Ult. Bending Tournament - Dane vs JediWaffles - Battles

#1 Edited by Dane (10162 posts) - 10 months, 16 days ago - Show Bio

Preface (please read)

As with most tournament debates, don't debate if your name isn't in the title. After debating has concluded, the thread will be open for voting.

Please vote for the participant that you feel debated the best for their team.

The Arena:

The Ultimate Bending Championship Battles will take place in a Coliseum type arena pictured below. The entire field is made of Earth and has dimensions of approx. 200 meters x 100 meters. Things designated with blue are channels/pools of water, with platinum grates over them. (Like where Katara captures Azula.) Brown squares are pillars of rock (like where Aang first faces Combustion Man), and black squares are metal posts with cables hanging from them (sort of like power lines). The outer walls are black and are 50 feet tall and made of platinum.

Teams

Gaoling Glowflys (Dane)

Water: Kya (Katara Clone)
Earth: Aang
Fire: Sozin
Wildcard: Asami Sato
Non-bender: Amon

JediWaffles

Water: Pakku
Earth: Bumi
Fire: Combustion Man
Wildcard: Tenzin
Non-bender: Metal-bending Cops (3)

#2 Edited by Dane (10162 posts) - 10 months, 16 days ago - Show Bio

@JediWaffles:

Basic breakdown of how I see things:

You have quite a few powerful benders but all of your team are really only good at one thing; powerful direct attacks. Pakku and Bumi are both good at launching powerful attacks, Tenzin less so and Combustion Man really only has one attack (direct, explosive). Although the first 3 are clearly masters of their bending arts, none of them learned particularly advanced techniques. Pakku never learned to bloodbend, Bumi never learned to metalbend, etc. I don't think I ever saw Combustion Man use actual direct fire bending and certainly never lightning bending. He just shot grenades from his mind. That is honestly the inherent difference between your team and mine: utility in attacks. It will come down to your admittedly powerful direct attacks vs my teams superior overall skill. Here is why that works for me:

Your Team
-The metal-bending cops are pointless. I can prove that if you want but any member of my team is going to one shot them. Amon and Asami would eat them for breakfast solo in seconds.

-Combustion Man is in a room full of pillars and I have one of the better defensively-minded benders of all time: Aang. He alone makes Combustion Man pointless. He can spring earth-barriers to protect his teammates and he has the exact mindset and personality to do that. Aside from Sozin, all of my team have fantastic dodging feats. If Amon or Asami get close to Combustion Man, he's done. The guy is a one trick pony and there are two people on my team who already know what the trick is. It's pretty certain Aang and Kya will inform the others of how his powers work and after that, they aren't that impressive when you consider Amon/Asami's speed. Sozin is also a more powerful fire bender with a lot more skill.

-Tenzin is never shown to have the same level of Airbending power that Aang had. His command of airbending is impressive for his time but the power of his blasts are matched or exceeded by Korra the first time she ever airbends. He's just not that good. His airbending might allow him to dodge long enough to be the last man standing, but I don't see him taking down anyone on my team. If Amon comes for him, it'll be all over.

-Pakku is a strong waterbender, but Kya (Katara) is shown to be directly superior in the show. She just does things that he can't do and learned from a much wider variety of masters. He has no particular feats outside large water blasts and theres nothing to suggest he could tag or defeat anyone on my team.

-Bumi is probably shown bending the most earth in the show, but he never shows the range of skills that someone like Lin or Toph has. Similarly he never shows the radar-sense that Toph, Lin and Aang all use while earth-bending. The show consistently demonstrates that the overall power used is rarely enough to win. Bumi is skilled, no denying it. But he isn't necessarily the one who would walk away from a battle against anyone on my team because of that. He lacks overall utility.

My Team
-Kya (Katara) basically I don't think you have anyone who could beat Katara in her prime, even without her bloodbending. She was better than Pakku while she was still a student. If she was close enough to Combustion Man she would flash-freeze him. If she hid behind a pillar (of which there are many) she could use the water in the grate near him to flash-freeze him. No one else on your team would have a chance. The only thing I would say she couldn't avoid is lightning bending and you don't have one of those.

-Aang, as the avatar has a lot of feats. I chose him as an Earthbender mostly because he has the same radar-sense as Toph, he has a defensive and protective dynamic in a team and honestly, watch that fight with Ozai. He was hanging with a Sozin's Comet enhanced fire lord using just Earthbending for defensive/offensive purposes. I really doubt even Bumi or Toph could have held Ozai back in that situation. And we have seen from LoK that the forms of airbending can be used to deftly avoid attacks without actually bending air. Again, I think the only one Aang couldn't beat directly is Combustion Man and really he only has to distract him long enough for Asami or Amon to wreck him up close. We saw in the show that Aang can avoid Combustion Man's blasts for a *very* long time, especially if pillars are in play.

-Sozin, I feel he is going to get lowballed here because he has few showings. But I will say this: He appeared in one episode and he was very clearly the most powerful firebender of his time, if not all time (from what we've seen). His blasts of fire against Roku were more powerful than anything we saw outside Sozin's Comet enhanced benders. Roku wouldn't even use firebending against him and Roku was raised a firebender. That should tell you something about this guy. He was not shown lightning bender, but he clearly had incredible control over firebending and heat in general. He removed the heat entirely from lava with one hand and released the heat as steam with the other hand. Even Roku couldn't do that so efficiently. Sozin is the reason you won't be able to just out-muscle my team with larger waves of water/earth/fire/air. His fire blasts without the comet were equal to Zuko/Ozai/Iroh with the comet. The worst part of that for you is that he doesn't even have to outblast you, he only even has to distract you long enough for the next two.

-Asami Sato, initially may seem like a weak pick, but absolutely wrecked equalist chi blockers and some benders. Ultimately, LoK has shown us one thing: non-benders can absolutely compete with benders in a fight using martial arts and victorian-era tasers. Asami has both. I'll get videos if she gets lowballed but her skill should allow her to dodge most of your attacks and take a few people down with the taser-glove.

-Amon is basically the reason even master level benders won't be useful to you. He has dodged the best and taken them down with chi-blocking skills. The only time he was even tagged was when he was bloodbending and immobile. He can't use bloodbending here so he won't ever be immobile. Supreme agility/speed and martial arts/chi blocking skills is going to put down most of your team who are into their twilight years.

#3 Posted by menaceforever (3693 posts) - 10 months, 16 days ago - Show Bio

Bumi should be able to beat aang just from him having better earth bending feats but kya will beat pakku since katara has Sozin could best sparky boom boom man since he has shown better feats and has held his own against the avatar Asami can take down the metal bending corps and Amon should be able to defeat tenzin so bumi vs Sozin Asami kya and Amon Bumi may be able to take out Asami but Sozin and kya will eventually wear him down and Amon will f him up

#4 Posted by pooty (7787 posts) - 10 months, 16 days ago - Show Bio

@Dane: are we supposed to post or wait to hear both arguments and say who we think wins?

#5 Posted by DedmanWalkin (2598 posts) - 10 months, 16 days ago - Show Bio

It would be the latter pooty, as this is a debate.

Thanks menaceforever, for your enthusiasm but please hold all votes till the end. Dane or Jediwaffles may surprise you with an argument that succeeds in gaining your vote. Please by all means come back to this when the voting starts, more votes are always welcome.

#6 Posted by Dane (10162 posts) - 10 months, 16 days ago - Show Bio

@menaceforever: This is not your debate, please only post your viewpoint in your own thread. Though I appreciate your arguments are in my favour, it is up to JediWaffles to debate for his team.

#7 Posted by menaceforever (3693 posts) - 10 months, 16 days ago - Show Bio

Oh this is a 1 on 1 debate sorry I thought it was open

#8 Posted by pooty (7787 posts) - 10 months, 16 days ago - Show Bio

@Dane: @DedmanWalkin:@menaceforever: Just looking at the teams, I have not read any of the debates, i'm leaning toward JediWaffles. meanaceforever is leaning toward Dane. I want to see if either can make a debate that changes our minds. Please let me know when the debate is done so i can vote. Thank You

#9 Posted by Dane (10162 posts) - 10 months, 16 days ago - Show Bio

@pooty: If you have any impression or predisposition as to who should win before the debate begins, you shouldn't be voting. You award a vote not on who has the best team or who you think should win, you award it on who has debated better for their team. The battle is the debate and the skill used in debating, it's who is more convincing, not who wins on paper.

#10 Posted by pooty (7787 posts) - 10 months, 15 days ago - Show Bio

@Dane: It's impossible to look at a team of people that you have knowledge on and NOT form an opinion. If I show Wonder Woman vs Superman your mind will automatically start weighing the pros and cons even if on a sub conscience level. The only way to prevent that is to use characters that we know nothing about. That is the only way for someone to form an opinion based EXCLUSIVELY off of your words. What you're asking for is not realistic. Our minds work too fast. Nevertheless if a person does have a predisposition and you debate so well that you change their minds, then that is an effective debater.

#11 Posted by Dane (10162 posts) - 10 months, 15 days ago - Show Bio

@pooty: If you can't vote without a bias, don't vote.

#12 Posted by pooty (7787 posts) - 10 months, 15 days ago - Show Bio

@Dane: If you debate this tourny like this, then Jediwaffles has already won.

#13 Posted by Dane (10162 posts) - 10 months, 15 days ago - Show Bio

@pooty: You seem to think the method of voting and the layout of the tournament is up for debate; it isn't. And I'm happy to lose if JediWaffles can debate better than me. But if you are voting before the debate has even begun then it won't be recorded anyway, so enjoy that.

#14 Posted by pooty (7787 posts) - 10 months, 15 days ago - Show Bio

@Dane: I won't vote. but it's impossible to be unbiased about characters we have formed opinions about way before your tourny started. If you don't mind losing that is fine. But if you want to win you should be working on your counter argument because your initial statement has 2 gaping holes in it and you have at least 1 advantage you are completely missing. Enjoy the debate!!!!!!!!!!

#15 Posted by menaceforever (3693 posts) - 10 months, 15 days ago - Show Bio

You both are correct

#16 Posted by Iamlovewithin500 (1028 posts) - 10 months, 15 days ago - Show Bio

@Dane:

She beat Pakku while she was still a student.

No No no....

#17 Posted by Dane (10162 posts) - 10 months, 15 days ago - Show Bio

The concept of a debate really eludes you people.

#18 Posted by redbird3rdboywonder (3299 posts) - 10 months, 15 days ago - Show Bio

@Dane: Either way good luck to both of you and if we do face each other(if i win) then I look foward to deabting with you

#19 Edited by JediWaffles (717 posts) - 10 months, 14 days ago - Show Bio

@Dane: I'm in the middle of a really important baseball tournament right now, so i'll provide a detailed response tomorrow. But one thing, before i leave. Katara > Pakku? No. Way. Pakku annihilated Katara when they faced off, and he was toying with her. Sure, he was impressed, but never, not once in the show was Katara on Pakku's level.

And good luck on the debate! This should be a good one. :D

#20 Edited by Dane (10162 posts) - 10 months, 14 days ago - Show Bio

@JediWaffles:
I think people (yourself included) have misinterpreted what I wrote earlier, or else I worded my sentence rather poorly. I'm not referring to their fight in the Northern Water Tribe, although that is much closer than you're making out. For that fight you need to consider Katara had no formal training in waterbending at all, she later learned from multiple waterbending masters and the Katara I am using is at her peak, not the untrained version from that fight.

When I say student I mean after having been trained, she was using advanced techniques like drawing water from her surroundings, plantbending and bloodbending. That was even before she had hit her peak and was still learning (i.e. a student). Pakku never did any of the advanced techniques I mentioned. The only things Pakku did was change water to ice (admittedly, with impressive control) and use large blasts of water. And he only ever did that with readily available watersources afaik. I don't remember ever seeing him draw water from his environment and Katara never learned that from him. It was only when she met Hama. The kinds of things Pakku did in his showings are things Katara did really, really often after learning from him. I don't know where you get the impression that Katara was never shown to be on Pakku's level. She did everything he did and then a whole heap of other, much more complicated things that he didn't. If you want youtube clips, that is cool. But the stuff Katara did vs Zuko just after Pakku's training was easily as impressive as what Pakku did. Then she only got better after that.

Edit: I have edited my original post so that my position is made a bit clearer here.

#21 Posted by menaceforever (3693 posts) - 10 months, 13 days ago - Show Bio

Sorry I know this isn't my debate and I'm not really debating just asking or stating that didn't Katara learn all the water bending techniques after she met Pakku

#22 Edited by Mad8Baller (469 posts) - 10 months, 13 days ago - Show Bio

@menaceforever said:

Sorry I know this isn't my debate and I'm not really debating just asking or stating that didn't Katara learn all the water bending techniques after she met Pakku

Well she became a master after she met Pakku, but she already knew the basic stuff like making water move and flow before.
All Pakku did was teach her the higher lvl stuff. After a few weeks, she basically surpassed the rest of his other students already.
Depending on which Katara we are talking about, if the one at the end of the show with the ice freezing and stuff; then Katara should be stronger than Pakku.

#23 Posted by menaceforever (3693 posts) - 10 months, 13 days ago - Show Bio

@Mad8Baller: do you mean Katara

#24 Posted by Mad8Baller (469 posts) - 10 months, 13 days ago - Show Bio

@menaceforever said:

@Mad8Baller: do you mean Katara

oh yeah lol

#25 Posted by menaceforever (3693 posts) - 10 months, 13 days ago - Show Bio

@Mad8Baller: i was actually wrong too its Kya

#26 Posted by Dane (10162 posts) - 10 months, 12 days ago - Show Bio

@menaceforever: @Mad8Baller:
The original thread states that Kya is a clone of Katara for the purposes of the battles and that we get all of our characters at their peak.

Also, I really can't overstate how wildly inappropriate it is to jump into the middle of a closed debate and throw in your 2 cents. You basically negate any purpose this thread has.

#27 Edited by menaceforever (3693 posts) - 10 months, 12 days ago - Show Bio

I wasn't throwing in my two cents I was asking a question and nobody was debating and there was no debating going on maybe if you debated more I wouldnt have posted my comment and seriously come on most of us are in the voting stage

#28 Posted by Dane (10162 posts) - 10 months, 11 days ago - Show Bio

@menaceforever: I've posted my viewpoint, JediWaffles isn't around to reply. I can't do anything else. If you have a question about Avatar characters then put it in the main thread.

#29 Posted by menaceforever (3693 posts) - 10 months, 11 days ago - Show Bio

Whatever let me gtfo of this thread

#30 Posted by Ferro Vida (33848 posts) - 10 months, 11 days ago - Show Bio

@menaceforever said:

Whatever let me gtfo of this thread

Stop taking things personally.

#31 Posted by menaceforever (3693 posts) - 9 months, 9 days ago - Show Bio

bump