Two strategic leaders: whose team would prevail?

So we have two teams of 15 fighters. Each team has a leader. One team is lead by Captain America, and the other by Ender Wiggin.

Both teams get two weeks prep-time. After those two weeks, the teams fight each other to the bitter end. The fight takes place in Metropolis, and each team starts at another end of the city.

Each team has its own base of operations, in which they plan their strategy and collect their resources for the upcoming fight. Metropolis is covered with cameras (let's assume that they're indestructible, no matter what hits them). The leaders do not take part in the actual fight. They observe the fight via TV monitors that are connected to all the cameras, and they can communicate with their teams and give them orders during the fight. A team wins when each member of the other team is dead.

There is nobody in the city except for the fighters. There are cars (that can be hotwired) parked along the sidewalk and in parking lots, though they're not too common (let's say 15% of the amount of cars you'd find in Metropolis under regular circumstances). During the fight, all fighters can use the rooftops, sewer systems, etc. They cannot leave the city.

Some characters may have specific equipment restrictions and/or unique equipment. Characters without such restrictions/specials, can use whatever equipment they usually have.

Captain America's team:

1. Gambit

2. Jaime Lannister: Mounted on an armored war horse. He's wearing a full set of chainmail and carries a longsword and a shield, and both his hands of course.

3. Mister Freeze

4. Black Widow

5. Hellboy: Carries his Samaritan revolver and some ammo.

6. The Comedian

7. Lara Croft

8. Nightwing: Has a motorcycle.

9. Hawkman

10. Taskmaster

11. The Punisher

12. Wolverine

13. Dragonslayer Ornstein (from Dark Souls): Regular form only.

14. Lady Shiva

15. Bane: No Venom at all.

Ender Wiggin's Team:

1. Cyclops

2. Deadshot: Has a high calibur sniper rifle and his silenced hand-mounted pistols, and a large amount of ammo.

3. Dovahkiin (from Skyrim): Nord, restricted to the same gear as in the Skyrim trailer. Can only use melee and ranged weapons, no magic allowed except for the Unrelenting Force (Fus Ro Dah) shout.

4. Deathstroke

5. Killer Croc

6. Hawkeye

7. Ezio Auditore: Restricted to his hidden blades (no poison blade and no pistol), a longsword and a dagger.

8. Kenshi (from Mortal Kombat)

9. Iron Fist

10. Harry Potter: Has a broomstick, though slower than the one he uses in the books/movies (a bit slower than Hawkman). Has a regular wand (not the Elder Wand) and none of the other Deathly Hollows as well. Cannot use the three Unforgivable Curses: Avada Kedavra-the killing curse, Crucio-the Cruciatus curse, inflicts agonizing pain upon the victim, and Imperio-the Imperius curse, forces the victim to do the caster's bidding.

11. Vulture

12. John "Soap" Mactavish (from Call of DUty: Modern Warfare): Has a bulletproof military jeep with room for 3 more passengers.

13. Prince Zuko (from Avatar)

14. Invisible Woman

15. Kintaro (from Mortal Kombat)

Abilities of the less familiar characters:

1. Jaime Lannister: An extremely skilled knight, deadly with a sword, though nothing super-human. Despite having both his hands, he has the mature and responsible personality he had after losing his right hand.

2. Hellboy: A red demon. Has Superhuman strength and endurance, healing factor, slow aging, invulnerable Right Hand of Doom (his right arm is basically an invulnerable hammer with 5 fingers), immunity to fire.

3. Lara Croft: Somewhat of a younger, female Indiana Jones.

4. Dragonslayer Ornstein: A knight in shining armor (literally). Has superhuman speed and agility. Carries a long Dragonslayer Spear that allows him to shoot lightning bolts. Highly resistant to electricity and relatively susceptible to fire. He is one of the Four Knight of Gwyn, which means he was a leader of a large army that has fought Everlasting Dragons and prevailed. It is also rumored that he was the commander of the Four Knights. In other words, he's a very decent battle commander on top of all.

5. Dovahkiin: A Nord warrior in light armor, carries a sword and a shield. The Unrelenting Force shout allows him to send a powerful wave of raw power that throws backward almost everything in its way (it can throw back each one of the other fighters. It would knock back cars as well, though not very effectively. Houses and other structures are unaffected, except maybe for some broken windows and all. The shout can be avoided if you're far/quick enough).

6. Ezio Auditore: A skilled assassin. Extremely skilled in using many kinds of melee weapons, hand-to-hand fighting, stealth and free-running (parkour).

7. Kenshi: An extremely skilled, blind swordsman. Has telekenetic powers and a magical sword.

8. John "Soap" Mactavish: A captain of the British SAS (Special Air Service), highly trained and experienced soldier, can operate various types of fire arms.

9. Prince Zuko: A skilled martial artist and firebender (can manipulate fire).

10. Kintaro: A four-armed brute striped like a tiger. Has superhuman strength and endurance, can breathe fire.

11. Ender Wiggin: A strategic GENIUS, has lead humanity against an alien race and prevailed, that's all that matters for this topic.

So... who would win?

Slow down there speed racer. Too many characters from too many universe to comprehend.

I'll add some explaination on the less familiar characters.

Nice thread however Ender is outmatched. While he's strategically a genius when it comes to directing ships and large scale space battles he has nowhere near Cap's experience in directing traffic in man on man battles with such a varied amount of skills and abilities. I will say that Ender has the better team in regards to overall power and usefulness. Booster Gold is gonna be trouble as well as Spider Man and Wolverine for them.

Actually rereading the lists Cap has the edge in strategical experience and overall team power. Cap wins

• Does your match have more than 14 characters going at it? Odds are this is far too complex and there are way too many variables (not to mention the difficulty in properly balancing such a match). Please try to avoid these (here's looking at you, vague X-Men vs JL threads).

#shame

Agreed. Booster Gold for MVP as I would rate him the #1 in power.

Are we going with The Dovahkiin canon? His like destroyer of mountains. . . AKA Solo

His is actually really well structured and easy to comprehend.

Please show me a time when the Dragonborn destroyed a mountain. I'll wait.

caps team wins your structure is good but, the characters are unbalanced booster gold,hawkman,spider-man,wolverine,and hellboy on one team make it unfair.

just make different teams with this same layout it would work. :)

Glad you liked it :) Though I think you underestimate Ender's team. First of all, Ender himself is an extremely fast learner.

He's got some powerful aces up his sleeve. Harry Potter, for example, is a fighter to be reckoned with. He flies around on his broomstic, he can teleport from anywhere to anywhere, and has an arsenal of extremely powerful spells and curses. Deadshot and Hawkeye can take down individuals from the enemy team with ease, such as Black Widow, Lady Shiva etc. Dovahkiin's Unrelenting Force can be extremely useful as well. Speaking of Dovahkiin, I don't think he destroyed a mountain... even if he did, his restrictions should nerf him to a fair level.

@deathsamurai: OK, I'll make some alterations :)

Edit: OK, so now Spiderman's out, Gambit is in. And Booster Gold has changed places with The Punisher.

@the_red_viper:

How fast, exactly, is Harry's 'not as fast as his broom' broom? As it flies via Aristotlian physics, it would be literally impossible for any of these characters to hit him on his Firebolt.

Moreover, is this Head Auror Harry we're talking about, or what? Because if so, he's more powerful than Voldemort and Dumbledore COMBINED according to Pottermore, and if not he has all three Deathly Hallows -most importantly the Resurrection Stone, which Ender could very easily use to great effect.

Either way, the combination of Cave Inicum, Repello Inicum, Protego, Protego Totalum, Protego Maxima, Protego Horriblus, Salvio Hexia, and Fianto Duri create a barrier that resists all kinetic energy and, if cast with enough strength (which Head Auror Harry or Elder Wand Harry could do quite easily) could potentially just stop Cap's entire team. All 50 of the Death Eaters couldn't get past one of these barriers, and combined they have a destructive output of entire cities -hell, they destroyed a castle made out of solid rock in a few minutes flat. They required Voldemort, a nation-wide threat (didn't have the Elder Wand though, so not as powerful as before) to destroy it. (the argument could be made that it took four full-grown wizards to put up the barrier, but that was over ALL OF HOGWARTS. If Harry and Ender play their cards right, they'd only need to do it over the area of a house, with hundreds of times less area. heck, hermione did it all the time.)

Cap has Gambit's explosions (albeit powerful), Mr. Freeze's freeze rays (not going to do anything) and...Dragonslayer Ornstein's electricity to take down this combination.

...prolly not gonna cut it.

Booster is far too powerful to be in this matchup now that I think about it. He's at least a 100 tonner while none of these characters come anywhere close. His forcefields can take superman level punches. Literally no one on either team is gonna be able to do any damage.

How fast is Harry? a little slower than Hawkman. And the only object he has is that broom and his classic phoenix wand. I'll add in that info.

We're talking about End-of-Book-Seven-Harry, with a relatively slow broomstick and a pretty ordinary wand.

OK, then I'll take him out of the equation.

Edit: OK, Booster out, Vulture in. And why do those god damned pictures always disappear when I click "edit"?!

By the way, just popped into my head that you've forgot all about Ender's battles against other teams in Battle-School. He always lead his team of students against larger and/or more experienced teams of students and never lost a single battle.

Why is Jaime Lannister in this? What's he going to do...?

Also, your description of the Unrelenting force isnt accurate. There are plenty of things in the Skyrim world that are unaffected by it.

Jaime's in here for 2 main reasons: 1. He's a seasoned field commander and 2. I wanted to put someone from ASOIAF.

And things that are unaffected by Unrelenting Force in Skyrim are either irrelevant here (like dragons) or simply they're unaffected because of game machanics (like tables and chairs). Logically, if it can throw back a grizzly bear, it should also be able to throw back a crumbling wooden chair.

Well maybe you should change your 'can throw back everything in its way' comment, seeing as we have both said it's not true. If it doesn't work on dragons, why MUST it work on everybody on your list, when there's no way to prove it?

I wouldn't say JL is a seasoned field commander at all. If he was, he wouldn't have been captured. He would've have retreated when he realised his army was overcome.

He is cocky and overconfident, and without any real feats of being a great commander, or even a passage in any of the books saying he is a great commander (that i can remember), I find it hard to agree with you. Unless you're suggesting he isn't a very good seasoned field commander.

IMHO there are a few other people from ASOIAF with actual powers that would be more suited to this fight.

Unrelenting force can throw back humans in full plate metal armor, grizzly bears and giants, the game mechanics don't allow it to throw back anything bigger than that or anything that is park of the enviroment. But do you honestly think it can't knock away a chair, or a table? I honestly think it can throw back the heaviest of the given characters (IE Hellboy, Kintaro, Killer Croc).

Anyhow, maybe he was cocky and overconfident, but now he isn't. Did you read the whole series? Don't wanna throw an accidental spoiler. Anyhow, he was outnumbered, surrounded and taken by surprise in the Whispering Wood. Nobody could have escaped that. And he's described in the books as a seasoned battle commander by more than one character, one of which is Catelyn, and despite her being a woman she knows her way around battle planning.

What characters are you referring to, Melisandre? We don't even know the full scale of her powers, but we do know she can see the future and that seems kind of too OP for that fight. Other than her, I can't think of any other character from ASOIAF that has powers that we actually know (like Pyat Pree, he's a warlock and all but we have no clue what he can do. Or Bloodraven, we don't know everything he can do, plus he's pretty much a tree).

Ender is a strategic genius in almost all fields. He lead his platoons (IIRC) to victory in man on man combat and has plenty of leadership experience, albeit not in actual high pressure situations. If Ender performs at his best, he should systematically run over Cap. If Ender cracks under pressure, he loses.

Or Jaqen Hadar, Or a combo of Beric and Thoros, or any of the three you already mentioned. Or a combo of The Mountain and Qyburn.

Question, why would a seasoned battle commander be so easily outnumbered and taken captive, by Rob Stark? Somebody far less seasoned.

Ok, maybe he is seasoned, but that does not mean he is good.

I remember in the TV show Catylyn saying that, but I cant remember her saying that in any of the books, or anybody else for that matter (this may be because I don't remember every single word of the books, but if that was said so many times like you say, then surely I would remember).

I'm not saying the shout definitely cant knock those characters back, i'm just saying that your description of it makes it sound a lot more powerful than it actually is, and some of those characters may have the speed to avoid it.

Ender Wiggin has 2 months prep. Nothing against Cap, but this is like putting a toddler against Bobby Fischer in a game of chess. It should be 30 minutes of prep for Wiggin and 2 weeks for Cap to make it some what fair. I still think Wiggin would stomp though. Ender Wiggin doesn't even need experience. In his very first fights in battle school, he was already above the students who have been there for years and those students were the most intelligent students Earth had to offer. He doesn't need experience, because he really doesn't even need to learn. When he sees something, he just knows. He embarrasses professionals of other areas of science, religion, military, politics, etc.. in there own areas of study when Ender has spent no time studying their profession at all. I think his intelligence is even above Reed Richards, especially in terms of strategy.

He may not need any prep at all for this. He went undefeated in battle school and most of his battles were fixed against him. They would tell him that his team had to fight with no warning. Or they might have him fight two or three battles in a row without letting him know beforehand. They changed rules so they would be heavily stacked in the opposing teams favor, and Wiggin still won every time.

If Ender Wiggin was leading the anti-reg forces in Civil War instead of Captain America, I think he would have had Iron Man's forces and Shield beat without breaking a sweat in a very short amount of time. He's overcome much harder odds with much less difficulty. This situation should be a very easy win for Ender Wiggin.

@optimuspalm:

Jaqen came to mind, but I let the idea go. Maybe next time. Beric, with all the respect, is really not as good as Jaime. Not in terms of experience, not in terms of commanding (the BWB is very nice but Jaime has commanded larger forces), and most definently not in terms of swordplay. Thoros is there to revive him when he dies, and like Mel he can see the future which is a bit too much for this fight. The three I mentioned won't fit because of the reasons I wrote (especially the whole Bloodraven-is-a-tree thing).

I never said it was said many times, but it was said several times. I definently remember Cat saying that. And like I said, there was no way Jaime could have anticipated this attak. He was outnumbered and surrounded, so he had no way of retreating. Plus, Robb is also a great strategist, plus he has the Lords on the North advising him. They too are good commanders and strategists (Greatjon Umber, Roose Bolton (lol), Galbart Glover, Maege Mormont (is that how you spell that?)).

As for the shout, I'll edit the description.

Two weeks, not months. And that is true, but you're forgetting Ender has never dealt with anything like those 15 people. The two weeks should be used by each team to study their enemies. I put in many characters from many different universes on purpose, so each team wouldn't know just what to expect from their foes. Ender is indeed a genius strategist, but this uncertainty of not knowing his foes is somewhat of a make-or-break. Plus, it's something Cap is more experienced with.

@the_red_viper: Cool, sorry if i seemed a bit over harsh about the shout, i just get annoyed with how over hyped some of the dragonborns abilities are sometimes.

How is there no way Jaime could've anticipated the attack? Is there any evidence that he was sending scouts out that came back with no report? No. They were confident they were riding into an easy battle, which is a mistake on the commanders part.

I think you're giving Beric less credit than he deserves. Especially when both characters in question have very few actual feats to go by. Jaime just has the better rumours.....but who's to say they arent spread by the Lannisters. In terms of swordplay they are actually closer than you think. (i'd have to search hard for the passages that i remember in my head explaining this, but i'm guessing its somewhere in the 2nd to 4th books region).

Now, going back to your 'he used to be cocky and over confident'. Well in this battle he has both hands. So will still be cocky and over confident.

At the end of the day, Jaime is just a good swordsmen, nothing else. IMHO he would lose against every other character in this battle in a 1v1. That's the main reason as to why I thought somebody with a power would be better.

I don't think Ender is going to send his whole force as an all-in tactic like Captain America did at the end of Civil War, without knowing enough about the other side. Ender is a genius, he's not going to risk everything like that. He's going to test Cap's forces, and then make his move. Ender will know everything about how Cap controls his forces in such a short amount of time, that Cap will be at a huge disadvantage. Ender might lose a team member or two to find Cap's team and strategy, but that is not much of a set back for him. I really don't see how Cap can be compared with Ender when it comes to strategy. Cap is a smart person with battle experience and leadership, but Ender is on a whole other level.

Even if Jaime sent scouts, they havn't seen a thing. The troops were well hidden in the woods.

By the way, whenever someone questions Jaime's skil, I always give him the same example: when he and Brienne were traveling, just before they were captured by the Mummers, they were fighting. Jaime was after months of captivity and had his hands shckeled, and he gave Brienne a really tough fight. Brienne says that in her opinion, there's no man in Westeros who could compete with Jaime at his prime. Beric's greates feat, however, was losing to the Hound. Not that I'm underestimating Beric, the Hound is one hell of a fighter, probably one of the top-10 in Westeros. But still.

Your "used to be" argument about him having both hands is good, but it wasn't what I meant, I'll edit Jaime's description here as well.

And you may disagree with me, but I think Jaime would beat Ezio in a 1vs1 (I'm talking about a sword fight, not an assassination).

Anyhow, Jaqen's in for the next topic (I've started planning it already :D)

@tparks: That may be true, but you're forgetting Cap has people on his team that can be of great help in the 2 week prep time. Jaime is an experiences battle commander, Nightwing is a very good tactician, The Punisher is an experienced elite soldier, and Ornstein was one of the Four Knights of Gwyn (you probably have no idea what it is, but it pretty much means he's a damn boss. I'll edit the description).

Cool! Any topic with ASOIAF characters i'll look forward too :)

I'd put The Hound as one of the Top5 in westeros at worst. Who's better? Jaime? probably. Loras Tyrell? Depends how they fight. Bronn? no way. Sir Barristan? Yes. The Mountain? Stalemate. The Red Viper? Could go either way.

Like i explained i'm not talking feats, because just like Jaime if you go by feats it doesnt go well. If you go by heresay (which you have to with these characters because of the lack of descriptive battles) then Beric sounds a bit more badass (i wish i could remember the parts of the book).

I'm not being funny, but anybody calling themselves a scout would be able to spot at least one soldier out of many hiding in a wood. Its not like they were stated as hiding up the trees.

Brienne was not trying to kill Jaime, just defend his blows. Which she did with relative ease because his hands were tied together.

In the books it actually states a few times that there are only 5 men in Westeros that could compete with Jaime, so i have no idea why you think that nobody could compete, when he says himself that there are 5 that can.

I've read all the Game of Thrones books, so I know about Jaime. Jaime isn't much help in this battle for strategy. His forces were stomped by Robb in Robb's first battle ever as a commander, and Robb was just a kid. Jaime is too cocky and hotheaded to be of much use in this. Nightwing is also no where near Wiggin's level. He's very intelligent too, but Wiggin is the most intelligent person in a universe full of geniuses. Punisher is also not much help. He is somewhat intelligent, but he again is completely outclassed here. I have to admit that I do not know anything about Ornstein, but he would have to be at an intelligence level of someone like Thanos to be of much use while building a strategy against Ender. If he is, then I would think this would be a somewhat closer battle, but after the battle starts, Cap is on his own. Ornstein will be part of the fight, not in the base of operations leading the battle and then Ender will have a significant edge that really tips the scale in his favor.

Do you have any info on Ornstein?

First of all Loras isn't that much of a fighter, He's the man when it comes to jousting, but not sword fighting, especially not against the Hound. He himself admitted that his older brother Garlan (who enjoys sparring against 3 men at once by the way) is much better than him, and if there's any Tyrell who can compete with either Jaime of Sandor, that'd be Garlan, not Loras. And The Red Viper is the most badass character ever created in the history of the universe.

Brienne might have not tried to kill him, but he did manage to break her skin. Which is a feat to be reckoned with. About the scout thing, I dunno, but I changed the description so you're welcome to take a look.

Oh and about the 5 people who can compete with Jaime, I'd say Garlan Tyrell, Barristan Selmy, Oberyn Martell (The Red Viper), Victarion Greyjoy (yeah, Victarion Greyjoy) and I don't know who else (since Jaime said he could beat both The Hound and The Mountain).

I added some to his description. Dark Souls don't provide you with much info on characters, but I wrote what we know for sure.

About Jaime, he stopped being cocky after Fat Zollo took his hand, and I also added to his description that he's got the same character as if his hand was taken off.

Like i clearly stated, Loras would have a chance depending on how they fight.

Now, from what i remember of the Viper vs Mountain fight, neither side was ever in total dominance. But i bet you remember more about it than me if your fav is involved, so I'll bow to your greater judgement on that particular fight.

When did he say he could beat both Cleganes? And by saying it, does that mean its true? He said (many times) that he didnt give his sister a portion of Lannister sausage, but we know that's not true.

I can knock out Mike Tyson btw.

(LOL ^^ clearly a joke. But i dont want to ruin your thread anymore. I think we've sorta come to an agreement).

@optimuspalm: Lol, Lannister Sausage XD

but yeah, we have.

Ornstein will help it sounds like, but strategy is still heavily in favor of Andrew Wiggin especially after the fight starts and Ornstein is in the thick of the fight and not commanding from a base.

Jaime will definitely be a better team player without the hand, but his fighting skills will be somewhat lower. That won't matter too much, he isn't going to be much use fighting against some of the stronger characters anyways, he's probably better off without the hand.

I think Cap's team would have a better chance if someone like Thanos was leading and Cap was in the fight as a battle field commander. As of right now though, Wiggin will stomp. I can't say exactly what his strategy would be because I'm not a super-genius commander like him, but I do know that Captain America is much less of a challenge then any of the challenges he faced in battle school or against the Formics.

Well I probably wasn't clear enough: When Jaime had both hands, he was cocky. When he had one hand, he wasn't. In this fight, Jaime has both his hands AND he isn't cocky. Too good to be true, I know, but it's all in theory so who cares? lol

@the_red_viper: lol. That does make Jaime a better team member then.

Yeah, he would have been utterly useless otherwise.

@the_red_viper:

Okay.

They're still not going to be able to get past some basic defensive spells for at least a minute, and all of Ender's chars can fire from inside of it, giving him a HUGE advantage.

So your plan is based on Harry and some sharpshooters locked in a building with magical wards?

@the_red_viper: Not even a building. They could just huddle up and have Cyclops Dovahkin Deadshot Deathstroke Zuko Hawkeye and Invisible Woman spam their ranged attacks while Harry shields them.

I'm not sure if Harry, at the end of book 7, with a normal wand, is powerful enough to keep a ward up against Cap's team.

@the_red_viper: He was as powerful as elite Death Eaters, defeating scores of Death Eaters with ease...

Also four adult wizards who Harry would probably match in combat did it over an enormous castle.

Team two because of Sue. Anyone getting through her shields?

I'm not sure as to how powerful her shields really are, but Ornstein's lightning is very, VERY strong. Plus, he's about as fast as a car.

I would say it comes down to him being able to take out her shields which has been done but with prep and strategy they'll know he's a major player and have Deadshot take him out from half a mile away. After that it's cake for Sue. Team one for sure has the better fighters but team two has ways of winning before it ever comes down to that.

You're forgetting the guy's a knight. He's got heavy armor that withstood fights againt dragons. Deadshot's gonna have a tough time here. Plus, he's about as fast as a car.