#1 Posted by chaos-soul (1435 posts) - - Show Bio
by Silvestri
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
VS. 

Avengers Alliance Alternate Costume
Humberto Ramos Iceman
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
All At highest showings except for the darkness because his highest is fighting superman.
no blood lust
no what appears to be phoenix force for Ms. m
they are all familiar with each other and their abilities
no darklings for Jackie (he will use his powers similar to venom)
round one random encounter
round two start 60 feet away
in Madison square garden
#2 Posted by chaos-soul (1435 posts) - - Show Bio

No takers?? oh well

#3 Posted by Lady_Liberty (8279 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not sure who the Top Cow characters are, could you post links to their pages?

#4 Posted by hyiena (1790 posts) - - Show Bio

The first two are the Darkness and Witchblade.

#5 Posted by GrandSymbiote94 (11599 posts) - - Show Bio

TopCow characters FTW. Spidey's a non factor.

#6 Posted by drgnx (3560 posts) - - Show Bio

@chaos-soul: The least you could do is name the fighters. <.<

#7 Posted by GrandSymbiote94 (11599 posts) - - Show Bio
#8 Posted by Lady_Liberty (8279 posts) - - Show Bio

@GrandSymbiote94: Thanks :-)

Seems like the Top Cow characters have a large advantage here.

#9 Posted by blacharrt (1567 posts) - - Show Bio

Marvel for the Win. Iceman being the deciding factor.
Being able to completely stop Darkness, WitchBlade from even thinking or forming a thought by messing with their bloodflow. Just slowing them atomically to the point where they can't even move.  Micheal Finnegan got punked in Artifacts series and got his artifact stolen from him.  It would be more than easy for Iceman to take it from him without much effort. But he doesn't have the feats as Iceman does and isn't in his league.  Binary, could handle Witchblade if she goes all out.  Spiderman with Darkness's limit to vemon like powers could easily go venom spiderman's way. Spiderman is simply more agile and jackie does not have a precog ability to my knowledge.

#10 Posted by GrandSymbiote94 (11599 posts) - - Show Bio
@chaos-soul: Is this Binary Ms. Marvel? Or regular Ms. Marvel?
#11 Posted by SoA (4772 posts) - - Show Bio
#12 Posted by GrandSymbiote94 (11599 posts) - - Show Bio
@blacharrt said:
Marvel for the Win. Iceman being the deciding factor. Being able to completely stop Darkness, WitchBlade from even thinking or forming a thought by messing with their bloodflow. Just slowing them atomically to the point where they can't even move.  Micheal Finnegan got punked in Artifacts series and got his artifact stolen from him.  It would be more than easy for Iceman to take it from him without much effort. But he doesn't have the feats as Iceman does and isn't in his league.  Binary, could handle Witchblade if she goes all out.  Spiderman with Darkness's limit to vemon like powers could easily go venom spiderman's way. Spiderman is simply more agile and jackie does not have a precog ability to my knowledge.
Jackie's powers and Venom's powers are completly different. Jackie can summon darklings (I think that's what they're called.), Manipulate darkness around him, and tons of other stuff. Spider-Man is not in Jackie's league IMO. Also how did someone steal the Glacier stone from Micheal?
#13 Edited by Wyldsong (5320 posts) - - Show Bio

@blacharrt said:

Marvel for the Win. Iceman being the deciding factor. Being able to completely stop Darkness, WitchBlade from even thinking or forming a thought by messing with their bloodflow. Just slowing them atomically to the point where they can't even move. Micheal Finnegan got punked in Artifacts series and got his artifact stolen from him. It would be more than easy for Iceman to take it from him without much effort. But he doesn't have the feats as Iceman does and isn't in his league. Binary, could handle Witchblade if she goes all out. Spiderman with Darkness's limit to vemon like powers could easily go venom spiderman's way. Spiderman is simply more agile and jackie does not have a precog ability to my knowledge.

How does Iceman stop the guy who the Darkness will just keep reforming and bringing back? That Darkness page does not even touch half of what Jackie is capable of.

#14 Edited by Strider92 (16242 posts) - - Show Bio

Darkness could potentially solo. He's been able to kill people from the inside out (due to the fact he can manipulate anywhere its dark and there's no light inside the human body).

#15 Posted by Wyldsong (5320 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92 said:

Darkness could potentially solo. He's been able to kill people from the inside out (due to the fact he can manipulate anywhere its dark and there's no light inside the human body).

I think the argument will come up that Bobby could just reform from anything, but Jackie could potentially BFR him I guess.

#16 Posted by Strider92 (16242 posts) - - Show Bio

@Wyldsong said:

I think the argument will come up that Bobby could just reform from anything, but Jackie could potentially BFR him I guess.

True but Icemans abilities are dependent on his physical condition. Both of them are going to reform every-time the other one gets destroyed the only difference is that Iceman has a limit (I believe 5 hours was the longest he could use his ability before he becomes fatigued). Whereas Jackie can keep reforming as long as there's darkness.

All Jackie has to do is wear down Bobby enough until he just can't reform anymore and he'll win via incapacitation.

#17 Posted by chaos-soul (1435 posts) - - Show Bio

in frost giant form Finnegan is almost immortal. i limited the darkness to venom like powers other wise he would be op.
I don't know why i figured that everyone would know who they are. 
but i think black suit spidey is a fair match for Jackie with the limitations i placed on him i mean he is no weakling he can stagger a base hulk.
I figured that Witch blade and Ms. marvel would be pretty fair.

#18 Edited by blacharrt (1567 posts) - - Show Bio
@GrandSymbiote94 said: @Wyldsong:

@blacharrt said:

Marvel for the Win. Iceman being the deciding factor. Being able to completely stop Darkness, WitchBlade from even thinking or forming a thought by messing with their bloodflow. Just slowing them atomically to the point where they can't even move.  Micheal Finnegan got punked in Artifacts series and got his artifact stolen from him.  It would be more than easy for Iceman to take it from him without much effort. But he doesn't have the feats as Iceman does and isn't in his league.  Binary, could handle Witchblade if she goes all out.  Spiderman with Darkness's limit to vemon like powers could easily go venom spiderman's way. Spiderman is simply more agile and jackie does not have a precog ability to my knowledge.
Jackie's powers and Venom's powers are completly different. Jackie can summon darklings (I think that's what they're called.), Manipulate darkness around him, and tons of other stuff. Spider-Man is not in Jackie's league IMO. Also how did someone steal the Glacier stone from Micheal?
Did you not read the rules of this Thread.  It says he can't use Darklings and he is using venom type abilities, which would put him on par with venom spiderman.
To Wyldsong, if Iceman brings his molecules to a stopor slows on a subatomic level, he won't be able to regen fast enough or at all. If he brings them to absolute zero, they would stop completely.
#19 Edited by Wyldsong (5320 posts) - - Show Bio

@blacharrt said:

@GrandSymbiote94 said: @Wyldsong:

@blacharrt said:

Marvel for the Win. Iceman being the deciding factor. Being able to completely stop Darkness, WitchBlade from even thinking or forming a thought by messing with their bloodflow. Just slowing them atomically to the point where they can't even move. Micheal Finnegan got punked in Artifacts series and got his artifact stolen from him. It would be more than easy for Iceman to take it from him without much effort. But he doesn't have the feats as Iceman does and isn't in his league. Binary, could handle Witchblade if she goes all out. Spiderman with Darkness's limit to vemon like powers could easily go venom spiderman's way. Spiderman is simply more agile and jackie does not have a precog ability to my knowledge.
Jackie's powers and Venom's powers are completly different. Jackie can summon darklings (I think that's what they're called.), Manipulate darkness around him, and tons of other stuff. Spider-Man is not in Jackie's league IMO. Also how did someone steal the Glacier stone from Micheal?
Did you not read the rules of this Thread. It says he can't use Darklings and he is using venom type abilities, which would put him on par with venom spiderman. To Wyldsong, if Iceman brings his molecules to a stopor slows on a subatomic level, he won't be able to regen fast enough or at all. If he brings them to absolute zero, they would stop completely.

Jackie won't have to worry about regeneration. The darkness itself just reforms him. He doesn't regen like Wolverine, the Darkness just won't let him die. Bobby can't affect the primordial force of the darkness itself, just Jackie's physical form, which the darkness can keep bringing back.

#20 Posted by chaos-soul (1435 posts) - - Show Bio
@Wyldsong said:

@blacharrt said:

@GrandSymbiote94 said: @Wyldsong:

@blacharrt said:

Marvel for the Win. Iceman being the deciding factor. Being able to completely stop Darkness, WitchBlade from even thin king or forming a thought by messing with their bloodflow. Just slowing them atomically to the point where they can't even move. Micheal Finnegan got punked in Artifacts series and got his artifact stolen from him. It would be more than easy for Iceman to take it from him without much effort. But he doesn't have the feats as Iceman does and isn't in his league. Binary, could handle Witchblade if she goes all out. Spiderman with Darkness's limit to vemon like powers could easily go venom spiderman's way. Spiderman is simply more agile and jackie does not have a precog ability to my knowledge.
Jackie's powers and Venom's powers are completly different. Jackie can summon darklings (I think that's what the y're called.), Manipulate darkness around him, and tons of o ther stuff. Spider-Man is not in Jackie's league IMO. Also how did someone steal the Glacier stone from Micheal?
Did you not read the rules of this Thread. It says he can't use Darklings and he is using venom type abilities, which would put him on par with venom spiderman. To Wyldsong, if Iceman brings his molecules to a stopor slows on a subatomic level, he won't be able to regen fast enough or at all. If he brings the m to absolute zero, they would stop completely.

Jackie won't have to worry about regeneration. The darkness itself will reform him. He doesn't regen like Wolverine, the Darkness just won't let him die. Bobby can't affect the primordial force of the darkness itself, just Jackie's physical form, which the darkness can keep bringing back.

it does take time for the darkness to bring Jackie back though. so while he would be being brought back it would be 2 v 3
Could Sara and Finnegan hold out long enough for him to come back?
#21 Edited by Wyldsong (5320 posts) - - Show Bio

@chaos-soul said:

@Wyldsong said:

@blacharrt said:

@GrandSymbiote94 said: @Wyldsong:

@blacharrt said:

Marvel for the Win. Iceman being the deciding factor. Being able to completely stop Darkness, WitchBlade from even thin king or forming a thought by messing with their bloodflow. Just slowing them atomically to the point where they can't even move. Micheal Finnegan got punked in Artifacts series and got his artifact stolen from him. It would be more than easy for Iceman to take it from him without much effort. But he doesn't have the feats as Iceman does and isn't in his league. Binary, could handle Witchblade if she goes all out. Spiderman with Darkness's limit to vemon like powers could easily go venom spiderman's way. Spiderman is simply more agile and jackie does not have a precog ability to my knowledge.
Jackie's powers and Venom's powers are completly different. Jackie can summon darklings (I think that's what the y're called.), Manipulate darkness around him, and tons of o ther stuff. Spider-Man is not in Jackie's league IMO. Also how did someone steal the Glacier stone from Micheal?
Did you not read the rules of this Thread. It says he can't use Darklings and he is using venom type abilities, which would put him on par with venom spiderman. To Wyldsong, if Iceman brings his molecules to a stopor slows on a subatomic level, he won't be able to regen fast enough or at all. If he brings the m to absolute zero, they would stop completely.

Jackie won't have to worry about regeneration. The darkness itself will reform him. He doesn't regen like Wolverine, the Darkness just won't let him die. Bobby can't affect the primordial force of the darkness itself, just Jackie's physical form, which the darkness can keep bringing back.

it does take time for the darkness to bring Jackie back though. so while he would be being brought back it would be 2 v 3 Could Sara and Finnegan hold out long enough for him to come back?

The Witchblade can bring Sarah back as well, can heal others, and is exceedingly versatile and powerful as a weapon (increases her strength, durability, speed and reaction, plus all of its other powers). I think they would be fine. I don't see Sarah as having any issues with Ms Marvel or Spidey (and it hurts to say that because I love me some Spidey). Bobby is the biggest factor, but the top cow team has two characters with artifacts that can keep bringing them back (my memory is fuzzy on Finnegan).

As for limiting Jackie...you can find other characters to replace him (Ian Nottingham, one of the Aphrodites, members of Cyberforce, and so on). It just seems awkward to limit him so much, especially when he really doesn't apply his powers in the same way as Venom (very different abilities).

One of these days, I am going to fix Jackie's page on this site.

#22 Posted by Wyldsong (5320 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92 said:

@Wyldsong said:

I think the argument will come up that Bobby could just reform from anything, but Jackie could potentially BFR him I guess.

True but Icemans abilities are dependent on his physical condition. Both of them are going to reform every-time the other one gets destroyed the only difference is that Iceman has a limit (I believe 5 hours was the longest he could use his ability before he becomes fatigued). Whereas Jackie can keep reforming as long as there's darkness.

All Jackie has to do is wear down Bobby enough until he just can't reform anymore and he'll win via incapacitation.

Personally, I don't know Bobby's reformation limits, but I can see this as a valid point if so.

#23 Posted by Phylos (2641 posts) - - Show Bio

TopCows 'Iceman' has an artifact that grants him those abilities, somewhat divine/magical. Has Marvels Iceman ever fought someone who manipulated ice through those means? I ask because manipulation through either form has different properties, same thing with fire vs hellfire. For example, if Magma & Selene blasted each other fire/hellfire, Magma would die since hellfire burns the soul & body instead of just the body.

#24 Posted by blacharrt (1567 posts) - - Show Bio
@Wyldsong: anywhere there is moisture and atoms, yes iceman can effect. Madison square garden definitely has both.  Since there is no set condition for a Win, but generally if someone is KO'ed they are out of the match. Regardless if he eventually can comes back.  They have no way of KOing Iceman at all or countering his ability.  And Binary's Powers would be more than Witchblade could handle, she could just knock her into space with one punch, and I've seen witchblade dropped by an explosion.  Jackie as powerful as he is, with the limits in this thread couldn't beat spiderman.  He's not Agile enough, to even hit him.
#25 Edited by Wyldsong (5320 posts) - - Show Bio

@blacharrt said:

@Wyldsong: anywhere there is moisture and atoms, yes iceman can effect. Madison square garden definitely has both. Since there is no set condition for a Win, but generally if someone is KO'ed they are out of the match. Regardless if he eventually can comes back. They have no way of KOing Iceman at all or countering his ability. And Binary's Powers would be more than Witchblade could handle, she could just knock her into space with one punch, and I've seen witchblade dropped by an explosion. Jackie as powerful as he is, with the limits in this thread couldn't beat spiderman. He's not Agile enough, to even hit him.

And these artifacts again can keep bringing back their wielders, and Bobby is not stopping the primordial darkness, as it is not physically sitting in Madison Square Garden, and doesn't truly have a form for him to affect -- he cannot put down Jackie. The Witchblade often reacts faster than Sarah to threats, and I have seen her come through explosions before, take hits, and tag people faster than her (thanks to the Witchblade). The Witchblade can take down Binary, especially if it strikes first. Spiderman can't put down Jackie (he most definitely has tanked explosions). The limits to Jackie are a bit extreme here, but the fight isn't anywhere near as simple for team Marvel as you make it sound. And if the limits on Bobby are true, that he can be worn down...Jackie doesn't have that problem, as the darkness won't let him die.

#26 Posted by drgnx (3560 posts) - - Show Bio

@GrandSymbiote94: Thanks :)

#27 Posted by Strider92 (16242 posts) - - Show Bio

@blacharrt: I heard Iceman can only use his powers for 5 hours before tiring: http://www.comicvine.com/iceman/29-1464/ (look under weakness's).

Jackie doesn't have a limit to how many times he can reform as long as darkness is present. Thus he can keep ripping Iceman to pieces from the inside out indefinitely until Iceman tires and is KO'd.

#28 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

TopCOW.

#29 Edited by blacharrt (1567 posts) - - Show Bio
@Strider92: Not true at all, When Iceman was dying in his human body, he had to stay in his Iceman Form which let him heal while his physical body recovered.  That recovery lasted a lot longer than 5 hours. Also the period where he could not change back into human form at all. So that would be incorrect. Also you're quoting the weakness wrong, it says "constantly using his powers" which means without stopping. He doesn't need to do that here, he can bring an area to close to absolute zero within seconds, which was shown when he and Cable had to defuse a massive bomb.  Iceman had to bring it close to absolute zero while simultaneously shielding Cable from the affect to weaken the metal casing around the bomb.  Also he is an Omega level mutant, his powers are literally limitless.  Also as long as he's in Iceform he can't be killed, and even in a gas form he can still manipulate his powers.  Also is the only person on this roster who has shown internal and well as external control in a person's body.

@Wyldsong

: do you not understand that it counts at a lose? It does not matter if they regenerate. If they're KO'ed they are out of the fight. Same would go for Wolverine, in a matchup or the Hulk.  Witchblade may sometimes do that (take over the Host), but it often doesn't and she has to rely on her regeneration to survive.  The Witchblade is not going to stop Binary from Punching her into orbit, and although She may survive the punch, she would be BFR off of the battlefield, which counts as a lost as well.  Witchblade does not have the same combat reaction as regular Ms. Marvel and could not fight on par with Binary on any level. The Witchblade (Sara) can't teleport to my knowledge so she would lose. Any blasted used on Binary would only fuel her powers, and make her more powerful.
 
You're right about the Darkness's durability, he is pretty much invincible, but Spiderman is one of the smartest men in MU, definitely in the top 10, and has gone up against Juggs, and Hulk.  he'd find a way to beat him.  And before you bring up superman, 1. Superman is weak against magic, everyone and their mom knows this fact.  2. All of the Artifacts are magical divine things and gives the wearer those properties. So going toe to toe with superman with magic isn't the same as going at him with raw strength. The Darkness, Angelus, and Witchblade i think it was said those 3 were there at the beginning of all things. Should do some serious damage to superman. Spiderman is just far to agile, and the pre-cog ability, mixed with his fighting skills would be able to hold Jackie off long enough for Binary and Iceman to jump in. If Jackie was trained by someone on Ironfist's level in martial art, then I'd say he could contend with Spiderman in h2h. The fact that vemon is attached to Spiderman means all his natural abilities are enhanced.  
 
There is no way Jackie could can win solo against the three of them.
Marvel takes this.
 
@Phylos: To answer your question there is nothing about this particular artifact that gives it a magical or divine property.  It is unlike the Darkness, Angelus, or Witchblade, these 3 are special due to the fact that they were there at the dawn of creation from what i remember of the story. They seem more symbiotic, then the rest,  The other Artifacts seem interchangable. except for the 13th.  I didn't finish the series so i'll have to play catchup. But Literally anyone can wield The Glacier stone as long as they take it from the owner, this is Why Iceman could easily win against him.  he can control Ice on a subatomic and atomic level, not just create Ice, but manipulate it as a solid, gas and liquid.
#30 Posted by Wyldsong (5320 posts) - - Show Bio

@blacharrt said:

: do you not understand that it counts at a lose? It does not matter if they regenerate. If they're KO'ed they are out of the fight. Same would go for Wolverine, in a matchup or the Hulk. Witchblade may sometimes do that (take over the Host), but it often doesn't and she has to rely on her regeneration to survive. The Witchblade is not going to stop Binary from Punching her into orbit, and although She may survive the punch, she would be BFR off of the battlefield, which counts as a lost as well. Witchblade does not have the same combat reaction as regular Ms. Marvel and could not fight on par with Binary on any level. The Witchblade (Sara) can't teleport to my knowledge so she would lose. Any blasted used on Binary would only fuel her powers, and make her more powerful.

You're right about the Darkness's durability, he is pretty much invincible, but Spiderman is one of the smartest men in MU, definitely in the top 10, and has gone up against Juggs, and Hulk. he'd find a way to beat him. And before you bring up superman, 1. Superman is weak against magic, everyone and their mom knows this fact. 2. All of the Artifacts are magical divine things and gives the wearer those properties. So going toe to toe with superman with magic isn't the same as going at him with raw strength. The Darkness, Angelus, and Witchblade i think it was said those 3 were there at the beginning of all things. Should do some serious damage to superman. Spiderman is just far to agile, and the pre-cog ability, mixed with his fighting skills would be able to hold Jackie off long enough for Binary and Iceman to jump in. If Jackie was trained by someone on Ironfist's level in martial art, then I'd say he could contend with Spiderman in h2h. The fact that vemon is attached to Spiderman means all his natural abilities are enhanced.

There is no way Jackie could can win solo against the three of them.
Marvel takes this.

First, let's talk about the Darkness and Superman -- why would I, and why are you, bringing up a non canon showing? Last I checked, that is what it was. The Darkness, at his highest, could solo this, bar none. Spiderman, has no way to put him down, even neutered as Jackie is, neither does Bobby and Binary, as again the Darkness, won't let him die. Spiderman, at his highest, was unipower, which would be a stomp for team marvel with these restrictions, but it was stated black suit Spidey a few posts down, not symbiote, and I think it is debatable as to whether symbiote Spidey or the Other was more powerful. Regardless, Spidey has no way to put him down, none. And Jackie has plenty of strength/endurance feats, so we don't need to pull a noncanon Superman fight.

As for Sarah, we are talking the characters at their highest, and the Witchblade has been shown manipulate the powers of the Darkness and the Angelus -- being the offspring of both. We are talking about an artifact that has been shown to summon darklings and the darkness powers of creation, has shown high levels of strength without the upper limits really being tested, will react to danger before the host at its highest, has taken wielders on trips through time to view events in the past, an artifact that has even drained the immortality out of someone and has taken down beings meant to destroy/change the world. Your right, it often doesn't react, because Sarah and it often want different things...but at their highest? Yeah, it's going to react, and I think the offspring of two primal forces of the universe has the power to do the job. And you are talking about her absorbing the Witchblades blasts? You do realize this is a supernatural entity...what is her track record against supernatural/magic/mystic type blasts? Is this something she has been shown to handle?

The Darkness was first, God said let there be light, and the Angelus came about, and later on down the line, the Witchblade was born of a union of the Angelus and the Darkness. So, they weren't all there at the begining for clarification -- 1) Darkness, 2) Angelus, and 3) Witchblade.

Even if it ended with Jackie versus the three of them...they have no way to put him down unless they have a way to get to the primordial force of the Darkness and take it out first? Because again, the Darkness won't let Jackie die.

Two wielders of two of the most powerful artifacts, and the nearly immortal Finnegan with two artifacts -- we did say their highest and he once wielded two artifacts. Look, you think team Marvel wins, and I don't have a problem with that, but I think you highly, highly underestimate the Top Cow team. I really don't have the time to debate it much further, but I will be happy to come back and discuss this when I have gotten off my lazy bum and updated the Witchblade and Darkness pages, and put out a long planned but not yet initiated respect page showing the full scale of the two artifacts -- because I have yet to find anything that even comes close to listing what these artifacts are capable of.

At best, I see a draw, and nothing has been brought forth to convince me otherwise. So, agree to disagree my friend and leave it be for now.

I have stated before, I find this battle somewhat odd with the setup. Finnegan I don't feel is fleshed out enough, or maybe my memory is just far too fuzzy on him. Jackie is limited far too much in this fight (but at full power could solo this), and I find Spiderman to be an awkward fit here. No offense to the OP on the battle, as I can see the intent here, but I think in implementation it doesn't really pan out. I do give the OP a big thumbs up for bringing some Top Cow characters into a battle thread though.

#31 Posted by IcePrince_X (4865 posts) - - Show Bio

Top Cow characters win this hands down.

The Darkness can solo these characters - his powers are god-like and needless to say he can summon and created unlimited demons to fight his enemies.

Witchblade can solo these characters. - hers is the power that always counter-act any force given to its host and to itself...needless to say, it can absorb energy blasts as well as absorb energy to augment its powers. The witchblade also can cover the entire battleground with its tentacles.

its only Finnegan who may not be able to solo these three but can do major damage.