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#51 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio
#52 Posted by jashro44 (21923 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Personally I think what hurt you was when you brought up spider-man vs fire lord. Its true that spider-man does have a lot of years of high end feats but bringing up one high end PIS feat to debunk every single one of the feats Laflux posted wasn't the best decision IMO. I get you were trying to argue ultimate cap has more consistent feats but to be honest I think that was sort of poor reasoning. You also made the claim spider-man was a 9 tonner and there wasn't really much to support it where as laflux posted several feats to prove Peter was beyond 10 tons so he had more evidence to back up his claim. By down playing spider-mans strength you were also down playing black tarantulas durability.

Its not so much disrespect to spider-man so much as it is dismissing all those showings as pis and the reasoning being that spider-man has a lot of PIS showings (which is admittedly true [spider-man having a lot of PIS showings] but it shouldn't really take away from all of the showings laflux posted based on the reason provided). I think you need to figure out a new way to explain those feats are PIS and provide another reason. And also some support/reasoning as to why you think spider-man is a 9 tonner would have helped (for the record based on feats he is likely beyond 10 tons). You sort of just stated he is a 9 tonner. I also think Laflux disproved that the grenade would be effective based on black tarantula tanking the explosive but you were still stating the grenade would work in your next post.

Other then that you did good.

#53 Edited by SlimJ87D (9970 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: I personally think you won. You showed a lot of feats that put Ultimate Cap up there. You showed he has a healing factor, is durable enough to take hits from 100 tonners and is faster than BT.

Here's the part I thin you could have done better in. We know Black Tarantula has been put down 2 or 3 times. In your next debate, research your opponents character and display all the times they have had trouble or have been put down and then show scans of how your character can pull off the same things that caused their defeat.

Next, do a good thorough explanation explaining Cap's durability because honestly people here just think he's 616 Cap and that's it. He is far above 616 Cap, he hops out of buildings 20 to 50 stories high and lands on the ground all the time. He kicked a metal truck over. etc.

This is how I would have used this scan

This scan clearly shows Steve's superior strategic mind, speed and reflexes here. First he jumped out of a 10 story building knocking wasp out of with shied, then he fell 10 stories down landing on a truck he guessed and knew Nick Fury was in and knocked it over. When Hawkeye appears, not only does he land where he knows his shield returns, but Hawkeye had a clear shot and fired 5 tranquilizers at Cap when he was barely catching his shield and Cap managed to block them precisely at the right time to reverse their direction hit hawkeye.

This feat is significant because:

1. It proves that Ultimate Cap's durability is on par with the likes of Spider-man and even Black tarantula.

2. It shows that Steve thinks far ahead with the way he uses his shield. Black Tarantula has only fought opponents trying to overwhelm them. He's never encountered someone as strategic as ultimate cap is. Nor is has he shown any strategy on par with ultimate Cap.

3. Steve is faster than BT. BT has never been shown to be able to swat or catch dozens of bullets with his hands. He actually has eaten bullets more times than not. Ultimate Cap again blocked and not only blocked but deflected these tranquilizers AFTER they were fired.

4. Building off of point 3, Cap would also have to swing and strike the darts at the perfect time for them to do a perfect 180 and not only a perfect 180 but go at a speed where ultimate Hawkeye could not dodge. This shows that he has the accuracy of a tennis player that perfectly curves a ball where they want and the speed to smack darts as fast projectiles. Black Tarantula has NO speed feats that put him on par with Cap's superior speed and timing abilities.

[show ultimate hawkeyes dodging feats]

This is the way I would have debated throughout. This is how I would present each and every scan.

1. I would state why it gives Cap a advantage over BT because that's what you are trying to prove.

2. I would bold the important parts of your debate to get peoples attention because honestly people aren't going to read things word for word around here.

3. I would make it very organized so it's easier for people to read points.

4. I would help people understand how significant the feat Cap is performing is. Because again, a lot of people don't properly analyze feats. They don't even notice or care that Cap fell out of a building causing a shock wave knocking people back.

LOOK AT THIS RIGHT HERE MAN! Where has Spider-man or BT hopped out of a building so high that it causes a SHOCKWAVE that knocks people backward a little bit?

#54 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Alright thanks for the breakdown. Also I thought it was fact from many Bios that Spider Man is 9 Toner where Other Spider Man is 20 Toner. Is there other Bios that stated otherwise? I always was under that impression since Lizard is a 12 toner and he overpowers spider Man.

I wanna know for reference what is spider Man base strength?

@slimj87d: Yeah, I really should have showed the Ultimate Avengers getting owned feat. The best part is the scans in shields after the fight where Cap revealed he wanted to be captured without looking it so he could get access to where Red Skull was and a Teleport Jet. LOl.

#55 Posted by jashro44 (21923 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: The hand books have Peter ranked as a 10 tonner. Personally I think he is a bit stronger based off of feats I think he might be 15-20 tons once you average his high end and low end feats. He should be 10 tons at minimum though. Its true pre no turning back Lizard was ranked as a 12 tonner according to the hand books but Peter did once state that Lizard was 3 times stronger then himself (I think spider-man may have been exaggerating when he said that but point is the hand book could be wrong about lizard).

#56 Edited by laflux (16038 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Like I said earlier, Handbooks said Ten tonnes, not nine. And your right about Lizard being stronger than Spider-Man in most encounters, so its logical he should have a higher strength rating than Spider-Man (though a Bloodlusted Spider-Man did once defeat Lizard by breaking his neck). Though fact is that Lizard being listed a 12 tonner is probably false as well, especially if we look at what current Lizard was capable of.

The thing is with Strength rating in Handbooks is they are good for knowing where a character sits on the strength scale in most cases. For example Peter is weaker than Venom and Lizard according to Handbooks, and it shows via feats. But lets look at Venom Feats- Brock has lifted a Bulldozer- those things weigh 50 tonnes, he's lifted a small-medium sized tank with one hand, while pointing a Peter. Even lobotomized Flash Venom was able to partially lift an Abrams tank. so his rating of 11/25 tonnes is highly inaccurate. And Doc Samson being listed as a 25 tonner is pretty much the biggest amount bullsh!t I've ever seen. The guy has effortlessly performed Classic Wonder man feats and KO'ed Savage Hulk.

Simply put, I will favor consistent feats over handbooks.

Edit- I would just like to say again, I think the amount of the defeat was not a true indication of the debate IMO. I thought you did really well, and I'm not just saying this, I feel debating against you forces me to raise my game to the best. This fight kinda reminds of HigorM's battle against Strider92, when Higor lost pretty badly despite putting together a beautiful argument that would have beaten almost anyone else.

Oh I don't mean to bring up bad memories but didn't Killemall beat you using Odin vs Mesphito (Neutral Realm) by a similar amount. I don't think its bad since, I think that battle was lopsided by not putting Mesphito in his realm.

#57 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@cadencev2: The hand books have Peter ranked as a 10 tonner. Personally I think he is a bit stronger based off of feats I think he might be 15-20 tons once you average his high end and low end feats. He should be 10 tons at minimum though. Its true pre no turning back Lizard was ranked as a 12 tonner according to the hand books but Peter did once state that Lizard was 3 times stronger then himself (I think spider-man may have been exaggerating when he said that but point is the hand book could be wrong about lizard).

Thats why I hate debating against Spider man. He is all over the place in feats. He is suppose to be street level yet has feats that put him above Iron Man.

@laflux: Like above, Spider Man is too all over the place in feats. Icky.

Also yeas I was ROTF Stomped by Killemall. In hindsight I think in a neutral Realm Mephiso is to weak. so I accept that lost. This one just baffles me. Anyway, next time........

#58 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: I don't think you lost by a huge margin, honestly. Post #14 was really detrimental to your chances, imo. You mis-paraphrased Laflux several times, made a bunch of straw-man arguments, some of which Laflux had already clarified even before you made them, and brought up obviously PIS feats in an effort to disregard all of Pete's good showings. I don't care about your scans being small, I don't vote based on who had the most scans, anyway. (Honestly, scans count for basically nothing in a debate.) I don't care that you dislike or don't respect 616 Spidey, I wouldn't vote based on such a petty gripe anyway. I just felt that Laflux made a very clear, valid, and well-written, and well-organized debate, and while you made a very good debate, you misunderstood or at least misrepresented his points a couple of times, and I didn't agree with the logic behind some of your rebuttals. It wasn't a bad debate by any means, it was really quite good. I just thought Laflux was even better in this one.

#59 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire: Alright. also I do believe Scans matter as Evidence of Claims. Im not saying he with the most scans win, just more feats mean better chances in 90% vs Threads.

#60 Posted by jashro44 (21923 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Yea I agree that spider-man has feats all over the place (he has a lot of appearances). Thats why it is hard to get kind of determine his consistency.

#61 Edited by SlimJ87D (9970 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: @jashro44:

Handbook entries probably take into account a calm and normal state.

Humans with adrenaline could have burst of double strength for short periods if in dire need. We hear stories like this all the time. So it's not surprising peter performs high end feats but he most likely floats around 10 tons at a calm state.

#62 Posted by Shawnbaby (10790 posts) - - Show Bio

I have a bit of (what is at least intended to be) constructive criticism for both of you and I hope it will be received as such.

@laflux - Overall, I did like how you were using Spider-Man as a Point of Reference for Black Tarantuala's capabilities. However, at times it seemed more like you were debating why Spider-Man would beat Ultimate Cap. For the most part, I really did like the context you provided with those scans to show how they related to BT. I'd have liked to see a bit more on BT however. By basing so much of your argument on the Spider-Man comparison you left yourself open to attack.

@cadencev2 - Your knowledge of the Ultimate Universe characters is very impressive and your passion for those characters does come through in your debates. However, I feel as though you need to dial it back a bit and be a little more objective when presenting your case. While it may be obvious to you that Cap would win....it's your job here to convince us that he would win. You should present your case as though no one has ever heard of either of these characters. When presenting Scans as evidence you should walk us through the relevant information without any (and I hate to use the word here) "Fanboy" colouring. Remember, in essence these debates are not about who we think would win...it's about who made the better argument.

- I also feel that you should have been more focused on trying to debunk the Spider-Man comparison instead of debunking Spider-Man himself. As other people have mentioned...that Firelord Scan didn't help your argument. It legitimized Laflux's comparison between BT and Spider-Man.

#63 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire: Alright. also I do believe Scans matter as Evidence of Claims. Im not saying he with the most scans win, just more feats mean better chances in 90% vs Threads.

Feats are a big part of debates, but scans =/= feats, anyway. And it's more about who best applies the feats than it is who has the greatest amount of them. Not that scans are bad, by any means, they just aren't all that important a part of a debate, imo.

#64 Posted by Shawnbaby (10790 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

@cadencev2: @jashro44:

Handbook entries probably take into account a calm and normal state.

Humans with adrenaline could have burst of double strength for short periods if in dire need. We hear stories like this all the time. So it's not surprising peter performs high end feats but he most likely floats around 10 tons at a calm state.

While I completely agree about the adrenaline statement...I have to disagree with you on the Handbook entries.

Handbook entries represent the opinion of the person writing the Entry and are not necessarily accurate.

Exhibit 1: Mystique

Both of these entries are from 2005. One is from the X-Men handbook and the other is from the Women of Marvel Handbook. Looking at the Power Grid levels in both one can see a couple of discrepancies.

In the Women of Marvel entry she has an intelligence of 3 and a fighting skill of 4...while in the X-Men book she has an Intelligence of 4 and a fighting skill of 5.

Same Character. Same Year. 2 Different Power Grids.

#65 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby: Good points. I should have made more point of the Comparison rather than focus on SM feats directly. It seems the Fire Lord scan officially nailed the coffin closed too.

@esquire: Point taken.

#66 Edited by SlimJ87D (9970 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

@cadencev2: @jashro44:

Handbook entries probably take into account a calm and normal state.

Humans with adrenaline could have burst of double strength for short periods if in dire need. We hear stories like this all the time. So it's not surprising peter performs high end feats but he most likely floats around 10 tons at a calm state.

While I completely agree about the adrenaline statement...I have to disagree with you on the Handbook entries.

Handbook entries represent the opinion of the person writing the Entry and are not necessarily accurate.

Exhibit 1: Mystique

Both of these entries are from 2005. One is from the X-Men handbook and the other is from the Women of Marvel Handbook. Looking at the Power Grid levels in both one can see a couple of discrepancies.

In the Women of Marvel entry she has an intelligence of 3 and a fighting skill of 4...while in the X-Men book she has an Intelligence of 4 and a fighting skill of 5.

Same Character. Same Year. 2 Different Power Grids.

Shawn we have discussed this before plenty of times. To sum up what I have said each time, there is a tolerance you would have to follow with the showings, meaning plus or minus.

Handbook entries shouldn't be used to disprove feats, they should be used hand in hand to judge what is PIS and what isn't PIS.

Spider-man lifts a 15 ton tank, believeable. Spider-man flicks over a train with his finger, WTF?

#67 Posted by Shawnbaby (10790 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

@shawnbaby said:

@slimj87d said:

@cadencev2: @jashro44:

Handbook entries probably take into account a calm and normal state.

Humans with adrenaline could have burst of double strength for short periods if in dire need. We hear stories like this all the time. So it's not surprising peter performs high end feats but he most likely floats around 10 tons at a calm state.

While I completely agree about the adrenaline statement...I have to disagree with you on the Handbook entries.

Handbook entries represent the opinion of the person writing the Entry and are not necessarily accurate.

Exhibit 1: Mystique

Both of these entries are from 2005. One is from the X-Men handbook and the other is from the Women of Marvel Handbook. Looking at the Power Grid levels in both one can see a couple of discrepancies.

In the Women of Marvel entry she has an intelligence of 3 and a fighting skill of 4...while in the X-Men book she has an Intelligence of 4 and a fighting skill of 5.

Same Character. Same Year. 2 Different Power Grids.

Shawn we have discussed this before plenty of times. To sum up what I have said each time, there is a tolerance you would have to follow with the showings, meaning plus or minus.

Handbook entries shouldn't be used to disprove feats, they should be used hand in hand to judge what is PIS and what isn't PIS.

Spider-man lifts a 15 ton tank, believeable. Spider-man flicks over a train with his finger, WTF?

I'm just saying...2 handbooks from the same year give different scores for the same character...what source do you trust?

I can provide plenty more examples where the handbooks are flat out wrong about specific characters.

Domino, Punisher, Daredevil, Black Panther, Captain America

Fighting ability

Captain America: 7

Domino: 6

Punisher: 6

Daredevil: 5

Black Panther: 5

Following the chart Below for Fighting Ability we can see that:

a Score of 7 makes a person a Master of All forms of Combat

a Score of 6 makes a person a master of several forms of combat

and a Score of makes a person a master of a single form of combat

Do those numbers make sense to you regarding all these characters?

How about Captain America? If we go by the Numbers given...he's Peak Human after all. Does that coincide with your world view? You've got a whole rant on another thread that says it does not.

According to the Numbers given...Daredevil isn't even Peak Human...despite the countless amount of feats he has that put him at that level

Are the handbooks always wrong? No...but if The Handbook says one thing...and the comics consistently show something else....I'm going to go with the comics. And I'm betting most people here would feel the same way.

#68 Edited by SlimJ87D (9970 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby:

I don't think you understand my point. I feel like you have a very narrow vision of what I have said in the past and what I'm saying now. I'm actually not sure if it's worth discussing anymore.

1. Google and read about the word tolerance and read about the math part as we are dealing with grids here.

2. Reread my last post and explain what I wrote in your own words to me.

#69 Posted by Shawnbaby (10790 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

@shawnbaby:

I don't think you understand my point. I feel like you have a very narrow vision of what I have said in the past and what I'm saying now. I'm actually not sure if it's worth discussing anymore.

1. Google and read about the word tolerance and read about the math part as we are dealing with grids here.

2. Reread my last post and explain what I wrote in your own words to me.

I understand your point entirely.

What you are saying is Handbooks should be used in conjunction with existing consistent feats to determine whether or not a feat is PIS. Have I summed it up correctly?

The thing about that is that if you have existing feats that show a consistent range...The Handbook entry is, best case, made redundant. Worst case is that the handbook flies directly in the face of established levels leaving you to decide which set of data you are going to go with...The Handbook Entry written by some jumped up intern or the actual comics written by actual writers. If the Handbook says Steve Rogers is Peak Human...but Ed Brubaker says he's beyond Peak Human...which are you going to believe?

As for Tolerance...I'll give you the definition so you know that I understand exactly what you mean.

Tolerance: The Permitted Variation in some measurement or other characteristic. That sound about right to you?

As for your example of Spider-Man flicking over a train with his finger...I think I know exactly what you are referring to...and if so your are taking it out of context. It's only a small boxcar (probably empty) and it's already mostly over when Spidey flicks it the rest of the way. It's still silly but isn't like he flicked over an entire train. Also, I don't think it was every really meant to be taken very seriously.

My Point is that the with the amount of errors contained in those Handbooks...they can't be justifiably used to show PIS. If within the same year one character can have different stats...how can you determine what would be PIS? Going from a 3 to a 4 may not make a big difference when your chart is out of 100...but when the chart only goes to 7...the variation between those numbers goes well beyond any reasonable level of tolerance. Jumping from 3 to 4 turns a Learned character into a Gifted one, A Peak Human into a Superhuman, and a character with Some Training into an Experienced Fighter. A Yellow Belt has Some training...and a Black Belt is an experienced fighter...the difference between them is huge.

Strength of 4 means anywhere between 800lbs and 25 tons....That's a huge range and is totally impractical for determining exactly how strong a character should be in order to validate the credibility of a Strength feat. A much better way is too look for consistency in those feats. If a character that consistently struggles to lift a car suddenly lifts a dump truck...without further information, that's a pretty clear sign of PIS....and yet both a car and a Dump Truck can fall in that Strength of 4 range.

Speed of 2 is Normal...and Speed of 3 is 700 MPH. If Normal run speed is up to 30 MPH...that means that between Speed 2 and 3 there is a 670 MPH gap that isn't accounted for. Obviously not all characters with a Speed of 3 can run or fly at 700 MPH...but there's no way for us to actually determine where each character falls in that range with just the Handbook.

If we had an actual Graph that pinpointed exactly where in the given range the character fell that would be worth something...but we don't.

What the Handbooks are good for is Biographical information. They provide a tidy little sum-up of what the character has done up to that point. They provide good details on the type of powers and abilities that character possesses and the kinds of gear they use.

#70 Edited by SlimJ87D (9970 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby:

Awesome, that's exactly what I mean.

Handbook entries are updated periodically. Daredevil for example has a fight rating of 6 now. I just want to say on the side that a character with a fight rating of 5 could beat a character with a fight rating of 6 or 7 because in martial arts it's quality, not quantity. Moving along again. They give us a good idea of how the character should operate. Give me an example of a character that is blatantly wrong, like their most recent handbook entry shows that they are at a strength level of 4 when they should really be a 6 due to "consistent" feats.

Also, about the "large variation" in strength scale, a lot of times handbook entries if you read through the bio they will actually elaborate on around that ton range. Spider-man being around 10 tons and Carnage being around 50 tons. This lets us know surely that Carnage is much stronger than Spider-man and then upon further research we find out it's true through feats and comments from both characters. It even uses the word "approximate" giving it a tolerance.

But it does suck when they don't tell us. We really do have to go by feats here.

Nowadays, a lot of handbook entries are actually coming with subscripts that show there's more than meets the eye, such as the Hulk and the gamma radiation giving him a energy projectile level.

I want to say that I understand your point completely, and I believe in it as well. If a character CONSISTENTLY shows feats well out of their handbook entry zone, then the handbook entry should be disregarded if it's wrong out out of date. I never said this was the wrong thing to do. Are debates have been because it seems like you completely disagree with using handbook entries, period.

Most of your previous post made it seem like we should completely disregard it.

Me: "Humans with adrenaline could have burst of double strength for short periods if in dire need. We hear stories like this all the time. So it's not surprising peter performs high end feats but he most likely floats around 10 tons at a calm state."

You: While I completely agree about the adrenaline statement...I have to disagree with you on the Handbook entries.

Is this true? Do you still honestly think they should be any part of a debate or even used in an argument? Don't forget that initially you were used to reading the fake powergrids on marvel.com which are done by random people not even working at marvel.

#71 Posted by Shawnbaby (10790 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: No, I don't think they should be completely disregarded...If the information is not contradicted directly by actual feats...that's fine.

It wasn't so much that I believed that a 6 always beats a 5...although there is that insinuation when you see the numbers without any context. It's more that Fighting Ability 5 states that the character is only a master of 1 form of combat, which in the case of Daredevil, is not true. He's a master of several different forms. I'm glad to see that they've updated that in the more recent books though.

As far as misrepresenting characters...In the handbook I have with Daredevil in it...he is listed as a 2 for strength...which puts him below Peak Human...which, when compared to consistent strength levels shown in the comics, is not accurate. I hope they have updated that as well. It just goes to show though that, like in the comics, the writers of those entries make errors. When it happens in the Comics themselves we often refer to that as PIS. There's no plot in the Handbooks...but those entries are not always written by people that are properly educated in the characters.

I've seen some of the newer entries that, for example, will give teleporters two colours for speed, one for their actual movement speed and the other to indicate their teleportation. Andwhile thatis heading in the right direction, I feel as though they should scrap the Power Grid system entirely though and come up with something better. Something that has a bit more granularity. Power Grid is just not very flexible...the differences between levels are way too drastic at times and quite often they don't make much sense. Durability is probably the worst one on there. There doesn't seem to be a very natural linear progression between the ranks and there isn't necessarily any inheritance when going from one rank to the next. For Example, Luke Cage is Bulletproof...but there are no indications he has any advanced regenerative abilities. Also, some characters would fit into several different ranks. Wolverine has regeneration and that combined with his Adamantium makes him virtually indestructible...but he's not entirely bulletproof. It's just a bad system.

It is nice when the put in the approximate strength levels....quite often they only use the grid system, or sometimes the Class system (Class 10, Class 100 etc) which isn't much better than the Power Grid because it has similarly large ranges (IIRC Class 10 is 10-25 tons).

And, as I stated before, I do entirely agree with the Adrenaline statement which pushes characters well outside their established levels. Too often feats are described as PIS because they fall outside of the characters normal range. A surge of adrenaline can allow normal people to lift several times their normal capacity...there's no reason why the same should not hold true for super-powered individuals as well. Spider-man in particular has many examples of him going well beyond his listed 10 ton strength when he's desperate enough. I should put together a gallery of Peter's Adrenaline fueled Strength feats to show that even though those are beyond his normally established strength levels...there is still enough consistency for the feats to be valid.

#72 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: @shawnbaby: Holy Hell, this debate is alot more interesting than mine and Laflux. Let me know when it is time for votes :)

#73 Edited by Shawnbaby (10790 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: @shawnbaby: Holy Hell, this debate is alot more interesting than mine and Laflux. Let me know when it is time for votes :)

:D

#74 Posted by SlimJ87D (9970 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby: I agree, the power grid either needs to be fixed or they need to always ALWAYS elaborate on the grid itself. Like the strength level for doppleganger, was it really hard to take the 30 seconds to think about how strong he should be?

They just need to do a better job at the whole bio in general. I mean there are people paying for this stuff.

I believe Matt Murdock is at a 3 in strength now as well. I'll have to find it. It's not easy digging up the latest power grids, they're barried in shadowland and omnibuses or trade paperbacks sometimes.

#75 Posted by Shawnbaby (10790 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

@shawnbaby: I agree, the power grid either needs to be fixed or they need to always ALWAYS elaborate on the grid itself. Like the strength level for doppleganger, was it really hard to take the 30 seconds to think about how strong he should be?

They just need to do a better job at the whole bio in general. I mean there are people paying for this stuff.

I believe Matt Murdock is at a 3 in strength now as well. I'll have to find it. It's not easy digging up the latest power grids, they're barried in shadowland and omnibuses or trade paperbacks sometimes.

I think the that when you have to start loading up the system with Asterisks it's time to come up with a new system.

Fighting ability shouldn't really be in a grid type thing either because each character has their own specific fighting style and lumping them all together in generic categories just doesn't work. I prefer when the Fighting abilities are in more of a write-up style. Ex: "Captain America is a highly skilled Combatant and has adapted many forms of Unarmed and Armed Combat into his Fighting Style. He is considered to be one of Earth's greatest close-range fighters." Something along those lines.

It mostly bothers me because you should be able to use those Handbooks as authoritative sources...but due to the many errors and a poorly conceived power grid....you really can't use them as anything more than supplemental evidence. I am happy that they eventually fixed at least some of the errors though.

#76 Edited by Dextersinister (6174 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: It was the glass shards that had them stumbling about in that scan, it would make more sense as there is no visual sign of a shockwave such as ground crumpling heavily under his weight or the normal visual waves put in by the artist to represent it but they have put a lot of emphasis on the shards falling about around him

#77 Posted by SlimJ87D (9970 posts) - - Show Bio

@dextersinister: I don't think so. Look at the people, if glass was falling from the sky would you bend backwards? Take a really close look at their body language.

#78 Posted by Dextersinister (6174 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

@dextersinister: I don't think so. Look at the people, if glass was falling from the sky would you bend backwards? Take a really close look at their body language.

It's up the writer to show he he wants random villains to react to whatever is going on.

As I said the problem with the shockwave idea is there is no crater from the landing, it doesn't show them clearly flying away and they don't have the common shockwave drawn in which the same artist clearly has in the second photo.

He's also got low level strength by comic standards and isn't very heavy so there is no reason for him to be creating shockwaves with a landing unless the writer decided landing on his shield would create one.

#79 Edited by SlimJ87D (9970 posts) - - Show Bio

@dextersinister said:

@slimj87d said:

@dextersinister: I don't think so. Look at the people, if glass was falling from the sky would you bend backwards? Take a really close look at their body language.

It's up the writer to show he he wants random villains to react to whatever is going on.

As I said the problem with the shockwave idea is there is no crater from the landing, it doesn't show them clearly flying away and they don't have the common shockwave drawn in which the same artist clearly has in the second photo.

He's also got low level strength by comic standards and isn't very heavy so there is no reason for him to be creating shockwaves with a landing unless the writer decided landing on his shield would create one.

What source do you have for the bold part?

Everything you wrote doesn't prove what you believe happened in the scan. It actually works against you. So those little lines that propagate from Caps feet outward with every single person around him being shown to be forcing in the opposite of those directions and then it happening with a even more powerful shockwave right after doesn't show what the artist wanted to show?

#80 Edited by Dextersinister (6174 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

@dextersinister said:

@slimj87d said:

@dextersinister: I don't think so. Look at the people, if glass was falling from the sky would you bend backwards? Take a really close look at their body language.

It's up the writer to show he he wants random villains to react to whatever is going on.

As I said the problem with the shockwave idea is there is no crater from the landing, it doesn't show them clearly flying away and they don't have the common shockwave drawn in which the same artist clearly has in the second photo.

He's also got low level strength by comic standards and isn't very heavy so there is no reason for him to be creating shockwaves with a landing unless the writer decided landing on his shield would create one.

What source do you have for the bold part?

Everything you wrote doesn't prove what you believe happened in the scan. It actually works against you. So those little lines that propagate from Caps feet outward with every single person around him being shown to be forcing in the opposite of those directions and then it happening with a even more powerful shockwave right after doesn't show what the artist wanted to show?

That's a silly question

How does it work against me? In the first picture you clearly don't have shockwave lines in the second you clearly do but from his shield being struck which has nothing to do Caps ability. If Stephen Hawking had that shield strapped to his face and the villain struck it you would get the same effect.

As I said there is no reason Ult Cap should be producing shockwaves especially when he doesn't even fracture the ground when a shockwave jump almost always craters the ground.

#81 Posted by jashro44 (21923 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: I just saw your comment on the hand book entry now but personally I take hand books with a grain of salt. For example ultimate captain americas hand book has him ranked as an enhanced human but he seems to be super human based on feats.

I think saying Peters strength is 15-20 tons on average is fair. I don't think that goes to far beyond the hand books.

#82 Posted by SlimJ87D (9970 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: @shawnbaby: Holy Hell, this debate is alot more interesting than mine and Laflux. Let me know when it is time for votes :)

Lol, I think realized we pretty much agreed on a lot of points, we just didn't understand exactly where each other stood.

@slimj87d said:

@dextersinister said:

@slimj87d said:

@dextersinister: I don't think so. Look at the people, if glass was falling from the sky would you bend backwards? Take a really close look at their body language.

It's up the writer to show he he wants random villains to react to whatever is going on.

As I said the problem with the shockwave idea is there is no crater from the landing, it doesn't show them clearly flying away and they don't have the common shockwave drawn in which the same artist clearly has in the second photo.

He's also got low level strength by comic standards and isn't very heavy so there is no reason for him to be creating shockwaves with a landing unless the writer decided landing on his shield would create one.

What source do you have for the bold part?

Everything you wrote doesn't prove what you believe happened in the scan. It actually works against you. So those little lines that propagate from Caps feet outward with every single person around him being shown to be forcing in the opposite of those directions and then it happening with a even more powerful shockwave right after doesn't show what the artist wanted to show?

That's a silly question

How does it work against me? In the first picture you clearly don't have shockwave lines in the second you clearly do but from his shield being struck which has nothing to do Caps ability. If Stephen Hawking had that shield strapped to his face and the villain struck it you would get the same effect.

As I said there is no reason Ult Cap should be producing shockwaves especially when he doesn't even fracture the ground when a shockwave jump almost always craters the ground.

It's not a silly question because from interviews I have seen with the writer and artist together, or separate, they talk about what makes sense physically together and make decisions together. The writer is mostly in charge of plot. The staff as a whole decide how things should play out. I am referencing Mark Waid and Leinil Yu on Indescribable Hulk when Waid said he liked how Yu interpreted the Hulk with such force and speed because that's how he always thought Hulk should have looked meaning Yu got to draw the Hulk the way he wanted. Same thing recently with Jason Latour and Nick Klein on the Winter Soldier. In this case I'm not going to assume either, I'm going to look at the scan and analyze it as what happened.

It works against you. First you said that glass is causing everyone to be sent back. Then you're saying the artist would show that they are being pushed back by a shockwave, yet you have no explanation as to why the artist drew everyone being forced "away" from Cap. That explanation was an assumption.

The only thing I see is Cap jumping from a great height. When he lands, the people around him are distorted. The way they are distorted is that they are being sent backwards, some of them off of their feet, some of them bending backwards away from Cap. Then his opponent punches him with a force greater than the force caused when he landed.

#83 Edited by SlimJ87D (9970 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@slimj87d: I just saw your comment on the hand book entry now but personally I take hand books with a grain of salt. For example ultimate captain americas hand book has him ranked as an enhanced human but he seems to be super human based on feats.

I think saying Peters strength is 15-20 tons on average is fair. I don't think that goes to far beyond the hand books.

Well most of my post about the handbook entry was that it should work hand in hand together with feats, it shouldn't be the sole source. And there is a tolerance to it meaning plus or minus a bit as they use the word approximately quite a bit. But if feats consistently prove it wrong, then scrap it.

Like Wolverine shows all this fighting skill, years of combat. And I tell someone I'm debating against that he's a master of all forms of combat known to man. The rating backs it up.

Spider-man lifting 15 to 20 tons is believable because humans with adrenaline have lifted greater weights before. The cases where Peter has had to lift a great amount of weights were in dire need to not just save himself but other people as well.

And note that the handbook entry also says "lift approximately 10 tons" it doesn't' mean 10 tons on the dot. And they could be talking about in a calm state.

P.S. Ultimate Captain America's strength is at a 4, meaning superhuman.

His durability should be higher though.

#84 Posted by Shawnbaby (10790 posts) - - Show Bio
@slimj87d said:

P.S. Ultimate Captain America's strength is at a 4, meaning superhuman.

His durability should be higher though.


That Ultimate Cap entry there is a good example for me to specifically talk about one of the biggest reasons i dislike the Power Grid. Vagueness.

Under "Abilities and Accesories" he is listed as having Enhanced Speed...but his Speed Grid indicates a 2...which is defined as "normal". Clearly, he falls somewhere in the Gap between 2 and 3...but it's impossible to know exactly where. Also, the range of Strength 4 is just way to broad. It's like that Doppleganger entry you posted before...would it have killed anyone to put in an approximate Strength Level in the entry? Something like "Strength Level: Approx. 5 Tons". Regarding his durability...it probably falls somewhere in that Grey area between 3 and 4 which are both vaguely defined as "enhanced" and "regenerative" respectively. I understand they want to give the writers a little room to maneuver but they go a bit too far.

Another thing that bugs me is repetition of information. It doesn't tell me anything about the character that isn't already listed under Abilities and Accessories. I get that the Power Grid is meant to be used for quick reference (which is hampered by the overall vagueness)...but I can't help but feel that the space it takes up could have been better served going into more detail about things like his Strength, Speed, and Durability. I would really like to have those details rather than a vague chart that just visibly shows everything I just read.

#85 Posted by jashro44 (21923 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: Just to make sure (because I am tired right now so I am not 100% sure if I am reading correctly) but are you saying that Peter can lift 15-20 tons with adrenaline? Because I am referring to base strength.

Also about the grid a four on the grid puts you between 800ibs-25 tons (marvel really needs to make that more clear....)

For example wolverine is also rated as a four in strength and we know he isn't as strong as ultimate cap.

So it is possible to be enhanced and be a four on the grid. My point with ultimate cap is that they use the wording "enhanced" as opposed to super human which implies he is at the bottom end of the grid.