#162 Posted by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: @wolverine08: @risingbean: I agree his first showings were a little off, however GG took a MISSSILE in the face in the second arc before being hit by Harry's attack.

Forgot to add that part.

@granitesoldier I wanted to add this in terms of attrition view. The fact is GG has NEVER been defeated by force except in the last arc. Wolverine has been beaten by force many times. Low Showings or high, he has been.

GG on the other hand losts are listed below.

  • 1st Arc: He ran away.
  • 2nd Arc: He had a bad reaction with his Mental State and Oz Overdose.
  • 3rd Arc: He was beaten by Iron Man using a Genetic Destabilizer Ray.
  • 4th Arc: Beaten by Turning Human after his grief of killing Harry.
  • 5th Arc: The only time killed by Physical Force.

Lets look again at the Durability and Healing of GG.

Durability

Scan 1: Attack Choppers with Anti Vehicle Machine Guns.

Scan 2-3: Shot by Anti Vehicle Machine Guns again. Again not even Phased!

Scan 4: GG with a special collar that lobotomizes any person trying to use their powers. Added to this he was being hit with Tranqs and ends with a Giant Man Pimp Hand!

Scan 5: Assault Rifle fire.

Scan 6-8: GG free falls from a Sky Scraper. Look at the damage he does here when he hits. He simply bounces off and turns back into Norman to keep off SHIELD's radar.

Scan 9-12: GG gets up twice from all out Human Torch Nova attacks.

Scan 13: Hit by a Missile in the face. Still chugging.

Scan 14: GG is shot to hell by SHIELD. He is also shot with special Gentic Disrupting guns by Spidey and Shadow Cat. None of this phases Osborn.

Scan 15: Stabbed in the spine by a piece of metal, no probs, though seeing his attacker as his son makes the formula unstable after this, the attack itself meant nothing.

Scan 16-17: Hit by 9 ton truck hauling it! No probs for GG.

Scan 18-19: Attacked by Hawkeye, Captain America, Iron Man, and Nick Furry at the same time. This was after his Genetics was in flux from a Iron Man special prep beam. Still lives with all this.

Scan 20: GG tanks with ease Iron Man Repulsar Blast.

GG gets hit by SHIELD's Hulk Buster Unit repeatedly as well Anti Tank Missiles. All to no affect.

Updated this. This is all GG tanking as much and more than Sabertooth ever has!

Also we have GG attacks which are Bolstered by Strength and Fire.

Strength and Speed

We know GG is insane Strong.

Scan 1-2: GG sees Harry on TV calling him out. Rages out and KOs Spider Man in one blow!

Scan 3: Easily catches and holds the Spider Man Strong Tentacles of Doc Ock.

Scan 4-5: Smashes through Doc Ock's Tentacles that easily overpower Peter.

Scan 6-8: Beats Hob Goblin to Death with a few blows!

Scan 9: Overpowers Peter with ease.

Scan 10: Craters the earth with a haymaker.

The GG has beaten Hob Goblin to Death with a few blows, over power Doc Ock twice, and KOed Spider Man with a single blow!

GG uses fire with his fist in many showings to add to this.Add in range...

.

Scan 1: GG Blows apart tanks.

Scan 2: GG Blows away Security Blast Doors from a SHIELD Meta Human Prison.

Scan 3-4: GG Vaporizes more Hulk Buster armoured SHIELD with a blast.

Scan 5-6: GG again blows apart his Meta Human prison.

Scan 7: GG blows away Doc Ock's Tentacles.

Scan 8-9: GG Attacks Copters with Plasma Shields for distractions.

Scan 10: Burns school down attacking Spidey.

Scan 11: We find out GG fire is plasma.

His fire projection is so powerful, he even destroyed a portion of the Ultimates Base when he raged out.

Well GG has more than the tools to win this with ease.

#163 Posted by Wolverine08 (47862 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

"With ease"? No. I think myself, @granitesoldier, and others have explained why Wolverine could win this. Nobody is going to win this "with ease". That sounds utterly asinine.

#164 Edited by Angryprune (742 posts) - - Show Bio

Can Osborn permanently put down wolverine?

#165 Edited by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: not realy. Both have the ability to one shot each other. Wolvie via decapitation and Osborn via building blasting fire plasma. Key thing to me is it is way easier to nuke from a range than decap a power house like GG.

#166 Posted by Wolverine08 (47862 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Eh, I personally see this being a long and bloody fight.

#167 Edited by Cable_Extreme (10547 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@cable_extreme said:

@jashro44 said:

@cable_extreme: I'm fine with you think Norman takes the majority as he does have a chance but using sabretooth isn't the best way to gauge. Creed is an entirely different opponent.

Read what Granite soldier put, he understood what I was trying to say.

Granite soldier said wolverine outlasted sbaretooth....You are saying something completely different.

@cadencev2 said:

@wolverine08 said:

Batman beats Bane, but struggles against Joker (who is VASTLY less skilled and stronger than Bane). I guess Batman shouldn't be able to beat anyone better than Joker..............

Batman should not beat half the foes he has when he struggles with Joker, Harley, Penguin, Mr. Freeze, Scarecrow, Riddler, Two Face, do I really need to go on!?

Yet at other times he has bested Karate Kid, Deathstroke, and even made Specter cry with a kick!

It retarded to use those feats. They are clearly PIS compared to his "AVERAGE" of Low and High Showings.


A lot of those batman examples are really out of context.....

I am not saying something different. You are not understanding my point. It is irrelevant if Wolverine has beaten Sabertooth lately. I'm using the point that Wolverine has gotten beaten by him before. Granite soldier made the point perfectly, there are high showings, then there are average showing, and then there are low. We need to equalize them. I am not saying Sabertooth beats him now, like you keep acting like I am. I pointed out the fact that he has lost to Sabertooth in the past.

#168 Posted by OreoAssassin (7571 posts) - - Show Bio

You guys do not want to start with @cadencev2. Ultimate Green Goblin lol.

#169 Edited by Esquire (3909 posts) - - Show Bio

@cable_extreme said:

I am not saying something different. You are not understanding my point. It is irrelevant if Wolverine has beaten Sabertooth lately. I'm using the point that Wolverine has gotten beaten by him before. Granite soldier made the point perfectly, there are high showings, then there are average showing, and then there are low. We need to equalize them. I am not saying Sabertooth beats him now, like you keep acting like I am. I pointed out the fact that he has lost to Sabertooth in the past.

As far as I'm concerned, this simply isn't a valid way to debate. Comic books in general and the Marvel Universe in specific tell a linear narrative. (There are exceptions, things like House of M or Age of X where the whole thing goes sideways, but that's irrelevant since it always gets reset again.) The characters move through their personal timelines in a progressive fashion, and they learn and grow throughout that progression. It's what makes stories compelling and characters worth reading about. The undeniable fact is, Wolverine has improved immensely since his inception as a character. He's better than he was 10 or 20 years ago. Sabretooth used to beat him up every year on his birthday, and there was nothing he could do about it because he wasn't a good enough fighter. But the last 5 times he's encountered Sabretooth, he's absolutely humiliated and obliterated Creed. How is this possible? How did Logan go from the victim to the victor? (No pun intended.) There's an obvious answer here: He got better. He improved. He grew. He is now obviously and doubtlessly Sabretooth's superior. At one time it was the opposite, and then for a while they were comparable, but now Wolverine has proved quite definitively that he is better than Sabretooth at what he does, which is h2h fighting.

Oh, and is your point really that Sabretooth can hurt Wolverine, Goblin is stronger, so Goblin can hurt Wolverine? Because Sabretooth has claws, oftentimes adamantium ones, and that's how he hurts Wolverine. Logan wasn't being KO'd by his maybe 2-tonner punches, he wass being cut to pieces like Wolverine will do to Goblin here. Although in reality Creed has hardly ever tagged him over their last several encounters, so he hasn't been hurting Logan, anyway.

And while we're here, I'd like to take a moment to encourage you to be more internally consistent.

@cable_extreme said:

It is irrelevant if Wolverine has beaten Sabertooth lately. I'm using the point that Wolverine has gotten beaten by him before. Granite soldier made the point perfectly, there are high showings, then there are average showing, and then there are low. We need to equalize them.

You are absolutely correct that we should debate with the true character, and not an aberrant version created solely on high- or low-end feats. Every character should be understood in light of all of his showings, with the exception of those which are obviously out of sync with what has been consistently shown, especially when there are obvious plot- or writer-related reasons for the inconsistent showings.

But your very point is belied by your debate in this thread. If you are truly in favor of averaging a character's showings, then how can you consider any valid showing, (or 5 showings, in this case), to be irrelevant? That shows a blatant disregard for the very crusade you've been expounding upon. I get what you're saying. I know you're in favor of averaging a character's showings. But you haven't been doing that. You've been picking out lower showings, showings from a past Wolverine who is clearly inferior to the current Wolverine being used in this battle, and you're arbitrarily claiming that somehow your version of Wolverine is representative of the true Wolverine. You aren't averaging showings, you're ignoring consistent ones that smash your point to pieces.

#170 Posted by Wolverine08 (47862 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire said:

@cable_extreme said:

I am not saying something different. You are not understanding my point. It is irrelevant if Wolverine has beaten Sabertooth lately. I'm using the point that Wolverine has gotten beaten by him before. Granite soldier made the point perfectly, there are high showings, then there are average showing, and then there are low. We need to equalize them. I am not saying Sabertooth beats him now, like you keep acting like I am. I pointed out the fact that he has lost to Sabertooth in the past.

As far as I'm concerned, this simply isn't a valid way to debate. Comic books in general and the Marvel Universe in specific tell a linear narrative. (There are exceptions, things like House of M or Age of X where the whole thing goes sideways, but that's irrelevant since it always gets reset again.) The characters move through their personal timelines in a progressive fashion, and they learn and grow throughout that progression. It's what makes stories compelling and characters worth reading about. The undeniable fact is, Wolverine has improved immensely since his inception as a character. He's better than he was 10 or 20 years ago. Sabretooth used to beat him up every year on his birthday, and there was nothing he could do about it because he wasn't a good enough fighter. But the last 5 times he's encountered Sabretooth, he's absolutely humiliated and obliterated Creed. How is this possible? How did Logan go from the victim to the victor? (No pun intended.) There's an obvious answer here: He got better. He improved. He grew. He is now obviously and doubtlessly Sabretooth's superior. At one time it was the opposite, and then for a while they were comparable, but know Wolverine has proved quite definitively that he is better than Sabretooth at what he does.

And while we're here, I'd like to take a moment to encourage you to be more internally consistent.

@cable_extreme said:

It is irrelevant if Wolverine has beaten Sabertooth lately. I'm using the point that Wolverine has gotten beaten by him before. Granite soldier made the point perfectly, there are high showings, then there are average showing, and then there are low. We need to equalize them.

You are absolutely correct that we should debate with the true character, and not an aberrant version created solely on high- or low-end feats. Every character should be understood in light of all of his showings, with the exception of those which are obviously out of sync with what has been consistently shown, especially when there are obvious plot- or writer-related reasons for the inconsistent showings.

But your very point is belied by your debate in this thread. If you are truly in favor of averaging a character's showings, then how can you consider any valid showing, (or 5 showings, in this case), to be irrelevant? That shows a blatant disregard for the very crusade you've been expounding upon. Jashro gets what you're saying. He knows you're in favor of averaging a character's showings. But you haven't been doing that. You've been picking out lower showings, showings from a past Wolverine who is clearly inferior to the current Wolverine being used in this battle, and you're arbitrarily claiming that somehow your version of Wolverine is representative of the true Wolverine. You aren't averaging showings. You're ignoring consistent ones that smash your point to pieces.

Perfectly said man!

#171 Edited by Cable_Extreme (10547 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire: said :

As far as I'm concerned, this simply isn't a valid way to debate. Comic books in general and the Marvel Universe in specific tell a linear narrative. (There are exceptions, things like House of M or Age of X where the whole thing goes sideways, but that's irrelevant since it always gets reset again.) The characters move through their personal timelines in a progressive fashion, and they learn and grow throughout that progression. It's what makes stories compelling and characters worth reading about. The undeniable fact is, Wolverine has improved immensely since his inception as a character. He's better than he was 10 or 20 years ago. Sabretooth used to beat him up every year on his birthday, and there was nothing he could do about it because he wasn't a good enough fighter. But the last 5 times he's encountered Sabretooth, he's absolutely humiliated and obliterated Creed. How is this possible? How did Logan go from the victim to the victor? (No pun intended.) There's an obvious answer here: He got better. He improved. He grew. He is now obviously and doubtlessly Sabretooth's superior. At one time it was the opposite, and then for a while they were comparable, but know Wolverine has proved quite definitively that he is better than Sabretooth at what he does.

And while we're here, I'd like to take a moment to encourage you to be more internally consistent.

He may be better skilled wise, but his adamantium durability remains the same. I never said Sabertooth was better. I am talking about the amount of force it takes to defeat Wolverine. When he is on the Avengers or X-men, his durability is completely different than it is in his solo work. There are scans of him getting defeated by Spiderman via KO, and of Daredevil nerve striking him ect.. I am not saying that works now, but when you compare those feats to his solo work by taking blows from WWH without getting KO'ed, there is a level of inconsistency. The green Goblin is stronger than Spiderman, and around the same speed. He can use fire, and has a healing factor. Are you trying to tell me Wolverine will win? The answer is no, he is not fast enough. This Green Goblin will burn him as well as damage him immensely each hit. He could also simply stay out of reach and fire blast him. He doesn't have to engage him up close. Green Goblin is out of Wolverine's league.

#172 Edited by Cable_Extreme (10547 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire: said:

You are absolutely correct that we should debate with the true character, and not an aberrant version created solely on high- or low-end feats. Every character should be understood in light of all of his showings, with the exception of those which are obviously out of sync with what has been consistently shown, especially when there are obvious plot- or writer-related reasons for the inconsistent showings.

But your very point is belied by your debate in this thread. If you are truly in favor of averaging a character's showings, then how can you consider any valid showing, (or 5 showings, in this case), to be irrelevant? That shows a blatant disregard for the very crusade you've been expounding upon. I get what you're saying. I know you're in favor of averaging a character's showings. But you haven't been doing that. You've been picking out lower showings, showings from a past Wolverine who is clearly inferior to the current Wolverine being used in this battle, and you're arbitrarily claiming that somehow your version of Wolverine is representative of the true Wolverine. You aren't averaging showings, you're ignoring consistent ones that smash your point to pieces.

5 showings out of more than a thousand comics is not even close to be consistent. We are using current wolverine? No we are not, we are using Wolverine with healing factor, meaning any time he had a healing factor in the past ect... We have to use consistent showings.

#173 Posted by Wolverine08 (47862 posts) - - Show Bio

@cable_extreme:

Wolverine has withstood immense amounts of heat before. The fire isn't a 100% guaranteed success.

#174 Edited by Cable_Extreme (10547 posts) - - Show Bio

@cable_extreme:

Wolverine has withstood immense amounts of heat before. The fire isn't a 100% guaranteed success.

Mixed with immense strength, fast enough speed to defeat spiderman, and super durability/ healing factor, yes it is.

#175 Posted by Wolverine08 (47862 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@cable_extreme:

Wolverine has withstood immense amounts of heat before. The fire isn't a 100% guaranteed success.

Mixed with immense strength, fast enough speed to defeat spiderman, and super durability/ healing factor, yes it is.

Ultimate Spider-Man is vastly weaker than his 616 counterpart. Wolverine has the better healing factor, vastly better fighting skills, and superior speed. It could go either way, but I'm leaning towards him.

#176 Posted by Cable_Extreme (10547 posts) - - Show Bio

@cable_extreme said:

@wolverine08 said:

@cable_extreme:

Wolverine has withstood immense amounts of heat before. The fire isn't a 100% guaranteed success.

Mixed with immense strength, fast enough speed to defeat spiderman, and super durability/ healing factor, yes it is.

Ultimate Spider-Man is vastly weaker than his 616 counterpart. Wolverine has the better healing factor, vastly better fighting skills, and superior speed. It could go either way, but I'm leaning towards him.

And no, Ultimate Spiderman is not vastly weaker than 616.He does not have superior speed. Maybe better skill, but not fighting ability. You talking about a guy that can jump over building fairly easily, one that is capable of defeating Ult Spiderman and keep up.

#177 Edited by Wolverine08 (47862 posts) - - Show Bio

@cable_extreme said:

@wolverine08 said:

@cable_extreme said:

@wolverine08 said:

@cable_extreme:

Wolverine has withstood immense amounts of heat before. The fire isn't a 100% guaranteed success.

Mixed with immense strength, fast enough speed to defeat spiderman, and super durability/ healing factor, yes it is.

Ultimate Spider-Man is vastly weaker than his 616 counterpart. Wolverine has the better healing factor, vastly better fighting skills, and superior speed. It could go either way, but I'm leaning towards him.

And no, Ultimate Spiderman is not vastly weaker than 616.He does not have superior speed. Maybe better skill, but not fighting ability. You talking about a guy that can jump over building fairly easily, one that is capable of defeating Ult Spiderman and keep up.

Wolverine has tagged Speed Demon, kept such an even pace with 616 Spider-Man (who is physically superior to Ultimate Spider-Man, has dodged ten sniper shooting at him at once, dodged Iron Man's repulsor blasts, nonchalantly out races cars, etc) that he thought he was faster than him, danced around X-23 (who has superhuman speed) while holding back, dodged repeated rounds of machine gun fire while in a weakened state, astonished Kaine ( 616 Spider-Man's physically superior clone) with his speed etc. He's faster than Goblin.

And yes, he's a vastly more skilled fighter than Goblin has ever shown, and sports the better HF. Which is why I lean towards him.

#178 Posted by Esquire (3909 posts) - - Show Bio

@cable_extreme said:

He may be better skilled wise, but his adamantium durability remains the same. I never said Sabertooth was better. I am talking about the amount of force it takes to defeat Wolverine.

Not really true. His durability is, on average, a lot better over the last 10-15 years than it was 25 or 30 years ago. His modern incarnation has better feats than his classic one. You can chalk that up to writer inconsistency if you want, but you can't really disregard all of the recent showings. If you want an in-universe explanation, pretty much all mutant powers grow with use, and he's been using that body pretty hard for the last few decades.But his durability showing have gotten better since the days Sabretooth could beat him consistently.

And again, Sabretooth doesn't beat Wolverine through force. Never has. He beats him, (or used to, anyway), by a combination of fighting skill, claws, healing factor, and knowing Wolverine's tendencies. The only one of those Goblin has is a healing factor, and seeing as Creed's has been stated to be stronger than Logan's, Norman really doesn't compare in that regard.

When he is on the Avengers or X-men, his durability is completely different than it is in his solo work. There are scans of him getting defeated by Spiderman via KO, and of Daredevil nerve striking him ect.. I am not saying that works now,

Then why are you saying it at all? Seems rather pointless to even bring it up if it's not going to work. And I can get you scans of Spider-Man going to town on Wolverine's skull with all he's got and being astonished that he is simply unable to KO Logan, as well as roughly a dozen reasons that the DD nerve strike should be disregarded as woefully inconsistent.

but when you compare those feats to his solo work by taking blows from WWH without getting KO'ed, there is a level of inconsistency.

He fought WWH in an event book with a team of X-Men, so it's not like that's only in his solo series. But I agree, there is a level of inconsistency to Wolverine's feats, as there is with every character. However, when facing high-strength characters such as Hulk or Thing, he has consistently been able to take their shots. Wolverine has almost never been KO'd, and when he is there is almost always context involved, such as when Cap was able to do it in Enemy of the State. Yes, he has some inconsistencies. But his consistent level of durability is "damn near unkillable." Even in team books.

The green Goblin is stronger than Spiderman, and around the same speed.

I'm going to question you on the speed. Outside of fighting Spider-Man, does he have any quantifiable speed feats? Simply fighting effectively against a character doesn't mean you have the same speed. Thor fight Silver Surfer, but the Thunder God is massively slower. Superman fights Mongul, but Superman is absurdly faster. Sentry fought Hulk, but Hulk isn't comparable in speed. Comics often downplay the greater speed of a character in order to make fights interesting. Does Goblin have any speed feats, other than the characters he's fought? And Wolverine has fought 616 Spider-Man multiple times, as well as fighting Kaine and Gorgon. He's even tagged Speed Demon, a bona fide speedster. I'm not willing to concede a speed advantage at this point. And as for strength, he ignored a punch to the head by Kaine a few months ago, even though Kaine's Other power is supposed to make him a 25-tonner. He consistently shrugs off blows from powerhouses, so strength should realistically not be a dealbreaker.

He can use fire, and has a healing factor.

Wolverine has a pretty good track record against fire, explosions, energy blasts, and the like. He has a much superior healing factor, and Goblin's HF has never had to deal with anything like the damage Wolverine can dish out. He's never gotten his head or neck stabbed, and he's never had to deal with repeated stabs and slashed over a prolonged battle. Goblin's a brawler, he'll let Logan get in close. And those claws will make him regret it.

Are you trying to tell me Wolverine will win? The answer is no, he is not fast enough.

You have no speed feats to put Goblin above Kaine or 616 Spider-Man, who Wolverine has kept up with just fine.

This Green Goblin will burn him as well as damage him immensely each hit.

He couldn't tag Ultimate Cap, the only skilled opponent he's ever faced. Logan is more skilled than Steve, and has weaponry far more suited to taking Goblin down. Whenever Wolverine has been hit with a punch near or above Goblin's level, it hasn't damaged him immensely. He's really good against blunt trauma. And his healing factor eats fire for breakfast.

He could also simply stay out of reach and fire blast him. He doesn't have to engage him up close.

Since he's never really shown any inclination to do that, and has instead brawled repeatedly, (even against Ultimate Cap after it should have been clear that brawling was getting him nowhere), so in a vast, vast majority of encounters, he's going to engage up close. But even if he does try to pelt from a distance, this is an urban area with tons of cover. Wolverine can do a ninja-disappear and just stealth around for a while until he gets the drop on Goblin. I can't think of Norman displaying any enhanced senses, although I could be wrong about that.

Green Goblin is out of Wolverine's league.

Wow, a super-strong guy who also happens to be super hot. Kind of like a poor man's Red Hulk. Who...Wolverine did pretty well against, even though he was holding back to get information.

So against a guy dozens of times stronger than Goblin, who also gets hotter the angrier he gets, Wolverine dodged his blows and put himself in a position to decapitate. He didn't kill him 'cause he wanted information, but he has no such stipulations about killing Norman. When Rulk got his hands on Wolvie, he took out the eyes. Grappling with the guy is a bad idea. So then Red Hulk threw him several blocks, which he shrugged off and used the environment to his advantage. He then tanks a hit from Red She Hulk without getting KO'd. This is the kind of damage soak he consistently demonstrates against high tiers. The heat didn't bother him, the damage didn't bother him, the being thrown across town didn't bother him. Why should Norman fare so much better?

5 showings out of more than a thousand comics is not even close to be consistent. We are using current wolverine? No we are not, we are using Wolverine with healing factor, meaning any time he had a healing factor in the past ect... We have to use consistent showings.

I see no reason not to fall back to the Wolverine most recently seen with a healing factor, i.e. the Wolverine of a couple months ago. That seems most in keeping with the Battle Forum rules and the comics themselves. Again, comics are a linear narrative, and Wolverine's consist average of feats has been greatly raised over the last 15 years. Disregarding that is profoundly unintuitive, and would make finding a consistent baseline essentially impossible. I can ask the OP, but not using Modern Wolverine, for lack of a better term, seems foolhardy and nonsensical.

.

#179 Posted by PastePotPete (967 posts) - - Show Bio

the morals are on ? wolverine is going to look like the road runer or elmer fudd he is will get lasered scorched electrocuted if he cannot decapitate or cut off some limbs .. morals on... wolverine has no chance .. green goblin all day long

#180 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (7059 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire said:

@cable_extreme said:

I am not saying something different. You are not understanding my point. It is irrelevant if Wolverine has beaten Sabertooth lately. I'm using the point that Wolverine has gotten beaten by him before. Granite soldier made the point perfectly, there are high showings, then there are average showing, and then there are low. We need to equalize them. I am not saying Sabertooth beats him now, like you keep acting like I am. I pointed out the fact that he has lost to Sabertooth in the past.

As far as I'm concerned, this simply isn't a valid way to debate. Comic books in general and the Marvel Universe in specific tell a linear narrative. (There are exceptions, things like House of M or Age of X where the whole thing goes sideways, but that's irrelevant since it always gets reset again.) The characters move through their personal timelines in a progressive fashion, and they learn and grow throughout that progression. It's what makes stories compelling and characters worth reading about. The undeniable fact is, Wolverine has improved immensely since his inception as a character. He's better than he was 10 or 20 years ago. Sabretooth used to beat him up every year on his birthday, and there was nothing he could do about it because he wasn't a good enough fighter. But the last 5 times he's encountered Sabretooth, he's absolutely humiliated and obliterated Creed. How is this possible? How did Logan go from the victim to the victor? (No pun intended.) There's an obvious answer here: He got better. He improved. He grew. He is now obviously and doubtlessly Sabretooth's superior. At one time it was the opposite, and then for a while they were comparable, but now Wolverine has proved quite definitively that he is better than Sabretooth at what he does, which is h2h fighting.

Oh, and is your point really that Sabretooth can hurt Wolverine, Goblin is stronger, so Goblin can hurt Wolverine? Because Sabretooth has claws, oftentimes adamantium ones, and that's how he hurts Wolverine. Logan wasn't being KO'd by his maybe 2-tonner punches, he wass being cut to pieces like Wolverine will do to Goblin here. Although in reality Creed has hardly ever tagged him over their last several encounters, so he hasn't been hurting Logan, anyway.

And while we're here, I'd like to take a moment to encourage you to be more internally consistent.

@cable_extreme said:

It is irrelevant if Wolverine has beaten Sabertooth lately. I'm using the point that Wolverine has gotten beaten by him before. Granite soldier made the point perfectly, there are high showings, then there are average showing, and then there are low. We need to equalize them.

You are absolutely correct that we should debate with the true character, and not an aberrant version created solely on high- or low-end feats. Every character should be understood in light of all of his showings, with the exception of those which are obviously out of sync with what has been consistently shown, especially when there are obvious plot- or writer-related reasons for the inconsistent showings.

But your very point is belied by your debate in this thread. If you are truly in favor of averaging a character's showings, then how can you consider any valid showing, (or 5 showings, in this case), to be irrelevant? That shows a blatant disregard for the very crusade you've been expounding upon. I get what you're saying. I know you're in favor of averaging a character's showings. But you haven't been doing that. You've been picking out lower showings, showings from a past Wolverine who is clearly inferior to the current Wolverine being used in this battle, and you're arbitrarily claiming that somehow your version of Wolverine is representative of the true Wolverine. You aren't averaging showings, you're ignoring consistent ones that smash your point to pieces.

Kudos. Couldn't agree with you more.

#181 Posted by Esquire (3909 posts) - - Show Bio

the morals are on ? wolverine is going to look like the road runer or elmer fudd he is will get lasered scorched electrocuted if he cannot decapitate or cut off some limbs .. morals on... wolverine has no chance .. green goblin all day long

Goblin's not going to be able to tag Wolverine. He couldn't tag Ultimate Cap, the only skilled character he's ever faced, and Logan is more skilled than Steve is. And Wolverine has easily the speed, skill, weaponry, and ruthlessness to decapitate. He's got the durability to tank most of what Goblin is packing, and the speed and skill to dodge it. Wolverine 8/10.

#182 Posted by Cable_Extreme (10547 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire said:

@pastepotpete said:

the morals are on ? wolverine is going to look like the road runer or elmer fudd he is will get lasered scorched electrocuted if he cannot decapitate or cut off some limbs .. morals on... wolverine has no chance .. green goblin all day long

Goblin's not going to be able to tag Wolverine. He couldn't tag Ultimate Cap, the only skilled character he's ever faced, and Logan is more skilled than Steve is. And Wolverine has easily the speed, skill, weaponry, and ruthlessness to decapitate. He's got the durability to tank most of what Goblin is packing, and the speed and skill to dodge it. Wolverine 8/10.

This green Golbin was easily able to tag ultimate spiderman.

#183 Edited by Cable_Extreme (10547 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@cable_extreme said:

@wolverine08 said:

@cable_extreme said:

@wolverine08 said:

@cable_extreme:

Wolverine has withstood immense amounts of heat before. The fire isn't a 100% guaranteed success.

Mixed with immense strength, fast enough speed to defeat spiderman, and super durability/ healing factor, yes it is.

Ultimate Spider-Man is vastly weaker than his 616 counterpart. Wolverine has the better healing factor, vastly better fighting skills, and superior speed. It could go either way, but I'm leaning towards him.

And no, Ultimate Spiderman is not vastly weaker than 616.He does not have superior speed. Maybe better skill, but not fighting ability. You talking about a guy that can jump over building fairly easily, one that is capable of defeating Ult Spiderman and keep up.

Wolverine has tagged Speed Demon, kept such an even pace with 616 Spider-Man (who is physically superior to Ultimate Spider-Man, has dodged ten sniper shooting at him at once, dodged Iron Man's repulsor blasts, nonchalantly out races cars, etc) that he thought he was faster than him, danced around X-23 (who has superhuman speed) while holding back, dodged repeated rounds of machine gun fire while in a weakened state, astonished Kaine ( 616 Spider-Man's physically superior clone) with his speed etc. He's faster than Goblin.

And yes, he's a vastly more skilled fighter than Goblin has ever shown, and sports the better HF. Which is why I lean towards him.

Are you trying to say Wolverine is the same speed as 616 spiderman? Goblin is faster, stronger, has flame powers, skin very durable with healing factor, can leap over buildings fairly easily. Wolverine will get KO'ed

#184 Posted by Esquire (3909 posts) - - Show Bio

@cable_extreme: Then why couldn't he tag Ultimate Cap, who's a far better analogue to Wolverine?

#185 Posted by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: @super_soldierxii: @esquire: Ok some things here I like to adress.

1) when the hell has Sabertooth tank Hulk Buster Firepower, Missiles to the face, or taken on the whole team of Avengers by himself? WHEN!? Ultimate GG Healing Factor with his Durability is better.

2) Green Goblin is very fast. I shown this in his speed against Doc Ock and Spider Man. He also has insane speeds in body, the jumping of the Ocean Floor (Couple hundred feet) to over 100 feet in the sky proves this! The Speed and Momentum needed to leap from Ocean Floor and Open Sky is not strength, it is speed as well. We can also forget I guess all the times Goblin snatched Spidet out of the air while he is Web Slinging, something Bullet Timers fail to do. Or how Goblin KOed Spiderman in one blow with his sense going off and everything!

He is quick indeed.

Wolverine on the other hand been proven too slow against the likes of Kaine or Spider Man. He is quick, but more to his skill to keep up, not raw speed at all.

3) Ultimate Spider Man is in no way "Inferior" to 616 by leagues. He has shown all the same speed against Mach 3+ bullets, 9+ ton strength, and durability. In fact IMO Ultimate spider Man has the best Durability feat which he died from. Is 616 Peter have the best High Ends? Duh.... Does Peter have incarnations that are ranged from 9 tons to 25 tons? Duh.... Is his 616 Peter overall better feats with his 1000 comics worth of feats to Ultimate Peter's mere 150 comics? Of course. Yet on average they are very much on the same level period!

#186 Posted by Esquire (3909 posts) - - Show Bio

Are you trying to say Wolverine is the same speed as 616 spiderman? Goblin is faster, stronger, has flame powers, skin very durable with healing factor, can leap over buildings fairly easily. Wolverine will get KO'ed

He could make the claim using the same logic you're using. Ultimate Green Goblin can fight effectively against Ultimate Spider-Man, so obviously he must have the same speed. Wolverine can fight effectively against Kaine and Spider-Man, so obviously he must have the same speed.

I don't believe that to be sound logic, but that's the argument I've been seeing for Goblin's speed.

#187 Posted by Esquire (3909 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

1) when the hell has Sabertooth tank Hulk Buster Firepower, Missiles to the face, or taken on the whole team of Avengers by himself? WHEN!? Ultimate GG Healing Factor with his Durability is better.

Goblin is significantly more durable than Sabretooth, I will readily admit that. But at least the way I interpret the scans, most of his damage soak is due to the fact that he's so tough, these things aren't really hurting him that much. I've never claimed Sabretooth is more durable. That would be foolishness. But I haven't seen Norman reattaching limbs or regenerating damage to his brain, for example, which is what Sabretooth's healing factor allows him to do. And the advantage Wolverine has is that his claws will let him ignore Goblin's pure durability, so he can carve up the villain the same way he does Sabretooth. And since UGG doesn't have pure healing feats on the level that Sabretooth does, it should take him down just as effectively.

2) Green Goblin is very fast. I shown this in his speed against Doc Ock and Spider Man.

Fighting an opponent doesn't automatically give you equal speed. Goblin is fast, certainly, but Wolverine has fought effectively against fast people as well.

He also has insane speeds in body, the jumping of the Ocean Floor (Couple hundred feet) to over 100 feet in the sky proves this! The Speed and Momentum needed to leap from Ocean Floor and Open Sky is not strength, it is speed as well.

Yeah, but it's travel speed. The Hulk does this all the time, and Wolverine's danced around him lots of times.

We can also forget I guess all the times Goblin snatched Spidet out of the air while he is Web Slinging, something Bullet Timers fail to do. Or how Goblin KOed Spiderman in one blow with his sense going off and everything!

Which is really impressive. But Spider-Man was an amateur with no training. He had some skill based on his experiences, but he had basically no training. Goblin's fights against Spidey are offset by the fact that he couldn't tag Ultimate Cap in their fight. Wolverine is a lot more comparable to Ultimate Cap than he is to Spider-Man, in the fact that he's a hyperskilled martial artist who can dance around powerful opponents on a consistent basis.

And he's oneshotted Speed Demon, which has to be at least as impressive as snatching Spider-Man.

He is quick indeed.

Agreed.

Wolverine on the other hand been proven too slow against the likes of Kaine or Spider Man. He is quick, but more to his skill to keep up, not raw speed at all.

But regardless, he's been able to keep up with them. He's fought well against Gorgon, who is freakishly fast. His combat speed is good enough to consistently fight well against characters with significant amounts of superspeed. And unlike Goblin, he has benchmark feats like bullet dodging, speed blitzing, and disappearing in front of people.

3) Ultimate Spider Man is in no way "Inferior" to 616 by leagues.

This one doesn't really apply to me, so I'm not going to address it. You're more or less correct.

#188 Edited by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire: Again all good points, but I like to point out on healing, GG has Healing feats. He openly bleeds from Piercing damage, then next scan, he is fine and whole. This been shown every times he bleeds all over from stabs, and bullets. He has healing to easily survive claws and can always put distance with his leaps.

People seem to forget that Norman Osborn as the Goblin has planned and out maneuvered Nick Fury of all people! He will not stand there to be slashed to bits. He has put distance between foes to heal up or counter attacks.

Wolverine can do nothing if Goblin leaps away and lays down his best attacks from range.

#189 Posted by Esquire (3909 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: I didn't mean to imply that he doesn't have a healing factor at all, he certainly does have a pretty decent one. But Wolverine has tons of experience fighting people with healing factors. If Goblin isn't going down by stabs and slashes, he'll go to the neck and head, like he does with Sabretooth, Hulk, Red Hulk, etc. It's only going to take him seconds to figure out that's his best option.

And if Goblin leaps away, what's to stop Logan from going stealth mode among the buildings and cars and cover, using his enhanced senses to track Norman, and then ambushing him with 6 claws to the head when the time is right? It's not like stealth is out of character for Wolverine, and he's not a stupid fighter who's going to stand there and let Goblin roast him until his healing factor gives out.

#191 Posted by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire said:

@cadencev2: I didn't mean to imply that he doesn't have a healing factor at all, he certainly does have a pretty decent one. But Wolverine has tons of experience fighting people with healing factors. If Goblin isn't going down by stabs and slashes, he'll go to the neck and head, like he does with Sabretooth, Hulk, Red Hulk, etc. It's only going to take him seconds to figure out that's his best option.

And if Goblin leaps away, what's to stop Logan from going stealth mode among the buildings and cars and cover, using his enhanced senses to track Norman, and then ambushing him with 6 claws to the head when the time is right? It's not like stealth is out of character for Wolverine, and he's not a stupid fighter who's going to stand there and let Goblin roast him until his healing factor gives out.

Norman has stealthed Peter Parker with his Spider Sense as well Stealth SHIELD when on the run 3 separate times. :/ Norman is no stranger to it either.

Anyway Wolverine can certainly win, I think Range and brute power over Skill and Close range.

LOL your MOMMA!

#192 Posted by Esquire (3909 posts) - - Show Bio

Norman has stealthed Peter Parker with his Spider Sense as well Stealth SHIELD when on the run 3 separate times. :/ Norman is no stranger to it either.

Anyway Wolverine can certainly win, I think Range and brute power over Skill and Close range.

And Norman can certainly win, I think that skill and lethality beat range and brute power when Wolverine has great showings against that sort of power and ways to deal with range. But I think that you and I have just about run out of points to make to each other, haha. Good discussion.

#193 Posted by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire said:

@cadencev2 said:

Norman has stealthed Peter Parker with his Spider Sense as well Stealth SHIELD when on the run 3 separate times. :/ Norman is no stranger to it either.

Anyway Wolverine can certainly win, I think Range and brute power over Skill and Close range.

And Norman can certainly win, I think that skill and lethality beat range and brute power when Wolverine has great showings against that sort of power and ways to deal with range. But I think that you and I have just about run out of points to make to each other, haha. Good discussion.

Always bro :)

#194 Posted by GraniteSoldier (10843 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

The reason I say Wolverine gets the endurance edge is because essentially any character that has a healing factor has shown that it can get over-taxed (except maybe the Hulk, but that also escalates with his rage). Wolverine has shown that his can be over taxed, or over strained, if needed to continually heal from long, sustained punishment. This might be a little bit of ABC logic, but I think the same principle would apply to Green Goblin. Blunt strikes such as punches, and other similar strikes don't seem to tax healing factors nearly as much as say a stab or deep cut. The logic would be because you are getting into organs and deep tissues which would normally be fatal without the healing factor.

So, what I am saying, is that Wolverine, blow for blow, is likely to take less damage and therefore less healing taxation than Green Goblin. Not only do to his incredibly high healing factor, but due to his adamantium skeleton which will reduce blunt force impact. The real taxing on Wolverine will come from Goblin's fire attacks. But, how likely is Osbourne to sit at a distance and do the entire fight at range like Iron Man and blast Wolverine to bits? I don't think that's very in character. Osbourne is smart, but he revels in overpowering his enemies as well.

On the flip side, even if he were to realize that's his only hope and were to do so, how likely is Wolverine to stand there and let him? Wolverine has experienced combat for over 100 years, he's going to dodge, cover, and hide. Then maneuver under cover where Goblin can't see him to close the distance again. And if he can't, certainly at some point such an energy exertion (like I said this fight could go for days) would tax Goblin's endurance. Even as a Super Saiyan, repeated Kamehameha's will wear down Goku (different Universe, different rules I know, but I think the point is valid).

If Goblin takes to range, and stays at range, I say it's a stalemate. I don't think Wolverine would stay on the street and let Goblin blast him. Take the fight to the subways were Goblin can't use his insane leaping and maintain distance. But you could argument Goblin would be too smart to follow. So if this becomes an attempt at a range fight, stalemate. If it mostly stays up close, Wolverine (barely) after a several long, bloody days. But even then Goblin still has the chance to win even up close, I just see slightly more wins in Wolverine's favor.

#195 Edited by Super_SoldierXII (7059 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

When the hell has Sabertooth tank Hulk Buster Firepower, Missiles to the face,

Emphasis please on Ultimate Hulk Buster Firepower. We're talking Ultimate Hulk. So let's lend some perspective here. And Sabretooth has some fairly impressive damage soak / resistance feats. Sabretooth has broken free of a prison with an electric field designed by Forge to be strong enough push back and knock out an entire herd of rampaging elephants, for example. He's no push over either.

or taken on the whole team of Avengers by himself? WHEN!? Ultimate GG Healing Factor with his Durability is better.

He doesn't have to have that feat. As, and I repeat, GG has not, himself, taken on the whole team of Avengers either. Can't fool those who actually read the issue, and grasp the content, with such comments.

Now, going back to the Sabretooth reference. If that's not good enough for you, then how about when GG soaks a wound as serious as this (and no, him being impaled in the above scans is not as serious);

then, perhaps, we can start comparing him to the likes of 616 "Grey" Hulk in terms of durability with all this "Hulk Buster" ballistics talk. Hulk was temporarily out of the fight;
He was out for a few panels. More than enough to avoid plot swooping in to save the day (i.e Wolverine "howling his triumph" instead of finishing him off). So let's not pretend the same type wound, let alone one through the head, could not prove enough to win. That, and this is the kind of wound Wolverine is being known to inflict, more and more, when he stops holding back.
Wolverine's got the damage output, and the damage soak, to make this a bad day for GG. While the inverse undoubtedly holds true, Wolverine's far superior fighting skills tip the odds in his favor. Ult. Cap smacking GG in the face with his shield, would be twelve inch claws through his noggin had he been fighting Wolverine instead.
#196 Posted by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

When the hell has Sabertooth tank Hulk Buster Firepower, Missiles to the face,

Emphasis please on Ultimate Hulk Buster Firepower. We're talking Ultimate Hulk. So let's lend some perspective here. And Sabretooth has some fairly impressive damage soak / resistance feats. Sabretooth has broken free of a prison with an electric field designed by Forge to be strong enough push back and knock out an entire herd of rampaging elephants, for example. He's no push over either.

or taken on the whole team of Avengers by himself? WHEN!? Ultimate GG Healing Factor with his Durability is better.

He doesn't have to have that feat. As, and I repeat, GG has not, himself, taken on the whole team of Avengers either. Can't fool those who actually read the issue, and grasp the content, with such comments.

Now, going back to the Sabretooth reference. If that's not good enough for you, then how about when GG soaks a wound as serious as this (and no, him being impaled in the above scans is not as serious);

then, perhaps, we can start comparing him to the likes of 616 "Grey" Hulk in terms of durability with all this "Hulk Buster" ballistics talk. Hulk was temporarily out of the fight;
He was out for a few panels. More than enough to avoid plot swooping in to save the day (i.e Wolverine "howling his triumph" instead of finishing him off). So let's not pretend the same type wound, let alone one through the head, could not prove enough to win. That, and this is the kind of wound Wolverine is being known to inflict, more and more, when he stops holding back. Wolverine's got the damage output, and the damage soak, to make this a bad day for GG. While the inverse undoubtedly holds true, Wolverine's far superior fighting skills tip the odds in his favor. Ult. Cap smacking GG in the face with his shield, would be twelve inch claws through his noggin had he been fighting Wolverine instead.

Ultimate Hulk has tanked 2 Nuke missils at point blank. dont give me that "Ultimate" bull**** part >_>.

He kinda has. While all the others were tag teaming him GG the whole fight, they could not bring him down till IM hit him with the Genetic Destabilize. Arguing against the scans I posted is also fruitless. >_> If Nick Fury believed his team could take GG down, he would not have endangered Harry Osbourne trying to lure Goblin into Surrender.

Stop Lowballing "Ultimate" characters.

#197 Posted by Wolverine08 (47862 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@cable_extreme said:

@wolverine08 said:

@cable_extreme said:

@wolverine08 said:

@cable_extreme:

Wolverine has withstood immense amounts of heat before. The fire isn't a 100% guaranteed success.

Mixed with immense strength, fast enough speed to defeat spiderman, and super durability/ healing factor, yes it is.

Ultimate Spider-Man is vastly weaker than his 616 counterpart. Wolverine has the better healing factor, vastly better fighting skills, and superior speed. It could go either way, but I'm leaning towards him.

And no, Ultimate Spiderman is not vastly weaker than 616.He does not have superior speed. Maybe better skill, but not fighting ability. You talking about a guy that can jump over building fairly easily, one that is capable of defeating Ult Spiderman and keep up.

Wolverine has tagged Speed Demon, kept such an even pace with 616 Spider-Man (who is physically superior to Ultimate Spider-Man, has dodged ten sniper shooting at him at once, dodged Iron Man's repulsor blasts, nonchalantly out races cars, etc) that he thought he was faster than him, danced around X-23 (who has superhuman speed) while holding back, dodged repeated rounds of machine gun fire while in a weakened state, astonished Kaine ( 616 Spider-Man's physically superior clone) with his speed etc. He's faster than Goblin.

And yes, he's a vastly more skilled fighter than Goblin has ever shown, and sports the better HF. Which is why I lean towards him.

Are you trying to say Wolverine is the same speed as 616 spiderman? Goblin is faster, stronger, has flame powers, skin very durable with healing factor, can leap over buildings fairly easily. Wolverine will get KO'ed

What I said is clear and simple. Wolverine has better speed feats than Goblin, and has kept up with faster people than he has. He's faster than Goblin. When Osborn met a skilled fighter who was also fast (Ultimate Captain America), he became largely ineffective. Wolverine can do the same thing with his speed, and also has the better healing factor and an obscenely large gap in fighting skill. Goblin's biggest chance is his fire, and sadly, Wolverine soaked up things like that on many occasions and kept coming back. He takes the majority here.

#198 Posted by Cable_Extreme (10547 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

The reason I say Wolverine gets the endurance edge is because essentially any character that has a healing factor has shown that it can get over-taxed (except maybe the Hulk, but that also escalates with his rage). Wolverine has shown that his can be over taxed, or over strained, if needed to continually heal from long, sustained punishment. This might be a little bit of ABC logic, but I think the same principle would apply to Green Goblin. Blunt strikes such as punches, and other similar strikes don't seem to tax healing factors nearly as much as say a stab or deep cut. The logic would be because you are getting into organs and deep tissues which would normally be fatal without the healing factor.

So, what I am saying, is that Wolverine, blow for blow, is likely to take less damage and therefore less healing taxation than Green Goblin. Not only do to his incredibly high healing factor, but due to his adamantium skeleton which will reduce blunt force impact. The real taxing on Wolverine will come from Goblin's fire attacks. But, how likely is Osbourne to sit at a distance and do the entire fight at range like Iron Man and blast Wolverine to bits? I don't think that's very in character. Osbourne is smart, but he revels in overpowering his enemies as well.

On the flip side, even if he were to realize that's his only hope and were to do so, how likely is Wolverine to stand there and let him? Wolverine has experienced combat for over 100 years, he's going to dodge, cover, and hide. Then maneuver under cover where Goblin can't see him to close the distance again. And if he can't, certainly at some point such an energy exertion (like I said this fight could go for days) would tax Goblin's endurance. Even as a Super Saiyan, repeated Kamehameha's will wear down Goku (different Universe, different rules I know, but I think the point is valid).

If Goblin takes to range, and stays at range, I say it's a stalemate. I don't think Wolverine would stay on the street and let Goblin blast him. Take the fight to the subways were Goblin can't use his insane leaping and maintain distance. But you could argument Goblin would be too smart to follow. So if this becomes an attempt at a range fight, stalemate. If it mostly stays up close, Wolverine (barely) after a several long, bloody days. But even then Goblin still has the chance to win even up close, I just see slightly more wins in Wolverine's favor.

You do realize Wolverine will be taking A LOT of fire damage as well?

#199 Edited by Cable_Extreme (10547 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire said:

@cable_extreme said:

Are you trying to say Wolverine is the same speed as 616 spiderman? Goblin is faster, stronger, has flame powers, skin very durable with healing factor, can leap over buildings fairly easily. Wolverine will get KO'ed

He could make the claim using the same logic you're using. Ultimate Green Goblin can fight effectively against Ultimate Spider-Man, so obviously he must have the same speed. Wolverine can fight effectively against Kaine and Spider-Man, so obviously he must have the same speed.

I don't believe that to be sound logic, but that's the argument I've been seeing for Goblin's speed.

In Wolverine vs Spiderman encounters, you can clearly see who has the speed advantages. If Wolverine matched Spiderman's speed, then all he would need to do is simply cut Spiderman for the win. But he never gets a good enough shot to hurt spidey. Hence proving Spiderman is dodging the majority of his strikes.

#200 Posted by GraniteSoldier (10843 posts) - - Show Bio

@granitesoldier said:

@cadencev2:

The reason I say Wolverine gets the endurance edge is because essentially any character that has a healing factor has shown that it can get over-taxed (except maybe the Hulk, but that also escalates with his rage). Wolverine has shown that his can be over taxed, or over strained, if needed to continually heal from long, sustained punishment. This might be a little bit of ABC logic, but I think the same principle would apply to Green Goblin. Blunt strikes such as punches, and other similar strikes don't seem to tax healing factors nearly as much as say a stab or deep cut. The logic would be because you are getting into organs and deep tissues which would normally be fatal without the healing factor.

So, what I am saying, is that Wolverine, blow for blow, is likely to take less damage and therefore less healing taxation than Green Goblin. Not only do to his incredibly high healing factor, but due to his adamantium skeleton which will reduce blunt force impact. The real taxing on Wolverine will come from Goblin's fire attacks. But, how likely is Osbourne to sit at a distance and do the entire fight at range like Iron Man and blast Wolverine to bits? I don't think that's very in character. Osbourne is smart, but he revels in overpowering his enemies as well.

On the flip side, even if he were to realize that's his only hope and were to do so, how likely is Wolverine to stand there and let him? Wolverine has experienced combat for over 100 years, he's going to dodge, cover, and hide. Then maneuver under cover where Goblin can't see him to close the distance again. And if he can't, certainly at some point such an energy exertion (like I said this fight could go for days) would tax Goblin's endurance. Even as a Super Saiyan, repeated Kamehameha's will wear down Goku (different Universe, different rules I know, but I think the point is valid).

If Goblin takes to range, and stays at range, I say it's a stalemate. I don't think Wolverine would stay on the street and let Goblin blast him. Take the fight to the subways were Goblin can't use his insane leaping and maintain distance. But you could argument Goblin would be too smart to follow. So if this becomes an attempt at a range fight, stalemate. If it mostly stays up close, Wolverine (barely) after a several long, bloody days. But even then Goblin still has the chance to win even up close, I just see slightly more wins in Wolverine's favor.

You do realize Wolverine will be taking A LOT of fire damage as well?

Yes, I included that bit as well. The fire is Goblins biggest/only severe threat in this. Fire vs healing and claws vs healing. If Goblin this Wolverine with a strong enough and well timed fire blast, I honestly think he can KO Wolverine in one hit. I'm not disregarding it.