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#1 Posted by laflux (14940 posts) - - Show Bio

Ultimate Cap

Black Tarantula

Conditions

Standard Morals

No Prep

Standard Gear for Cap

Fight till KO, Death, Incap or Submission

Random Encounter

Location

#2 Posted by laflux (14940 posts) - - Show Bio
#3 Edited by logy5000 (5699 posts) - - Show Bio

This will be goooooooood.

I'm rooting for both of you!

#4 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio
#5 Posted by dondave (35890 posts) - - Show Bio

This is going to be Awesome

Online
#6 Edited by laflux (14940 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2

Right, thanks for letting me start off. First off, I would like to say that this a close match, closer than alot would actually believe. Still, I do think that Black Tarantula can get a majority over Ultimate Cap. One key element that we have to look at is feats. As addressed earlier, Black Tarantula does not have as many feats as say Ultimate Cap, but I do believe in quality over quantity (this is not to say that Cap's feats are not good), just that BT has a few very good feats. Perhaps more importantly, BT's feats are mainly against Spider-Man- a top tier street-leveler (if not slightly above), who has alot of feats. So, what I plan to do, is give a rundown of Spider-Man's physical prowess, and than compare it to his performances against Black Tarantula. This, I think would give a good indication of what BT is capable of and add weight to his own feats.

Spider-Man's strength

A common misconception is that Spider-Man is a 10 tonner. This I would first like to point out is false. Spider-Man has a plethora of feats at Base level, to indicate that he is closer to double that level in strength, which increases even further when he is under stress. This is to say that at rest he's around 20 tonnes at rest, which shoots up significantly under a drastic situation.

"Rest" Strength feats

Spider-Man dead-lifts and slams a tank into the ground and then swings another with enough force to completely decimate it. At first I thought this was an anomalous showing, but it was later revealed that the tanks were small tanks, which can weigh as little as 7 tonnes. If we take that as a minimum value, he's able to rag-doll seven tonnes rather easily. This indicates that his strength levels are probably considerably higher than just 10 tonnes.

Defeats Gargan Venom by pulling down a derelict building on him. That, even considering the building's state should require more than ten tonnes of force.

Destroys a building to relieve some steam

Made to be the size of a mouse, and still knocking out full sized people.

In fact, if we look at two statements concerning Spider-Man we can in fact see that he has got stronger over the years, which is in fact what Stan-Lee wanted to happen.

First statement, early 80's Spider-Man is said to able to lift around 10 tonnes. By the late 90's, Spider-Man describes himself as being able to lift hundreds of times his own body weight. This would logically equate to at least 200 times his own body weight. If we take Spider-Man's weight as 75 kg then 200 times that would be 15 tonnes as a minimum projection. And to top it of, bus models of that shown usually have weights of around 15 tonnes.

And all of these feats are ones down under little to no stress, and without straining himself. When trying harder Spider-Man has done the following

First scan, rips apart an apartment, second scan, sends Iron Man 2020 flying hundreds of feet into a building (in contruction) which is destroyed on impact and Third Scan lifts up a train

Before I move on to Spider-Man's fight with BT, I'd like to use his fight with a Vulked out Flash as a final reference point, to Peter fighting under high emotion (He was nigh morals off in that scene), and lacked his Spider-Sense.

The fight ended inconclusively, and Spider-Man was able to overpower Flash multiple times. He was hitting Venom hard enough to cause fissures in the ground which where overturning cars. As well as being able to tank an armored van being thrown at him with no injury to him (these weigh about 7 tonnes), and without being knocked over. All of these feats are above the "10 tonne threshold".

The purpose of separating Spider-Man Spider-Man Strength feats into "at rest" and "under duress" is because he had two main fights with BT. In the first one, Spider-Man wasn't taking the fight as seriously and paid the price. In the second fight, Spider-Man took the fight seriously and did do rather better, but was still at Black Tarantula's mercy by the end of it. These two set of Strength feats give us a good indication of BT was having to endure and what he had to overpower. But without further ado, onto to the battles.

First fight with Spider-Man

As we can see in the first four scans Black Tarantula also has the use of Eye-Beam attacks. Now due to Cap's durability, Speed and his shield this is not something which will be an absolute game changer- however it does give BT an ranged option. However, what is most significant about this battle is the last two scans

Here, Spider-Man starts to Speed-Blitz Black Tarantula. Before BT grabs him and two shots him. Him getting Speed-Blitzed by Spider-Man isn't so much of a bad thing on BT's part, first off because Spider-Man's punches were having no effect on him, and second off all, he was able to effortlessly grab Spider-Man when he wanted. Third of all its in BT's nature to tank attacks in order to put himself in a position to counter attack, but more on that later :)

I think we can safely assume that Spider-Man was probably hitting at forces comparable to those in the at rest scan. Not only was he quipping around, a feature shared with all the "at rest scans" I posted above. Spider-Man was also well aware of the strength of BT, so was unlikely to be pulling his punches to below the strength required in those "at rest scans".

Now for the second fight.

Now in the second fight Spider-Man takes the battle alot more seriously, and lasts for a longer period of time. However it is important that with his very first attack, Black Tarantula dislocates Spider-Man shoulder (which was able to hold up an armored car being thrown at it against flash), and actually doesn't press his advantage. Its perfectably feasible that if he wanted Spider-Man out of the way there and then, he could have. The battle also shows strength feats apart from fighting Peter. He able to throw a van with enough force to cause and explosion, tackle Spider-Man through a wall and rip through his impact webbing- something that Blob, a seventy tonner couldn't do. This battle does illustrate that Black Tarantula is slower than Spider-Man, but his high durability, skill and speed, enable him to get into positions to tag Spider-Man and deal heavy damage. The last scan says it all really.

From this battle, we can tell that Peter was not playing around. He knew what BT was capable of, gave his all, similar to what he did against Flash- with his Spider-Sense, and still was on the receiving end of a beating. I know Cap has a plethora of feats, but lolstomping someone of Spider-Man's level twice, is definitely something which means he should be taken seriously. After all, the general consensus is that Spider-Man vs Ult Cap is a close battle. Of course its foolhardy to go by solely ABC logic, but I do think BT has what it takes to win.

Fortunately, there is more to BT than just fighting Spider-Man. However, I don't want to play to unfair (thanks for the headstart), so I let you go now, before I reveal how BT would best go about beating Steve :P

#7 Edited by laflux (14940 posts) - - Show Bio
#8 Posted by logy5000 (5699 posts) - - Show Bio
#9 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux:

Its On!

Gear

Let me state what is Standard Gear for Cap. Shield, Assault Rifle, and Grenades.

Unlike 616 Cap this Cap has no morals in killing! He uses Guns with all the accuracy of a train Special Ops Vet.

He also is a expert in Grenade and grenade Throws. Accurate enough to plant a Grenade on wolverines Claws!

He also is a master with his Shield Tossing as 616 Cap. Strong enough to use his Shield to cut thru a Engin Black of a Copter as well Captain Britain Suit foes.

Durability

Ultimate Cap best feats in IMO is his pushment soaking. The reason why is no doubt to his Healing Factor combine with Durability.

.

Healing Factor recover faster than the top mind in Genetics Banner accounted for.

After the Hulk his HF allowed him to hold interviews after the fight and heal in a day.

Cap HF is so awsome that he fights of Vampirism where Nerd Hulk HF could not! In this scan it mentions how good it is.

Then we have straight Durability Hits.

.

Cap while Tranquilized still and doped up gets pummeled by Abomination. He still out fights the equal in stats Abdul.

cap is send flying at super speeds from blocking a hit from a enraged Thor. Through a Buildings Concrete Walls and everything! He is fine!

Cap tanks the Jet Wash of a ICBM Missile, then Grenades to the face blowing the CPU, then the Shockwave of the Atomic Blast.

I mean freaken Jeebus! This guys is a monster compared to Spider Man!

Strength

Raw Strength showings.

.

Scan 1) Curling major weight like nothing.

Scan 2) Matches Ultimate Spider Man who is a 9 toner. See how they both are shaking with the strain of eachother.

Scan 3) Catches a falling large Pine Tree that weighs easily 5 tons if not more.

Scan 4) Easily blocks a punch from the multi toner Valkyrie.

Speed

Cap speed, dodge, and block is all super speed in reaction.

.

Cap dodges rounds from a computer targeting AK-47.

Cap dodges train military fire from all angles.

Dodges gun fire all around him!

Cap Reacts to 2 Lightning attacks.

Reacts to Electric Attacks from a Silver Herald.

Cap has repeatably thru many feats reacted to gun fire and either outright dodge it or block it.

All stats combine!

Ultimate Cap has Striking feats that have beaten down 100 toners many times as well taken hits from said 100+ toners!

In this battle vs Hulk, cap Strikes with such strength and precision to put down Hulk for a short time. the only person to accomplish this same feat was Thor with his Hammer! Notice Cap is still ready for combat at the Hulk Pounding from the murdering, man eating, Ultimate Hulk.

After being shot with with tranqs, Cap still beats down SHIELD Agenst with Captain Britain Suits. How tough are they?

Strong enough to lift 60 ton Nukes! The Liberation Captain Brit Suits allowed them to lift over the Statue of Liberty!

It took a Iron Man Suit mach speed charge to put Cap down!

Ultimate Cap vs the 40 toner Hank Pym. Easy day. He even gets slam through a whole wooden building with not probs.

Cap takes a trashing from the 100+ toner Ultimate Juggernaut in stride and KOs the guy with one Shield Strike to the face!

I have more, the fact is Ultimate Cap Striking Power and Skill > to Spider Mans. Also I proven Cap can take far more punishment than Spider Man.

Fortunately, there is more to BT than just fighting Spider-Man. However, I don't want to play to unfair (thanks for the headstart), so I let you go now, before I reveal how BT would best go about beating Steve :P

I just not seeing it. This Post Alone is End Game for Black Tarantula lol. I have not included Skill, Tactics, or even Stamina Feats yet.

;) Tour Move.

#10 Posted by laflux (14940 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm out on the town tonight, but I'll put in a reply tomorrow. Good stuff though :P

#11 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: No need to post friend. I win. Simple as that. :P

Like wise am busy with many other debates and going out tonight. Dinner with the wife. Means no comics or Red Bulls for a month lol.

#12 Posted by laflux (14940 posts) - - Show Bio

There is alot to get through here, so rather than addressing everything you have made, I will break down your argument into generic points

Cap's feats verses Spider-Man's feats

Strength.

I think we can agree that Spider-Man is stronger than Cap. I know this doesn't mean everything, and Cap makes up for it somewhat in striking strength, but let just get that out of the way.

As for Cap overpowering the Captain Britain agents that's again impressive, but when consider Cap America's previous strength feats, such as engaging Ult Spider-Man in a pushing match, it is a somewhat anomalous feat. Also do you have any statements to prove the weights of those Rockets.

Also just asking? How strong is Ultimate Val. I know her origin is quite different from 616 (she started as a normal girl) but yeah, some info would be nice since I am a secret Val fan (suck it Sif fanboys and girls :P)

Striking Power

I think this our first major point of discontention. Cap's striking power, especially given the level of his superhuman strength is very impressive, but I don't see it as something Spider-Man hasn't by and large replicated. In the first Scan I gave images of a morals on Spider-Man one shotting people who were literally giants compared to him. That feat alone matches Ult Cap beating Giant Man up. In fact, it probably exceeds it, as he does it to multiple people in a shorter amount of time.

Some more Striking Feats for Spider-Man

Dismantles Rhino in Six Shots, an 80 tonner.

One-shots Tombstone, a being more durable than him, with a single blow. Tombstone withstood a building leveling explosion and laugh it off. He survived a multi-story fall with Spider-Man, and took it better than he did. His bio says he's durable to high caliber rounds as is Rhino

As for putting down the Hulk, that's impressive, but it is completely different from actually knocking out the Hulk. And Spider-Man himself has knocked down the Hulk as well.

First scan, staggers the Hulk for long enough to web him up- though the hulk wasn't at full strength. Second Scan, Spider-Man sends Prof Hulk flying with a suplex move and angers him with his punches. Just to note that though Prof Hulk is the weakest of the 616 Hulks, he was being amped by a gamma virus, explained here.

Does this mean that Spider-Man should have ice cube chance in hell of defeating the Hulk in combat? Of course not, and I'm not going to insult you or the voters intelligence by posting scans Spider-Man defeating the Hulk in Spider-Man Unlimited #11. But it is comparable to Cap being able to briefly bring down Ult Hulk.

Finally Ko'ing Ultimate Juggernaut is impressive, but he was depowered, so it is unknown how much of his original power he had. A triceratops weighs about the same as elephant, and that was able to cause him a few problems. In anycase, a partially depowered 616 Juggernaut was able to hold his own against WW Hulk for a while. If Ult Juggernaut was on the same level, I wager on plot having something to do with that feat.

Spider-Man as I posted earlier fought Iron Man 2020. I posted the scan of him destroying a building as a result of punching him. This is what happened in the rest of the fight.

Spider-Man completely dominates him. Iron Man 2020 is supposed to be an improvement on the classic Iron Man suit, which was already a 100 tonner.

some classic Iron Man feats

Now, I don't think this is an accurate representation of how Spider-Man should perform against Iron Man, not at all, but it does show that Spider-Man does have those high end feats, comparable to Ult Cap. I also don't think that Cap beating down 100 tonners should be an accurate depiction of his consistent performances.

The way I see it, Spider-Man's striking feats are at very least comparable. Spider-Man uses his greater Speed and Raw strength (as evidenced in the high amount of environmental damage he causes when he doesn't hold back) to inflict comparable amount of damage to Ult Cap, who makes up for his less imposing physicality with greater skill and localizing his attacks to more vulnerable areas.

Speed

I conceded that Ult Cap is probably faster than BT, or at least uses his Speed better, so no worries there.

Durability and Healing.

Spider-Man's durability is within the ranges of Cap, with Cap being slightly more durable. I would admit that Cap heals faster from Penetrative damage, but since BT doesn't role that way, its fine

Takes a sustained beating from an Enraged Rhino, an 80 Tonner. He's still on his feet and doesn't get Ko'ed.

Spider-Man endures the poison chemicals, the reduced Oxygen content from being in the outer atmosphere, the freezing cold temperatures from being in the outer atmosphere and the resulting explosion, all without being killed. What makes this feat even more impressive is that Spider-Man was dying due to the influence of the Other, so was not at full health when he performed this feat.

Knocked through three building by Mister Negative and falls multiple stories to ground and was still not Ko'ed.

Endures the explosion of a doom-bot- said by the writers to explode with the force of a hand grenade, without much issue. In Sins Past, Spider-Man took an explosion which completely decimated a building point blank, and still survived, not long after giving up more than half of his blood for a transfusion. If Cap is more durable than Spider-Man, its not by much.

So what does this mean when Compared to Black Tarantula?

I think that I have given enough evidence to prove that Spider-Man is considerably stronger than Ultimate Cap based on lifting and environmental damage caused by punches he gives when he isn't pulling them. His striking feats are at least comparable based on feats, and in durability, they are comparably. Now if we look at those facts, that means that Cap is going to have a tough time of it going H2H with Black Tarantula. The overwhelming evidence in Spider-Man's two battles was that Spider-Man was unable to get through BT's durability, and I think its perfectly feasible that Cap would struggle as well in that regard. Black Tarantula was able to effortlessly get past Spider-Man's durability, which is pretty high. I don't think its too much of a stretch to assume that he couldn't do the same to Cap.

The strength advantage is another key one as well. Ult Cap often likes to get in close and fight in close proximity in order to hit characters in vulnerable areas. For someone like Black Tarantula this is a God send. Black Tarantula thrives on being hit, soaking up punches and then using his Super-Human speed to counter quickly, as seen in his first and second fights against Spider-Man

First fight

Second fight

This something he has also done to other opponents as well

Black Tarantula is more than happy to counter attack Ultimate Captain America, and endure being hit. This scan along with the others shows he has enough about him to take the damage, and is fast enough to counter (Ult Cap ain't quicker than Spider-Man). Ultimate Captain America largely attacks via blunt trauma, something BT can handle. The only form of Penetrative Damage he would be able to deal against BT would be in form of a Shield Chop, what he did the the Chutari Skrull Commander.

However he was more than happy to go in close. With Black Tarantula this would be alot more hazardous as Black Tarantula is stronger and could easily wrestle it off him in close quarters. Cap often uses the Shield to enhance his blows, so this would be a disaster.

Now, the Alternative to Ult Cap going to engaging BT at range with Assault rifle fire and grenades. However these things are unlikely to work due to his durability and healing

Gets shot point blank multiple times, recovers nearly instantly and quickly kills the fodder.

As for the Grenades........

He was caught in the middle of a massive explosion and tanked it without issue. Cap is going to have to get in close to take out BT, and given his previous battles, that's something he wouldn't mind doing.

All in all to round up, to state that Ult Cap would beat Black Tarantula is to state that Ult Cap is by quite a way superior to Spider-Man. Based on feats, that's something which I don't think is true. And if all of these feats are not enough, Spider-Man even admitted such himself.

Note how he says that BT is faster than him. Now I gave Cap the Benefit of the doubt by stating that he's faster, as he has more feats of speed due to dodging projectiles and such. But that's because he rarely needs to. And if he is able to tag Spider-Man continually, he should be able to do so to Ult Cap :)

I don't mind going to votes after your next post, its up to you :)

#13 Posted by laflux (14940 posts) - - Show Bio
#14 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux:

Cap's feats verses Spider-Man's feats

I think this is the wrong way to about it here. simply becuase BT is not Spider Man. He has no Spider sense, no way of the Spider Training, and unlike Spider Man who has Power Boost and decrease from 9 toner to 20 toner BT seem steady. Some of the feats in here look like 20 Toner Spider Man. Was Spider Man 20 toner vs BT or 9 Toner vs BT? This is important stuff.

I think we can agree that Spider-Man is stronger than Cap. I know this doesn't mean everything, and Cap makes up for it somewhat in striking strength, but let just get that out of the way.

As for Cap overpowering the Captain Britain agents that's again impressive, but when consider Cap America's previous strength feats, such as engaging Ult Spider-Man in a pushing match, it is a somewhat anomalous feat. Also do you have any statements to prove the weights of those Rockets.

Pushing Spidey is impressive as is lifting a easy 5-7 ton Pine Tree. His stricking Feats base on Shield and Skill is what tops him.

As for the Rocket weights.... Uuugh your going to make me do math.

This ICBM Missile is a Older Russian Missile sold to other Countries and looks to match the Picture.

The Smaller SS-8

It weighs 190,000 lbs or 95,000 Tons.....

Fell better? Cap beat down 95,000 toners lol. All serious the Cap Britain suits are 100+ toners, simple as that.

Also just asking? How strong is Ultimate Val. I know her origin is quite different from 616 (she started as a normal girl) but yeah, some info would be nice since I am a secret Val fan (suck it Sif fanboys and girls :P)

On Valkery her best feat was actually blocking a blood lusted Thor Hammer blow without giving a inch, lol. So never mind her strength, as she has very little and I assume she is around the Multi ton strength level of the rest of the Ultimate Asgardians.

Striking Power

I think this our first major point of discontention. Cap's striking power, especially given the level of his superhuman strength is very impressive, but I don't see it as something Spider-Man hasn't by and large replicated. In the first Scan I gave images of a morals on Spider-Man one shotting people who were literally giants compared to him. That feat alone matches Ult Cap beating Giant Man up. In fact, it probably exceeds it, as he does it to multiple people in a shorter amount of time.

I just dont see the points of comparing Spidey Striking feats to BTs. BT may be stronger than Pete, but not a striker.

Cap for example has Skill and allows him to hot harder than Ultimate Pete. Even though strength wise they are near same with Ultimate Pete being Stronger but weaker striker.

My case here. 616 Spidey Striking feats mean nothing in relation to BT stricking feats. Also Spider Man has straight out PIS feats with 60+ years of Comics.

Once in every ten years the guy pulls off a 100 toner feat. Its BS.

At least Caps feats are Legit by KOing 100 toners more than 4 times in a 10 year time frame.. More Consistent.

Dismantles Rhino in Six Shots, an 80 tonner.

Rhino also Jobs bad to Captain America (1 toner lol) and Luke Cage (25 Toner) he JOBS all the time.

As for putting down the Hulk, that's impressive, but it is completely different from actually knocking out the Hulk. And Spider-Man himself has knocked down the Hulk as well.

Its more realistic than Spidey KOing Fire Lord.....

In this Cap uses his dirty fighting of throat hits and nut kicks to put Hulk down.

First scan, staggers the Hulk for long enough to web him up- though the hulk wasn't at full strength. Second Scan, Spider-Man sends Prof Hulk flying with a suplex move and angers him with his punches. Just to note that though Prof Hulk is the weakest of the 616 Hulks, he was being amped by a gamma virus, explained here.

So Spider Man who had NO real skill or training is simply Blow for Blow beating Hulks.... sounds legit I guess.....

Does this mean that Spider-Man should have ice cube chance in hell of defeating the Hulk in combat? Of course not, and I'm not going to insult you or the voters intelligence by posting scans Spider-Man defeating the Hulk in Spider-Man Unlimited #11. But it is comparable to Cap being able to briefly bring down Ult Hulk.

Not really at all. Cap has Skill, training, and consistent feats to do so. Spider simply does not and is full of PIS when he has trouble with Lizard (12 toner) and then Koing Fire Lord and Hulks..... Its flat out stupid PIS/WIS to make Spider Man popular and stay in the spot light.

Cap has logical reason to and consistent feats too.

Finally Ko'ing Ultimate Juggernaut is impressive, but he was depowered, so it is unknown how much of his original power he had. A triceratops weighs about the same as elephant, and that was able to cause him a few problems. In anycase, a partially depowered 616 Juggernaut was able to hold his own against WW Hulk for a while. If Ult Juggernaut was on the same level, I wager on plot having something to do with that feat.

He was not depowered at all. He was base level 100+ toner that KOed Ultimate Colossus who benches 1000s of tons. He was empowered by the Ruby of Cuttorak making him more. Then bleeded that power over time. He was still Base 100+ toner.

Also it seems legit as Cap went for the face with his Shield to KO Juggs.

As shown the Shield in combat generates more Power than ANY OTHER weapon in history.

Makes more sense than the PIS of Spidey handling Hulk with a Suplex......

Spider-Man as I posted earlier fought Iron Man 2020. I posted the scan of him destroying a building as a result of punching him. This is what happened in the rest of the fight.

Spider-Man completely dominates him. Iron Man 2020 is supposed to be an improvement on the classic Iron Man suit, which was already a 100 tonner.

Another Example of no explanation at all or logical reason at all why Spidet would put out that kind of power when he is a 9 toner.

Now, I don't think this is an accurate representation of how Spider-Man should perform against Iron Man, not at all, but it does show that Spider-Man does have those high end feats, comparable to Ult Cap. I also don't think that Cap beating down 100 tonners should be an accurate depiction of his consistent performances.

Cap has a excuse, he has Super Strength, Training, a Shield, and Does Not Hold Back!]

Whats Spider Man Excuse?

Speed

I conceded that Ult Cap is probably faster than BT, or at least uses his Speed better, so no worries there.

I think so too as Cap without Spider Sense is doing the same as Spider Man with Spider sense.

Durability and Healing.

I think everything you listed pales to Captain America Durability and stamina.

Cap Swims Miles of Ocean Current, Up the River, and then runs the City full of Terrorist Black Hawk Down style. Taking out a heavy majority with a few Grenades and his Shield!

How about this one?

Cap is Drugged and Tranqed. He then is Freed by Wasp and decimates Schizo Man who has Mutiple Mans power. Then he takes a Thrashing from Abomination!

Then after all this fights the equal in Stats Abdul, Loki Reality Warping Magic made them equals, who was also quite skilled. Cap wins in a easy fight.

Or this Feat?

Cap is Starved, Beaten, Tortured, and Bleed of 6 Pints of Blood for over a week time.

Yet he still manages to beat Nuke who has just as much training and slightly stats!

I mean when Spidey top these in durability, Healing, and Stamina?

So what does this mean when Compared to Black Tarantula?

I think that I have given enough evidence to prove that Spider-Man is considerably stronger than Ultimate Cap based on lifting and environmental damage caused by punches he gives when he isn't pulling them. His striking feats are at least comparable based on feats, and in durability, they are comparably. Now if we look at those facts, that means that Cap is going to have a tough time of it going H2H with Black Tarantula. The overwhelming evidence in Spider-Man's two battles was that Spider-Man was unable to get through BT's durability, and I think its perfectly feasible that Cap would struggle as well in that regard. Black Tarantula was able to effortlessly get past Spider-Man's durability, which is pretty high. I don't think its too much of a stretch to assume that he couldn't do the same to Cap.

I really dont think so. Cap has the Gear and Talent. He has the Striking Feats, No Morals in Combat, and Skill.

The strength advantage is another key one as well. Ult Cap often likes to get in close and fight in close proximity in order to hit characters in vulnerable areas. For someone like Black Tarantula this is a God send. Black Tarantula thrives on being hit, soaking up punches and then using his Super-Human speed to counter quickly, as seen in his first and second fights against Spider-Man

Can BT tank a Grenade in his Mouth? Doubt it. How about cut in half?

Black Tarantula is more than happy to counter attack Ultimate Captain America, and endure being hit. This scan along with the others shows he has enough about him to take the damage, and is fast enough to counter (Ult Cap ain't quicker than Spider-Man). Ultimate Captain America largely attacks via blunt trauma, something BT can handle. The only form of Penetrative Damage he would be able to deal against BT would be in form of a Shield Chop, what he did the the Chutari Skrull Commander.

However he was more than happy to go in close. With Black Tarantula this would be alot more hazardous as Black Tarantula is stronger and could easily wrestle it off him in close quarters. Cap often uses the Shield to enhance his blows, so this would be a disaster.

Stronger? Base on what? Beating up Spider who is 9 toner?

This guy took a Fighter Jet thru the gut into Jet Fuel! He had his Head blown in 2! He had the strength to manhandle Cap and break thru 2 feet of Steel Door!

Cap beat this guy with the Shield Chop and technical fighting.

This Alien is so tough it gave Hulk a small fight till Hulk ate him!

Cap engaged this superior foe and came on top. after years in the Ultimate World, he has only gotten better!

Now, the Alternative to Ult Cap going to engaging BT at range with Assault rifle fire and grenades. However these things are unlikely to work due to his durability and healing

The point is to slow BT down. Gun Fire in the face will do that as the Super Healing and Adamntium lace Wolverine will tell ya.

Or how about Grenade to the face?

The point of these attacks is to slow a Healing Factor Foe down, Stun them, so Cap has a solid opening.

Also Ultimate wolverine Durability and Healing Feats >>>> Black Trants.

Gets shot point blank multiple times, recovers nearly instantly and quickly kills the fodder.

As for the Grenades........

He was caught in the middle of a massive explosion and tanked it without issue. Cap is going to have to get in close to take out BT, and given his previous battles, that's something he wouldn't mind doing.

Cap as I showed use these weapons to perfectly get a opening or slow down a person like BT.

All in all to round up, to state that Ult Cap would beat Black Tarantula is to state that Ult Cap is by quite a way superior to Spider-Man. Based on feats, that's something which I don't think is true. And if all of these feats are not enough, Spider-Man even admitted such himself.

What you believe is Spider Man is superior to Cap, Which other than a few tons more in strength is true. Other than that, Ultimate Cap is equal if not superior in Durability.

Now try making a case for BT who has no High End PIS feats or Spider Sense.

Note how he says that BT is faster than him. Now I gave Cap the Benefit of the doubt by stating that he's faster, as he has more feats of speed due to dodging projectiles and such. But that's because he rarely needs to. And if he is able to tag Spider-Man continually, he should be able to do so to Ult Cap :)

I think Caps Shield and Skill as well natural Speed compensates. Also I think the weapons use on BT will slow him down like they did to Wolverine.

We can go to votes after your comeback. Your at a disadvantage in Scans so I will let you at least counter.

#15 Edited by laflux (14940 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

I kinda feel that I may have not explained a few things, in the last two posts. But I also get the feeling that I'm being unfairly paraphrased. Probably not intentional, but I'm grateful to have the oppurtinity to clear some things up. Like before, I going to break down reply in generic points, rather than answer each independent query.

Query concerning the Strength Level of Spider-Man

Now this could confusing to some, I must admit. First of Spider-Man has never been a 9 tonner according to entries. His original and current rating according to the handbooks is that of a 10 tonner. He got an amp to fifteen tonnes according handbooks during the queen storyline in 2004, and a further amp to 20-25 tonnes during the Other arc after defeating Morlun. These upgrades were retconned away due to the Brand New Day story line in 2008. Spider-Man fought Black Tarantula during the late 90's, around 1996, when his handbook rating was 10 tonnes, so the vast majority strength feats I posted were from Spider-Man without any amps.

Tank feat was during Marcfalane's run in the 90's.

Fighting Gargan Venom- admittedly had queen mutation power-up.

Destroying a Building to let up steam- JMS run, during the early 2000's.

Knocking out full-sized people while size of mouse- Classic Spider-Man.

Lifting up Bus- 1999.

Lifting Train- Again Marcfalane's Run.

Fighting Iron Man 2020 and destroying Building- Classic Spider-Man.

Fighting Flash Venom- Post Brand New Day era (Spider-Man actually didn't have his Spider-Sense but details details)

I could give other examples of Spider-Man being trapped under tens of tonnes of rubble and lifting it off, using his body as landing gear, all. lifting a giant military helicopter without enhancements and at base levels.

Point is from these feats in that the handbooks are wrong. Spider-Man is unfairly labelled as 10 tonner, when he has consistently proven that he is a considerable margin above that. I gave multiple instances of him being above that both in a relaxed state and under duress. That's consistent and not PIS. Furthermore, if you look at Spider-Man's feats from the Other and Queen, there not that much different from him being without the enhancement. Spider-Man being considerably stronger really comes from handbooks, which are sometimes wrong. Handbooks had classic Doc Samson as a 25 tonner, when the guy routinely went up against Hulk by himself, and lifted a library. Doesn't surprise me, that they would be wrong about Spider-Man then too.

Query concerning High End Feats from Spider-Man and Ult Cap's High end feats

First off, with I all the high end feats, I included context to them. With the Hulk feats I said that Spider-Man stands zero chance in defeating the Hulk, and I'm a teeny bit annoyed that I'm being stated as otherwise. What I said, is that Spider-Man has done what Cap has done to Hulk and managed to get him off his feet. Neither beat Hulk, and honestly, neither should. I even said flat out that posting Spider-Man beating Hulk in Spider-Man unlimited is an "insult to you and the voters intelligence".

I also said that Spider-Man should have not beaten Iron Man 2020- and I originally only posted the striking feat which destroyed the building. I also deliberately avoided Spider-Man beating Firelord. That's plain rubbish, and to be honest, if someone was debating in my place and posted that feat, I'd feel he was throwing the match. What I was saying both have high end feats which we shouldn't use to solely base their abilities. Considering Ult Cap's strength range, its uncharacteristic for him to be able to overpower multiple 100 tonner Cap Britain's (The tranquilizer part of that feat is sound, as it has been stated before hand he has immunity). I'll stand by my statement that I'm skeptical of Ult Cap Ko'ing Juggernaut, but even in that case, he didn't do it immeaditaely, and had help.

Both are titular characters in their universe, so will have incidents where they have very high end showings and fairly regularly. During the 80's alone Spider-Man defeated Firelord, Defeated Titania, fought and overpowered Titania while fighting Absorbing Man (both had recently but She-Hulk in hospital), so he had to cheat by endangering innocents and evaded the X-Men Did I include those feats? No. You have to have restraint when choosing feats, which is what I did.

Query concerning use of Spider-Man feats to judge the capabilities of Black Tarantula.

First off, I can understand to an extent why doing this in the wrong way could be well, wrong. But note, I have not once tried to use Spider-Man's speed, Way of Spider Training or Spider-Sense to say Black Tarantula had these abilities. In fact, if you look closely, there is barely any mention of Spider-Man's Speed and Spider-Sense feat at all. When BT fought Spider-Man, he had no Way of the Spider training, and all the fights and feats from Spider-Man did not show him utilizing those skills. I actually said Ult Cap was faster than BT, but what I said is that BT fights in a completely different way to Spider-Man and focuses on counter-attacking, and gave three separate incidents of him doing so- (Four if you include the fight with fodder).

I only looked at Spider-Man's strength consistent feats and durability (in situations of calm and duress with strength), then looked at his fights against BT, both when he was joking around and taking the fight seriously, to match the those two instances of strength feats. I then made the very logical assumption that BT was very much stronger than Spider-Man, and has greater punching power as he was able to overcome Peter's considerable durability with ease. I don't feel that's wrong at all, to say that BT is far more durable and powerful that Peter, who himself is quite powerful, so poses a significant threat to Ult Cap. In Peter's words, he's "Supercharged" compared to him in at Resilience and Physical power.

Oh and that robot he was wrecking? It was made of Titanium. Spider-Man had to strain really hard to break Doc Ock's Titanium arms, BT was doing so without breaking a sweat. Says alot about BT's striking power compared to Peter's

General Queries

I still maintain that Grenades and bullets will have little effect on BT. A massive explosion is more powerful than a grenade, and as for Ultimate Wolverine falling to them that bad writing in my Opinion. In Ultimatum, Ultimate Wolverine is completely incinerated by a combination of Iron Man's repulsor blasts and Cyclops optics, and still is able to charge forward and stab Ultimate Magneto. He's survived being ripped in half and climbing up a mountain. He has had limbs routinely ripped off, as well as being decapitated. Bullet and Grenade fire should not take him out so easily.

To conclude

BT is far stronger and resilient than Peter. He's a bit slower than Spider-Man based on feats, but that hasn't stopped him from tagging Peter multiple times. He's a smart fighter, who has enough resilience to take Cap's assaults and counter quickly. He may have a bit of a ranged disadvantage, but his eye beams make up for that somewhat, and in anycase Ult Cap will have to get in close, which he won't mind doing. From their, its unlikely he would win. BT has an obvious physical advantage in strength and for me in durability, and unlike many Brick Ult Cap has faced, is more than quick enough to use it. Its not unfeasible for him to disarm cap of shield, or grab him and continually pummel him like he did to Cap.

Again to state that Ult Cap beats BT is to state that Ult Cap is by far and away superior in striking power and durability to Peter- and I believe based on feats that's simply not true. There has been CaV's on Comicvine with Ult Cap vs Spider-Man, in which a valid argument could be for both. I think its fairly common logic then, to state that BT could beat Ult Cap for majority.

But its up for you viners to decide (if you can get through the wall of text)......................................

@god_spawn @nick_hero22 @jashro44 @vance_astro @strider92 @beatboks1 @killemall @esquire @floopay @backflip@shawnbaby

@joygirl

@super_soldierxii @theacidskull @k4tzm4n @slimj87d @deranged_midget @nickzambuto @tomlikesfries @youngjustice@thundergodswrath @citizenbane @fetts

Will you help settle another battle in the long standing war between Laflux and CadenceV2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#16 Posted by Mortium (666 posts) - - Show Bio

Um, how do I vote?

#17 Edited by laflux (14940 posts) - - Show Bio

@mortium: Easy, just say the name of who you thought gave the better argument. That's all :)

#18 Posted by Mortium (666 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok. laflux.

#19 Posted by Dredeuced (5464 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok, I got done reading this and I'm seriously at a deadlock. From what I can tell. BT's got the speed to easily and consistently tag cap based on the fact that he pounded the hell out of Spidey and seems to be a solid amount physically stronger than him (which, by Marvel's own metric, is how they judge striking strength), but Cap's got durability and gear (shield, mostly) edge to make up for it if they stand there and slug it out.

Man, I dunno, I guess I'll give a 5.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000005/10 edge to @laflux. I really liked the way he presented his argument and prefaced each of his feats.

Nothing against you, @cadencev2, you know I love ya.

#20 Posted by laflux (14940 posts) - - Show Bio

2-0

#21 Posted by God_Spawn (37556 posts) - - Show Bio

Laflux.

Moderator
#22 Edited by laflux (14940 posts) - - Show Bio

3-0

#23 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok, I got done reading this and I'm seriously at a deadlock. From what I can tell. BT's got the speed to easily and consistently tag cap based on the fact that he pounded the hell out of Spidey and seems to be a solid amount physically stronger than him (which, by Marvel's own metric, is how they judge striking strength), but Cap's got durability and gear (shield, mostly) edge to make up for it if they stand there and slug it out.

Man, I dunno, I guess I'll give a 5.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000005/10 edge to @laflux. I really liked the way he presented his argument and prefaced each of his feats.

Nothing against you, @cadencev2, you know I love ya.

No probs. Cap still wins in my book. Guy took out the Avengers. LOL

#24 Posted by Saren (25552 posts) - - Show Bio
Moderator
#25 Posted by laflux (14940 posts) - - Show Bio

4-0

#26 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

4-0

Wow, I think I made a good case debate wise. I think everyone just upset that I have almost no respect for 616 Spider Man and it shows :/.

#27 Edited by laflux (14940 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Honestly, I don't think its should be a 4-0. I will admit, I was very much up for this debate and replied very quickly, compared to other debates. And If I'm being honest, I do think I was trying extra hard after you beat me in Esquire's Super Power Tourney. I do think that though Spider-Man is popular, the voters here are fair and respected debaters.

Do you want to do an Ultimate vs Image/Valiant battle. I've picked up Bloodshot, and as I'm sure your aware I'm a big Luther Strode fan. These characters are less well-known, so that should come less into it.........

#28 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

@cadencev2: Honestly, I don't think its should be a 4-0. I will admit, I was very much up for this debate and replied very quickly, compared to other debates. And If I'm being honest, I do think I was trying extra hard after you beat me in Esquire's Super Power Tourney. I do think that though Spider-Man is popular, the voters here are fair and respected debaters.

Do you want to do an Ultimate vs Image/Valiant battle. I've picked up Bloodshot, and as I'm sure your aware I'm a big Luther Strode fan. These characters are less well-known, so that should come less into it.........

I think people dislike a hater in general and that always affects votes.

I love to do one. I would use Cap again and Spider Man.

#29 Posted by k4tzm4n (38552 posts) - - Show Bio
Staff
#30 Edited by laflux (14940 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n said:

@mortium said:

Ok. laflux.

5-0

and I hope that this vote isn't because of my recent love for Valiant and Luther Strode :P

#31 Posted by k4tzm4n (38552 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: Ha, no. No disrespect to the other debater, but I think you did a more thorough job addressing the key points.

Staff
#32 Edited by SlimJ87D (9576 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Awesome man, you used the Spartan video to show how underrated a shield bash and slash is. It's a very dangerous weapon, people need to know that.

#33 Edited by laflux (14940 posts) - - Show Bio

5-1.

#34 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

@cadencev2: Awesome man, you used the Spartan video to show how underrated a shield bash and slash is. It's a very dangerous weapon, people need to know that.

for schizzle.

#35 Posted by logy5000 (5699 posts) - - Show Bio

Laflux. My hat tips to both of you, though.

#36 Posted by laflux (14940 posts) - - Show Bio

6-1

#37 Edited by dondave (35890 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
#38 Posted by laflux (14940 posts) - - Show Bio

7-1

#39 Edited by tomlikesfries (4638 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think I had ever read one of your debates before Laflux. Or had I? My memory fails me. Either way, you did one hell of a good job, as did Cadence. I gotta side with you (laflux) though. Kudos to both of you for the great read.

#40 Posted by laflux (14940 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think I had ever read one of your debates before Laflux. Or had I? My memory fails me. Either way, you did one hell of a good job, as did Cadence. I gotta side with you (laflux) though. Kudos to both of you for the great read.

Well there is a first time for everything :P

#41 Posted by laflux (14940 posts) - - Show Bio

8-1

#42 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

8-1

Stop keeping track, its making me sick...... bluuuuuaaaagh

#43 Edited by New_World_Order (12895 posts) - - Show Bio
#44 Edited by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

Finally finished reading this. Thank you both for making my head spin trying to make this decision. I would egde it to laflux by a majority of 5 1/ 9,000,000,000,000 out of 10.

#45 Edited by laflux (14940 posts) - - Show Bio

10-1 game set match :P

#46 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

Got to give it to Laflux. He made one of the prettiest debates I've ever seen.

#47 Edited by SlimJ87D (9576 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:I think what honestly hurt your debate was a lot of your scans were in "spoiler" tags. People might have breezes through and scrolled passed them. Such as Cap's healing factor which was in there could have easily been looked over. And Thor hitting him across the city.

And I think you're missing the whole fight with the Avengers too. These are huge feats right here. That whole fight show cased that he's durable enough to jump and fall from high story buildsings and kick over a full metal truck denting it. He's also fast and skilled enough to block shots from one of the best comic book marksman AFTER THE TRANQS were fired and have them bounce back and tranquilize Hawkeye.

Was a good debate though. I still voted for you just because you had a lot more scans that backed up your reasoning and logic.

#48 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire: @thundergodswrath: @dondave: @logy5000: @k4tzm4n: @citizenbane: @god_spawn:

Alright this is nuts. I need some reason please for future reference of how I screwed this up so bad that its a 10-1 vote. I never did that bad.

What was the turn off debate wise? Me having no respect for 616 Spider Man? The Spoiler Tags as @slimj87d: suggested? Give some reasons so I never make that mistake again of how I lost this. I honestly think I did a great Job and establish the consistent feats of Cap bashing 60+ toners without half the gear he has here.

@slimj87d said:

@cadencev2:I think what honestly hurt your debate was a lot of your scans were in "spoiler" tags. People might have breezes through and scrolled passed them. Such as Cap's healing factor which was in there could have easily been looked over. And Thor hitting him across the city.

And I think you're missing the whole fight with the Avengers too. These are huge feats right here. That whole fight show cased that he's durable enough to jump and fall from high story buildsings and kick over a full metal truck denting it. He's also fast and skilled enough to block shots from one of the best comic book marksman AFTER THE TRANQS were fired and have them bounce back and tranquilize Hawkeye.

Was a good debate though. I still voted for you just because you had a lot more scans that backed up your reasoning and logic.

Thanks man. I thought I did a pretty good job and put effort in it. Something went terribly wrong though.... I would expect this from a character like Spider Man, but Black Tarantula who on this debate relied on being compared to Spider Man?! I must did something horribly wrong.

#50 Edited by k4tzm4n (38552 posts) - - Show Bio

I already answered that. I think he did a more thorough job address key points in this battle.

Staff