1. Danger will produce new bodies to cover as psychic blocker suits of armor for my team as well as multiple bodies to attack with.
2. They will also give a small 90 second intro of their powers, and Terrific will use his T-Spheres to also provide shields and extra protection. Danger will share what she knows of Blink, Static (does he know Ray? I think Terrific does, but not sure about Static) and Terrific will share what they know about Ray Palmer and him being the Atom. This has our team on constant lookout for atom-sized tomfoolery (and with Static messing with electrons and Terrific's T-Spheres sensing nanites by part per million, we should be sufficiently covered).
3. Danger will then plant her consciousness in the T-Sphere provided for her as well as the ship in front of us and whatever tech is there, and will create some hard light constructs (let's say Sentinels to be unoriginal).
4. Cyborg will link himself to the T-Spheres and Danger so they can basically have shared vision/visual links, as well as any other tech in the area.
5. Static will charge parts of the ground, trailer and the floor so that you're team will be magnetized and stick to them, unable to move and makes sure it doesn't affect my team at all.
6. Static will cover his team in an electromagnetic forcefield to start the battle
7. Danger will turn the area to a mini-danger room.
Appetizer
1. Match starts, Danger neutralizes your team as she did the Mister Sinisters, has the hard light constructs attacks, and even suffocates your team/immobilizes them with the hard light constructs.
2. The T-Spheres trap your team in gravity wells and then mind erase them (the one's that is applicable to)
3. Static uses his abilities to immobilize your team mid air
4. Cyborg KOs them with White Noise cannon
These happen one after another in a layered attack as soon as the battle starts. Further plans after I see what you plan and how you plan to get out of that.
Using the 10 min given for preparation, this is what my team will do before the fight starts:
Once again through Mr. Negative powers, the team will be corrupted, losing any moral restraint they may have. This means they won't hesitate on using any means necessary to win this challenge. Next we have Zealot using her dark sorcery, which opens a variety of mystical abilities, first one being telepathic communication, estabilishing TP-Link among the team, for a better coordination and performance during the battle. She will then create mystical shields to protect the team in case your team try to strike them as soon the battle starts.
Already knowing what to do, the Atom will shrink part of his team to a subatomic level, which means virtually invisible, almost impossible to detect, even if your team has some form of subatomic detection, we have Blink ready to teleport the team once the fight begins, which means a hard combo to deal with. One thing is detect someone positioned at a small size, another is doing the same with subatomic individuals in successive teleports.
10 minutes is more than enough for all this to happen, whereas now the team is acting synergistically, and is composed by the best characters in their respective fields. The combination of their powers and abilities creates an incredible variety of tactical possibilities to be applied on the battlefield.
Step by step this is what we got:
1. Corrupting:
As Mr. Negative, he can and will corrupt the team, so everyone can turn their morals OFF. This is crucial because as heroes they would never display such tactic. As already said, the more positive (good) the individual, the more negative (bad) they become. Spider-Man, a hero in every respect, was corrupted into a spiteful and angry villain, despising every value he held dear (even his Uncle Ben's memory) and no more above killing. (Dark Reign: Mister Negative #2)
Once corrupted, the team will move on to the second part, which is called:
2. Shrinking:
Here, Ray Palmer, using his power to shrink not only himself but also his team, this can be checked in JLA Vol 1 #42. At this point, within the 10 minutes given, three of them will be shrunken at a imperceptible size, invisible to your team. The Atom can shrink his body to varying degrees (including the subatomic level), achieved by storing most of his mass in a pocket dimension. (Who's Who: Update '88 #1). This lead us to the next step,
3. Teleportation:
Now it's up to Blink. She's one of the best teleporters in comics, so this should not be an issue for her. While this happens, Mr. Negative will remain hidden with Atom to strike your team to assure eveyone dies. IF anything goes wrong they will be there to take care of them. Even if your team manage to somehow, he can corrupt them and the fight is over the same way.
Zealot, who can teleport by herself will use her signature kusar blades to kill/destroy, remember those blades are Kherubim technological weapons forged on Majestros's home world, Khera. The blades were forged impossibly sharp capable of rending people of even Majestic and Superman's level of invulnerability with ease. Majestic once demonstrated this truth by pricking his thumb on the blade. As Zealot states the Kusar is so sharp it can shave the rough edges off an electron and absorb the heat of a thousand suns with ease. to rip your team inside out, one by one. (Captain Atom: Armageddon #4).
Attacking!
As soon the battle starts, Blink will teleport part of the team to a safe distance from the enemy. One of my team members will remain hidden (Zealot), which is someone your team has no idea about. This particular member will be in charge of taking your team one by one using surprise strikes. The other teammates will use their powers and abilities to divert attention, so that your team be vulnerable to a sudden attack.
Blink will replicate the same feat used against Hyperion when she teleported sand inside his body. The difference here is that she will teleport the scenario against and through your team shields, being it heavy objects, walls, ceilings, roof, trees or even the ground itself where your team is placed. This can be done very quickly and most important, successively. Considering that with her Bio-Molecular Spatial Displacement, Blink has the ability to displace matter through a type of teleportation rift, appearing as blinking holes, enabling her to move objects or people various distances and displace matter out of sync with reality. Her effective teleporting range is to the moon and back. Blink is capable of manifesting the energy for her portals in the form of short javelins, which she can throw at an object to cause it to teleport. She uses this ability both offensively and defensively, and she can also send multiple targets to multiple locations at once. At the same time, Zealot will strike your team with powerful blasts of arcane force between teleports and since your team has no answer for magic, I hardly believe any of your defenses will be prepared to deal with mystical bolts. Not only that, but also the Kusar Blades will be ready to strike, kill and destroy anything and anyone. At the fist opportunity, Mr. Negative will corrupt the members of your team that are susceptible, turning them to our side. Remember, the more hero they are, the easier it will be. The Atom will be ther assisting his team using his Superhuman Strength by shifting all his mass into his fists so he can punch with incredible force.
1. Doesn't Mr. Negative have to touch your team to corrupt them? Why would they let that happen and not take him out?
2. You said Zealot had magic, doesn't that involve some type of telepathic defense that would stop Mr. Negative? It says she has telepathy on her comicvine page which is why I ask (don't have enough knowledge of her otherwise)
3. How can Blink teleport to us when she's now tiny? From what I've seen, she teleports relative to herself, and wouldn't be able to teleport even 6ft if she was subatomic. Observe:
The moon is 238,855 miles or 1261154400 ft away from the Earth. Blink is what? 4ft tall? So if we divide that, we get 1261154400 ft /4 = 315288600. That's the ratio and limit of her teleportation.
The average radius of a nucleus of an atom (which is subatomic clearly) is 10^-12 cm. 6ft is 182.88cm. That ratio is 182880000000000, which is significantly larger than her teleporting to the moon. And that's just 6ft, not all the way to my team.
4. Wouldn't Zealot's blades lose all their magic due to being so small? Rending Majestic and whatnot is impressive, but when you're that small, you're just cutting atoms, molecules, or even organs. So the sharpness doesn't matter all that much.
Attacking!
1. The Blink Teleportation thing again, but you can reference Prep 3 for that.
2. Does Mr. Negative have feats of corrupting cyborgs and robot life forms? Also hasn't his touch been resisted before? If so, Static has resisted the Anti-Life Equation so...don't see the corruption working. And if it hasn't been resisted before, then it is against the rules FYI.
3. How does punching from Atom do anything to Danger? Her body doesn't matter all that much.
The Fight
1. So your team is sub-atomic, but remember that EVERYONE on my team KNOWS you're subatomic. Know what else is subatomic? Or at least can be? Electricity. So every move, forcefields, electric shock, etc. Static does will be done at the electron level (something he's done many times now) and will hurt your team.... a lot. This includes charging and sticking your team if possible. Even being inside of him would be dangerous as he can flow electricity through himself and often does.
2. With that said, there is no way for you to get past our defenses as they are subatomic as well.
3. Even better, Danger uses hard light, which should be subatomic as well, being made of photons, and can still harm your team among other things.
4. Terrific is using gravity wells, and gravity too (as well as photon bursts and electricity and magnetism his T-Spheres can use) can affect subatomic particles
5. Cyborg's using white sound among other weapons (light weaponry) so he should also be able to affect your team
6. Even if everything you said worked, there's no putting down Danger. Who can singlehandedly defeat your team using her control of hard light and T-Spheres and Cyborg's parts should he be taken out.
7. Essentially, all of our weapons can hurt you subatomically, while you can't get past our defenses.
Summary
1. There are issues with your prep and team (corrupting your team, teleporting when subatomic, etc.)
2. Being subatomic doesn't protect you from our weapons nor allow you past our defenses
3. Nothing said or shown to put down Danger. And she can solo your team.
1. Doesn't Mr. Negative have to touch your team to corrupt them? Why would they let that happen and not take him out?
I thought I would go through this tourney without answering this question. If you check the tourney PM, in two instances @sirfizzwhizz explained how morals would work for all characters, I'll post one of them here:
page 4 if you want to see it for yourself.
So, my team will work just fine, especially after Mr. Negative's corruption.
2. You said Zealot had magic, doesn't that involve some type of telepathic defense that would stop Mr. Negative? It says she has telepathy on her comicvine page which is why I ask (don't have enough knowledge of her otherwise)
Yes he possess dark sorcery, and no, it doesn't involve TP resistance, not the way you are thinking. She can only achieve it through magic. Once corrupted, she'll follow rules which means working as a team, so use her sorcery to estabilish a TP-Link among her team.
3. How can Blink teleport to us when she's now tiny? From what I've seen, she teleports relative to herself, and wouldn't be able to teleport even 6ft if she was subatomic.
Ray Palmer can only keep the size and mass of the ones near to him. Once Blink javelin's are strike out it will go back to it's normal size and mass towards your team. This move is only to make it hard for your team to deal with. Not to mention that can always teleport to attack and go back to her team. In top of that, the Atom doesn't need her to keep away from your team, he can fly. If he can retain his natural strength level while at the subatomic level, the others should have no problem either.
4. Wouldn't Zealot's blades lose all their magic due to being so small? Rending Majestic and whatnot is impressive, but when you're that small, you're just cutting atoms, molecules, or even organs. So the sharpness doesn't matter all that much.
Take another look at my strategy:
As soon the battle starts, Blink will teleport part of the team to a safe distance from the enemy. One of my team members will remain hidden (Zealot), which is someone your team has no idea about. This particular member will be in charge of taking your team one by one using surprise strikes. The other teammates will use their powers and abilities to divert attention, so that your team be vulnerable to a sudden attack.
She's going by herself against your team, of course in consonance to the team's strategy and Mr. Negative commands. That's what I said:
Zealot will strike your team with powerful blasts of arcane force between teleports and since your team has no answer for magic, I hardly believe any of your defenses will be prepared to deal with mystical bolts. Not only that, but also the Kusar Blades will be ready to strike, kill and destroy anything and anyone.
Attacking!
1. The Blink Teleportation thing again, but you can reference Prep 3 for that.
Already covered.
2. Does Mr. Negative have feats of corrupting cyborgs and robot life forms? Also hasn't his touch been resisted before? If so, Static has resisted the Anti-Life Equation so...don't see the corruption working. And if it hasn't been resisted before, then it is against the rules FYI.
The corruption touch would not work on Danger of course, could partially work on Cyborg as long as he retains some sort of humanity, he's not 100% robot right? And should work just fine on Static and Mr. Terrific. Shang Chi, thanks to a special meditation technique was able to resist to the dark side for a moment, as you can see in the scans below:
Gallery
Note he was incapacitated, and Martin Li could have killed him if he wanted, but instead he was trying to fully corrupt him. So even if Static
3. How does punching from Atom do anything to Danger? Her body doesn't matter all that much.
To Danger? Not much, but with superhuman strength he can punch and KO the others, who don't share the same level of durability for example
The Fight
1. So your team is sub-atomic, but remember that EVERYONE on my team KNOWS you're subatomic. Know what else is subatomic? Or at least can be? Electricity. So every move, forcefields, electric shock, etc. Static does will be done at the electron level (something he's done many times now) and will hurt your team.... a lot. This includes charging and sticking your team if possible. Even being inside of him would be dangerous as he can flow electricity through himself and often does.
As far as I'm concerned only Terry Sloane (first Mr. Terrific) knows about Ray Palmer. Static I'm sure has no idea about who he is. I'm not sure how your team will manage to tag what they can't see or properly detect. Remember that my team is making use of teleports as both offensive and deffensive purposes. I also don't remember using that kind of tactic, I don't plan to teleport anyone inside any of your team members, that would be unproductive and unnecessary.
2. With that said, there is no way for you to get past our defenses as they are subatomic as well.
That subject is Ray Palmer's expertise. He's by far the most intellectually capable of all characters involved in this fight. He can and will find a way to get past your defenses, I've presented 2 different ways so far.
3. Even better, Danger uses hard light, which should be subatomic as well, being made of photons, and can still harm your team among other things.
This falls unders the tagging situation, not gonna happen that easily for your team. Also, I doubt it could harm my enhanced (corrupted) team effectively. Also, rules stipulate that: Energy level limited to small parking level (500 by 500 Square Feet). Not enough I'm afraid.
4. Terrific is using gravity wells, and gravity too (as well as photon bursts and electricity and magnetism his T-Spheres can use) can affect subatomic particles
I have not seen the T-Spheres being able to perform all those tasks at the same time. Regardless, Zealot should be able to neutralize your team before they manage to accomplish anything worthwhile. You also have to deal with Blink's main strike as discribed on my strategy.
5. Cyborg's using white sound among other weapons (light weaponry) so he should also be able to affect your team.
I'd like to see it working on a subatomic level, against characters that can stay away from your team while striking from distance. Or against characters that can teleport in and out at all time. I doubt how effective it would be.
6. Even if everything you said worked, there's no putting down Danger. Who can singlehandedly defeat your team using her control of hard light and T-Spheres and Cyborg's parts should he be taken out.
Blink can just BFR all that without problem. You don't pack infinite gear, while the pink mutant can keep attacking with her powers until there's nothing left.
7. Essentially, all of our weapons can hurt you subatomically, while you can't get past our defenses.
Actually, I'm not convinced any of those would work while my team can definately put yours down using the great combo their powers ensure.
Summary
1. There are no issues with my prep and team
2. Being subatomic in combination with teleportation protects my team from anything you said so far.
3. Nothing said or shown counter Zealot's Magic, with it she can solo your team. On the other hand, Danger can't handle a Kusar blade.
1. I never said your team wouldn't work together. I said they wouldn't let Mr. Negative corrupt them because it's an obvious violation of everything about them. Would they fight with him and work together? Yes. Would they let him take over their mind and body (especially once they saw it work on one of the other teammates)? I think not.
3. You say Blink's javelins will increase in size, but do you have an example of this? Maybe an energy attack from someone shrunken by Ray that enlarged after it was shot? Because otherwise, if it worked like everything else ever, it'd be the relative to Blink's own size like it always is.
4. Ok cool, Zealot's going alone and not super small. This makes her easy to take out. Static just magnetizes her swords and she loses them. Shields block her energy blasts as they have before and everything else is easy. As for not showing any counters...I've seen nothing she can do that makes her a threat. Show her do....something. I can address it. For now, she shoots generic blasts.
Attacking
1. The blink thing wasn't really covered, until I see proof of that.
2. If Shang can resist it, so can Static. He's resisted the Anti-Life Equation which is more powerful than the Corruption. And yeah Shang looked incapacitated, but luckily, Static has....powers. So Negative can't get that close in the first place. And if he does, instantly magnetized and stuck to a surface.
3. I don't see Ray KO'ing anyone really. Static's defenses have held up to a building falling on him, and Cyborg's right at the limits of this tourney.
The Fight
1. Both were members of the JSA. I'm almost 100% certain he'd know of Atom. It would make less sense for him not to. And I forgot, Cyborg has contacted literally every superhero via satellite before so he should know too.
2. Ray getting past electricity manipulated at the electron level...you can say 'he will cause he's an expert' but...I need feats/proof on that. That's a very vague and unproven statement.
3. The Hard light should certainly affect your team. It can make giant Sentinels that can blast entire bridges, or it can suffocate or simply trap and incapacitate your team. Don't need too much.
4. I have 6 T-Spheres, they don't ALL need to be doing everything at once so that's a pretty irrelevant point.
5. Blink can't BFR anything I named. T-Spheres can open dimensional portals, and Cyborg can Boomtube. They'd just come back. Probably BFR her to a point she can't teleport from. Like Apokolips, or just beyond the moon, or the 9th Dimension.
The Fight
1. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see a clear plan for how you take out Danger at all.
2. Also didn't see how you matched Gravity Wells, Photon Bursts, or Electricity/Lightning
3. Noise/Sound reaches subatomic levels so Cyborg should be fine hitting you. He also uses light weaponry so....
4. Static's electricity will also take you out.
Summary
It remains the same:
1. There are issues with your prep and team (corrupting your team, teleporting when subatomic, etc.)
2. Being subatomic doesn't protect you from our weapons nor allow you past our defenses
3. Nothing said or shown to put down Danger. And she can solo your team.
1. I never said your team wouldn't work together. I said they wouldn't let Mr. Negative corrupt them because it's an obvious violation of everything about them. Would they fight with him and work together? Yes. Would they let him take over their mind and body (especially once they saw it work on one of the other teammates)? I think not.
Your reasoning doesn't make sense for me. Their prime goal is to win. If they will work with whoever to win, as stated by the rules, thus knowing who Mr. Negative is and what he does, we can conclude they will cooperate with him, even if they have to be corrupted. They already agreed to work with a villain like him, the main objective outweighs any moral that they have or once had.
3. You say Blink's javelins will increase in size, but do you have an example of this? Maybe an energy attack from someone shrunken by Ray that enlarged after it was shot? Because otherwise, if it worked like everything else ever, it'd be the relative to Blink's own size like it always is.
It's only logical. If only The Atom possesses the power to alter his size down to the subatomic level, his teammates and anything else grows back to their normal size once away from him. They must be next to him otherwise the power doesn't work. This has been shown several times, like when he used the ability to shrunk himself, Superman, Flash, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman and Plastic Man to repair the links between seven shattered subatomic particles, or shrinking Steel, Supergirl and Superboy to directly treat a kryptonite tumor in Superman's body. This is accomplished by using the remnants of a white-dwarf star made into a belt buckle worn with his costume. Originally, he had to manipulate his abilities via the belt and later with hand movements before eventually syncing with his brainwaves itself.
4. Ok cool, Zealot's going alone and not super small. This makes her easy to take out. Static just magnetizes her swords and she loses them. Shields block her energy blasts as they have before and everything else is easy. As for not showing any counters...I've seen nothing she can do that makes her a threat. Show her do....something. I can address it. For now, she shoots generic blasts.
First he needs to locate her, then he must find a way to somehow manage to tag her. Now, explain me how he's going to do that if she:
Doesn't start in his line of sight;
Will use teleportation through dark sorcery;
Possess a pair of special blades that absorbs energy;
Posses enhanced vision and hearing to locate the enemy from distance.
Has Static faced an enemy that utilizes magic/mystical powers?
I'll present some feats for her in due time.
Attacking
1. The blink thing wasn't really covered, until I see proof of that.
Once again, already covered, now with more details and sources.
2. If Shang can resist it, so can Static. He's resisted the Anti-Life Equation which is more powerful than the Corruption. And yeah Shang looked incapacitated, but luckily, Static has....powers. So Negative can't get that close in the first place. And if he does, instantly magnetized and stuck to a surface.
The only thing Mr. Negatives wants to accomplish here is incapacitation. Zealot and Blink are in charge of finishing the job, and both can teleport. Mr. Negative can be placed right next to Static without him noticing, one touch and he ceases his attacks, also lowering his defenses in the proccess. From that is just a matter of seconds for either of them to finish him with one single strike.
3. I don't see Ray KO'ing anyone really. Static's defenses have held up to a building falling on him, and Cyborg's right at the limits of this tourney.
His defenses won't last forever as mentioned above. Mr. Terrific will certainly be KO'd with one punch from the Atom, he's also able to reach him without the use of his teammates teleportation powers.
The Fight
1. Both were members of the JSA. I'm almost 100% certain he'd know of Atom. It would make less sense for him not to. And I forgot, Cyborg has contacted literally every superhero via satellite before so he should know too.
So prove me then, otherwise that's all mere assumptions.
2. Ray getting past electricity manipulated at the electron level...you can say 'he will cause he's an expert' but...I need feats/proof on that. That's a very vague and unproven statement.
Seriously? Ray Palmer is Ph.D. he's known as Dr. Palmer and was a full professor at Ivy University. Being an atomic scientist and genius is what allowed him to work on a method of reducing objects in size using white dwarf star matter, leading to his size alteration powers.
3. The Hard light should certainly affect your team. It can make giant Sentinels that can blast entire bridges, or it can suffocate or simply trap and incapacitate your team. Don't need too much.
Can you prove that? Also, I don't thing those hard light could be easily done in only 10 minutes, considering all the gathering involving a preparation for a battle. Incapacitation by suffocation? Trap my team how if your team can't see them. Even if they manage to somehow detect them, which is hardly unlikely, my team makes use of teleportation, not to mention that the Atom can fly for himself. Once corrupted, my team achieves a Wolverine level of durability, since their stats are enhanced further enhanced. For example, Mr. Negative was able to resist a point blank explosion and a consequent fall of a building, and soon after he was coming out of the rubble unfazed.
Once Mr, Negative corrupts someone, he empowers them, so they become more powerfull, stronger, more durable, higher durability, healing, etc. See the Inner Demons (Mr. Negative henchmen) for example. From random thugs to empowered beings, able to regenerate from even the most lethal wounds within a matter of seconds; immediately recovering from explosions, impalement, gunshots to the head, and even getting torn apart or decapitated.
This is the level of durability, resistance, healing, etc I'm talking about. Mr. Negative survives a big explosion, followed by a building collapse and was just fine after that. You're gonna need way more than that to make some damage to my team.
Gallery
4. I have 6 T-Spheres, they don't ALL need to be doing everything at once so that's a pretty irrelevant point.
Even worse. Please show me at least two instances where Mr. Terrifics utilizes his T-Spheres to multitask, being each one of them doing a different thing. I honestly never seen it before. They are able to do many things but as long as he programs them. With 10 minutes that should not be enough to accomplish such thing.
5. Blink can't BFR anything I named. T-Spheres can open dimensional portals, and Cyborg can Boomtube. They'd just come back. Probably BFR her to a point she can't teleport from. Like Apokolips, or just beyond the moon, or the 9th Dimension.
Yes they can but your team is fighting with morals ON, while my team fights without morals. I hardly believe they would try any of that. Even if they did, it would not come from the start. I believe it would be their last resort. In top of that, I find it very difficult to any of them manage to tag Blink who can keep using successive teleports while striking your team with the javelins.
The Fight²
1. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see a clear plan for how you take out Danger at all.
Danger is not unbeatable, she's far from that. Even being the sentient embodiment of the X-Men's Danger Room, equipped with extremely advanced alien technology, aware of all of the X-Men's powers, strengths, and weaknesses. Yet, was unable to properly react to Beast when he was angry. He manage to singlehandedly thrash her out. If Beast could do that to her, imagine what Zealot could do with a Kusar blade, or Blink with a javelin strike.
Beast even stated that he would give up in the day he could not out-think a computer. The say applies for Ray Palmer (genius), who does not share the weakness of being a mutant.
2. Also didn't see how you matched Gravity Wells, Photon Bursts, or Electricity/Lightning
Already covered on the title The Fight, question 2. Check it.
3. Noise/Sound reaches subatomic levels so Cyborg should be fine hitting you. He also uses light weaponry so
Please show me an instance where Cyborg was able to reach the subatomic level with his weaponry to strike a moving enemy he can't see or detect the position.
4. Static's electricity will also take you out.
Highly unlikely as already explained.
Summary
Now you are right, It remains the same indeed.
1. There are no issues with prep or with my team.
2. You didn't proved how your team will detect mine, let alone hit them with your weapons.
3. Nothing from you to prove Danger could pose as a real threat, let alone solo my team
1. Huh? Choosing to work with a villain does NOT mean letting him corrupt everything about you and take away your morals. Begrudgingly working with Dr. Doom to save the world doesn't mean you become his lackey and help him destroy the Fantastic 4 or w/e. And you know it. No person on your team would agree to let Mr. Negative corrupt them.
3. Logical or not, unless there are feats of energy shot by a smaller being (under Atom's influence) being as large as it normally is, then it's all baseless assumption. And logically, the energy or portal is being opened by a smaller person so it would adjust itself to that size. That's how it always has been always will be. Unless when you spit, your spit turns giant the further it gets away from you too.
4. The Various tech, Danger bodies, and T-Spheres can locate Zealot just fine.
Also need feats for the blades absorbing energy. Not super doubting you, just never seen it.
Attacking
2. Static's reacted to bullets and point blank speedblitzes. The likelihood of Mr. Negative touching him without him noticing is.....well it's non existent. Not to mention that as soon as Negative and whoever teleported him got into range, they'd be charged and stuck to a surface and unable to move.
4. Atom's punch won't get off. Minute he appears, he's charged and stuck to something. Then taken down.
The Fight
1. Being in the same team should be enough. Especially considering the heights Terrific reached on said team.
2. PhD means nothing about getting past something he simply can't get past. Just because he has a PhD doesn't mean he magically can do the impossible. At subatomic size, he can't get past something that is also subatomic and a defensive forcefield unless you have feats. Simple as. I mean that's like saying that since Terrific has vastly higher accomplishments to his name like learning the space/time continuum at 7, he can automatically beat your entire team because he's 'smart'.
3. Huh? Hard light is instant. It doesn't take time. And for your durability, it's not better than Mr. Sinister who was easily taken down by Danger. In droves.
5. Danger doesn't really have morals. She'll do whatever is the most efficient to finish this. And lucky for me, she is guaranteed to be the last one standing.
Fight^2
1. That's early Danger. I've showed her reforming from nearly nothing and taking on far better people than Beast. So Zealot won't have a chance. And if she does hit Danger, it'll likely be a hard light construct. Then she'll be suffocated and incapacitated.
3. I don't have to show him hitting a small opponent (cause he's never had that) if his weapons naturally hit subatomic people and he has microscopic vision, as shown here:
1. Outside of your team not being corrupted and Blink's teleporting not working when she's subatomic, your team has no way to get past Static's defenses even if everything went to plan. You will also be magnetized and stuck to a surface if you get close at all
2. T-Spheres still take you out as said before (no counter to that)
3. Cyborg and Danger both have experience seeing and detecting small things, and Atom's belt IS tech, which both can detect and interface with
4. Cyborg still hits your team with his white noise cannon
5. Danger takes your team out with hard light constructs
6. We still win
Summary
1. No counter to Static's electricity defense and offense
2. No counter to White Noise
3. No counter to T-Spheres
4. Your team's not gonna be corrupted or able to mount an offense or teleport when subatomic
5. No way to survive or counter hard light constructs/holograms
6. No way to put down Danger or avoid a BFR to the moon or somewhere. Even if she is the last one left, and somehow you got past all the stuff you had no counter for, she'd still solo with her own feats and the tech around her.
@sirfizzwhizz: Honestly I've let this one aside considering it's a final, and I'm working a debate with and against DR in two different tourneys. But now you asked I realized that you have your own personal business and new tourneys to run so I'm sorry for the delay. But since I'm off duty now I'll have time to finish this.
1. Huh? Choosing to work with a villain does NOT mean letting him corrupt everything about you and take away your morals. Begrudgingly working with Dr. Doom to save the world doesn't mean you become his lackey and help him destroy the Fantastic 4 or w/e. And you know it. No person on your team would agree to let Mr. Negative corrupt them.
Once again you fail to understand the whole picture or just ignore the fact that there's no way for a team not to work with him considering the rules stipulate that characters will do what's necessary to win, regardless of who they are teaming up with. It makes no sense to question it since once they already choose to work with Mr. Negative despite the fact he's known for his corruption powers. The end justifies the means.They already agreed to work with him from rules.
3. Logical or not, unless there are feats of energy shot by a smaller being (under Atom's influence) being as large as it normally is, then it's all baseless assumption. And logically, the energy or portal is being opened by a smaller person so it would adjust itself to that size. That's how it always has been always will be. Unless when you spit, your spit turns giant the further it gets away from you too.
I don't need to present you said feats considering I've already shown sources from The Atom issues. Baseless assumption is your whole prep for this fight, since you did not presented one single evidence to prove it could be done in measly ten minutes. Not to mention that my team can always make use of teleports to attack, go back to shrinking, teleport again, and so on. They don't need to resort to one specific move the entire battle, since my team is way too versatile and unpredictable for that.
4. The Various tech, Danger bodies, and T-Spheres can locate Zealot just fine.
That's a big of a stretch from your part unless you can prove it has been done on a major scale the one they find themselves in.
Also need feats for the blades absorbing energy. Not super doubting you, just never seen it.
Sure, no problem at all. It happened in Captain Atom: Armageddon #4: Where we see a fight between Zealot and Captain Atom where her kusar blade blocks one of his energy blasts. She even gives an explanation about its capabilities
Attacking
2. Static's reacted to bullets and point blank speedblitzes. The likelihood of Mr. Negative touching him without him noticing is.....well it's non existent. Not to mention that as soon as Negative and whoever teleported him got into range, they'd be charged and stuck to a surface and unable to move.
4. Atom's punch won't get off. Minute he appears, he's charged and stuck to something. Then taken down.
React to bullets fired by random characters or not is not enough to cover him. He's dealing with teleports here, far more fast than bullets. So Mr. Negative will reach him through a teleport and won't have to bother with anything else, he just need to touch him and that's it, Static will only be able to resist to the corruption and that would be enough for my team, since according to the strategy part of the team manage to incapacitate the enemy in order to Zealot finish the job by killing them with her blade. I doubt my team would get "stuck to something" considering they can teleport in and out whenever they want.
The Fight
1. Being in the same team should be enough. Especially considering the heights Terrific reached on said team.
Once again, it's a baseless assumption.
2. PhD means nothing about getting past something he simply can't get past. Just because he has a PhD doesn't mean he magically can do the impossible. At subatomic size, he can't get past something that is also subatomic and a defensive forcefield unless you have feats. Simple as. I mean that's like saying that since Terrific has vastly higher accomplishments to his name like learning the space/time continuum at 7, he can automatically beat your entire team because he's 'smart'.
It means something when he packs enough knowledge to deal with such things.
3. Huh? Hard light is instant. It doesn't take time. And for your durability, it's not better than Mr. Sinister who was easily taken down by Danger. In droves. Those are some danger feats. Some to counter the Hard Light thing (and I have more) and some for later.
Great, so bring more then, cause those feats means nothing to this fight. None of my team members are going to engage her in a fist fight, or stand still waiting to be blasted my a hard light or sentinel holograms. Also, they are nothing to Zealot and her energy absorbing blades.
4. Um...You realize Danger and Cyborg are also interfaced with and helping to control the T-Spheres as well right? Anyways:
First you need to read and follow the rules:
Gear must be standard and follow above rules. Summons are limited to 6.
Mr. Terrific doesn't carry thousands of T-Spheres in a standard fashion, once again you are stretching things up to the highest level, you need to stop that. You also need to read your own scans, since in one of them he was in his T-Sanctuary, so he can't bring that much outside help into this battle.
5. Danger doesn't really have morals. She'll do whatever is the most efficient to finish this. And lucky for me, she is guaranteed to be the last one standing.
That's not a problem at all for my team, especially for Zealot and her blades. They will cut through Danger just fine like hot knife in a butter.
Fight²
1. That's early Danger. I've showed her reforming from nearly nothing and taking on far better people than Beast. So Zealot won't have a chance. And if she does hit Danger, it'll likely be a hard light construct. Then she'll be suffocated and incapacitated.
Danger's abilities are very inconsistent, don't expect me to believe she would manage to perform all that at the highest level possible. Also, she can reform from being BFR, or have her parts teleported to another dimension.
3. I don't have to show him hitting a small opponent (cause he's never had that) if his weapons naturally hit subatomic people and he has microscopic vision, as shown here
It only shows him seeing an object and a person who is motionless. Not enough to prove he could properly react to a subatomic teleporter.
Melee
1. Outside of your team not being corrupted and Blink's teleporting not working when she's subatomic, your team has no way to get past Static's defenses even if everything went to plan. You will also be magnetized and stuck to a surface if you get close at all
The Atom possess dimensional manipulation, he can travel across dimensional barriers. That's what his power is all about. I've already presented proof for this but you keep ignoring it. (Who's Who: Update '88#1)
2. T-Spheres still take you out as said before (no counter to that).
Your thousands T-Spheres I've just debunked? I don't think so..
3. Cyborg and Danger both have experience seeing and detecting small things, and Atom's belt IS tech, which both can detect and interface with
Once again you are deeply wrong. Originally, he had to manipulate his abilities via the belt and later with hand movements before eventually syncing with his brainwaves itself.
4. Cyborg still hits your team with his white noise cannon
Can't hit what he can't see or properly tag a team of teleporters.
5. Danger takes your team out with hard light constructs
Once again, those hard lights constructs are useless against Zealot who is slicing your team unnoticed.
Summary
No counter for Zealot's Magic and Blades; Blink javelins; Mr. Negative's corruption and The Atom dimensional power. Basically you have no answer for the great combo of versatile powers my team has to offer, while your team focus on pure tech.
I will explain my vote in 4 different sections (inspired by @lukehero)
Formatting
Both of you had clear, readable format, but one was clearly better than the other in this regard. I liked how Higor referenced specific sections of his previous posts and listed his sources. I also didn't like how DarkRaiden didn't quote his opponent. I dislike having to scroll up for every point that you make. With that being said I am nitpicking, and I'm not going to take this into account. I also thought Higor's use of scans was timely and effective.
HigorM: A+
DarkRaiden: A-
Eloquence and Brevity
Higor, don't make typos. revise your posts. Overall your phrases were easy to understand and flowed well; just make sure autocorrect didn't screw up.
DarkRaiden, try to avoid use of overly colloquial terms and increase your eloquence. Phrases such as "um..." or "huh?" do not add to your argument. "I don't see how that makes sense" or "I disagree because..." are better substitutes. But, there wasn't a big enough difference here to matter all that much.
HigorM: A-
DarkRaiden: B
Strategy
I thought Higor's strategy was, if we do not take rebuttals into account, vastly more effective than DarkRaiden's. Going small, corrupting, and sniping magic blasts from a distance are all difficult things to counter. Good job using the powers to create a multifaceted, versatile team.
DarkRaiden's was pretty good too, but not on the level of Higor's. T-Spheres and technopathy isn't very creative, and it was DR's best combo imo. And, he failed to prove they could do it in ten minutes (but Higor didn't really pressure him on this). But, they did do a good job.
HigorM: A
DarkRaiden: B+
The actual debate
This is where DarkRaiden really shined. I understood that Higor's teammates may not want to be corrupted, and saw that Blink may not be able to teleport 6 feet (though eventually I thought Higor proved she could, and I thought that nobody on Higor's team knew who Mr. Negative was so they wouldn't be wary of his influence). I also saw Danger's subatomic vision as extremely useful, and I was convinced that Zealot could be found. However, he also had notable holes in his plan, such as Mr. Terrific not carrying more than 6 T-Spheres.
He also, as always, was pressing Higor for feats, but when asked for feats himself, didn't show them. Perhaps this was because he didn't have such feats.
DarkRaiden proved to me that the subatomic people wouldn't get through his defense.
But, he didn't talk about Zealot as much as he should have. When your opponent is saying one of his characters could solo, you need to address that and show why that's not a possibility. I left the debate still thinking Zealot's magic could breach eventually and she would beat down DR's team. Although I thought that Danger could reform from T-Spheres, I thought Zealot could defeat those as well.
DarkRaiden: A-
HigorM: B
Result
In the end, Higor was too versatile and had too many ways to beat DarkRaiden.
If DarkRaiden had just spent more time on Zealot, then the outcome would have been vastly different.
Though @darkraiden countered nearly all of Higor's points, he neglected one of the more important ones: Zealot. Thus, I give my vote to @higorm.
Alright I read it, now time to vote. First let me say it was a good debate, brief, but pretty interesting.
Grades:
Word Smithing:
Higorm: A-
Dark Raiden: B-
Hirgorm's words and style as well as his formatting was a lot better than Dark Raiden's IMO. Only thing is, neither one of you did a character intro in this thread. As a tourney man myself, I think you always at least need to copy and paste a quick character power guide for your voters who may not know anything about these characters.
Any who Higorm quoted Dark Raiden very well and broke down each little bit, which I really thought flowed well.
Raiden, I'm with the Blue Beetle, saying "Um" & "Huh" in your writings really doesn't add anything to your argument & it's often distracting.
Scans:
Higorm: A-
Dark Raiden: B+
I thought you both did a pretty good job of using your scans and talking about how they would apply to the battle. Only major goof I saw was when DR tried to pass off that thousands of t spheres scan when summonings are limited to 6.
Counters:
Higorm: B-
Dark Raiden: A
I think Raiden's counters were better because he was more specif on how he would take down Higorm's team. Also I found his team's defenses very impressive. Also he challenged a lot of Higorm's subatomic tactics.
I thought some of Hig's counters fell flat for me. I don't think he ever really got in the ABC's of how he was gonna take down Danger and he's anti counters to DR challenges didn't go well in my eyes.
Example:
Higorm:
Beast even stated that he would give up in the day he could not out-think a computer. The say applies for Ray Palmer (genius), who does not share the weakness of being a mutant.
Dark Raiden:
2. PhD means nothing about getting past something he simply can't get past. Just because he has a PhD doesn't mean he magically can do the impossible. At subatomic size, he can't get past something that is also subatomic and a defensive forcefield unless you have feats. Simple as. I mean that's like saying that since Terrific has vastly higher accomplishments to his name like learning the space/time continuum at 7, he can automatically beat your entire team because he's 'smart'.
Prep:
Higorm: A-
Dark Raiden: A
I thought both of you used your prep wisely and was pretty impressive. Only thing is I had to suspend by disbelief because you both were trying to do a lot in 10 mins. I think Higorm challenged Raiden's prep a bit, but didn't force the issue. He probably should of pressed a bit more. Raiden challenged Hirgorm's prep on the issue of Mr. Negative Corrupting his teammates . I know Sirfizz made a ruling on how teamwork was going to be, but I couldn't completely ignore DR point that Mr. Negatives teammates were just going to sit there and let themselves be corrupted.
Overall:
Hirgorm: A-
Dark Raiden: A
Overall Dark Raiden's specif counters & challenges towards Higorm's prep & strategy really won me over. This won was a really close one, but DR actually edge it out for me.
So basically I agree with what both Luke and TNBB said, even though they had different outcomes. A thing I'd like to bring up is something Luke said.
Only thing is, neither one of you did a character intro in this thread. As a tourney man myself, I think you always at least need to copy and paste a quick character power guide for your voters who may not know anything about these characters.
I, myself, don't know too much about some characters on these teams and would have gotten a better understanding of the battle if an intro would have been provided. All in all, I think DR countered Higor's strategy very well. He won me over with his debating the subatomic scaling bit, which makes perfect sense to me and really wasn't countered at all by Higor that I could see. Higor came into this fight with a much better battle plan and was a lot more organized with some of his arguments than DR was, but in the end it's the context that wins the battle and not how it looks. I don't think anyone on Higor's team would be able to get close enough to Static to corrupt him if it work via touch which I assume it does, so that kind of throws a wrench into Higor's overall plan. Without any proof that he would be able to get past all the defenses set up by DR, I can't really imagine or think of a time when Ray has shown something like that.
All in all, I am giving my vote to Darkraiden simply because his counter arguments were better even though Higor had the better plan from the starting.
@higorm: you earned my vote here brother. I very nearly voted for darkraiden however, and this is one of the closest matches I have seen either of you in. Honestly, on paper....darkraidens team should win it is a testament of your debating skills that you convinced me otherwise. Barely.
Sorry for the brief vote description, on mobile and very busy. But I gave my word that I would vote, and made sure to follow through....
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