Ultimate Captain America v.s 616 Captain America

Which Steve would come out on top, try and take them as they are its easier to say 616 has more experience simply because he has been in more comics and for longer, with that in mind lets say the fight is taking place during WW2...so their lives/experience wont have been that different.

In that case, I would say that Ultimate Cap would win as both would have comaparable combat training but Ultimate Cap is significantly stronger, more durable and has greater endurance.

I think Ultimate cap left the "Peak human" think behind a while ago.

"I fail to see how Ultimate Cap wins..... "

"@comicdude23 said:

"I fail to see how Ultimate Cap wins..... "

Instead of someone explaining to you how he wins.  Explain to us why you don't see it. "

" @comicdude23:  In this thread under conditions he looses. He does not have the feats to prove he is strong enough to simulate those you mentioned. 616 was still peak while 1610 was doing all the things you mentioned. Plus there combat training and experience would be Equal.   Read the op again. "

" @ThaMessenger07:  You are basing a lot of your argument on a lack of evidence being actual evidence.   Ultimate Captain America has not showed that he is less skilled in shield throwing than his 616 counterpart. That is an assumption on your part. What are the facts? The fact is that the 616 shield is unique and has been shown to be usable by other characters than Rogers with the same effect. Ultimate Captain America has an adamantium shield. It does not have the same ricocheting abilities that the 616 shield has. If anything, Ultimate Captain America using his shield with a similar thrown effect to the 616 shield proves that he does have just as much skill if not more because the properties of the shield do not normally allow for the same outcome.  Also you assume that the opponents that Ultimate Captain America fights have less skill than the 616 opponents. Also an assumption because we do not know either way. Ultimate Captain America usually ends up killing his opponents before feats can be established for the villains other than giving Rogers a hard time.   Experience also does not necessarily equal skill. I have seen military officers that have spent their lives in service with plenty of combat under their belts get handled by a newly minted black belt. 616 Rogers has also not been around as long as everyone assumes in the comic book world. The 616 universe has a floating time setting. The entire Avengers series has taken place over what? A decade?  The Ultimate universe also has a floating time setting but that does not really matter too much. Ultimate Rogers has been around for a few years and has been constantly active the entire time. Whether he is training or actually fighting. Furthermore, given that they both were boosted to genius level intellect, I doubt that either one has an advantage over the other with learned skill through experience.      "

Yes, you are correct. I am basing most of my idea off of a lack of evidence. There is no evidence that he can fight on par with 616 Cap. None what so ever. Am I to just believe he is that good? I know hes skilled but I don't know if he is to 616's level. 
 
True, No argument here except it has been shown to have the same affect but no1 has even come close to what Cap has done with his shield. The comparison ends at others throwing it and getting a ricochet effect but none have done anything nearly on the level of Rogers. Not to mention all that have used his shield either have incredible strength of some sort or are already expert marksmen.   
 
Yes, you are perpetuating that he is a skilled fighter on par with 616. Yet you can't present any evidence of this being a fact. He is definitely a skilled fighter who can use his abilities to defeat much more powerful opponents but nothing he has done can't be replicated by 616 version except for a few physical feats because he is super-human to a higher degree. The sheer fact that he has superior physical attributes and struggles with opponents more often then not shows that he is not quite on par with 616 Cap. He lost in a tussle with and Ultimate Spider-Man that is only 15 and at the time showed to be pushing 10 ton status. Yet 616 has given trouble to his superior, older, and more experienced counterpart.  
                                           
I acknowledge that the universe does not age much but Cap of the 616 Universe still has at minimum 10 years of activity over Ultimate Cap in modern day. As for your analogy, it is very flawed. There training before war would be nearly identical, there experiences after training during war would be similar. Now there experiences and training after re-animation is completely different. Cap 616 has a much larger and expended universe of skilled fighters that he has fought, both loosing and winning against many of them but for the most part winning. He has at least 8 years of activity over Ult. Cap and that is more then plenty. The flaw is you are comparing a military combat experienced veteran vs. a newly issued martial arts black belt. The comparison would be more accurate had you put a Martial arts black belt with around 6 years military combat experience versus another martial arts black belt with around 14 years military combat experience. Two fighters with the same or equal fundamental training in combat, the battle usually goes to the one with the more experience of applied combat.  
 
As for the op in this battle Ultimate Cap should definitely win. 
 
   "

1. 616 Captain America is not that skilled. At least, not as skilled as many would like to believe. And no, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Many of the things he can do are due to the SSS amplifying his stats, not actual fighting skill. That is why people like Daredevil (who is not that great of a fighter) can give him a hard time and Wolverine beats him when he is brawling or just trying not to kill Rogers. As far as actual straight H2H skill goes, I have seen more from volume 1 and 2 of the Ultimates than I have from the Avengers title because a lot of Ultimate Rogers opponents match or exceed him in stats. Now obviously most of the villains 616 Rogers fights have better stats as well but he does not usually go to H2H to beat them.
2. Hawkeye has been stated to be able to use the shield just like Rogers could. But yes, that is due to his marksmen ability, same as Rogers.
3. If we use only H2H fights, I can come up with comparable fights with Ultimate Roger to 616 Rogers. I say again, everyone that Ultimate Rogers had trouble with in H2H were either a match or vastly superior to him physically. Also you are taking that fight with Spider-Man out of context. 616 Rogers only gave Spider-Man trouble because he had time to study him extensively. The second Spider-Man decided to do something that Rogers did not have a chance to study, Rogers failed to show the ability to deal with it. There is no way that Rogers could beat Parker in a H2H fight without such preparation.
4. If 616 Rogers were as skilled in H2H as you say, he would not be losing to the aforementioned H2H fighters. Crossbones is a comparable fighter to him and Crossbones is not even among the best. Very good yes, but hardly the best. 

1. Name the issues where Rogers beats Wolverine and Daredevil. The only time I ever recall Rogers beating Wolverine was in Origins as a flashback to the 40's were Wolverine LET rogers beat him up. The only time I remember Daredevil losing was when he was trying not to fight Rogers. Rogers does not hold back against Wolverine because he cannot afford to. As for other heros, can you prove that he does? Well as far as what Ultimate Rogers doing what 616 cannot, that falls to stats which I think you defeated yourself on because we already know Ultimate Rogers has 616 beat in every category on stats. 
2. 616 Roger does not just study someone when he fights alongside them. Spider-Man does not study his friends at all. If you can prove otherwise, please provide me with a scan or issue reference. Rogers did as well as he did because he had a plan for Parker. He already knew how the fight was going to play out because that is what he does. Parker did not. He just relied on his spider sense (which is exactly what Rogers was betting on) and got himself in trouble. The very moment Parker decided to change up his normal routine, Rogers was thrown off. That is what happened. 
3. He does not get wrecked by Rogers all the time. Their fights are pretty even. Can you list these so-called victories that do not include lucking out or fight interruption? Furthermore, Ultimate Rogers taught himself everything he needs to know about combat in todays world in an extremely short amount of time. Do you really think that Martial Arts would not be among that education? Again, I have seen more and better H2H feats from Ultimate Rogers than 616 Rogers. 616 Rogers fairs as well as he does most often due to shield use, which is marksmanship. 

"Spider-Man does not study his friends at all. If you can prove otherwise, please provide me with a scan or issue reference.  "

" @erik said:

"Spider-Man does not study his friends at all. If you can prove otherwise, please provide me with a scan or issue reference.  "

I can. 1sec "

"@ThaMessenger07:  You are basing a lot of your argument on a lack of evidence being actual evidence.   Ultimate Captain America has not showed that he is less skilled in shield throwing than his 616 counterpart. That is an assumption on your part. What are the facts? The fact is that the 616 shield is unique and has been shown to be usable by other characters than Rogers with the same effect. Ultimate Captain America has an adamantium shield. It does not have the same ricocheting abilities that the 616 shield has. If anything, Ultimate Captain America using his shield with a similar thrown effect to the 616 shield proves that he does have just as much skill if not more because the properties of the shield do not normally allow for the same outcome.  Also you assume that the opponents that Ultimate Captain America fights have less skill than the 616 opponents. Also an assumption because we do not know either way. Ultimate Captain America usually ends up killing his opponents before feats can be established for the villains other than giving Rogers a hard time.   Experience also does not necessarily equal skill. I have seen military officers that have spent their lives in service with plenty of combat under their belts get handled by a newly minted black belt. 616 Rogers has also not been around as long as everyone assumes in the comic book world. The 616 universe has a floating time setting. The entire Avengers series has taken place over what? A decade?  The Ultimate universe also has a floating time setting but that does not really matter too much. Ultimate Rogers has been around for a few years and has been constantly active the entire time. Whether he is training or actually fighting. Furthermore, given that they both were boosted to genius level intellect, I doubt that either one has an advantage over the other with learned skill through experience.      "

" Can 616 Cap move faster than what Ult Cap can see? "

You mention Wolverine and Daredevil both characters he has beaten on numerous occasions.  

What has Ultimate Rogers done that regular Cap can not do? 

Please Tell me. Defeated Ult. Sabretooth? Defeated Venom? Bested the Hulk or got a Few good licks in? Gave Spider-Man a run for his money? Actually 616 Rogers has done those exact things more then once on noticeably stronger versions of the ones Ultimate Rogers fought.

False.  Neither have defeated nor are capable of beating Venom.  The showings VS Hulk shouldn't count, since neither can logically harm him at all.

You can compare Crossbones but as history shows he gets wrecked by Cap, consistently. 

"

You mention Wolverine and Daredevil both characters he has beaten on numerous occasions.  

Daredevil, yes. 
Wolverine, no.  He's had the edge over Wolverine in an actual fight ONCE (Wolverine: Origins).  I say actual fight because the instance in Enemy of the State wasn't a fight.  It's more than evident Wolverine has had the edge over Cap in their other encounters.
 

What has Ultimate Rogers done that regular Cap can not do? 

Aside from being physically superior, proving to be just as intelligent when it comes to tactics, and taking down Nick Fury's team in France (which included Ult Hawkeye---yet 616 cap couldn't beat Bullseye---and Ult War Machine)?  

Please Tell me. Defeated Ult. Sabretooth? Defeated Venom? Bested the Hulk or got a Few good licks in? Gave Spider-Man a run for his money? Actually 616 Rogers has done those exact things more then once on noticeably stronger versions of the ones Ultimate Rogers fought.

False.  Neither have defeated nor are capable of beating Venom.  The showings VS Hulk shouldn't count, since neither can logically harm him at all.

 

You can compare Crossbones but as history shows he gets wrecked by Cap, consistently. 

I'm curious about how you define 'wrecked.'  By wrecked, do you mean lost? Then yes, Crossbones regularly loses to Cap.  Is it ever a stomp? No.  The majority of their fights have been very close and Cap has even called him one of his 'toughest' foes.    "

Weirdly the shield effecting Hulk kinda makes sense though, it should absorb any kinetic resistence kinda acting like a bullet through paper and as the Hulk is so tough he can withstand the hit and still be effected by it.  This is just how I see it though and if you think im stupid for thinking it, its completly understandable since I have a hard time explaining it.  

In short, Ultimate Captain America wins. Even if it were current versions. 

" In short, Ultimate Captain America wins. Even if it were current versions.  "

" @ThaMessenger07:  

1. Name the issues where Rogers beats Wolverine and Daredevil. The only time I ever recall Rogers beating Wolverine was in Origins as a flashback to the 40's were Wolverine LET rogers beat him up. The only time I remember Daredevil losing was when he was trying not to fight Rogers. Rogers does not hold back against Wolverine because he cannot afford to. As for other heros, can you prove that he does? Well as far as what Ultimate Rogers doing what 616 cannot, that falls to stats which I think you defeated yourself on because we already know Ultimate Rogers has 616 beat in every category on stats. 
2. 616 Roger does not just study someone when he fights alongside them. Spider-Man does not study his friends at all. If you can prove otherwise, please provide me with a scan or issue reference. Rogers did as well as he did because he had a plan for Parker. He already knew how the fight was going to play out because that is what he does. Parker did not. He just relied on his spider sense (which is exactly what Rogers was betting on) and got himself in trouble. The very moment Parker decided to change up his normal routine, Rogers was thrown off. That is what happened. 
3. He does not get wrecked by Rogers all the time. Their fights are pretty even. Can you list these so-called victories that do not include lucking out or fight interruption? Furthermore, Ultimate Rogers taught himself everything he needs to know about combat in todays world in an extremely short amount of time. Do you really think that Martial Arts would not be among that education? Again, I have seen more and better H2H feats from Ultimate Rogers than 616 Rogers. 616 Rogers fairs as well as he does most often due to shield use, which is marksmanship. 

"

Daredevil he has beaten on numerous occasions. The time I was talking about was when they were supposed to have an Exhibition match and DD decided was acting agressive with all the ish he was going through and it turned into a real fight. I have the Scans if necessary.  For both his win on Dardevil and the fights with Wolverine.

2. I'm sorry, "What has Ultimate Rogers done that regular Cap can not do?" when I said this I meant in combat and fights not physically. I completely acknowledge that he is physically superior to 616 and I have this whole battle. The Bullseye remark seems irrelevant.  

3.The showing Vs. the Hulk is to eliminate the feat as it being one that 616 can't do. In Ultimates 3, I remember Cap knocking Venoms jaw out of place? As for 616 it was Carnage that he beat but not completely on his own.

4. The majority of there fights have been dialogued as tough but on panel it tends to look like a pretty decent beat down in Caps favor. I do agree they have had several fights that could go to decision (if it were in ring) but it would still go to Cap unanimously. He even beat him down without the SSS in one of my favorite arcs ever. IMO they were good fights but Cap dominated, wreck may have been a little much. 

I see your point. I also feel that Cap was able to best Hawkeye due to his physical powers more so then just his skill. Still showing great skill in that fight.

    Cliche part. Cap didn't really blind him since in that one momentum he used his ties in the back of his mask to pull him back and then ridge hand him in the throat. It was a bit of a dirty move but it's an all out fight.

I would do the same in his position, and didn't Crossbones pull out a knife? I was really surprised when Cap landed on his feet after Crossbones monkey flipped him. lol Kind of limber for a guy with no SSS in his system.  

 I agree with most of all you have said and have little to no argument. I simply feel that if these 2 Current Versions fight, it could go either way. Ult. Caps due to physical ability and great fighting skill. 616 Cap due to slightly greater skill and more experience against a great variety of enemies.     

@comicdude23 said:

the reason why Ult Cap wins is because he physically outclasses 616 Cap

For this motive Ultimate Cap wins

@wkar said:

@comicdude23 said:

I've ordered Trial Of Cap America, hope it's good, anyway, the reason why Ult Cap wins is because he physically outclasses 616 Cap

For this motive Ultimate Cap wins

um why the bump then?

@DeathsHead2 said:

Ultimate Cap > 616 Cap. Period.

As much as I hate to admit it because he reminds me of a assh**e-ish republican, Ult. Cap wins.

Yes, Ult. Cap would win, but only If they were fighting in the real world. Guys, seriously! Don't you read comics?! You measure strenght? Speed? Wtf? In comics, always wins the one who SHOULD win, not the more skilled one. Think for a sec, If those caps would fight, It would be probably because Ult Cap went asshole(again) and try to kill(or hurt) someone who doesn't deserve to. 616 Cap, obviously would try to stop him. 616 Cap is most noble man in main universe, he's the pure hero, while he's counterpart is a dumb monipulated soldier. 616 captain would win eventually, maybe buy luck or maybe cause he would find in himself a hidden strenght. Power that comes from desire to do the right thing and as we already know, he always does whats right. Thats why 616 Captain America will win, couse his the "chosen one"(as every other character from Mainstream Universe). You can shout you power mesures, but it wouldn't matter.

@rekrat: did you just try to justify 616 Cap wins cause he is a good guy and Ultimate will try to harm a bystander? Really?

Read every post. Ultimate Captain America would win. 616 Steve is more skilled but the difference in their physical abilities vs the difference int their strategic abilities puts the odds in ultimate Captain Americas favour. For example even if 616 is more skilled with the shield the enhanced reflexes of ultimates will most likely prevail. Although in a team battle I would take 616.

Team Battle I would still side with Ultimate Cap. not that 616 is not a good leader, its just that ultimate Cap gets things done with his plans. With on the fly planning he has beaten his Hulk twice, Wolverine twice, Red Skull with Cosmic Cube, the Avengers, Brotherhood of Mutants, and the entire Vampire race led by a Bruce Banner smart Hulk. 616 Cap has never beaten his Hulk even when leading the Avengers, never won the day for a cosmic being with on the fly planning, never beaten a power house team, Wolverine, ect.

By results, Ultimate cap strikes me smarter as fa as tactics go. He is also quoted to be insanely intelligent, granted super human intelligence from the SSS, and thinking faster than a computer.

Gallery

So while 616 may be more skilled, I would dare say Ultimate Cap is smarter in a fight.

Ultimate Captain America, easy.

Ultimate Captain America

Common sense and logic tells me Ultimate Cap. Bias and massive level of fanboyism tells me 616 Cap.

Ultimate Cap, for obvious reasons

Ultimate cap in a good fight.

I know ultimate cap is stronger and more durable but is he as skilled as 616 cap?