Trigon vs zero hour hal jordan

Morals off,fight is until death.

Takes place on a dying earth where souls run for their lives and zombies and mutated babies with no legs crawl at super human speeds with no lower jaw to bite the faces off women who scream in fear.

all feats/versions of trigon allowed.

who wins?

Besides being Hal crazy-pants (aka no morals) and wearing more GL rings, was there anything 'more powerful' about him than normally?

@outside_85: You're joking, right? In Zero Hour Hal becomes Parallax.

Jordan

@evil_incarnate: So?

He destroyed and re-created the universe as well as beating corrigan spectre.

@highaccuser: Wasnt that Extant?

Extant helped him a little, but he was doing all the work. He stomped extant at one point.

@highaccuser: Stomped as in shooting him in the back?

Extant was clearly afraid of him. Plus he accomplished something on his own that extant needed the worlogog to do, and he had more opposition and a universe to destroy while doing it.

@highaccuser: worlogog? I thought he absorbed wave riders powers

I meant during a later JSA arc. He created a universe, as did ZHP.

@lord_galactus: Whew somewhat a tough one...Well Hal has the power to erase and recreate universes and he is totally nuts so my bet is on him.

Feats for Trigon

@kingares109: Consumed a universe, pretty much just blinked and conquered the Earth, the original Monitor claimed he was on the same powerlevel as the Spectre, was only destroyed because his Kryptonite was deployed against him. Even when he had been reduced to shadow of himself he still claimed to be able to wipe out a universe with little bother. And blows up planets with his eyes.

New 52 version has destroyed several universes by the time he come to Earth, but aside that and having an disdainful attitude towards God and the Phantom Stranger, he's not done very much.

@highaccuser: Having skimmed the main event issues of ZH... I can't say I agree that Hal beat the Spectre. From the last pages that the Spectre was just taking what Hal could throw at him to keep him distracted from the others and to drain him. What Hal did have in the favor back then was the added boost to tamper with from from the location he was in, which would also explain why Hal actually died doing something as trivial as reigniting a star.

@outside_85: Hal reignited that star after he lost his entropic energy. If you read the main issues you'd know he lost it to spectre. Killemall has described him as multiversal.

@zelos797: @kingares109: @highaccuser:

And they say Galactus beats Trigon...

bump.

@highaccuser: (Assume you mean Hal being multiversal) I wont agree with that, Hal as Parallax caused multiversal effects by nudging a strategic point in time. Thawne and Barry did something similar with their time tamperings in Flashpoint, Darkseid managed it as well in Final Crisis and normally they aren't people you consider multiversal threats.

Trigon.

Trigon is multiversal as well and could siphon the energy of an entire universe. I'd definitely put them at the very least on even power levels.

Affecting a universe is in no way multiversal. Killemall is an expert on cosmic beings and considers ZHP equal to eternity.

That's what I thought first, but there's no real evidence to suggest he wasn't using his own power. Creating a universe is a multiversal feat in itself.

Also, that's not how darksied and the flashes did it. The speed force is explained as being connected to every universe, and darksied was just dragging earth into the abyss, the rest of the multiverse following it.

Jordan.

That he very solidly booted the Time Trapper (who is known for pulling the same kind of tricks with the Legion) out of his home turf before he did all of this?

It's the same kind of thing. Pandora tripped Barry in the timestream and everything went New 52, Earth Two Superman (or Prime) punched a crystal wall and Jason Todd came back to life, Darkseid fell from the 4th World and landed on the main Earth that the rest of the multiverse rested on. The characters arent normally powerful enough to cause this damage, but putting them in certain places and they can do far more damage than ever. It's essentially a butterfly effect in comics.

@highaccuser: Killemall is very knowledgeable but his word isn't law. There exist only one Trigon in the DC Multiverse thus multiversal as staed by DC themselves. By your logic Hal wouldn't be multiversal either since he only effected one universe.

Harold

What? Just because there's only one in the multiverse doesn't mean they have multiversal power levels. Creating a universe is a multiversal feat because of how much power it takes, not because of how many universes it affects. Also, Hal was affecting every time period and timeline. He did actually destroy and re-create the multiverse.

So? He created a universe, which should prove he's entirely capable what he did. There's no evidence he needed to alter stratigic points. He became a mulitversal powerhouse after absorbing leftover energy from COIE.

Hal

And thats something the Trapper did as well.

Jordan

Trapper created a universe purely on his own power? And threatened to re-create the pre-COIE multiverse? And beat corrigan spectre? Also, you know ZHP absorbed trappers power as well?

The Trapper, from his base, that Hal took over, created several pocket timeline to see what would happen to the Legion and try and keep Superman/boy out which resulted in the 5YL, Reboot and Threeboot Legions (according to him that is). Another point it being the location rather than the person thats capable of this, is Time Masters: Vanishing Point, where Bruce was turned into a threat to everything by Darkseid's Omega Sanction and his presence at Vanishing Point near the end of time.

Hal didn't beat the Specter, he didn't even come close to doing so even when he was at his most powerful. And lets not forget that this wasn't the amplified version that faced the Anti-Monitor.

And I really doubt he did since the Trapper appeared later on pretending to be a future Waverider.

Anyways, you are not going to convince me, ZH Hal may have the power to battle Trigon, what he doesn't have is the power to actually win.

Regular universe>>>pocket universe.

Hal beat spectre. No he wasn't amped, but it was his most powerful incarnation and he was bloodlusted. The way I see it, ZHP is flat out superior to spectre.

Um...I don't remember that. I remember what was left of trappers esence showing up later, but ZHP absorbed him.

And you won't convince me Trigon can harm him. What has trigon done that puts him on par with a multiverse creator?

Trigon

A pocket universe is the same as a normal universe except for the fact it was created by non-godly characters.

Show me a scan of the Spectre being defeated by ZH Hal then. That said, no, it wasnt the most powerful version of the Spectre because all Spectre hosts are equally powerful since they are all normal humans bonded to an actual power. Lastly, no, he wasn't bloodlusted, what he was in ZH was his normal mood, which is always Old Testament. If you want to see a bloodlusted Spectre, you need to read Day of Vengeance.

So not only was Hallalax off his wheels and had absorbed the GLC with the Guardians as a desert, he had to further boost himself with parts of the Time Trapper just to pull all this off and still being unable to beat the Spectre?

He's not facing one since Hal never got to actually create his vision, so why does Trigon need to match one here? Anyways:

So what has Hal done besides sucker punching Superman?

Trigon is to swagg

@outside_85: killing all the guardians in one shot, overcame spectre Hal inside Hal, stopped time to save someone's life, reignited a sun, erased the JLA, remade the universe and still had enough power to fight spectre evenly. in new 52, it says that he destroyed the universes one planet at a time. thinking bad of god is not such a good feat, anyone can do that, looking down at phantom stranger is nothing too, in new 52 PH has not done much.

@outside_85: Pocket universes are smaller and easier to create. Franklin richards hasn't nearly reached his full potential and he makes them casually.

As for the fight with spectre:

And this is after parallex destroyed the DC continuity and was using up energies creating a universe. So he pretty much fought spectre and created a universe simultaneously.

And why wouldn't he be bloodlusted? Parallex just destroyed the whole universe!

Also, how is days of vengence spectre most powerful? Shazam and Nabu gave him trouble and eclipso manipulated him.

Also, he didn't have to absorb trapper, hew only killed him because trapper knew what he was doing.

None of trigons feats impress me much right now.

@highaccuser: Define how a pocket universe is 'smaller' and easy to make.

Figures, notice that last panel where Kyle punches Hal; the Spectre is still standing and the 3rd last panel has 3 people outright stating the Spectre was just soaking up what Hal could throw at him. And theres the construct in the middle of the first page that's melted like butter.

Because that's not how the Spectre is. To get under his skin you'd need to strike at something deeply personal to Corrigan, which Hal didn't do.

Eclipso manipulating the Spectre says nothing about the Spectre's power, that's like saying Hal is weaker for being crazy. DoV Spectre isn't the most powerful, and I never said that, what I said that DoV Spectre is the closest you are getting to bloodlusted, because in this state he doesn't have a host and will therefore massacre anyone and anything for the tiniest of faults.

No he killed him because the Trapper was the thing that was able to stop him tampering with time.

Ofc they don't, you're so behind Hal you've made up a bunch of stuff just to put him on Trigon's level, but thanks for supplying the page that proved it.

@baron_von_santa: Except he didn't overcome the Spectre. As for the New52 PS, mostly true, and then again he recently punched the Spectre off his feet because he got tired of him.

@highaccuser: @outside_85: and spectre is depowered too. your point? and I say Unbound spectre is the most powerful version.

he was weak at first because he has been staying in hosts for so long, he does not have full power, but near the end of his massacre he began to show his true power, which is the ability to leech magic.

his fights:

with captain marvel was affecting dozens of dimensions. he was stalemating even captain marvel with amps from phantom stranger, dr fate, 10 thousand warrior gods, 5 Atlantian sorcerers who escaped spectre, and many more, while he was still not at full power.

with shazam, when shazam was in the RoE his already low end skyfather powers are amped thousandfold. yet still he won. and when he was seemingly killed, he got back up, and drained the magic from the RoE, the magical artifacts, and shazam himself, turning shazam into a weak old man.

with nabu completely affected magic and magical beings throughout the multiverse, and his last feat was awesome: he took magic from everywhere in the universe.

@baron_von_santa: Neither had any trouble stopping time so they could brawl in a police station.

In regards to your DoV observations, Fate was one of the early casualties (by being dumped on a frozen mountain in hell, where he and Lyta disappeared into the Dreaming) and I don't remember the 10k warrior gods you mention. Also, the Spectre's power didn't increase with each murder he committed, it just made magic more and more unstable whenever one of the key figures fell. Lastly, Captain Marvel wasn't boosted in the RoE, the other mages were already too worn out to give him any more. And Shazam has always looked like an old man, and had been a ghost for quite a while by the time the Spectre got there.

@outside_85: I never said he was boosted in the RoE. and i never shazam is not an old man. what is your point?

I think you should read it again.

Sry, but your spelling made it unclear who you were talking about.

1) Still waiting to hear more about those.

2) the phrase implies Shazam was not an old man to begin with.

@outside_85: I think there is a word in front of old.

'and deep beneath the earth, the ten thousand warrior gods of lemuria put off their resurrection for a few decades' oh, and I forgot Alan Scott, blackbriar thorn.

nah, the spelling is my fault.

@outside_85: It's not just that he fought spectre, it's that he did it after destroying the universe and WHILE he was creating a universe. It was later stated that had he continued he would've re-created the pre-COIE multiverse, proving he has enough power to create numerous universes. His only weakness is a finite power supply.

Trapper might have stopped him, but as you said trapper is capable of things far beyond his level of power.

I'm not making up stuff to put him on trigons level, because all I know about trigon is what you've shown me, and he doesn't look abstract level.

@baron_von_santa: 'weak' is relative, Shazam had been a ghost for ages prior to this and his death did nothing to deminish his power. The Spectre took away Shazam's edge by destroying the trinkets, I wouldn't say he's weak without them.

'and deep beneath the earth, the ten thousand warrior gods of lemuria put off their resurrection for a few decades'

Hmm, let me just point out that lines like that is relatively useless because we don't know who they are or how powerful they are, unless they are people thats appeared in some obscure Aquaman comic.

Anyways, why are we arguing the Spectre's power? Since it seems we can both agree that the Spectre is immensely powerful.

@highaccuser said:

Look, my problem here is that you attribute levels of power that Hal in ZH had access to only because of where he is standing, which isn't where this battle is taking place. It's the same as IC Alex Luthor, he could smash realities together, but only when he had has hands inside the vibrational tower he had Prime build for him.

Hal, as Parallax, has the power to offer the Spectre a decent challenge, no more than that.

Hal, as Parallax has the power to manipulate the timestreams from the Time Trapper's base.

Secondly, it was stated, by Hal, numerous times that he intended to recreate the pre-Crisis world where he believed everything was better, he never got to prove that he could actually manage all that down to the fine details (which I might add appeared in his Batgirl who seemed more concerned with preserving her own skin until the very end). Hal believed he could do it, but he was nuts, and his attempt was stopped before we had a House of Hal.

Just to point out, I never said Trigon was abstract level, that would be silly of me since that would equate him to the Endless. And for this he doesnt need to be, since Hallalax isn't an abstract level being either.

@outside_85: How does where he fought spectre have an affect? The entire universe had been destroyed and if what you say about how parallax used his powers is true he never could have used them in a fight. @killemall back me up here.

Hal never meant to recreate the multiverse, you're thinking of prime. It was stated much later that his actions would have remade the multiverse here:

You still haven't given me anything impressive from Trigon.

@outside_85: @highaccuser: This is you two.