TPM Darth Maul/ Ventress vs Kyle Katarn/Leia Organa Solo

Rules

• Everyone is at their prime.
• Standard Morals
• Distance: 20 feet apart.
• Location: Genosis Battle Arena
• Both Teams have full co-operation with each other.
• Legends and New Canon feats apply.

@shootingnova@i_like_swords@jedixman@dccomicsrule2011@jaken7@spartankobe@juiceboks@jkbart@_raptor_@erkan12@darth_necray@thevivas@dominis@dondave@burnface@zapan87

I like it, I like it. Going with Team 1 in a good fight.

@i_like_swords:

@i_like_swords: Would this fight be better bloodlusted? And why do you think team 1 wins if you don't mind giving further analysis. It's late so I understand if now's a bad time.

@okayalright_44: Eh, nah, because then Leia could take Maul and possibly even Ventress out with telekinesis quite quickly every time. Even by just doing it to Maul she'd of secured the win by making it a 2v1.

I say Team 1 take it just due to the fact they're both superior duelists (Ventress and Katarn should be close, I'd imagine, with either of them not being far off Maul either), and with everyone here being a physical combatant primarily, that should be the most important factor. Leia has physical advantages over Ventress, though, which could aid her since they're both prone to utilising martial techniques in their lightsaber sequences. But I imagine Ventress would still edge her out in a lightsaber duel. Maul holds strength, durability and endurance over Leia, certainly not power, and not speed which I'm sure would be even enough, but he does seem to be more physically robust. Katarn can take a beating, so I doubt Maul would win by beating him. Physicals don't seem to be overly important. I'd give team 1 7/10 wins, the other team taking wins due to Leia and Katarn's collectively superior Force power.

ILS is right Katarn could be close to Ventress, and I think he would fare solidly against Maul/gradually lose against Maul's superior strength and his combination of Teras Kasi and power.

Does anyone think that Leia might be at least slightly outskilled by either of the darksiders? At least enough to warrant the advantage of skill going to them overall? I'll defer to shooting I really don't know enough about Leia to make a decided guess, but I think Katarn would do well against Ventress/hold out for a while against Maul.

@i_like_swords: Nice. Would it be better if I made this composite Maul (TCW/TPM) to even up the force gap.....even though I think TCW Maul beats either Katarn or Leia every time.

@burnface:

I think he would fare solidly against Maul/gradually lose against Maul's superior strength and his combination of Teras Kasi and power.

His physical strength and unarmed techniques could certainly help in edging Katarn out, but I believe skill is the main factor there. Like I said, Katarn can take a beating, so I doubt Maul would be able to injure or wear him out with anything other than his lightsaber blade.

Nah. That would make it unbalanced. Leia holding a power advantage over Maul is sufficient to counter his skill advantage, and with Ventress and Katarn's comparability, it makes for a decent thread. Plus.. I'm preferring TPM Maul to how he's being portrayed nowadays anyway.

@i_like_swords: cool, cool.

Since lightsaber is better in securing the victory than the Force, Team 1 wins.

Not sure. It's a good fight. I could certainly see it going either way. If too many people favor the dark siders I will play devil's advocate and argue for the light siders.

For the people that were asking me, Leia is the least skilled character here, but the fastest and most powerful by a large margin. To be honest, I could see her potentially ragdolling TPM Maul, but not Ventress, but it won't be happening with standard morals. I could see her shoving around Maul, of course, but not ragdolling him.

Kyle loses to both but in an excellent fight. His skill is comparable, his power is better than Maul's but probably somewhat inferior to Ventress's, and his physical attributes are among the best here.

If Leia fought Maul and Kyle Ventress, then I could see the Jedi winning, or at least having greater chances than in an inverse situation.

@i_like_swords: I doubt Maul is even with Leia in speed. I never rebutted you in the other thread but I could do so here.

In any case, Leia is pretty comparable with Maul in pain tolerance, resiliency to blunt force, and capacity to continue fighting despite being in severe pain. In fact, I'd have her equal to Maul in the latter two areas, but not on par in the first.

Well, to be honest, Ventress is about even with Obi-Wan, who is about even with Maul.

And Kyle's strength and martial arts are about even with Maul.

Again, the biggest edge for the dark siders is lightsaber proficiency. But this is an excellent fight, with quite a large amount of discussion potential. Either side could win a majority.

You'd put Ventress as a more powerful force-adept than TPM Maul?

@juiceboks: Yes, clearly. Maul from TPM is usually underrated in regards to Force potency and mastery, but so is Ventress.

On a second thought, Kyle probably is as adept as Ventress is.

And of course I do have to call @jkbart

TPM Maul's force powers are underrated again. He at least ragdolled an amped TPM Kenobi and force sensitive Drovian Silus (he is also proficient at Telekinesis).

It's a good fight. I am going with team 1 ; 6 of 10.

@shootingnova:

In any case, Leia is pretty comparable with Maul in pain tolerance, resiliency to blunt force, and capacity to continue fighting despite being in severe pain. In fact, I'd have her equal to Maul in the latter two areas, but not on par in the first.

Really? The blunt force one I can begin to understand but I'm not sure about anything to do with pain tolerance or endurance. I'll hear you out first, though.

Well, to be honest, Ventress is about even with Obi-Wan, who is about even with Maul.

Indeed.

And Kyle's strength and martial arts are about even with Maul.

I'd say Maul has more proven striking power. How are Kyle's martial arts on par?

Again, the biggest edge for the dark siders is lightsaber proficiency. But this is an excellent fight, with quite a large amount of discussion potential. Either side could win a majority.

I think it mostly just hinges on whether or not Leia will decide to use telekinesis to take out Maul. But even then she'd need to BFR him to do any kind of lasting damage, which isn't really an option in the petranaki arena.

Don't be ridiculous. Ragdolled? That's the funniest thing I've heard all day. Pushing somebody off an edge is ragdolling them? No, it's not. LOL.

And by the way, the amplification was for physical traits, not Force power. In fact, sources have told us that Obi-Wan was left vulnerable to counterattack:

Though Obi-Wan's heated assault cut through the Sith Lord's double-ended lightsaber handle, it left him vulnerable to a sudden counterattack.

Source: Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

Not to mention Kenobi was also tiring (TPM junior novelization) after the usage of his amplification.

If you wanted to make a case for TPM Maul in regards to the Force, there are better showings available.

1. Well, Leia was trained by Saba in pain tolerance, specifically. Saba kept rapping her head until she learnt to accept pain silently. There's also an instance where she tanks a full hit from Alema Rar, and forces out the pain without even moving at all. Then there's an instance in LotF where a particularly large Wookiee (regular Wookiees can rip limbs out of sockets) hits her and she isn't harmed at all, and she doesn't cry out in pain either. For capacity to fight whilst in pain, Leia was specifically trained by Saba for instances such as that. She's had her whole world blacking out due to pain and she continued to fight.

2. Well, I put Kyle kicking Yuuzhan Vong (beings of superhuman constitution) out of the radius of an explosion to be as good as any striking feat Maul has. Apparently, Kyle defeated multiple Yuuzhan Vong warriors at once with his bare hands, which is an extremely impressive feat.

3. Technically, if she wanted to, she could throw him out of the arena (LOL), but that won't be happening.

Well, saying ragdolled is a little too much it is true. Still, Obi-Wan was already disarmed because of Maul's force attack, not because of the pit.

Team 2, I'm backing Katarn against Ventress as he has shown in the past that Dark Acolytes are no problem for him. IIRC Jacen Solo considered him the best duelist outside of the Skywalker family at the time. Leia can hold off Maul long enough for Katarn to come help her.

Outside of that, Kyle's beard solos

@erkan12: Nobody said anything about Obi-Wan being disarmed by the pit. He was clearly disarmed by the Force Push.

Team 1 should probably win the majority. Team 2 winning hinges on Leia holding off whoever she faces and banking on Katarn killing his opponent first then helping her.

Heh, surprised that nobody brought up the beard yet.

@shootingnova:

1. Well, Leia was trained by Saba in pain tolerance, specifically. Saba kept rapping her head until she learnt to accept pain silently. There's also an instance where she tanks a full hit from Alema Rar, and forces out the pain without even moving at all. Then there's an instance in LotF where a particularly large Wookiee (regular Wookiees can rip limbs out of sockets) hits her and she isn't harmed at all, and she doesn't cry out in pain either. For capacity to fight whilst in pain, Leia was specifically trained by Saba for instances such as that. She's had her whole world blacking out due to pain and she continued to fight.

I feel like Maul's put up with more and fought through worse, to be honest.

He took serious, debilitating punishment in his fight with the Wampa and "refused to think of it as pain"

Maul leapt upward , dodging the initial attack— but the creature’s massive arm swung around as it passed, its claws raking his back, ripping through flesh to gouge deep into the muscle along his spine. Maul felt his breath sucked from his lungs. A cruel, hot spike— even now he refused to think of it as pain—took hold of that entire side of his body, settling deep inside his nerve endings.

The wampa’s claw shot forward, slashing diagonally across Maul’s face. The moment of clarity vanished in the hot rush of his own anger. Maul lowered his head, tightening up his core, hearing a new growl rising up— his own growl this time, emanating from the most deep and primal pit of his being. He opened himself to it, the deep venom of wrath taking control, fast and sleek and powerful.

The thing lunged again, sinking its teeth into Maul’s shoulder, hitting crucial nerve bundles. All the strength disappeared from his hand and wrist, his body turning traitor at the worst possible moment. His arms fell slack and he stumbled backward, staring up at his adversary.

Maul: Lockdown

Those are the portions of the fight where he took damage. These happened in between the elbow, headbutt, and torso-penetrating strikes he threw.

You already know about him fighting Komari Vosa and killing the Syrox Worm after being shot in the arm point blank by a blaster bolt. There's also the insane training Sidious put him through...

Sidious and Maul returned to Mustafar. For fourteen days, Sidious put Maul through a series of grueling physical tests. Maul defended himself against lightsaber wielding droids in the training room. Blindfolded, he threw daggers at robotic targets, which threw the daggers back at him. He was blindfolded again before he climbed into a starship flight simulator wired with disciplinary electrodes. He wore a sensory-deprivation suit when he ran through a maze that was lined with razor-edged walls, and also when he was deposited into a previously unexplored Mustafarian cave. In locked chambers, he was exposed to extreme temperatures and deprived of food. For each test, he drew strength from the dark side of the Force.

The Wrath of Darth Maul

Fourteen straight days of this. Not only did he pass, he destroyed this test, and it wasn't even the main trial. It was just preliminary to his test on Hypori.

When the fourteen days were over, Maul was exhausted. His entire body ached as he stood before Sidious in the meeting room. Not only had he passed every test, he had destroyed every test. However, his Master always expected more from him, so he was not entirely surprised when Sidious said, "Because you have survived the preliminaries, you may proceed to the actual test to become a Sith Lord."

Maul willed his body to remain standing.

"I am sending you to a planet in the Outer Rim," Sidious continued. "It is made up of three kinds of terrain. Desert, swamp and mountains. You will have at least three matches on each terrain. I have sent a fleet of assassin droids to attack you. Each is programmed with different strategies. Some will work together. Some will work alone. They are all are programmed to kill."

Maul turned to face his master. Although Maul remained silent, the fire in his eyes betrayed his surprise. And his excitement.

Sidious noticed Maul's reaction. "That is correct. I am prepared to lose what I most value. So must you be to become a Sith. You must be prepared to lose your own life in order to win.

Maul nodded. "I understand, my Master."

"You will have to survive for a month," Sidious added. "You will only have a survival pack."

Despite his exhaustion, Maul felt exhilarated. He was determined to prove he was the best apprentice in the history of the Sith.

...

The assassin droids were relentless. Programmed to fight to the death, they had blasters built into their chests and hands. No matter how hard Maul tried to conceal himself or his desperately improvised camps, the droids found him. They never slept, never allowed Maul to sleep for very long, never hesitated before they pounced. When Maul did manage to rest and recover, he fell asleep knowing he would be awakened by an attack.

The droids drove him into the frozen mountains and across the burning deserts. Maul's survival pack was torn from his back and lost in one battle. And after twenty days, Maul realized he was at risk of losing something else. His mind.

Because the attacks never stopped.

Maul was beyond paranoid. He had reason to believe that every sound, every shape, and every shadow on Hypori was a potential threat.

He grew thin and his strength began to ebb. He foraged for food when he could. Life was scarce on Hypori, but he found a few small animals, killed them, and ate them raw, because he dared not risk building a fire that would attract more droids.

It was when he was trying to eat a tough-skinned lizard at the base of a cliff that two droids attacked. Maul defeated both droids but sustained a blaster wound to his thigh. Limping into a ravine, he found a large cave and hauled his body into it. Maul knew he had to recover before he could fight again. But without his survival pack, he had no healing bacta or bandages.

The Wrath of Darth Maul

Then you know about the rest of it, his blaster wound festers, he manages to throw a few blows at Sidious in this condition but they're avoided easily, until Sidious really angers Maul and he feels like he's stronger than he's ever been before and he can accomplish anything, ect.

Another important one is when he managed to pry himself out of a durasteel hatch, despite the scalding damage the boiling steel was doing to his skin. It was so hot he was being roasted alive, literally.

He closed his eyes, summoning the power of the dark side, searching the hatch, probing it for structural weakness. It didn’t budge. Blinking back sweat, he rededicated himself to the task at hand. It was growing feverishly hot inside the lift, where Warden Blirr had no doubt intended to roast him alive, or until she broke down whatever rebellious aspect she saw in him, and turned him into … what? Her mascot, her house pet, or something even more servile?

The notion revolted him, and he jammed the metal strip in deeper between the locked hatch and its housing, wiggling it back and forth. Boiling with impatience, he released a concentrated energy field against the hatch, battering it, but it still wouldn’t budge.

Maul cursed, the anger rising up inside him from wherever it lived and toiled endlessly. Tightening his grip on the makeshift tool, he started working again on the hatch, forcing himself to take his time, fighting to ignore the suffocating heat, the baked air that filled his lungs, as if he were drawing breath directly from a blast furnace.

He fixed his gaze straight up. The hatch itself, an unremarkable twelve-by-eighteen-centimeter rectangle, had become his entire world. Twelve by eighteen, and in the end it represented the difference between completing his mission and perishing in shame and obscurity.

Slipher— Radique— the khipus—

He clenched his teeth, the heat very close to him now, pressing in from all sides, clinging to him like a second skin. By now the walls had become scalding steel plates, burning the palm of his hand and the fingers holding him in place. The inside of his mouth felt cool by comparison. A drop of sweat hit the floor and he realized that he could actually hear it sizzle. If the temperature kept going up like this, he guessed that he might have another minute or two before he blacked out from heat prostration, and then—

He kept working. There was an odd, meaty smell rising up around him, and when his blistered palm shifted slightly on the wall, he realized that it was his own flesh beginning to roast. Master. I will not fail.

He breathed in, breathed out. An odd, narcotic dizziness had started to take hold of him, and he reached down deep into whatever remained of his consciousness, forcing himself to focus. He needed to find Eogan Truax. If he could just— All at once, the hatch popped open.

Maul: Lockdown

As for blunt force resistance, Maul has been hit square on the jaw by something bigger than even an extraordinary wookieee and kept fighting, and this was without any preparation for the blow.

@shootingnova:

2. Well, I put Kyle kicking Yuuzhan Vong (beings of superhuman constitution) out of the radius of an explosion to be as good as any striking feat Maul has. Apparently, Kyle defeated multiple Yuuzhan Vong warriors at once with his bare hands, which is an extremely impressive feat.

3. Technically, if she wanted to, she could throw him out of the arena (LOL), but that won't be happening.

I suppose. I dunno, it just seems like Maul does more damage with his strikes, like kicking through a torso, acrobatically kicking and breaking a durasteel chassis, punching through a wampa, hoisting by the throat and ragdolling an 8 foot+ armored creature, choking blood from it's mouth and eyes from the sheer pressure of his choke, throwing bone shattering strikes to the neck, spine and skull, even on a Wampa. Which reminds me, another endurance feat of his is actually having venom spat in his eyes and managing to fight through it.

And yeah I agree, but that would be hilarious :p

@i_like_swords: She's at least comparable. Again, he's better than her in pain tolerance, as I said, but they're about even in how much of a load they can bear as they are fighting.

For being bigger than a Wookiee, eh. The average Wookiee is 2.1. A large one is at least 2.3 or 2.35, by estimation. Not sure about how strong is actually is, though.

And that actually injured Maul. It knocked out one of his teeth, whereas Leia wasn't injured at all. And then there appeared to be an instance of Dark Rage.

I know how good Maul's resiliency is, because I've read all of those sources. But whilst its better than Leia's, not only is she comparable, but the difference won't make a difference when he gets hit by a lightsaber, just as it won't matter what Leia's durability is when she gets hit by a lightsaber. Or for Kyle or Ventress. All four characters are very durable, but a lightsaber blow would still be the death of them.

@i_like_swords: IIRC, Maul only kicked into a torso, not through it. And it still wouldn't be better, especially because Kyle was years before his prime when he accomplishes that as a feat. The difference would be negligible anyways, so it's not really worth discussing.

The venom feat is one that I remembered from reading the novel and it is incredible impressive.

If you want more feats, you should ask JXM since he's the one stockpiling the feats.

@shootingnova:

She's at least comparable. Again, he's better than her in pain tolerance, as I said, but they're about even in how much of a load they can bear as they are fighting.

I'd say Maul's a bit more proven in this area, but I agree they're comparable.

For being bigger than a Wookiee, eh. The average Wookiee is 2.1. A large one is at least 2.3 or 2.35, by estimation. Not sure about how strong is actually is, though.

Wookiee's are strong to be sure, but this creature Maul was fighting was a predator and proven killer, and was described as being massive for whatever it was. And was Leia prepared for the strike from the wookiee?, because Maul wasn't for this strike - he just tanked it from his own natural durability.

And that actually injured Maul. It knocked out one of his teeth, whereas Leia wasn't injured at all. And then there appeared to be an instance of Dark Rage.

I wouldn't call that an injury. Losing a tooth is pretty negligible in a fight, for Maul anyway. Maul utilising the Dark Side =/= Dark Rage. He gets angry and draws on it in essentially all of his fights. Only extraordinary circumstances, like his Sith Lord trial fighting Sidious, Savage's death and so on allow him to gain an amplification. I see that as different from fighting through an injury or ramping up the intensity in a fight, because he's drawing on circumstantial rage. Being punched in the face hasn't got any circumstance.

I know how good Maul's resiliency is, because I've read all of those sources. But whilst its better than Leia's, not only is she comparable, but the difference won't make a difference when he gets hit by a lightsaber, just as it won't matter what Leia's durability is when she gets hit by a lightsaber. Or for Kyle or Ventress. All four characters are very durable, but a lightsaber blow would still be the death of them.

I agree, I noted earlier that I think the most prominent issues are dueling skill, and then Leia's power advantage.

IIRC, Maul only kicked into a torso, not through it. And it still wouldn't be better, especially because Kyle was years before his prime when he accomplishes that as a feat. The difference would be negligible anyways, so it's not really worth discussing.

The venom feat is one that I remembered from reading the novel and it is incredible impressive.

Ah, that's what I meant. "Into" is a better way to phrase it. And yeah, I agree.

I know, I can't believe I forgot to include it in the thread.

@shootingnova:

If you want more feats, you should ask JXM since he's the one stockpiling the feats.

I might just wait until the thread comes out so I can look at it all at the same time.

Either side could win

@shootingnova: Yep, definitely one of the better threads.

A really interesting and well balanced fight. Every team has different advantages, so it's really difficult to predict the outcome.

Maul is definitely the best fighter here. He's the most skilled lightsaber duelist here and the most experienced one in different martial arts. I actually posted two times before that Kyle, by his general status, his incredibly fast rate of learning and sheer talent demonstrated in Jedi Knight series, and implied place among fellow Jedi of the New Order, should be at the very least just slightly below, but it is nothing more than a general implication, and without elevating that inference too high and taking Kyle's feats, he should be significantly below Maul, bot not to a full tier. Ventress should be moderately below Maul, and somewhat beneath Kyle. Leia, as far as sheer lightsaber mastery goes, is simply outmatched. She's still skilled, and her overwhelming physicality and Force utilization would definitely close the gap, but as far as skill goes, she comes the least here.

On the other hand, judging their physical abilities, be it sheer base capabilities or Force influence - is simply hard. Most of their amplifications are passive in nature, and are a result of constant and subconcious Force channeling, so it's hard to put out the "active" channeling out of the equation, as their scale of effort to actively channel their energies is varying, not always stated, etc. While many feats of Leia are clearly coming from her massive Force power and conscious boosting, I'll just take all those things as a whole.

Thing is, it's still hard. Their strength, speed, endurance, stamina, ar simply varying between them. Leia is fastest one here, and Maul comes second. Their speed should be the most important factor here, but Maul and Ventress are simply better equipped to balance it out via proper adaptation of their fighting methods. Maul, while inferior to Leia, is still very, very fast. Asajj and Kyle should be relatively equal in this area. Yes, Ventress fought faster opponents and displayed superior speed herself, but Kyle was fast enough to contend with multiple Yuuzhan Vongs at once, Yuuzhan Vongs that could tag superhumanly fast Jedi. They should be relatively equal.

Strength should be a factor for Kyle and Maul only. They both use martial arts very frequently, and generally all the feats already stated here should, more or less, deem them equal. It doesn't matter much who of them has that slight advantage, simply because they are both too masterful in both lightsaber and melee fight. Yet again, Kyle is nowhere as impressive as Maul in terms of pain tolerance and endurance, but even if we take Maul as the stronger one, it shouldn't be too much of a decisive factor, especially as melee strikes, I think, wouldn't be a larger part of the fight. It could, potentially, at least wear Kyle down. Ventress doesn't have the strength of Kyle, Maul, or Leia, but her fighting style and general skill always allowed her to fight physically superior beings. Most notably, of course, Anakin Skywalker. Leia is inferior to Maul in terms of strength, but her durability is equal to him, and one could argue she is even better. True, Leia isn't such a melee adept like Maul, but I believe Maul doesn't have enough speed to utilize melee tricks against her.

And finally - their Force abilities. The matchup between them should be mainly decided by these. Leia, while she wouldn't necessarily just outright ragdoll Maul without at least some slim opportunity of Maul's imbalance, she could definitely do it in a good moment within their fight. If the duel between them would go too far, Leia's speed probably would slowly stop making up for their skill gap, as generally, the longer a fight takes, the more advantage the skilled one takes. However, Leia's speed surpasses Maul enough to give her enough time to aid her extremely significantly by Force usage, when a good moment occures. There is still a viable possibility of the fight taking simply too long, and Maul, with his superior skill, guiding the duel to his win, which wouldn't come too easy neither. Still, Leia's speed is actually her main card here, as it both allows her to match Maul for an extended period of time, and gives her just too much time to utilize her completely superior Force abilities.

Ventress vs. Kyle should be a rather equal match-up. Kyle, as I stated, has superior strength, but Ventress is used to that, and she has some martial skills on her own, although Kyle is simply better and proper utilization of those skills could give him the edge needed here, as they're equal in most cases. They're generally both duelists and usually I doubt the Force abilities of any of them would make it more of a difference, except that Kyle has more Force abilities at his disposal and being a fighter described as mixing many methods (you see that even by the fact that he still carries blasters), he could as well overwhelm Ventress with more unpredictable and tricky, "scoundrelish" methods, but Ventress could also make enough of an advantage with superior telekinesis. It wouldn't be much of an edge usually, but they're so equal in every other area (or can negate each other's skills), that such an additional, if slim, edge, would grant them a win. I believe it to be an even split, although Kyle can possibly make 6/10 against Ventress due to having more options at his disposal.

Another way around - it would be disastrous for the Jedi. Maul should be superior to Kyle as a duelist, and Kyle wouldn't get an edge with his martial skills. Kyle should be slightly superior to Maul in the Force, but not enough to make a difference, especially in heated lightsaber fight. Leia, on the other hand, has far lesser chanes of succeeding thanks to the Force in a fight against Ventress, even though lightsaber fight would be easier for her, as Ventress is slower than Maul, and slightly less skilled, probably. Actually, Leia has enough of a speed advantage against Ventress that it could possibly grant her a frag (lol) on Asajj.

Still - in the first scenario, Leia would take a majority over Maul, and Kyle would take a slight majority over Ventress. In a team fight, there is also the chance of one of them helping each other. Darksiders have less chance to win against their opponents and helping stomp the other, so it kinda doubles the chances the Jedi have. It would be 7/10 for Jedi in that scenario.

In the second version, 6/10 for the Darksiders.

Very nice thread!

I am not sure about Ventress is slower than TPM Maul. She is fast and quick as Kit Fisto (or very close to him) and faster than AotC Kenobi / Luminara Unduli, maimed Anakin via agility (Anakin's eye scar). TPM Maul & Ventress should be equal on speed.

She defeated Fisto whom she studied before, and while the latter was tired after fighting XTing's (or whatever they were called) and with some hindrances there. It's safe to asume she isn't as fast as him, though not more than a tier below. Ventress doesn't seem very slower, but she somewhat is. And Maul has far eclipsing movement speed (running, sprinting speed).

I doubt it would be far eclipsing. Ventress ran in a blur and outran a large number of missiles before, which should be comparable. I know Maul has excellent running feats but they should be comparable enough.

I agree with your other post (commendable, by the way), but I'm curious as to why you believe Leia cannot do with Asajj what she can with Maul. Obviously Ventress is more potent in Force usage than Maul is, but I doubt it would make a difference. Leia is in between Dooku and Anakin as far as Force potency goes, and both of them have stomped Ventress with the Force before.

I doubt it. If your whole world is blacking out then you would just faint, at least, for most people. Few can expect to not only not faint, but continue fighting even whilst the whole world seems to be blacking out. Tanking blows from Alema Rar is a good feat as well. A pre-Jedi Leia was repeatedly getting floored/sent flying by Alema's kicks, but as a Jedi, she was able to take the pain without even moving.

No, she was just walking before the Wookiee hit her:

Despite a brisk wind, and the lush tang of wroshyr pollen it carried, the musky smell of so many Wookiees gathered for so long in such a small place was.... overpowering. Not sickening, but certainly dizzying. As Leia followed Han through the jungle of roaring fur that was the Rock Council, it took an act of will just to continue breathing. She did not bother trying to remain steady on her feet. The way she and Han were being bounced around by shifting hips and flying elbows, that was a lost cause.

A particularly large elbow, descending from a ferocious cheer, crashed down on Leia's shoulder and drove her to her knees. She didn't cry out-Saba had broken her of that particular urge by rapping her on the head until she learned to accept pain silently-but it didn't prevent the elbow's owner from scowling down to see what kind of critter he had just smashed.

"No harm." Leia rose and rotated her arm. "See? It still works."

Source: Legacy of the Force: Inferno

Eh, but he was still affected, let's say.

It is Dark Rage, clearly, just on a lesser scale than the ones you brought up. Dark Rage is a pretty common power. It's just severe levels of it are rare.

Agreed on the rest. The funny thing is how everybody here is extremely durable.

@shootingnova:

I doubt it. If your whole world is blacking out then you would just faint, at least, for most people. Few can expect to not only not faint, but continue fighting even whilst the whole world seems to be blacking out. Tanking blows from Alema Rar is a good feat as well. A pre-Jedi Leia was repeatedly getting floored/sent flying by Alema's kicks, but as a Jedi, she was able to take the pain without even moving.

To put it simply, I just don't agree, haha. I don't think Leia resisting feinting despite her world blacking out is on-par with Maul's collective showings. Tanking Alema's hits is good, but Maul has gotten up/shrugged off with no real damage being hit in the face by a Skycar repulsor, as well as that massive beast I described earlier, which I see as better.

No, she was just walking before the Wookiee hit her:

The Wookiee bumped into her shoulder by accident, albeit while cheering excitedly, but all the same. That isn't really comparable to being punched in the face full force by a predatory trophy case of kills without warning, which is bigger than even the largest of Wookiee's already. The wookiee wasn't trying to hurt Leia.

Eh, but he was still affected, let's say.

Well, it's not like he had the best dental plan anyway..

It is Dark Rage, clearly, just on a lesser scale than the ones you brought up. Dark Rage is a pretty common power. It's just severe levels of it are rare.

Well, Maul was struck in the face by this thing first and foremost. Dark Rage had nothing to do with that. He seemed completely fine immediately after besides a missing tooth, which is a superficial injury at best, negligible at worst. "Then the rage came. And the rage was good." Only implies that he began drawing on the Dark Side, because he now knew he was in a fight, and naturally he was pretty angry from being socked in the mouth. Was he making use of common Dark Rage? Yep, but not to tank the injury itself, and it's something he can do here anyway.

Agreed on the rest. The funny thing is how everybody here is extremely durable.

Ventress isn't too durable, is she?

Good discussion going on here. Me likey.

@i_like_swords:

I doubt a skycar repulsor is much better. Certainly not better than fighting whilst your world is blacking out, because, IIRC, Maul has blacked out as well. Also, Maul was knocked down by the Skycar repulsors, whereas Leia wasn't even moved by Alema's strike.

Actually, he accidentally smashed his elbow down on her because everybody was trying to move past each other.

Well, neither Maul nor Sidious visited the dentist ever year, so.. eh.

I said he used Rage after that, not during that.

Yes, she is. She has survived falls from skyscrapers (after she was electrocuted), survived falls from cliffs, survived from smashed against large rocks from falls, and there was a deleted scene in the TCW film that was in the novel/junior novel where Ventress survives a rancor falling on her.

@shootingnova: He blacked out near the end of Sith lord trial, but obviously he went through far worse punishment than Leia did in this context, and he grew in power after that. He resisted blacking out in other situations like when he was drowining/roasting, and I believe maybe when he was fighting the Wampa. I'll need to properly re-read Lockdown to get a jist of the feats some time.

Still.

*shrugs* lol

Alright.

Damn, and she's skinny too.

@i_like_swords: I agree with going through worse, which is why I didn't bring up the pain tolerance, but I brought up Leia having better control of her own bodily systems, whereas Maul is more of the type to just keep going.

There's more feats for Leia I haven't got, as well, so I will try to finish it soon enough.

Yeah, she is pretty durable.

@shootingnova: Alrighty, I think that's us.

I bet there's a random feat lying around of Leia outsparring Luke while holding back.

@i_like_swords: LOL.

Team 1.

Thanks for the compliments

@jkbart: I'll have to agree with this whole post haha. Nothing more to add really.

This was a good thread.

Probably 5/10 for both sides.