@wolverine08 Bruce could have increased the charge of his taser's since his encounter with Bane and the subsequent encounter with Frankenstein.
Ultimate Captain America v.s Batman
@dondave: Tis' be true.
@wolverine08: It's already been mentioned that Frankenstein has a weakness to electricity...so the Taser being effective on him isn't that great of a feat.
@shawnbaby When was this?
@shawnbaby: True, but my main point was that with a grapple gun that can't be broken out of by Cap, he's going to be getting constantly pumped with electricity, and he has no real good feats of electrical resistance to say he can take it. Plus, the taser has managed to stun children whom had been turned into metahumans by Darkseid.
I love Batman he is my favorite comic book hero but, Ultimate Cap is bigger, stronger, and faster than him, plus he uses lethal force. In this scenario I don't think Batman wins. The biggest factor in this type of fight is personality, Ultimate Cap will break you to get the job done but if met with enough resistance he will KILL YOU to get the job done. This is a huge gap between the two. Batman might start in the shadows and throw smoke grenades and gas pellets but all that will do is turn a vigilant Cap into a hellbent determined Cap. His speed, agility, perception, training, and strength will go into over drive an he will find and break Batman. This match up is between two great strategists but one happens to be a physical powerhouse. Cap my third favorite Superhero beats Batman only because ultimate cap is bigger, stronger, meaner, and willing to kill unlike Batman.
@shawnbaby: True, but my main point was that with a grapple gun that can't be broken out of by Cap, he's going to be getting constantly pumped with electricity, and he has no real good feats of electrical resistance to say he can take it. Plus, the taser has managed to stun children whom had been turned into metahumans by Darkseid.
Again...there is no "constantly pumped with electricity"...it's a one-shot ability.
So really...at this point your whole case is reduced to the grapple line...and he's not getting a majority based on that.
@shawnbaby: True, but my main point was that with a grapple gun that can't be broken out of by Cap, he's going to be getting constantly pumped with electricity, and he has no real good feats of electrical resistance to say he can take it. Plus, the taser has managed to stun children whom had been turned into metahumans by Darkseid.
Again...there is no "constantly pumped with electricity"...it's a one-shot ability.
So really...at this point your whole case is reduced to the grapple line...and he's not getting a majority based on that.
Considering that you haven't given a counter to my point of freeze pellets that encase entire human beings and have enough area of effect to get Steve even with the shield, I fail to how I only have one point here. The taser is constant in the sense that it's an intense short burst, and considering that Ultimate Cap doesn't have any feats of electrical resistance on par with Bruce's taser, I fail to see why you dismiss it. It can be emitted either via the suit or grapple line for that mater. This is on top of sonics, low level bombs, the grapple gun.
A bombardment of a taser capable of one shotting metahumans, freeze pellets, knockout gas, sonics, bombs, and a grapple belt that restrains class 15's sounds good enough to drop Ultimate Cap. Unless Ultimate Steve has recently picked up a Wolverine level healing factor I should know about.
@shawnbaby: True, but my main point was that with a grapple gun that can't be broken out of by Cap, he's going to be getting constantly pumped with electricity, and he has no real good feats of electrical resistance to say he can take it. Plus, the taser has managed to stun children whom had been turned into metahumans by Darkseid.
Again...there is no "constantly pumped with electricity"...it's a one-shot ability.
So really...at this point your whole case is reduced to the grapple line...and he's not getting a majority based on that.
Considering that you haven't given a counter to my point of freeze pellets that encase entire human beings and have enough area of effect to get Steve even with the shield, I fail to how I only have one point here. The taser is constant in the sense that it's an intense short burst, and considering that Ultimate Cap doesn't have any feats of electrical resistance on par with Bruce's taser, I fail to see why you dismiss it. It can be emitted either via the suit or grapple line for that mater. This is on top of sonics, low level bombs, the grapple gun.
A bombardment of a taser capable of one shotting metahumans, freeze pellets, knockout gas, sonics, bombs, and a grapple belt that restrains class 15's sounds good enough to drop Ultimate Cap. Unless Ultimate Steve has recently picked up a Wolverine level healing factor I should know about.
I have given you a counter point....the pellet that exploded over Bruce and Selena's head that did not freeze either of them in any capacity whatsoever. If they can be that close to one of those things going off and not be affected..so can Cap.
I dismiss the Taser because people with Stats comparable to or less than Steve have been able to tank the taser with little difficulty. A Taser that could KO someone like Steve would be Lethal to normal humans...and Bruce doesn't employ lethal measures.
Ultimate Steve does have a Healing Factor which is a lot better than Current Wolverine's (snicker)...I kid...but he does have an accelerated healing factor capable of healing knife wounds in a couple of minutes.
I've already shown you why Knockout gas won't work. Neurotoxin was being injected into him by well over a dozen darts and all it did was make Steve a little groggy for a few seconds. Bruce doesn't carry enough Knock out Gas to even slow Steve down. Not sure why you keep beating that dead horse.
He's tanked explosions bigger than anything Bruce has packed in his little belt.
Also you seem to making the assumption that Steve is just going to stand there while Batman unloads everything he has on him. Cap's going to want to close the distance between him and Bruce and he's fast enough to do it before Bruce can o much about it. Bruce cannot begin to compete with Ultimate Steve on a physical level. The small skill advantage Bruce Possesses is not enough to make a difference here. In H2H, Bruce gets Murdered.
Bruce, In Character, will get stomped by Ultimate Cap
Bruce, Morals off, might take a few wins against Cap...but he will not be taking a majority.
If Peter Tomasi was the sole Batman writer I'd have actually given Bruce the win,but obviously we're gonna have to balance Batmans showings amongst the different writers and that's why Cap takes the majority.
Secondly I dont understand why people are making up things about Batman' fight with Bane in TDK,Batman was fatigued indeed but a boost of venom should be more than enough to overcome that,secondly Bane wasn't amped in that series. Bane has been written on that level consistently,Arkham War and Detective comics #19 show it clearly. Bane lost the second round cause he was up against Tomasi's Batman,if it was Buccellato Batman or Snyder Batman then the result would have been no different from the TDK fight.
@shawnbaby: True, but my main point was that with a grapple gun that can't be broken out of by Cap, he's going to be getting constantly pumped with electricity, and he has no real good feats of electrical resistance to say he can take it. Plus, the taser has managed to stun children whom had been turned into metahumans by Darkseid.
Again...there is no "constantly pumped with electricity"...it's a one-shot ability.
So really...at this point your whole case is reduced to the grapple line...and he's not getting a majority based on that.
Considering that you haven't given a counter to my point of freeze pellets that encase entire human beings and have enough area of effect to get Steve even with the shield, I fail to how I only have one point here. The taser is constant in the sense that it's an intense short burst, and considering that Ultimate Cap doesn't have any feats of electrical resistance on par with Bruce's taser, I fail to see why you dismiss it. It can be emitted either via the suit or grapple line for that mater. This is on top of sonics, low level bombs, the grapple gun.
A bombardment of a taser capable of one shotting metahumans, freeze pellets, knockout gas, sonics, bombs, and a grapple belt that restrains class 15's sounds good enough to drop Ultimate Cap. Unless Ultimate Steve has recently picked up a Wolverine level healing factor I should know about.
I have given you a counter point....the pellet that exploded over Bruce and Selena's head that did not freeze either of them in any capacity whatsoever. If they can be that close to one of those things going off and not be affected..so can Cap.
I dismiss the Taser because people with Stats comparable to or less than Steve have been able to tank the taser with little difficulty. A Taser that could KO someone like Steve would be Lethal to normal humans...and Bruce doesn't employ lethal measures.
Ultimate Steve does have a Healing Factor which is a lot better than Current Wolverine's (snicker)...I kid...but he does have an accelerated healing factor capable of healing knife wounds in a couple of minutes.
I've already shown you why Knockout gas won't work. Neurotoxin was being injected into him by well over a dozen darts and all it did was make Steve a little groggy for a few seconds. Bruce doesn't carry enough Knock out Gas to even slow Steve down. Not sure why you keep beating that dead horse.
He's tanked explosions bigger than anything Bruce has packed in his little belt.
Also you seem to making the assumption that Steve is just going to stand there while Batman unloads everything he has on him. Cap's going to want to close the distance between him and Bruce and he's fast enough to do it before Bruce can o much about it. Bruce cannot begin to compete with Ultimate Steve on a physical level. The small skill advantage Bruce Possesses is not enough to make a difference here. In H2H, Bruce gets Murdered.
Bruce, In Character, will get stomped by Ultimate Cap
Bruce, Morals off, might take a few wins against Cap...but he will not be taking a majority.
This is my last response since we're running around in circles at this point. You didn't counter my point. I was able to provide you with a scan that also showed Bruce encasing an entire being via the freeze pellets. Wouldn't it be pretty easy for one to deduce that Bruce carries different levels of pellets with different degrees of effect and didn't use the pellet that encases but just lowers temperature in the scan with Catwoman?. Not really that hard to put together.
Strength and speed don't equate to durability, so again, I don't see why you're trying to run past the fact that Ultimate Cap doesn't have any good feats of electrical resistance by saying that people whom are as strong as him(But have different biological makeups as a whole due to different means of enhancement) were able to tank it. If Ultimate Cap gets hit by that tazer, his chances of winning are dropping like a rock.
I wasn't really mentioning the knockout gas as a be end of all things so much as they were a supplementary tool to everything else Bruce can pull out.
Again, you didn't even seem to get the point of why I mention these things. Batman's explosions have sent metahumans like Brick flying through the air. Not only can they be used to inflict damage on Steve, but he can use them to stay at range. This is along with sonics, etc.
In regards to distance, Bruce has gear like the pellets and explosives that would let him control the fight, and the distance at which it's taken. Really, the only way Batman would lose morals off is if he decided to get into a frat boy punch fest with Cap, and he has too many options to do so.
@shawnbaby: True, but my main point was that with a grapple gun that can't be broken out of by Cap, he's going to be getting constantly pumped with electricity, and he has no real good feats of electrical resistance to say he can take it. Plus, the taser has managed to stun children whom had been turned into metahumans by Darkseid.
Again...there is no "constantly pumped with electricity"...it's a one-shot ability.
So really...at this point your whole case is reduced to the grapple line...and he's not getting a majority based on that.
Considering that you haven't given a counter to my point of freeze pellets that encase entire human beings and have enough area of effect to get Steve even with the shield, I fail to how I only have one point here. The taser is constant in the sense that it's an intense short burst, and considering that Ultimate Cap doesn't have any feats of electrical resistance on par with Bruce's taser, I fail to see why you dismiss it. It can be emitted either via the suit or grapple line for that mater. This is on top of sonics, low level bombs, the grapple gun.
A bombardment of a taser capable of one shotting metahumans, freeze pellets, knockout gas, sonics, bombs, and a grapple belt that restrains class 15's sounds good enough to drop Ultimate Cap. Unless Ultimate Steve has recently picked up a Wolverine level healing factor I should know about.
I have given you a counter point....the pellet that exploded over Bruce and Selena's head that did not freeze either of them in any capacity whatsoever. If they can be that close to one of those things going off and not be affected..so can Cap.
I dismiss the Taser because people with Stats comparable to or less than Steve have been able to tank the taser with little difficulty. A Taser that could KO someone like Steve would be Lethal to normal humans...and Bruce doesn't employ lethal measures.
Ultimate Steve does have a Healing Factor which is a lot better than Current Wolverine's (snicker)...I kid...but he does have an accelerated healing factor capable of healing knife wounds in a couple of minutes.
I've already shown you why Knockout gas won't work. Neurotoxin was being injected into him by well over a dozen darts and all it did was make Steve a little groggy for a few seconds. Bruce doesn't carry enough Knock out Gas to even slow Steve down. Not sure why you keep beating that dead horse.
He's tanked explosions bigger than anything Bruce has packed in his little belt.
Also you seem to making the assumption that Steve is just going to stand there while Batman unloads everything he has on him. Cap's going to want to close the distance between him and Bruce and he's fast enough to do it before Bruce can o much about it. Bruce cannot begin to compete with Ultimate Steve on a physical level. The small skill advantage Bruce Possesses is not enough to make a difference here. In H2H, Bruce gets Murdered.
Bruce, In Character, will get stomped by Ultimate Cap
Bruce, Morals off, might take a few wins against Cap...but he will not be taking a majority.
This is my last response since we're running around in circles at this point. You didn't counter my point. I was able to provide you with a scan that also showed Bruce encasing an entire being via the freeze pellets. Wouldn't it be pretty easy for one to deduce that Bruce carries different levels of pellets with different degrees of effect and didn't use the pellet that encases but just lowers temperature in the scan with Catwoman?. Not really that hard to put together.
Strength and speed don't equate to durability, so again, I don't see why you're trying to run past the fact that Ultimate Cap doesn't have any good feats of electrical resistance by saying that people whom are as strong as him(But have different biological makeups as a whole due to different means of enhancement) were able to tank it. If Ultimate Cap gets hit by that tazer, his chances of winning are dropping like a rock.
I wasn't really mentioning the knockout gas as a be end of all things so much as they were a supplementary tool to everything else Bruce can pull out.
Again, you didn't even seem to get the point of why I mention these things. Batman's explosions have sent metahumans like Brick flying through the air. Not only can they be used to inflict damage on Steve, but he can use them to stay at range. This is along with sonics, etc.
In regards to distance, Bruce has gear like the pellets and explosives that would let him control the fight, and the distance at which it's taken. Really, the only way Batman would lose morals off is if he decided to get into a frat boy punch fest with Cap, and he has too many options to do so.
I really like how you'll make deductions about Batman having different size of freeze pellets but deny the possibility the Ultimate Captain America can tank Bruce's Taser due to the fact that other people with similar stats have done so. If you want to talk about Feats...Cap's Durability is well beyond anything Bane has shown in every area we have comparisons for. Wouldn't it be pretty easy to deduce that if Bane can take the hit...Cap would be able to as well?
The Knockout gas is not going to be effective. I have already shown that Steve's resistance to such things is far beyond anything Batman can do. He took a dose of Tetrodotoxin that would have been enough to kill a gorilla and he shook it off in moments. Getting injected with multiple darts filled with neurotoxin is a far more effective delivery system than knockout gas in an open air environment. Bruce's gas is less than useless here. It's not going to help Batman whatsoever.
There is no "staying at range" the battle is up close....Steve is going to want to keep it that way...and he's far faster than Bruce. Once it gets to close quarters combat...Bruce is finished...end of story.
@shawnbaby: @wolverine08: If Batman shoots Captain with a line that shocks him, what exactly stops Captain America from simply yanking the line out of Batman's hands?
As for the Freeze Pellets, assuming it's 60 degrees in this environment, -40 degrees would still be almost 100 degrees warmer than the arctic, where Captain can be without caring too much.
Knockout Gas is just useless, in general.
And you know, here's the point I want to make most.
What makes you think Captain America is just going to sit there and get hit by this stuff??? That taser and grapple wire are not faster than a firearm, which he block regularly with his shield, you know, the thing he uses most. Those Freeze Pellets are equally slow, and would literally have to land on his skin, underneath his armor, in order to have a chance to affect him.
The Knockout Gas, plain and simply, useless.
I just don't see what Batman is bringing to the table. The beauty of Captain America's arsenal, is it all has multiple uses. He may just have ONE side arm, ONE rifle, and a few of the same grenade, with one shield. But he can use all of them over and over again until he's out of ammo, except his shield which he has at all time (and uses most often). If Batman misses, that's it, that device is done and out.
Thanks for reading,
Floopay
If Batman shoots Captain with a line that shocks him, what exactly stops Captain America from simply yanking the line out of Batman's hands?
When you get electrocuted your muscles seize up making it difficult to move. If Caps getting shocked he wont be doing anything unless he has feats of resisting electricity.
Batmans freeze pellets have never been dependent on the temperature outside or in the area to my knowledge. They just freeze things they come in contact with.
Knockout Gas is just useless, in general.
And you know, here's the point I want to make most.
What makes you think Captain America is just going to sit there and get hit by this stuff??? That taser and grapple wire are not faster than a firearm, which he block regularly with his shield, you know, the thing he uses most. Those Freeze Pellets are equally slow, and would literally have to land on his skin, underneath his armor, in order to have a chance to affect him.
The Knockout Gas, plain and simply, useless.
I just don't see what Batman is bringing to the table. The beauty of Captain America's arsenal, is it all has multiple uses. He may just have ONE side arm, ONE rifle, and a few of the same grenade, with one shield. But he can use all of them over and over again until he's out of ammo, except his shield which he has at all time (and uses most often). If Batman misses, that's it, that device is done and out.
Thanks for reading,
Floopay
You may have a point about knock out gas.
I am not sure what makes you think the freeze pellets would have to land on his skin to be effective. They've never had land on skin to be effective before and to my knowledge they've been portrayed as a gas so no cap isn't blocking it with his shield. And sure the taser and grapple gun aren't faster than a fire arm, but batman is faster and more accurate than most fodder marksmen. And before you say it yes I know he defeated ultimate hawkeye with ease however that was because ultimate hawkeye just shot him. Batman is more tactical than ultimate hawkeye is IMO:
First I would like to show some bullet dodging feats for Jason Todd:
Now here is batman tagging Jason Todd. What I want to put enthesis on is that batman didn't just shoot him. What he did was set Jason up to get shot before actually shooting him. He hurled a dumpster at Jason which forced him to leap, and when he was in the air Jason could dodge the grapple gun.
Now I'll admit that Jason isn't as fast as Ultimate captain america is but thats not the point. The point is despite Jason's ability to dodge bullets he still got tagged, and thats because batman set Jason up to get tagged. Batman doesn't have to hurl a dumpster at ultimate cap he just needs to get him in the air. Maybe drop an explosive at his feet or something. Or he could try to use stealth and throw down some smoke screen and use stealth.
As for ultimate caps firearms batmans magnetic batarang disarms them (it dragged multiple rocket reds towards each other):
Now am I saying that batman wins a majority here? No. Ultimate cap should take this fight. He a lot stronger and the shield can be very devastating so I don't think batman can afford to get hit by it. And in addition ultimate cap is not a slow brick and he is pretty tactical in his own right. And batman doesn't use a lot of these gadgets often.
My only point is that batman does have options here to say he is capable of holding his own and winning a few....I don't see Bruce taking a majority. All I'm saying is a case for batman can be made. He has options, all thats really up for debate is if batman will use these options and how effective they will be on cap. Personally I feel batman starts a lot of fights in hand to hand so I don't see him winning every time...But I can see him winning one or two times out of ten...If he fights smart.
All though I will say one thing about ultimate caps fighting skills.....I don't think he is that bad a fighter. If you look at his fight with ultimate hulk you will see he targets sensitive areas like the nose, the balls, etc. Like wise to quote slimj87D:
Lets actually look at the fight in detail, notice the skill behind Ultimate Captain America. When Herr Kleiser (Sorry, it's Kleiser not Krauser) tries to kick Captain America in the groin area, Cap immediately uses that momentum instead to let Kleiser hit him in the though, swing around and get on his hands and get a leg lock around his head. I think that's a pretty advance showing of H2H right there, not just the normal punching and striking but taking a strike, using it's momentum to get you in a lock position of grappling.
So I do think ultimate cap is a pretty decent fighter...Not as good as batman but he's not terrible.
Anybody who says BatMan wins is a fanboy of unimaginable levels. People honestly love DC for their unrealistic characters. Cap would murderstomp Bat's on a normal day, but Ultimate Captain America would slaughterstomp Batman in the opening minutes of the fight. All that Shadow League training and over 200 martial arts styles can't stop a clown with a gun and poisonous gases? Yet you expect him to beat a determined Cap?
REALLY?
@jashro44: It's fine. I post scans from things I've read 10 times over and fail to remember certain details.
I may notlike Batman, but I will admit that he's a powerhouse at his level. The problem is, he's going against a powerhouse on a level higher than himself.
Thanks for reading,
Floopay
@jashro44: It's fine. I post scans from things I've read 10 times over and fail to remember certain details.
I may notlike Batman, but I will admit that he's a powerhouse at his level. The problem is, he's going against a powerhouse on a level higher than himself.
Thanks for reading,
Floopay
Yea I agree ultimate cap is on a another level. I just don't think this is a mismatch. I think the only area he massively out classes batman in are strength and durability though. I can give him a slight edge in speed and agility due to his stats but I don't think his feats are better than batmans in that. Batman is a noticeably better fighter all though ultimate cap is a pretty decent one IMO. All though I think batman is also a lot more versatile due to his gear.
@jashro44: He's not a "decent" fighter, he's an amazing fighter. His fighting feats can match up with Batman's, and they do so proportionally (as in, Batman fights a 5 tonner, Captain America fights a 20+ tonner, etc. etc.), and MOST of the people he has gone up against are very well trained, and many of them outclass him.
Batman is physically outclassed here in almost every stat. His healing factor gives him a huge edge. His weaponry is an obvious bonus (lethal weaponry vs. non-lethal weaponry SHOULD be a no brainer), and his skills can match Batman's.
I know it's easy to say Batman is more skilled, but skill isn't just training, it's your mindset. I would say somebody who's willing to resort to lethal combat holds an obvious edge over someone who resorts to non-lethal. It's an obvious disadvantage on Batman's part, and his morals are going to get in his own way.
However, even without morals, Captain America has far more skills to master than Batman could dream of. His superior stats allow him a lot more option in terms of what he can and can't do. People may not think jumping out of helicopters and landing on people without a parachute, and things on that level are really signs of "skill", but they are. It's called knowing your limits and learning how to mitigate damage, and it's a big deal for martial artists. Batman knows his limits, he knows his strengths, he knows his weakness, and he plays to them appropriately. However, Ultimate Captain America has proven on almost every instance that he knows the same. He's shown his skill allows him to fight people who are as proportionally above him physically as Batman to his opponents.
I'm a firm believe that Ultimate Captain America holds almost every edge here. Batman's skill advantage is a minimal one at best, and it's not enough to even the odds here.
Thanks for reading,
Floopay
@jashro44: He's not a "decent" fighter, he's an amazing fighter. His fighting feats can match up with Batman's, and they do so proportionally (as in, Batman fights a 5 tonner, Captain America fights a 20+ tonner, etc. etc.), and MOST of the people he has gone up against are very well trained, and many of them outclass him.
Batman is physically outclassed here in almost every stat. His healing factor gives him a huge edge. His weaponry is an obvious bonus (lethal weaponry vs. non-lethal weaponry SHOULD be a no brainer), and his skills can match Batman's.
I know it's easy to say Batman is more skilled, but skill isn't just training, it's your mindset. I would say somebody who's willing to resort to lethal combat holds an obvious edge over someone who resorts to non-lethal. It's an obvious disadvantage on Batman's part, and his morals are going to get in his own way.
However, even without morals, Captain America has far more skills to master than Batman could dream of. His superior stats allow him a lot more option in terms of what he can and can't do. People may not think jumping out of helicopters and landing on people without a parachute, and things on that level are really signs of "skill", but they are. It's called knowing your limits and learning how to mitigate damage, and it's a big deal for martial artists. Batman knows his limits, he knows his strengths, he knows his weakness, and he plays to them appropriately. However, Ultimate Captain America has proven on almost every instance that he knows the same. He's shown his skill allows him to fight people who are as proportionally above him physically as Batman to his opponents.
I'm a firm believe that Ultimate Captain America holds almost every edge here. Batman's skill advantage is a minimal one at best, and it's not enough to even the odds here.
Thanks for reading,
Floopay
The problem is that comic books don't look at fighting skill like this in any shape, way, or form. Writers don't know jack about fighting and they don't consider things like that. It just comes down to overall depth of knowledge and advanced technical ability. And Batman is leagues ahead in that department.
@wolverine08: The hell it does. A guy makes a shield throw with pinpoint precision from 100 meters away is a showing of skill. A guy should throws, sweep kicks, and tosses around 20 ton soldiers (in groups) around is a showing of skill. Toying with Black Panther to see just how skilled he is, is a showing of skill. Getting the upper hand on a guy who is faster than you AFTER they ambushed you and got the first few shots, is a showing of skill.
It doesn't matter what the writer's STATE, it matters what a character does. That's the same argument as "If the author doesn't say he can't do it, it means that he can do it", or vice versa. A character's attributes are based off of what they do, just because someone knows 200 martial arts styles and whatever doesn't mean he's a better fighter. If a character knew 6,000,000,000,000 martial arts styles and lost to Bob, Agent of Hydra, that wouldn't mean he's skilled, he just knows a lot of martial arts styles.
Thanks for reading,
Floopay
@floopay: No, it really doesn't. Comic book writers don't really know much about fighting. They don't look at little things that would actually play a role in real world fights. To them, whomever knows more styles and fancy maneuvers is the better fighter. Jumping out an airplane just shows durability and the common sense to understand how high you can jump from. Do you care to present any feats of martial skill to make it impressive that Ultimate Captain America toyed with him? The kid's only fighting feat was getting beat up Ultimate Cap. That's pretty much tantamount to the fodder we see that are essentially created to lose. The problem with your comparison to knowing a plethora of martial arts but losing in actual fights is that Batman just doesn't know every martial art that exists, every pressure point that exists, one shot kill techniques like the Vibrating Palm, etc. He knows all of these esoteric things and he's successfully beaten/gotten the upperhand on martial artists in the DC whom have actual showings of technical skill to verify themselves as actual martial artists unlike the bricks and featless teenagers Ultimate Cap has made himself famous by beating up.
He's not a "decent" fighter, he's an amazing fighter. His fighting feats can match up with Batman's, and they do so proportionally (as in, Batman fights a 5 tonner, Captain America fights a 20+ tonner, etc. etc.), and MOST of the people he has gone up against are very well trained, and many of them outclass him.
Before I address this I would like to know which 20 tonner you're referring to cap fighting and which 5 tonner you're referring to batman fighting.
Batman is physically outclassed here in almost every stat. His healing factor gives him a huge edge. His weaponry is an obvious bonus (lethal weaponry vs. non-lethal weaponry SHOULD be a no brainer), and his skills can match Batman's.
Batmans gear may be non lethal but that doesn't automatically make it inferior to gear that is lethal. Again Batmans magnetic batarang could disarm a lot of caps weapons. Smoke pellets can be used to blind ultimate cap and create an opening to get the grapple gun around him, etc.
I know it's easy to say Batman is more skilled, but skill isn't just training, it's your mindset. I would say somebody who's willing to resort to lethal combat holds an obvious edge over someone who resorts to non-lethal. It's an obvious disadvantage on Batman's part, and his morals are going to get in his own way.
However, even without morals, Captain America has far more skills to master than Batman could dream of. His superior stats allow him a lot more option in terms of what he can and can't do. People may not think jumping out of helicopters and landing on people without a parachute, and things on that level are really signs of "skill", but they are. It's called knowing your limits and learning how to mitigate damage, and it's a big deal for martial artists. Batman knows his limits, he knows his strengths, he knows his weakness, and he plays to them appropriately. However, Ultimate Captain America has proven on almost every instance that he knows the same. He's shown his skill allows him to fight people who are as proportionally above him physically as Batman to his opponents.
I'm a firm believe that Ultimate Captain America holds almost every edge here. Batman's skill advantage is a minimal one at best, and it's not enough to even the odds here.
Knowing your limits is not the type of skill I am referring too. I am referring too martial arts skill. Basically the actual technique and finesse that is used when fighting. So no jumping out of helicopters does not show fighting skills. Its just durability. And again which enemies are you referring to specifically?
I don't see why morals would stop batman now when the've never really stopped him in the past.....Yea sure he would be more effective with morals off but considering his showings are basically all with morals on and this hasn't stopped him in the past from stalemating people like lady shiva and such who are willing to kill. Ultimate cap is still as effective as he's always shown to be and batman is still as effective as he has shown to be....
@wolverine08: Yet he's lost to the likes of the Joker (with no stated martial arts abilities), Bane (mysterious origin), had a hard time with Zsazz, and quite a few others.
Your argument, that we should ignore context, feats, and etc. And instead we should only take official guidebook stats as canon is 100% wrong in my honest opinion.
What a character DOES matters, not what they're stated as. And Captain America's current feats put him at Batman's level as far as I can see.
Thanks for reading,
Floopay
@wolverine08: The hell it does. A guy makes a shield throw with pinpoint precision from 100 meters away is a showing of skill. A guy should throws, sweep kicks, and tosses around 20 ton soldiers (in groups) around is a showing of skill. Toying with Black Panther to see just how skilled he is, is a showing of skill. Getting the upper hand on a guy who is faster than you AFTER they ambushed you and got the first few shots, is a showing of skill.
It doesn't matter what the writer's STATE, it matters what a character does. That's the same argument as "If the author doesn't say he can't do it, it means that he can do it", or vice versa. A character's attributes are based off of what they do, just because someone knows 200 martial arts styles and whatever doesn't mean he's a better fighter. If a character knew 6,000,000,000,000 martial arts styles and lost to Bob, Agent of Hydra, that wouldn't mean he's skilled, he just knows a lot of martial arts styles.
Thanks for reading,
Floopay
Agreed with you about the shield showing. As for the 20 ton soldiers feat are you referring to the liberator soldiers? Because I believe that feat was debunked....Black panther in the ultimate universe has no skill feats. He beat ultimate wrecker who is an unskilled brick and who ultimate black panther is faster than and did some flips around a gym.
Not sure what your refering to with the bold. I agree knowing more styles isn't everything in a fight but it helps. Some martial arts defend better against other martial arts. Having variety really doesn't hurt.
@wolverine08: Yet he's lost to the likes of the Joker (with no stated martial arts abilities), Bane (mysterious origin), had a hard time with Zsazz, and quite a few others.
Your argument, that we should ignore context, feats, and etc. And instead we should only take official guidebook stats as canon is 100% wrong in my honest opinion.
What a character DOES matters, not what they're stated as. And Captain America's current feats put him at Batman's level as far as I can see.
Thanks for reading,
Floopay
He has never lost to joker in a head on fight. Joker usually uses traps or sneak attacks. The only times bane beat batman were in knightfall when he was physically exhausted and in the new 52, however in his most recent fight with new 52 bane he recently just beat him in a pure fist fight. And bane (at least pre 52, new 52 is lacking admittedly) has skill feats. When did he have a hard time with Zsazz?
I agree that we should look at feats but thats the thing. Ultimate Cap doesn't have the skill feats. He's not unskilled but he's really not as skilled as batman.
@floopay: Bane has never beaten Batman in a canon fight besides their first New 52 encounter in which he had amped Venom and Bruce was exhausted. Besides that, he's lost to Batman in Detective Comics #710 and Batman has gotten the edge over him while Bane was amped on Venom Pre 52. Zsazz was someone whom actually had an origin of martial training along with the edge of goggles that increased his perception to the point where he saw things in slow motion. The best he's done against Batman with this edge was garner a stalemate. Besides that, he's lost twice to Bruce. Joker has at times given legit martial artists like Cassandra Cain via his erratic fighting style, so he's kind of got a track record for that.
I'm not using stats. Every piece of technical know how I pointed out has been expounded on in comics. When has Ultimate Cap done things comparable to taking one shot kill techniques and modifying them to the point where they still looked like the original, used pressure points to stop breathing, can reverse specific martial moves used on him, etc.? That is technical knowledge and finesse in comics, and that's what Ultimate Cap is lacking in comparison to Batman.
@jashro44: The ton(s) example was just a basic statement. Captain has fought Assemble, and Captain Britain clones, which are 20+ ton (there are more examples of this), but the statement was just there to be a statement.
Magnetic Batarang only works if it can provide more pulling weight than Captain America can handle, and I would say a grenade beats out most of Batman's weaponry. Assuming it's in the hand of someone who's as skilled with a grenade as Batman is with whatever device it's being compared to.
And knowing your limits is more important than any martial arts skill, and is a martial arts skill. Jeet Kun Do was more about knowing your limits, pushing your limits, and honing reflexes than it was actual techniques, and look where that got Bruce Lee. As for the enemies, pick any. It's not like there's a shortage of 20-100 ton opponents on Ultimate Caps part, most of which with military or better training, or a shortage of 2-10 ton villains on Batman's part (Killer Croc, Bane, Mister Freeze, etc.).
Morals are a big deal. Not being willing to use lethal combat eliminates a large plethora of techniques and possibilities. One may argue that because it's more difficult, it makes him more skilled. But I would counter with it's physically harder to do a marathon than it is to drag race. That being said, if you told two people they had to do a 200 meter, and they could bring whatever vehicles they wanted, you wouldn't credit the marathon runner with being a better racer because he chose a more difficult route...
Thanks for reading,
Floopay
@floopay: Bane has never beaten Batman in a canon fight besides their first New 52 encounter in which he had amped Venom and Bruce was exhausted. Besides that, he's lost to Batman in Detective Comics #710 and Batman has gotten the edge over him while Bane was amped on Venom Pre 52. Zsazz was someone whom actually had an origin of martial training along with the edge of goggles that increased his perception to the point where he saw things in slow motion. The best he's done against Batman with this edge was garner a stalemate. Besides that, he's lost twice to Bruce. Joker has at times given legit martial artists like Cassandra Cain via his erratic fighting style, so he's kind of got a track record for that.
I'm not using stats. Every piece of technical know how I pointed out has been expounded on in comics. When has Ultimate Cap done things comparable to taking one shot kill techniques and modifying them to the point where they still looked like the original, used pressure points to stop breathing, can reverse specific martial moves used on him, etc.? That is technical knowledge and finesse in comics, and that's what Ultimate Cap is lacking in comparison to Batman.
Your thinking of Zeiss Floopay is referring to Mr. Zsasz. As for JOkers fight with Cassandra cain the only reason he smacked her around was because her body reading was telling the wrong thing.
All though Joker did once beat deathstroke by shooting him with a toxin before.
@floopay: Bane has never beaten Batman in a canon fight besides their first New 52 encounter in which he had amped Venom and Bruce was exhausted. Besides that, he's lost to Batman in Detective Comics #710 and Batman has gotten the edge over him while Bane was amped on Venom Pre 52. Zsazz was someone whom actually had an origin of martial training along with the edge of goggles that increased his perception to the point where he saw things in slow motion. The best he's done against Batman with this edge was garner a stalemate. Besides that, he's lost twice to Bruce. Joker has at times given legit martial artists like Cassandra Cain via his erratic fighting style, so he's kind of got a track record for that.
I'm not using stats. Every piece of technical know how I pointed out has been expounded on in comics. When has Ultimate Cap done things comparable to taking one shot kill techniques and modifying them to the point where they still looked like the original, used pressure points to stop breathing, can reverse specific martial moves used on him, etc.? That is technical knowledge and finesse in comics, and that's what Ultimate Cap is lacking in comparison to Batman.
Your thinking of Zeiss Floopay is referring to Mr. Zsasz. As for JOkers fight with Cassandra cain the only reason he smacked her around was because her body reading was telling the wrong thing.
All though Joker did once beat deathstroke by shooting him with a toxin before.
Ah, thanks for the correction.
@jashro44: @wolverine08: One shot kills? He has decapitated someone with a shield throw, cut someone in half with his shield, took their heads off, snapped people's necks, and etc. Or do those not count as one hit kills because they're less flashy?
Pressure points are awesome. I mean, smack someone in the spine hard enough and knock them out, what's not great about that? However, shooting someone in the face is far easier, and far more practical. Also, it works against people with armor, or with nerve damage. The same can be said for his grenades, or his shield that can decapitate 20-100 tonners or cut them in half.
Yes, Batman is flashy and goes through great lengths to do these non-lethal maneuvers against someone, but they just...aren't...practical. He may be skilled enough to pressure point attack someone, but if they can match his reflexes they could divert his attack 1 cm and it'd be 100% ineffective. Someone diverts Captain America's punch 1 cm and they wind up with the same shattered blow.
He doesn't reverse attacks against him because more often than not he just goes for the kill. His martial arts style is more practical, and relies on his reflexes and better judgement, much like Bruce Lee. He shoulder throws, sweep kicks, blocks attacks, counter attacks, dodges, and etc. when it's appropriate.
Thanks for reading,
Floopay
@jashro44: I think what people refer to as skill is completely out of place these days.
A guy who avoids getting hit MOST of the time, who can land his blows MOST of the time, and can mitigate damage when he does manage to get hit is skilled. Considering he goes up against people who can kill a building with their punches, most of that is extremely reliable.
He's not flashy, I'll give you that, but he gets the job done, he does it well, and he can avoid getting hurt.
Thanks for reading,
Floopay
Who has Batman beat that is remotely close to someone of Ultimate Steve's caliber? Again, this is a guy that has a healing factor, can take 50 or more tranquilizer darts, is fast enough to not just block but deflect and return tranquilizer projectiles, has grappled and taken beatings from 10+ tonners using hammers and sledge hammers, can fall over 30 stories from a building, has a giant large diameter shield he can throw so fast that it can travel to 3 different buildings before be lands on the ground.
Deathstroke is the closes parallel you could draw between Batman's villains and Ultimate Captain America. Where has Batman successfully tasered, struck and knocked out or freeze palette someone of this caliber? If Batman can't beat Deathstroke consistently and legitimately, he's not beating Ultimate Captain America.
@floopay: Throwing the shield hard enough to cut people in half, cut off heads, etc. is just an example of Ultimate Cap's physical strength. The man is a 8-9 tonner going off high end feats. I'd expect him to be able to pull those type of things off. If 616 Captain America can replicate these type of things while being quite a bit weaker than Ultimate Cap, but Ultimate Steve couldn't, it'd be fairly disappointing. Someone doesn't need finesse or technical aptitude to use your physical strength to simply bash somebody's body into incapacitation. That's like saying a bear whom crushes a human head in one swipe must be a gifted martial artist. Trying to shrug off the fact that Ultimate Cap hasn't some of the technical stuff Bruce has by pointing towards practicality doesn't really make much sense in the context of what we are debating. Comic books have never valued practicality in relation to martial arts. There's no practicality behind mastering every fighting style that exists when a person can simply hone one to the point where it can be a lethal force. With martial skill in comics, more is better and the flashier the more advanced. Ultimate Cap can still counter a move and go for the kill. The problem is that he isn't Bruce in that he knows specific counters to certain martial techniques.
Ultimate Cap's martial skill isn't more practical, it's just less advanced.
@slimj87d: Right now the debate is whether or not Ultimate Captain America is around Batman's skill level.
So far the argument is Batman is stated to have more martial arts knowledge, and therefore is more skilled. As opposed to Ultimate Captain America often fights people with superior stats who usually have military training or better, and therefore should be stated as around the same skill level.
Thanks for reading,
Floopay
@jashro44: The ton(s) example was just a basic statement. Captain has fought Assemble, and Captain Britain clones, which are 20+ ton (there are more examples of this), but the statement was just there to be a statement.
Magnetic Batarang only works if it can provide more pulling weight than Captain America can handle, and I would say a grenade beats out most of Batman's weaponry. Assuming it's in the hand of someone who's as skilled with a grenade as Batman is with whatever device it's being compared to.
And knowing your limits is more important than any martial arts skill, and is a martial arts skill. Jeet Kun Do was more about knowing your limits, pushing your limits, and honing reflexes than it was actual techniques, and look where that got Bruce Lee. As for the enemies, pick any. It's not like there's a shortage of 20-100 ton opponents on Ultimate Caps part, most of which with military or better training, or a shortage of 2-10 ton villains on Batman's part (Killer Croc, Bane, Mister Freeze, etc.).
Morals are a big deal. Not being willing to use lethal combat eliminates a large plethora of techniques and possibilities. One may argue that because it's more difficult, it makes him more skilled. But I would counter with it's physically harder to do a marathon than it is to drag race. That being said, if you told two people they had to do a 200 meter, and they could bring whatever vehicles they wanted, you wouldn't credit the marathon runner with being a better racer because he chose a more difficult route...
Thanks for reading,
Floopay
- Cap threw his shield at assemble while assemble was fighting the X-men. Thats more of a strength feat than it is a skill feat. The captain Britain clones were 3-5 tonners not 20 tonners. And if we are using feats against fodder than batman was chopping down clones of doomsday with an axe. Now yea these clones are weaker than the real doomsday but they were killing many amazons. I usually don't bring up since they were fodder though.
- Ultimate cap cannot hold all his guns at one time an he also carries ammo on him. Whatever he isn't physically holding will get disarmed. And batman has tanked explosions with his armour so I disagree a grenade beats out anything batman has.
- Batman does all that too. Lots of characters know their limits. I want you to pick which enemies you're referring to because I would rather compare batmans skill feats to the ones you have in mind. Otherwise I am not sure which type of feats will impress you.
- Yes however batman has modified most of those killing techniques to be non lethal any how. The leopard blow for example....
@jashro44: @wolverine08: One shot kills? He has decapitated someone with a shield throw, cut someone in half with his shield, took their heads off, snapped people's necks, and etc. Or do those not count as one hit kills because they're less flashy?
Pressure points are awesome. I mean, smack someone in the spine hard enough and knock them out, what's not great about that? However, shooting someone in the face is far easier, and far more practical. Also, it works against people with armor, or with nerve damage. The same can be said for his grenades, or his shield that can decapitate 20-100 tonners or cut them in half.
Yes, Batman is flashy and goes through great lengths to do these non-lethal maneuvers against someone, but they just...aren't...practical. He may be skilled enough to pressure point attack someone, but if they can match his reflexes they could divert his attack 1 cm and it'd be 100% ineffective. Someone diverts Captain America's punch 1 cm and they wind up with the same shattered blow.
He doesn't reverse attacks against him because more often than not he just goes for the kill. His martial arts style is more practical, and relies on his reflexes and better judgement, much like Bruce Lee. He shoulder throws, sweep kicks, blocks attacks, counter attacks, dodges, and etc. when it's appropriate.
Thanks for reading,
Floopay
- When wolverine08 means one shot skills he's talking about pressure point attacks. Yes decapitation is on the table I never said otherwise.
- What accuracy feats with a gun does ultimate cap have to justify tagging batman? And again batmans armour has defended against bullets and explosions before.
- Thats a fair point and its the major reason I think batman loses here. Ultimate cap is a lot stronger and batman can't defend from his blows in melee where as ultimate cap can defend from batmans.
- Sure but that doesn't make him as skilled as batman. I never said he was a bad fighter I just said he is noticeably behind batman and he is. Batman has shown more technical skills, he has more references to his training, he has fought and either stalemated and defeated more established opponents than ultimate cap has.
Again ultimate cap wins but he really isn't as skilled as batman and there is a noticeable edge in skill between the two.
@wolverine08: So because he kills people in one shot (who are at or above his level physically in strength/durability), that only proves he can't do one shot maneuvers to kill someone, and therefore is less skilled than Batman....
As for the bear comment, your COMPLETELY wrong about my point. It'd be like a bear crushing a bear's head with one swipe (as Captain America fights people on or above this level), which would actually be fairly impressive.
The problem is you are stating that because Captain America is physically superior in this fight, he has to be less skilled, because he requires less skill to fight normal humans. But the fact is MOST of the good feats are of him fighting people who are not normal humans, but are at or above his level.
I will not agree that because someone is stated to be a master of x amount of martial arts styles, that they are automatically a better fighter. Especially not by the leaps and bounds you think it does. More skills doesn't make someone more skilled, it just means they've learned greater variety. Someone who has mastered Judo, Karate, and Boxing can still lose to someone who knows Aikido and nothing else.
Thanks for reading,
Floopay
@floopay: He kills those people by flinging an indestructible shield with his 8-9 nine ton strength whereas Batman uses technical knowledge from technique he's learned to modify a one shot kill technique. Come on, which one sounds better to you? The problem here is that you are trying to get past Ultimate Cap's lack of technical feats by pointing out that he fights people out of his physical weight class, so he must be in a similar league to Batman. Everyone in comics boxes out of their weight class. I can bring examples of Batman fighting out of his weight class, but you would most likely deem those PIS. I'm not disregarding Ultimate Cap due to his physical stats. If he had actual technical showings to put him on Batman's level, I'd accept him as so. These people out of Cap's weight class that he fights are bricks. Plain and simple. No actual documented or demonstrated skill to them. Batman has more feats of beating people with actual feats of technical skill to their name. That is real skill. You can disagree with the role overall knowledge plays in one skill level in comics, but it doesn't make it any less true. Comics have always established skill through quantities of knowledge. More is better around comic land in terms of martial talent.
Who has Batman beat that is remotely close to someone of Ultimate Steve's caliber? Again, this is a guy that has a healing factor, can take 50 or more tranquilizer darts, is fast enough to not just block but deflect and return tranquilizer projectiles, has grappled and taken beatings from 10+ tonners using hammers and sledge hammers, can fall over 30 stories from a building, has a giant large diameter shield he can throw so fast that it can travel to 3 different buildings before be lands on the ground.
Deathstroke is the closes parallel you could draw between Batman's villains and Ultimate Captain America. Where has Batman successfully tasered, struck and knocked out or freeze palette someone of this caliber? If Batman can't beat Deathstroke consistently and legitimately, he's not beating Ultimate Captain America.
No one is arguing batman beating ultimate cap, its just a debate about him getting stomped or not.
As for your question I think batman doesn't use gear on skilled fighters because of plot partially. The writers need to remind us that batman is skilled but if he uses gadgets than we don't get that. It is partially CIS as well which is part (not the entire reason) of the reason I don't see him winning but I do think that batmans gadgets should play a bigger in the battle forums than they do in comics.
@jashro44: I think what people refer to as skill is completely out of place these days.
A guy who avoids getting hit MOST of the time, who can land his blows MOST of the time, and can mitigate damage when he does manage to get hit is skilled. Considering he goes up against people who can kill a building with their punches, most of that is extremely reliable.
He's not flashy, I'll give you that, but he gets the job done, he does it well, and he can avoid getting hurt.
Thanks for reading,
Floopay
I agree people tend to get caught up in the flashy stuff. However its not even just the things like pressure points. There are stuff like batmans disappearance techniques which he has used to vanish in front of deadshot and bane in combat, and cracking RPG proof glass would be an example of batmans striking technique. If you want a less high end feat there is also batman kicking down trees and punching through bricks, it was even shown and stated that he has trained to strike a certain way. Ultimate caps fighting style is effective yes but it just kind of comes across as basic to me. Yea he targets sensitive areas but he targets common sensitive areas that are well known, that most fighters would know where to guard and possibly how to guard against. He has shown some advanced moves as well granted but I don't think his skill has been shown to be as advanced as batmans.
The reason I think batman is more skilled is because I think that not only will he target areas like the nose as well but he will also be targeting weak points ultimate cap probably doesn't know about.
@jashro44: I've stated this entire time that I believe Batman is more skilled, I've just also stated that it's not by any wide margin. I'm just saying he's only more skilled by a small margin.
- Captain America's precision with his shield is absolutely a feat of skill, and not just a feat of strength. I guarantee you give Hulk that shield and tell him to throw it, it won't go nearly as far or be nearly as precise or effective.
- The degree of fodder matters. Doomsday could be chopped down with an axe. Libertarian Suits and Captain Britain clones could smash a buliding with one shot, and an axe wouldn't be able to touch them. Some "fodder' have established skills and abilities, for example, I don't think either of them could take on 3 Bregan D'aerthe nameless troops. These may be nameless "fodder" as you put it, but their feats speak for themselves.
- He can absolutely hold all his guns at the same time (at least whatever he's got). It's called a strap....and MOST guns have them...Most of them even have "strap locks", which can withstand a lot of force. His ammo is about the only thing that might disappear, but probably not anything in a clip and already loaded. Also, how long does a batarang's magnetic affect last?
- Hurray, less lethal attacks! I'm sure Captain America would have a lot of use for attacks that don't regularly kill people, especially when most of his opponents have healing factors, body armor (capable of taking high caliber bullets), or durability enough to just sort of ignore pressure points.
Second set of bullet points:
- I don't understand why people make such a big deal about pressure points these days. You have to hit a nerve precisely for it to be effective, and provide enough force. If he's off by 1 cm or more, it's ineffective, and puts him in a position where he's vulnerable to counter-attack. I don't see why using them often is more impressive than a guy who just puts people down by knocking them out quickly with practical maneuvers...
- Shooting a gun requires far less marksmanship than bouncing a shield while falling at terminal velocity, and I'll stand by that fact all day.
- Thank you
- They are only more established because people blow up their skill levels and feats by what's stated. Ultimate Caps opponents earn their reputation through their feats. As for his skill level, he's been stated to be genius level as well. His tactics have been referred to multiple times in the comics, and his analytical skills and learning abilities have been stated to be faster than a computer program. That's kind of a big deal. He's even gone so far as to defeat a copy of himself.
So yes, Captain has been referred to several times as being a genius in terms of skill, tactical prowess, and ability. The only difference is he's not as flashy, and he doesn't use pressure points. Probably because they'd be useless against MOST of the opponents he'd have to train to use them against.
Thanks for reading,
Floopay
Who has Batman beat that is remotely close to someone of Ultimate Steve's caliber? Again, this is a guy that has a healing factor, can take 50 or more tranquilizer darts, is fast enough to not just block but deflect and return tranquilizer projectiles, has grappled and taken beatings from 10+ tonners using hammers and sledge hammers, can fall over 30 stories from a building, has a giant large diameter shield he can throw so fast that it can travel to 3 different buildings before be lands on the ground.
Deathstroke is the closes parallel you could draw between Batman's villains and Ultimate Captain America. Where has Batman successfully tasered, struck and knocked out or freeze palette someone of this caliber? If Batman can't beat Deathstroke consistently and legitimately, he's not beating Ultimate Captain America.
Batman is capable of putting down Slade but I can put Ult. Cap on even a higher level of strenght,brutality and skills. Don't get me wrong,your post is pretty well written but I am just disagreeing with you that Batman can't beat Slade.
@floopay: He kills those people by flinging an indestructible shield with his 8-9 nine ton strength whereas Batman uses technical knowledge from technique he's learned to modify a one shot kill technique. Come on, which one sounds better to you? The problem here is that you are trying to get past Ultimate Cap's lack of technical feats by pointing out that he fights people out of his physical weight class, so he must be in a similar league to Batman. Everyone in comics boxes out of their weight class. I can bring examples of Batman fighting out of his weight class, but you would most likely deem those PIS. I'm not disregarding Ultimate Cap due to his physical stats. If he had actual technical showings to put him on Batman's level, I'd accept him as so. These people out of Cap's weight class that he fights are bricks. Plain and simple. No actual documented or demonstrated skill to them. Batman has more feats of beating people with actual feats of technical skill to their name. That is real skill. You can disagree with the role overall knowledge plays in one skill level in comics, but it doesn't make it any less true. Comics have always established skill through quantities of knowledge. More is better around comic land in terms of martial talent.
You mean which sounds better?
Using your physical advantage to kill rapists, murderers, and terrorists.
Most of which can match him or surpass him in physical prowess. So this whole stating he's an 8-9 tonner over and over and over again is meaningless. That's like me stating Batman does what he does against normal humans over and over and over. He's fighting people who are relative to his power level or better, so his physical strength is a meaningless notion because his opponents can fend off his strength as easily as Batman's opponents can fend off Batman's! I don't see why him being as strong as his opponents or weaker is worth mentioning?
OR
Spending months of your life modifying techniques so that you can knock out rapists, murderers, and terrorists so that you can put them in prison, where they break out and go back to raping, murdering, and terroizing like 90% of the time. And then not learn your lesson and put them back in prison.
Gee, which one sounds smarter and more practical to me....?
He has shown plenty of technique and has been stated to be a tactical genius (as well as a regular genius). He's said to be able to learn and adapt faster than computer programs. However, none of that matters in comparison to his actual showings of abilities. Why? Because statements and knowledge mean jack squat if you can't use them. Which clearly he can.
Thanks for reading,
Floopay
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