#51 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

@wolverine08 said:

@cadencev2:

Didn't say it was an easy win.

I know. Im trying to pick a fight.

*Slowly grabs a hand full of popcorn with eyes wide open*

No ones biting. This Fishing hole is empty :(

#52 Posted by MonsterStomp (16151 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp said:

@cadencev2 said:

@wolverine08 said:

@cadencev2:

Didn't say it was an easy win.

I know. Im trying to pick a fight.

*Slowly grabs a hand full of popcorn with eyes wide open*

No ones biting. This Fishing hole is empty :(

*Eye twitches in disappointment as I slowly put a popcorn in my mouth*

:( :(

#53 Posted by patrat18 (9019 posts) - - Show Bio
#54 Posted by JetiiMitra (8206 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp: @cadencev2: Gotchu. I'll bite.

  • Wolverine can take the damage GG throws at him. GG doesn't use big, building-leveling explosions often, and he hasn't in combat. He has used fire attacks to vaporize SHIELD grunts, but not against other super-powered opponents - he prefers punching and burning them into submission. Otherwise he would have vaporized Doc Ock, Peter Parker, and the Ultimates. Wolverine will be able to take regular attacks.
  • GG can't take the damage that Wolverine dishes out - at least not quickly enough. He has really impressive durability, but mostly to blunt damage. His most impressive piercing damage resistance was against anti-vehicular machine guns, but that isn't really comparable to claws that have cut World War Hulk and scratched Thor. His healing factor doesn't have enough noteworthy feats to be able to keep up with constant slashes, which brings me to my next point.
  • Wolverine has a speed and skill advantage. This is most important - well, aside from the claws - because they allow him to be able to give a good deal of damage while avoiding GG's punches. This will be similar to Ultimate Cap's short fight against GG in Ultimate War. He was able to dance around punches and land his own before being distracted by Peter. Though Cap has a stat advantage over Wolverine, he doesn't have the same skill. Wolverine can and will go for lethal blows.

Wolverine wins. Easy? Not really. But it is a clear win in my opinion. It'd be a lot of fun to watch.

#55 Edited by Wolverine08 (38938 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Lol, *puts fists up*. But in all seriousness, I think Wolverine can take this due to three things. Fighting skill, speed, and his healing factor.

1. Wolverine completely outclasses Osborn in fighting skill. He has been stated to know all the world's martial arts (including 22 forms of Kung fu. And has beaten or stalemated Marvel's best fighters like Iron Fist, Captain America (his healing factor's efficiency had severely dropped due to exhaustion, and he couldn't use his claws due to Cap destroying the ligaments in his hand, and he still won using his H2H skill), Black Panther, Daredevil, Shang Chi, Deapool, etc. Osborn is just a brawler relying on physicals.

2. I admit Norman is stronger than Wolverine, but I think Wolverine has a speed edge. He has dodged repeated automatic fire from Nuke while being a weakened state due to exhaustion, easily dodged everything X-23 (who has superhuman speed) threw at him while trying to not hurt her, during his first fight with Spider-Man (a guy who has tagged Speed Demon, dodged NINE snipers shooting at him at once, dodged Iron Man's repulsor blasts, easily outraced cars, etc.) Logan kept up with Pete at every turn and even made him say "Is he..... faster than me?", disemboweled a ninja who had been trained to have split second reactions and her whole group before she even noticed or pulled out a her sword. I think Logan is rocking a speed advantage here.

3. You put some impressive showings of Osborn's healing factor, but I still think Logan's is better. He has soaked up and gone unfazed by bullets, healed from having his heart ripped out in three panels, healed from a nuclear explosion by Nitro in no time, had his throat ripped out and healing in a few minutes, had his throat slit by X-23 and was healed up and talking as soon as he turned his head around, healed from a stealth bomber hitting him at full speed in a few seconds, and more. I think he's got the better healing factor.

I think Logan can use these things to edge out a 6/10 majority over Osborn.

#56 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: @mitran: Ohhh you both are so lucky I ready for bed right now! I will be back! First, a milkshake to help me sleep.

#57 Posted by MonsterStomp (16151 posts) - - Show Bio
#58 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio
#59 Posted by MonsterStomp (16151 posts) - - Show Bio
#60 Edited by RisingBean (3601 posts) - - Show Bio

@mitran: Thumbs up guy. And even though it was short, that Cap/GG fight remains one of my favorite of the Ultimate U. Though that fight was in Ultimate Six, not Ultimate War. The latter was the Ultimates vs the X-Men.

@wolverine08: You're not bad yourself.

#61 Edited by Super_SoldierXII (6185 posts) - - Show Bio

@mitran said:

Even though Ult. GG's really impressive, it doesn't change the fact that Wolverine will be able to take anything that Osborn throws at him, and Osborn will take loads of damage from those claws. Maybe if it wasn't adamantium Wolverine it'd be a closer match.

Except wolverine has more times been KOed or put down by less than Building Exploding Attacks. If Osborn burn his flesh to nothing, that is a KO.

Heck Osborn can hold Wolverine for a Incap if he wanted to.

Also I fail to see how Wolverine can win short of Decapitation.

OK. I'll bite.

First off, She-Hulk had troubles "holding" onto Wolverine - and he was not in the middle of fighting her when she got her mitts on him. You don't grapple with a dude who has blades for hands. Seriously bad idea. And Osborn would have to get in close enough unscathed to do so.

Here's how Wolverine wins - simply tie out Osborn for Creed and you get the picture;

One to the head, one to the throat and that should suffice for temporary stoppage. Wolverine is a vastly superior hand to hand opponent than Osborn. Heck, even Creed is. So hand to hand, this is how the fight ends. Unless you can prove Osborn's healing factor really is that much better even than Creed's own? Before we hype up the speed bit too much, Sabretooth is also fast, and has proven himself fast enough to tag 616 Spidey, so let's not sell his speed off too short in comparison to Osborn's either. It's one thing being able to tag Ult. Spider-Man, and another altogether proving he has avoidance capabilities to avoid Wolverine. Two different creatures.

The only thing worrisome is the "fire". Wolverine can easily close a 20 foot gap in distance nearly instantly (and has on a few occasions), so the starting distance doesn't worry. He can also dodge lances of fire that would certainly travel significantly slower than Scott's optics, and his healing factor will cope with regular, run of the mill fire faster than it would melt the flesh off his bones.

The only way Osborn can win this, is through a creative use of his fire abilities ... I remain unconvinced as to how effective against Wolverine that would truly be before Osborn drops to claws through the noggin ala Sabretooth style.

#62 Edited by JetiiMitra (8206 posts) - - Show Bio

@risingbean said:

@mitran: Thumbs up guy. And even though it was short, that Cap/GG fight remains one of my favorite of the Ultimate U. Though that fight was in Ultimate Six, not Ultimate War. The latter was the Ultimates vs the X-Men.

Darn it, of course it was Six. What can I say though, I've got War on the brain (it's my favorite Ultimate arc outside of Spider-Man, and I reread it recently). But thanks for the compliment!

#63 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: @risingbean: @super_soldierxii: @monsterstomp @mitran: Awesome, Ultimate Readers. Just for being Ultimate Comic Readers, you get a GOLD STAR!

Now that Im back and ready. Here is my problem with Wolverine Claws working on GG.

Durability

Norman's biggest asset.

Scan 1: Assault Rifle fire.

Scan 2: Attack Choppers with anti Vehicle Machine Guns.

Scan 3: GG with a special collar that lobotomizes any person trying to use their powers. Added to this he was being hit with Tranqs and ends with a Giant Man Pimp Hand!

Scan 4: GG tanks with ease Iron Man Repulsar Blast.

Scan 5-7: GG gets up after a few minuets from a all out Human Torch attack.

Osborn has easily shrugged off attacks that have slowed Wolverine down. Even withstanding all out Human Torch attacks twice! His Skin is unbelievable tough and his Healing is quick.

Blunt force is a no go here.

GG free falls from a Sky Scraper. Look at the damage he does here when he hits. He simply bounces off and turns back into Norman to keep off SHIELD's radar.

So we can count that out. That leaves Claws only. Well IMO how are Claws > to Hulk Buster weapons?

GG gets hit by SHIELDs Hulk Buster unit repeatedly and Anti Tank Missiles. All to no affect.

This is way more devastating than Adamantium Claws and GG withstands it with ease!

Lets look at how skill and such factor in. Yes Wolverine is more skill, however that skill is tedious at best when he goes Berserk with frustration. He will become frustrated easy!

Goblin is spectacular in this battle. Not only he manages Ultimate Cap the whole time, but the amount of damage soak to be the last main guy standing says alot. Goblin is damn near impossible to put down! Yet I am believe Wolverine > to Ultimates! BS!

Goblin has ways of putting Wolverine down IMO.

His main power is his stats and fire projection.

Scan 1: GG Blows apart tanks.

Scan 2: GG Blows away Security Blast Doors from a SHIELD Meta Human Prison.

Scan 3-4: GG Vaporizes more SHIELD.

Scan 5: We find out GG fire is plasma.

His fire projection is so powerful, he even destroyed a portion of the Ultimates Base when he raged out.

This all shows how often and powerful his fire Projection is. He can blow apart Tanks, Re Enforced Steel Doors, and a 20 story Building to bits! Wolverine is not tanking this like Ultimate Cap who blocked the fire with his near indestructible Shield. Wolverine is not easily dodging it either like the Super Speed Spider Man with Spider Sense.

Wolverine in fact likes to tank hits, this is a bad day to go that rout! Also lets say Wolverine decides to close in. So what?

GG can also set himself on Fire. Either way at Range or H2H Logan is getting burned.

GG also has shown the speed to tag Spider Man often in any fight. Wolverine is not winning the Majority IMO due to the Power Set and Durability of GG. To say other wise is saying Wolverine > to the Ultimates or Wolverine > Spider Man and Human Torch. Not seeing it.

#64 Posted by Wolverine08 (38938 posts) - - Show Bio
#65 Edited by Super_SoldierXII (6185 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

First, thanks for the scans. Well done.

1. Both 616 Wolverine and Sabretooth have soaked as much.

These are adamantium laced bullets. Only makes Logan mad. Now, show Osborn getting impaled through the head and throat, then getting right back up, and you're in business. Cuz that's exactly how I posit Logan will put him down. Like he did to Creed on two occasions just last year alone.

2. Three of Hawkeye's arrows to the chest were enough to temporarily drop him. Ult. Cap was using blunt force, and was not ramming twelve inch claws into his noggin. The problem with the scans, is the damage output is not at all reflective of what 616 Wolverine would be bringing to the table. Again, let's see Osborn absorb this;

And then not ending up like this;

Before we take him soaking what Wolverine can dish out a little too far.

Fire damage is his only chance of winning this fight. And even then, his fire lance attacks can be avoided dodge, area of effect fire damage can be soaked by Ult. Spidey, it can be soaked by Wolverine long enough for him to put Osborn down.

#66 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6185 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Here's another bullet soaking feat I love;

Again, to show that soaking automatic fire like that, does not mean Logans claws through the head wouldn't drop him. Particularly like the Hydra agent emptying an uzi into Logan's adamantium laced skull to no avail. Without the metal tough, he probably would have taken a nap while his brain matter stitched itself back together again.

#67 Posted by RisingBean (3601 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Well on the one hand we have beginning Goblin who was seriously hurt (and possibly defeated) by rifle fire. He tried to take Pete with him and missed and used the water to escape. In his second story arc, Harry speared him with a metal pole or some piece of architecture. He then had a reaction to the goblin formula and went down. Even at the end, he got beat (to death if memory serves) by a truck to the face in Death of Spider-man. Granted he had some good stuff in there, but my take is that if Wolverine can injure the Hulk and Thor, he can tear up GG.

I already explained above how I feel Spidey's inexperience dampens his speed. He makes mistakes that gets him hit. Wolverine can keep up well enough with 616 Spidey who doesn't make those mistakes and even if he does get hit, he probably still leaps in to dismember Osborn.

As for Goblin vs Ult Cap, Cap was running the fight. He dodged (the majority) of a fireblast, and all of GG's physical attacks. (unless I forgot one. Don't think I did.) He was getting his licks in too. It ended when Cap went after Pete to get him back on the side of angels. At which point things began going downhill for our baddie.

As per Wolverine > Ultimates? Nah, but in this case they also had to deal with Kraven, Doc Ock, Electro, Sandman and even manipulated Spidey. Had the Ultimates only had to deal with Osborn, it would have been a beating.

As for Goblin vs Torch, I seem to recall Goblin somehow actually absorbed the higher end attack, while he did tank some lesser attack.. Though with his power set, I am not surprised.

And in that last scan of him burning the (spider) monkey on his back? This is exactly the type of damage Logan would soak to sink his claws into Osborn and remove his head. The risk is a lot less then the reward.

I'm not seeing a sweep, but I would go 7 or maybe 8/10 in favor of ol' Wolverine.

#68 Posted by Cara_Hunter (3687 posts) - - Show Bio
#69 Posted by JetiiMitra (8206 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Now, I'm not going to deny that Osborn's durability to blunt damage is incredibly high. If Wolverine attempts to win through punches, he won't, period. But he won't be. GG's feat against the Hulkbuster units was impressive, but there's nothing to indicate that they're close to Wolverine's claws. Those claws are the king of piercing damage, and seeing as he's managed to cut World War Hulk and Thor, both of whom have higher durability feats than Osborn, there's no reason to assume he won't be able to cut GG.

As far as going berserk, it really won't mean much other than possibly making it more difficult for GG not to get cut. Logan will use his superior speed to stay on GG and hack and slash until he hits something important. In the meantime, all GG can do is either try to fight H2H or open some distance and use fireballs. H2H is suicide and Wolvie won't let him run away.

During his battle against the Ultimates, let's be fair: he didn't solo them, it was a team effort. Ultimate Cap did pretty well not taking damage, and getting in his own hits, while the other Ultimates dealt with the other Six.

Fire projection is important and Norman's best bet. He does have those impressive feats of blowing up a 20 story building and exploding tanks, but how often does he do that against other super-powered opponents? Not often. He would rather pummel and burn them than outright explode them. Otherwise, he would have done so against Doc Ock and the other super-powered people he's faced, which leaves his normal fires. These can be taken by Wolverine, and getting burned by no means puts him out of the fight.

For speed, he has been able to tag a somewhat inexperienced Peter, yes. But he wasn't able to tag an experienced Ultimate Captain America. The two have similar physicals, but Cap is a lot more experienced and skilled, both of which Wolverine has in spades. Also, keep in mind Wolverine is fast enough to keep up with a more experienced version of Peter. He holds the edge in the two most important factors of a fight: skill and speed. Saying Wolverine wins isn't the same as saying that he's better than the Ultimates or Spider-man and Human Torch, it's just saying that he is more suited to take down GG than they were. With the Ultimates - well, he only fought them one at a time, not all together, and with Spider-man and the Human Torch he was able to absorb Spider-man's hits and Human Torch's fire. Wolverine deals the right kind of damage the right way to take Osborn out.

#70 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii: You First.

First, thanks for the scans. Well done.

I try.

1. Both 616 Wolverine and Sabretooth have soaked as much.

These are adamantium laced bullets. Only makes Logan mad. Now, show Osborn getting impaled through the head and throat, then getting right back up, and you're in business. Cuz that's exactly how I posit Logan will put him down. Like he did to Creed on two occasions just last year alone.

Heres the thing, Logan never goes straight for head shots in character except against foes he knows well. Has he ever met Ultimate Green Goblin? No. Ultimate GG knows who Wolverine is.

I can see Wolvie using his basic 90% showings of Hack and Slash to try and use that on GG. Norman is not stupid, he is still a very capable tactician and fighter as we seen in Ultimate Comics.

Speed and Leaping

1-2) The guy also has insane fast leap feats to get around and catch Spidey in the air.

3) Jumps onto a airborne Heli Carrier above a city!

He can easy use his Hulk like Leaps to gain distance and attack from a range the whole fight base on what he knows of Ultimate Wolverine. Wolverine has no counter for a keep away game if Goblin so chose to do this.

It is not real in character, however neither is Wolverine head shotting every foes he fights.

2. Three of Hawkeye's arrows to the chest were enough to temporarily drop him. Ult. Cap was using blunt force, and was not ramming twelve inch claws into his noggin. The problem with the scans, is the damage output is not at all reflective of what 616 Wolverine would be bringing to the table. Again, let's see Osborn absorb this;

Um... what! Where is Hawkeyes arrows Drooping him!?

You mean this?

Where in this fight is Hawkeye drooping Ultimate GG?! It took a Plot Device Prep of Tony to beat him!

Here, if that is not good enough, how about the fights of GG easy withstanding SHIELD, Spider Man, and Shadow Cat packing specially design anti Goblin weapons!

Goblins Durability and Healing Factor was to much for their prep.

Fire damage is his only chance of winning this fight. And even then, his fire lance attacks can be avoided dodge, area of effect fire damage can be soaked by Ult. Spidey, it can be soaked by Wolverine long enough for him to put Osborn down.

Spider Man never really soaked his fire, other than the Fire on his back, Goblin has MANY TIMES held back on Spider Man hoping to get Peter to join himself. When he does go all out, the results are always in Goblins favor.

9 tons of Spider Man in his death struggle is inferior to a weaker Green Goblin. GG only gets stronger after this.

@risingbean: You Next.

Well on the one hand we have beginning Goblin who was seriously hurt (and possibly defeated) by rifle fire. He tried to take Pete with him and missed and used the water to escape. In his second story arc, Harry speared him with a metal pole or some piece of architecture. He then had a reaction to the goblin formula and went down. Even at the end, he got beat (to death if memory serves) by a truck to the face in Death of Spider-man. Granted he had some good stuff in there, but my take is that if Wolverine can injure the Hulk and Thor, he can tear up GG.

It is imperative to point this out. As the Comics Series goes on, GG gets tougher and tougher. It is explained why too.

One of the biggest things to note of Green Goblins powers is the fact they are constantly evolving thru the whole series. He just gets tougher and tougher.

As seen here.

Also in Death of Spider Man, GG was hit by a morals off Human Torch twice, hit by a ramming 9+ ton Truck, then slammed with said truck 3-5 times, and then had same truck explode in his face. All that would be enough to kill Sabertooth too. Show me Sabertooth or Wolverine tanking Human Torch Novas.

I already explained above how I feel Spidey's inexperience dampens his speed. He makes mistakes that gets him hit. Wolverine can keep up well enough with 616 Spidey who doesn't make those mistakes and even if he does get hit, he probably still leaps in to dismember Osborn.

Except 616 spidey stomps wolverine period :/ not a good Analogy.

As for Goblin vs Ult Cap, Cap was running the fight. He dodged (the majority) of a fireblast, and all of GG's physical attacks. (unless I forgot one. Don't think I did.) He was getting his licks in too. It ended when Cap went after Pete to get him back on the side of angels. At which point things began going downhill for our baddie.

Except out Baddie was being attacked and hit by Hawkeye, Cap, Iron Man, and Spider Man at the same time. Did not go down unitl he started to transform back to human and hit with Plot Device!

As per Wolverine > Ultimates? Nah, but in this case they also had to deal with Kraven, Doc Ock, Electro, Sandman and even manipulated Spidey. Had the Ultimates only had to deal with Osborn, it would have been a beating.

They all ganged up on Osborn to no effect! I showed this!

As for Goblin vs Torch, I seem to recall Goblin somehow actually absorbed the higher end attack, while he did tank some lesser attack.. Though with his power set, I am not surprised.

He was KOed the first time. He absorb the fires the second time, however nothing suggest he absorbed the damaged, he merely absorb the fire the second time.

And in that last scan of him burning the (spider) monkey on his back? This is exactly the type of damage Logan would soak to sink his claws into Osborn and remove his head. The risk is a lot less then the reward.

Or Logan could be nuked off like the Trisklon Building was!

I'm not seeing a sweep, but I would go 7 or maybe 8/10 in favor of ol' Wolverine.

I see it the other way. It would not be easy, but Goblin should win IMO.

#71 Posted by JetiiMitra (8206 posts) - - Show Bio
#72 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@mitran: Oy..... I just finish my response!

Now, I'm not going to deny that Osborn's durability to blunt damage is incredibly high. If Wolverine attempts to win through punches, he won't, period. But he won't be. GG's feat against the Hulkbuster units was impressive, but there's nothing to indicate that they're close to Wolverine's claws. Those claws are the king of piercing damage, and seeing as he's managed to cut World War Hulk and Thor, both of whom have higher durability feats than Osborn, there's no reason to assume he won't be able to cut GG.

I have no doubt he can cut Osborn. My point is Osborn's own Healing Factor will negate this as we have seen. It may not be as good as Wolverines, but it is as good as a starting Grey Hulk by feats.

As far as going berserk, it really won't mean much other than possibly making it more difficult for GG not to get cut. Logan will use his superior speed to stay on GG and hack and slash until he hits something important. In the meantime, all GG can do is either try to fight H2H or open some distance and use fireballs. H2H is suicide and Wolvie won't let him run away.

I think GG can counter with Fire Blast as I showed above, he can set his own body on Fire to a high degree, and can absorb his own flames to get hotter!

There is no reason that the last and current GG could not do this in a battle with fire everywhere.

He can blast areas like the Triskelon with his presence!

During his battle against the Ultimates, let's be fair: he didn't solo them, it was a team effort. Ultimate Cap did pretty well not taking damage, and getting in his own hits, while the other Ultimates dealt with the other Six.

Actually it was Iron Man, Cap, and Peter working on him at the same time.

Scan 1-2) Fighting Cap. Scan 3) getting blasted by Iron Man who is fighting Sand Man. Scan 4) Takes a major punch from Peter who joins Ultimate side.

All this while the Sinister 6 were still fighting.

Fire projection is important and Norman's best bet. He does have those impressive feats of blowing up a 20 story building and exploding tanks, but how often does he do that against other super-powered opponents? Not often. He would rather pummel and burn them than outright explode them. Otherwise, he would have done so against Doc Ock and the other super-powered people he's faced, which leaves his normal fires. These can be taken by Wolverine, and getting burned by no means puts him out of the fight.

Norman uses his fire alot!

1) Uses Fire Balls on Doc Ock.

2) Does it again to blast away his Arms!

3-5) Uses it to get Spider Man.

6-7) Uses Fire Projection to nuke SHIELD Hulk Buster squad.

8) Tries to destroy Plasma Shield Copters.

9) Uses it on Cap.

10) Again tries to nail Peter.

Yeah... GG uses Fire alot in his attacks. Also you need to remember his Fire Projection only gotten stornger and stronger in every arc he was showed in after the other.

He was continuously evolving in power output. As In the post above.

For speed, he has been able to tag a somewhat inexperienced Peter, yes. But he wasn't able to tag an experienced Ultimate Captain America. The two have similar physicals, but Cap is a lot more experienced and skilled, both of which Wolverine has in spades. Also, keep in mind Wolverine is fast enough to keep up with a more experienced version of Peter. He holds the edge in the two most important factors of a fight: skill and speed. Saying Wolverine wins isn't the same as saying that he's better than the Ultimates or Spider-man and Human Torch, it's just saying that he is more suited to take down GG than they were. With the Ultimates - well, he only fought them one at a time, not all together, and with Spider-man and the Human Torch he was able to absorb Spider-man's hits and Human Torch's fire. Wolverine deals the right kind of damage the right way to take Osborn out.

Again, I posted the whole battle and GG absolutely fought the whole team of Iron Man, Hawkeye, Cap, Spider Man, and Nick Fury at the same time. The Scans of the battle are here. He was being tag team the whole time and was gannged up on the end. Guess what? No one could bring him down without a Prep Plot Device.

Goblin is spectacular in this battle. Not only he manages Ultimate Cap the whole time, but the amount of damage soak to be the last main guy standing says alot.

So saying Wolverine takes him down is a major insult.

Add to this Dr. Octopus is design for Range Fighting and Piercing Arms.

As seen he can easily pierce People and Concrete as well. Yet in his fights for Green Goblin, he barely stalemates the first match. Then get outright destroyed in the second match!

Goblin vs Doc Ock in their first match against each other. Doc Ock at this time clearly had the upper hand, till Electro blasted him.

Green Goblin vs Doc Ock in their second and final fight. Very even fight at this point, Doc Ock ends up letting Norman kill him.

These are also great Speed showings as well. He reacts and tags Otto's arms which are fast enough to tag Spider man and Spider Woman all the time. They have easily deflected gunfire and Hawkeye's own super human speed with a Bow.

Pircing and Speed is not a auto win when GG has a Healing Factor as well great reaction feats. Best part is the Leaping for distance and Area of Effect Flaming Explosions.

#73 Edited by Super_SoldierXII (6185 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Heres the thing, Logan never goes straight for head shots in character except against foes he knows well. Has he ever met Ultimate Green Goblin? No. Ultimate GG knows who Wolverine is.

No. That's not entirely accurate. He never goes for head shots against antagonists he gives two shites about. Those he A) could care less about (like the beheaded hydra agent) or B) those he knows will survive (i.e. Hulk) or survive and could give two shites about (i.e. Creed & to an extent Deadpool) head shots are definitely on the menu. Against Spider-Man, Cyclops, Captain America (etc.) he pulls his punches because he cares to.

Regardless, after their first exchange, Logan will catch on right quick what he's up against. A master martial artist like him, head shots are definitely on the table.

Um... what! Where is Hawkeyes arrows Drooping him!?

You mean this?

Yeah ... only it wasn't just the arrows, but a Parker haymaker that temporarily dropped him. He was still out for a few though.

Here, if that is not good enough, how about the fights of GG easy withstanding SHIELD, Spider Man, and Shadow Cat packing specially design anti Goblin weapons!

That's fine. Looks to me like Parker was whoopin his butt - very least, he was handling himself just fine. They tumble out of the building together, Osborn goes boom, Parker gets saved. Nothing special to see there really. Yes, yes, Osborn soaks more "bullets". Again, him soaking piercing head trauma would be peachy.

9 tons of Spider Man in his death struggle is inferior to a weaker Green Goblin. GG only gets stronger after this.

Too bad Parker didn't have claws to stab GG through the face with while being choked out like that. Crying shame really. Wolverine woulda shown him how it's done.

Problem is, you're showing a whole lot of feats completely unrelated to a Wolverine fight. You make them sound spectacular in the description, the reality is somewhat more underwhelming - sounding impressive on the surface, but going no where in showing how GG will beat 616 Wolverine. Neither blunt force trauma, nor bullets, are the types of damage output Logan's going to lay down on this bloke.

Wolverine is a much more dangerous fight for GG than Ult. Spider-Man is do, precisely, to their differences. Most specifically in damage absorption, morals, hand to hand fighting ability and damage output. You seem to be suggesting that because GG has a hard time with Spider-Man, he will by default be too much for Wolverine. Which is completely false and misleading. Wolverine would have a much harder time against Parker than he would against Osborn precisely due to their respective strengths and weaknesses.

#74 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii: So Hulk Buster Weapons and Missiles are inferior to 2 foot claws?!

Riiiight.....

As for underwhelming, please, you have only ONE way for Logan to win. Getting up close and head stab. I can easily counter this with insane battle tank destroying Fire Blast, 20 story building Blast, and Hulk level leaps. Guess what that adds to? Range battle. Goblin never has to go hand to hand. since Osborn is smart enough to figure out how to out attack and smart SHIELD, he can figure the same for a foe he already knows the basis of.

If he kept this range like the statistician he is, Wolverine has no way of winning period. The best part is GG can hang in CC as well.

#75 Posted by JetiiMitra (8206 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2

Oy..... I just finish my response!

Oh. Yeah!

I have no doubt he can cut Osborn. My point is Osborn's own Healing Factor will negate this as we have seen. It may not be as good as Wolverines, but it is as good as a starting Grey Hulk by feats.

As far as going berserk, it really won't mean much other than possibly making it more difficult for GG not to get cut. Logan will use his superior speed to stay on GG and hack and slash until he hits something important. In the meantime, all GG can do is either try to fight H2H or open some distance and use fireballs. H2H is suicide and Wolvie won't let him run away.

Okay, good to know we agree on the cutting part then. The thing about the healing factor is, I haven't seen how it reacts to piercing damage. Since he mainly takes blunt damage, which is dealt with with his durability, it's hard to know just how much damage he actually takes vs what he needs to heal from. That's why I don't think he'll be able to heal quickly enough to take multiple slashes from Logan.

I think GG can counter with Fire Blast as I showed above, he can set his own body on Fire to a high degree, and can absorb his own flames to get hotter!

There is no reason that the last and current GG could not do this in a battle with fire everywhere.

He can blast areas like the Triskelon with his presence!

Has he been shown to absorb his own fire and use that energy? In that scan, he absorbed Human Torch's blast (which is very impressive), but the only way he's gotten hotter was by external energy sources. There aren't necessarily going to be many of those, considering they're fighting in an unpopulated metropolitan area rather than, say, a volcano. And although he did blast the Triskelion, he doesn't do attacks on that scale often in mid-combat.

During his battle against the Ultimates, let's be fair: he didn't solo them, it was a team effort. Ultimate Cap did pretty well not taking damage, and getting in his own hits, while the other Ultimates dealt with the other Six.

Actually it was Iron Man, Cap, and Peter working on him at the same time.

Scan 1-2) Fighting Cap. Scan 3) getting blasted by Iron Man who is fighting Sand Man. Scan 4) Takes a major punch from Peter who joins Ultimate side.

He did fight multiple Ultimates, but only one at a time. Iron Man's blast isn't really "fighting," it was just a potshot thrown when IM got a chance. It is an impressive durability feat, but hardly shows GG "dealing" with multiple opponents at one time. When Peter Punched him, Cap was nowhere around. Only one Ultimate attacked at a time.

All this while the Sinister 6 were still fighting.

Fire projection is important and Norman's best bet. He does have those impressive feats of blowing up a 20 story building and exploding tanks, but how often does he do that against other super-powered opponents? Not often. He would rather pummel and burn them than outright explode them. Otherwise, he would have done so against Doc Ock and the other super-powered people he's faced, which leaves his normal fires. These can be taken by Wolverine, and getting burned by no means puts him out of the fight.

Norman uses his fire alot!

1) Uses Fire Balls on Doc Ock.

2) Does it again to blast away his Arms!

3-5) Uses it to get Spider Man.

6-7) Uses Fire Projection to nuke SHIELD Hulk Buster squad.

8) Tries to destroy Plasma Shield Copters.

9) Uses it on Cap.

10) Again tries to nail Peter.

Yeah... GG uses Fire alot in his attacks. Also you need to remember his Fire Projection only gotten stornger and stronger in every arc he was showed in after the other.

Yes, he uses fire often, but it's not always at the same strength. In the middle of battle he doesn't suddenly use a building-leveling explosion or vaporize his opponent. He won't suddenly start doing it when fighting Wolverine. He'll use fireballs of course, but given Wolverine's speed, the amount of cover he has, and his own durability, they won't have as huge an effect as you're saying.

He was continuously evolving in power output. As In the post above.

For speed, he has been able to tag a somewhat inexperienced Peter, yes. But he wasn't able to tag an experienced Ultimate Captain America. The two have similar physicals, but Cap is a lot more experienced and skilled, both of which Wolverine has in spades. Also, keep in mind Wolverine is fast enough to keep up with a more experienced version of Peter. He holds the edge in the two most important factors of a fight: skill and speed. Saying Wolverine wins isn't the same as saying that he's better than the Ultimates or Spider-man and Human Torch, it's just saying that he is more suited to take down GG than they were. With the Ultimates - well, he only fought them one at a time, not all together, and with Spider-man and the Human Torch he was able to absorb Spider-man's hits and Human Torch's fire. Wolverine deals the right kind of damage the right way to take Osborn out.

Again, I posted the whole battle and GG absolutely fought the whole team of Iron Man, Hawkeye, Cap, Spider Man, and Nick Fury at the same time. The Scans of the battle are here. He was being tag team the whole time and was gannged up on the end. Guess what? No one could bring him down without a Prep Plot Device.

Goblin is spectacular in this battle. Not only he manages Ultimate Cap the whole time, but the amount of damage soak to be the last main guy standing says alot.

So saying Wolverine takes him down is a major insult.

That doesn't take into account his inability to tag Cap. He did a lot of punching, but very little connected. Also, the most I see him fighting at once are Captain America, Wasp, and Hawkeye. At the very end, after Iron Man hits him with the gene blast, then everyone unloaded and he went down. And either way, this is a showing of his durability and versatility in fighting different kinds of opponents - none of whom have a surefire way to damage him. Look at it this way: if Cap was replaced with Wolverine, do you think GG would have taken the same damage he did? No, he would have taken slashing damage, which would have been a lot more effective than the punches Cap was throwing.

Add to this Dr. Octopus is design for Range Fighting and Piercing Arms.

As seen he can easily pierce People and Concrete as well. Yet in his fights for Green Goblin, he barely stalemates the first match. Then get outright destroyed in the second match!

Goblin vs Doc Ock in their first match against each other. Doc Ock at this time clearly had the upper hand, till Electro blasted him.

Green Goblin vs Doc Ock in their second and final fight. Very even fight at this point, Doc Ock ends up letting Norman kill him.

These are also great Speed showings as well. He reacts and tags Otto's arms which are fast enough to tag Spider man and Spider Woman all the time. They have easily deflected gunfire and Hawkeye's own super human speed with a Bow.

Pircing and Speed is not a auto win when GG has a Healing Factor as well great reaction feats. Best part is the Leaping for distance and Area of Effect Flaming Explosions.

People and concrete aren't really good piercing feats against a super-powered opponent, and nothing compared to Logan's claws. In neither of their fights did Ock attempt to impale GG, and he doesn't have the same slicing capabilities that Wolverine does. Although I will admit the speed part was impressive; the gap between Logan and Osborn may not be as large as I thought.

It's important to note that the only skilled H2H opponent that GG has gone up against, Captain America, he wasn't able to tag. He usually fights people who have no idea how to fight, and his technique of brawling and throwing fireballs works due to his superior physicals against pretty much everybody, but against someone who knows what they're doing in a fight, those advantages get evened out.

Piercing, speed, and skill aren't necessarily all that's required to take GG down; Wolverine's insane durability and healing factor also come into play. And it's still not an easy win, but it is, in my opinion. A clear win. It's not insulting to Green Goblin (I even prefer this one to the 616), it's just that Wolverine is well-suited to take him out.

#76 Edited by Super_SoldierXII (6185 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii: So Hulk Buster Weapons and Missiles are inferior to 2 foot claws?!

Riiiight.....

First, the claws are 12 inches, not two feet.

Second; inferior to twelve inch claws through the head? Yes. Yes they are. See above for what they did to Hulk in answer to your "Hulk Buster Weapon" comment. Also keeping in mind how utterly inferior Ultimate Hulk is to 616 Hulk in every fashion.

As for underwhelming, please, you have only ONE way for Logan to win. Getting up close and head stab. I can easily counter this with insane battle tank destroying Fire Blast, 20 story building Blast, and Hulk level leaps. Guess what that adds to? Range battle.

Osborn has gone hand to hand in just about every tussle we've seen thus far. Why are you assuming a ranged battle all of a sudden when he's gone explosive only rarely and by necessity?

Goblin never has to go hand to hand.

And yet, again, he nearly always does.

since Osborn is smart enough to figure out how to out attack and smart SHIELD, he can figure the same for a foe he already knows the basis of.

If he kept this range like the statistician he is, Wolverine has no way of winning period. The best part is GG can hang in CC as well.

Again, that's a big "if". Seeing as how he rarely deigns it necessary to do so, consistency dictates this fight starts, and ends, in a brawl. Even in the big Ultimates brawl, he didn't go all nuclear.

I will acquiesce to one thing; if Osborn decides to go all napalm on Logan like he did in the battle tank, he can win. Definitely an exception to his abilities though, and not the rule. I think you might be underestimating Wolverine damage soak with fire though. Wolverine's gone toe to toe with Ragnarok and soaked all kinds blasts and damage and was still coherent at the end;

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_XUG9bqYon8/T5MuHCpJHvI/AAAAAAAAAOA/0wQzE528Ncg/s1600/spidey+helps+his+teammates.jpg

In that battle, Wolverine was without doubt the MVP. He's the only one battling the Thor clone while Spidey collects and saves his falling teammates. Stabs him through the chest, through the arm and neck (see, not so rare a thing), absorbs a full on lightning strike and numerous hammers blows, still refusing to let go of Ragnarok's cape to stay in the fight. It's obvious that Ragnarok goes down mostly due to wounds received by Wolverine with an Iron Fist haymaker the coup de grace.

Spidey catches Wolverine while he's falling and Logan was too hot for Parker to even hold onto ... though he was still conscious and rearing. For the record, Ragnarok >>>> Osborn.

You spell things out in ways to make them seem more impressive than the on panel evidence supports. I can understand that. You're selling your argument. No harm in it. But it is somewhat transparent.

Point in case;

Again, I posted the whole battle and GG absolutely fought the whole team of Iron Man, Hawkeye, Cap, Spider Man, and Nick Fury at the same time.

He was not fighting the entire Ultimates team "at the same time". They were rotating their attacks on him with their focus divided by the other antagonists. He was battling one at a time for the most part - and each member was either holding their own (Ult. Cap), or would have obviously gotten the better of him (Iron Man). And lets not pretend Osborn was there all by his lonesome; Doc Ock, Electro & Sandman were there too ... sheesh. The scans are right there. We know what we're looking at.

Now it's my turn to say "Riiiight ... " :P

#77 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6185 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Oh, and do notice how far Wolverine leaped to reach Ragnarok in the air. But one example of his super jump. He's done it against dinos in the Savage Land and against Sentinels as well.

#78 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Oh, and do notice how far Wolverine leaped to reach Ragnarok in the air. But one example of his super jump. He's done it against dinos in the Savage Land and against Sentinels as well.

So now he can jump over Sky Scrapers? >_>

#79 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@risingbean: @mitran: @super_soldierxii: Anyway, I think debated my the facts as they are for Ultimate Green Goblin. Unlike Wolverine fans who have 30+ years of Scans to pull from I have only 5 Arcs that Goblin stared in. What I showed from what we have seen easily puts Goblin over Wolverine for a win more often than lost. His power set is superior to Wolverines who only hope of winning is Stab to the head, which is negated by Goblins easy keep away and range attacks or AOE attacks.

So with that said, GG win majority :P

#80 Posted by JetiiMitra (8206 posts) - - Show Bio

@risingbean: @mitran: @super_soldierxii: Anyway, I think debated my the facts as they are for Ultimate Green Goblin. Unlike Wolverine fans who have 30+ years of Scans to pull from I have only 5 Arcs that Goblin stared in. What I showed from what we have seen easily puts Goblin over Wolverine for a win more often than lost. His power set is superior to Wolverines who only hope of winning is Stab to the head, which is negated by Goblins easy keep away and range attacks or AOE attacks.

So with that said, GG win majority :P

I might agree if GG had better healing feats, or if Wolverine didn't have so high a damage soak. But nope. So... agree to disagree. Good debate, especially for my first!

#81 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6185 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii said:

@cadencev2:

Oh, and do notice how far Wolverine leaped to reach Ragnarok in the air. But one example of his super jump. He's done it against dinos in the Savage Land and against Sentinels as well.

So now he can jump over Sky Scrapers? >_>

No no, he jumped around 20 feet from the roof of one building to the next. Meaning, he can jump out of the way of blasts and has a certain modicum of maneuverability all the same.

#82 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

@super_soldierxii said:

@cadencev2:

Oh, and do notice how far Wolverine leaped to reach Ragnarok in the air. But one example of his super jump. He's done it against dinos in the Savage Land and against Sentinels as well.

So now he can jump over Sky Scrapers? >_>

No no, he jumped around 20 feet from the roof of one building to the next. Meaning, he can jump out of the way of blasts and has a certain modicum of maneuverability all the same.

Ah, got ya.

#83 Edited by Super_SoldierXII (6185 posts) - - Show Bio

@risingbean: @mitran: @super_soldierxii: Anyway, I think debated my the facts as they are for Ultimate Green Goblin. Unlike Wolverine fans who have 30+ years of Scans to pull from I have only 5 Arcs that Goblin stared in. What I showed from what we have seen easily puts Goblin over Wolverine for a win more often than lost. His power set is superior to Wolverines who only hope of winning is Stab to the head, which is negated by Goblins easy keep away and range attacks or AOE attacks.

So with that said, GG win majority :P

Actually, GG's power-set was tailor made for Wolverine. And while Logan will no doubt have to stab him through the head to win, GG will have to go all nova on Logan to do likewise. I believe I've shown in the Ragnarok tussle how staying range with Wolverine and just "blasting away" is far easier said than done. I think I've also shown that Logan can, has and will go for the head shots and that said head shots can most certainly drop someone of GG's demonstrable durability.

As far as you minimizing the Wolverine's "only way of winning", it's also the most obvious and plausible given his skill and power-set, so there ain't a whole hell of a lot that is unlikely about that scenario. Especially seeing as how GG's "5 arcs" see him as more a brawler than anything else. Which is, again, Wolverine's bread and butter. I mean, seriously, when you're in a fight, are you trying to punch the dude in the arm or are you swinging for the bloke's jaw / face? Right then.

I still see this as Logan's fight to lose. We can certainly agree to disagree though. Thanks for the debate.

#84 Posted by Rainx20 (233 posts) - - Show Bio

This is a good match up I didn't know much about Ultimate green goblin never looked into ultimate spider man. Here is how I think it goes either Wolverine is KO'd which isn't going to be easy because his durability is impressive or Wolverine Decapitates GG.

#85 Posted by jwalser3 (4798 posts) - - Show Bio

Wait, when has Logan fought as a freaking skeleton?!

#86 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6185 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3 said:

Wait, when has Logan fought as a freaking skeleton?!

I'm gonna say ... never?

#87 Posted by jwalser3 (4798 posts) - - Show Bio
#88 Edited by Super_SoldierXII (6185 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3 said:

@super_soldierxii said:

@jwalser3 said:

Wait, when has Logan fought as a freaking skeleton?!

I'm gonna say ... never?

Then what was @wolverine08 and @cadencev2 talking about?

My guess is Wolverine being reduced to his skeleton, then healing back up from there (by Nitro and then again after having been tossed into a vat of lava).

Now that your questioning had me go back and peruse their exchange, I must say I disagree with taking exception to Wolverine's brain getting turned to jelly by seven consecutive WWH punches being an over the top feat for Wolverine's durability. It actually stands up to the majority of his feats. His healing factor being as fast as it is, and his skull laced on a molecular level with adamantium (which absorbs and distributes impact shock), I find of all the feats to take exception to, that's definitely not one of them.

#89 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3: @super_soldierxii: I was referring to a Omega Red battle were Logan was reduced to a Skeleton and CLIMBED OUT OF THE LAVA!

There is another Feat of Wolverine hit by Punishers RPG, reduce to Skeleton from waste down, and still stands!

Recockulas.

#90 Posted by jwalser3 (4798 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3: @super_soldierxii: I was referring to a Omega Red battle were Logan was reduced to a Skeleton and CLIMBED OUT OF THE LAVA!

There is another Feat of Wolverine hit by Punishers RPG, reduce to Skeleton from waste down, and still stands!

Recockulas.

Sounds crazy. I think I've seen the punisher one, can you show me the Omega Red one?

#91 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3:

@jwalser3 said:

@cadencev2 said:

@jwalser3: @super_soldierxii: I was referring to a Omega Red battle were Logan was reduced to a Skeleton and CLIMBED OUT OF THE LAVA!

There is another Feat of Wolverine hit by Punishers RPG, reduce to Skeleton from waste down, and still stands!

Recockulas.

Sounds crazy. I think I've seen the punisher one, can you show me the Omega Red one?

My Bad, Not Omega Red.

This one here.

What PIS/WIS BS!

#92 Posted by Joygirl (18802 posts) - - Show Bio
#93 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6185 posts) - - Show Bio

@jwalser3: @super_soldierxii: I was referring to a Omega Red battle were Logan was reduced to a Skeleton and CLIMBED OUT OF THE LAVA!

There is another Feat of Wolverine hit by Punishers RPG, reduce to Skeleton from waste down, and still stands!

Recockulas.

Yeah, but that was Ennis so ... meh.

#94 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

@jwalser3: @super_soldierxii: I was referring to a Omega Red battle were Logan was reduced to a Skeleton and CLIMBED OUT OF THE LAVA!

There is another Feat of Wolverine hit by Punishers RPG, reduce to Skeleton from waste down, and still stands!

Recockulas.

Yeah, but that was Ennis so ... meh.

Yeah, but a high end feat none the less.

#95 Edited by Super_SoldierXII (6185 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii said:

@cadencev2 said:

@jwalser3: @super_soldierxii: I was referring to a Omega Red battle were Logan was reduced to a Skeleton and CLIMBED OUT OF THE LAVA!

There is another Feat of Wolverine hit by Punishers RPG, reduce to Skeleton from waste down, and still stands!

Recockulas.

Yeah, but that was Ennis so ... meh.

Yeah, but a high end feat none the less.

Considering the context ... no ... no it really wasn't.

#96 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio
#97 Posted by RisingBean (3601 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

I went to work and missed the end? Fack!

I know GG evolved as the series went on. In Osborn's first arc, an M-16 worked fine. In his second arc, (where he is choking Pete to death in your scan) Pete escapes when Harry uses a piece of metal to pierce his back. We move on to the Death arc where it takes a heavy vehicle and a boom. Also while GG may soak punches, he got cut when Cap threw his shield through his side in Ultimate Six.

At any rate I don't see him evolving a new head when Logan decapitates him.

As per your 5 arcs vs 5 decades of continuity, I feel your pain. I love the Ultimate U, and it annoys me when quantity trumps quality. But lets face it, GG generally is exactly what Logan looks for in a dance partner. Odds are unless Remender is writing, or for some reason Osborn manages a super boom (and it has been done, what once? And never in battle.) Wolverine should take this. He'll probably be nearly nude and smell like a pot roast, but he'll stand up tall (well. Maybe not that tall at 5' 3") and add GG to the list of people who shouldn't have gotten on his bad side.

@super_soldierxii spells it out a lot cooler then me, but as a fan of both the Ultimate U and Wolverine, I feel the Canadian takes majority.

Also since you dropped out, I claim victory by lack of opposition. Ha!

Good seeing you again, Seebee.

#98 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@risingbean:

Good seeing you again, Seebee.

Hoorah! :)

#99 Posted by MonsterStomp (16151 posts) - - Show Bio
#100 Edited by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

@risingbean

Not to be nit-picky (and that ship has saaailed...), but in Osborn's defense, he was already shot with Iron Man's gene gun thing when Cap's shield cut him. So he was in a weakened state and shifting between human and goblin at that point.