Tobirama Senju (2nd hokage) vs Kisame

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lowlaville

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@lowlaville: Again you ignore all the Raikage's statements and I assume you will continue to because they disprove everything you're saying. And you don't know Bee if you think he was stomped by Kisame. Go back and read and you'll see he was vulnerable because he was protecting the old man and animals.

You literally only have as evidence bee drawing a sword once to FTG when he knew about the technique (which Kisame wouldn't) and had full knowledge of how it worked. Also if Bee is so fast how do you explain him never landing anything on Obito or Madara or even coming as close as Tobi did. You are just hating on the 2nd too hard and not giving him the respect he deserves.

Explain those once you get over thinking I'm hating on Tobirama please. lol And how does landing anything on Obito and Madara suffices? Tobi never touched Madara. "Minato and Tobirama had to tag team to tag Obito" "because of the Gudou Dama". Obito had no trouble otherwise reacting to FTG. Not that it mattered.

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roronuffy

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@lowlaville: 4th time you've ignored the Raikage. That speaks for itself.

Bee was apart of that tag team and yet he never got as close as the FTG did. In fact even before Obito got SOSP upgrade Bee couldn't touch him. Minato put a seal on him with FTG and Tobi put bomb paper on him. You're right though Bee is a lot faster and was probably just holding back. Kisame is stomped Bee as you said though, so Obito should thank his lucky he wasn't there or Kisame killed him. That's why Kisame was head of the akatski and all.

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lowlaville

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@lowlaville: 4th time you've ignored the Raikage. That speaks for itself.

Bee was apart of that tag team and yet he never got as close as the FTG did. In fact even before Obito got SOSP upgrade Bee couldn't touch him. Minato put a seal on him with FTG and Tobi put bomb paper on him. You're right though Bee is a lot faster and was probably just holding back. Kisame is stomped Bee as you said though, so Obito should thank his lucky he wasn't there or Kisame killed him. That's why Kisame was head of the akatski and all.

Again, explain yourself. If you think I'm ignoring some kind of factual evidence, show or just detail what it is I'm ignoring and what relevance it has with your argument. This is getting tiresome.

Secondly, in the pre obito Jinchurikki fight, Bee had the duty of supporting as Gai, Naruto and Kakashi attacked.

Minato's Hiraishin seal was put up when Obito was a chuunin, back when he was alive. Tobirama put that paper bomb Jutsu before Obito could properly control the Juubi, back when he was a simple blob...or something. I still don't see a point in this. After harnessing control of his powers, the two of Minato and Tobirama's combination FTG with Naruto and Sasuke alone could even scratch him.

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roronuffy

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@lowlaville: 5th time. I know you can read and I know you read the Raikage saying he's the fastest man alive and Minato is faster than him. I know you also read him saying Naruto was only the second to dodge his punch after Minato. He never said Bee was faster or Bee also dodged my punch.

"Before Obito could properly control the Juubi"? Are you serious?? What are you saying that his eyes no longer worked or that he didn't at least have his base speed? So his reactions were faster than Bee before the Juubi but somehow got slower with it?? "When he was a blob or something" Now who is going off panel? Go back and read 638 and 639 he was not tagged as a blob.

You're arguments are a joke. I have proved you wrong but you ignore it. You are just a Tobirama hater.

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lowlaville

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@lowlaville: 5th time. I know you can read and I know you read the Raikage saying he's the fastest man alive and Minato is faster than him. I know you also read him saying Naruto was only the second to dodge his punch after Minato. He never said Bee was faster or Bee also dodged my punch.

"Before Obito could properly control the Juubi"? Are you serious?? What are you saying that his eyes no longer worked or that he didn't at least have his base speed? So his reactions were faster than Bee before the Juubi but somehow got slower with it?? "When he was a blob or something" Now who is going off panel? Go back and read 638 and 639 he was not tagged as a blob.

You're arguments are a joke. I have proved you wrong but you ignore it. You are just a Tobirama hater.

- That claim is debunked by Bee reacting to FTG, where Raikage did not. This is fact. So, what is there for me to ignore? or address? lol

- I don't know what you mean, but you can go and read up on when Tobirama uses the exploding bomb. Obito is in a state of a blob due to the pressure of being the new Jinchurikki.

- When did you do it?

Anyway, this is my last post. You are starting to go down with insulting. Let's just calm down, and I don't hate Tobirama. lol

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roronuffy

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#56  Edited By roronuffy

@lowlaville: Here is Obito after being a blob at the beginning of chapter 638 with zero tags.

No Caption Provided

Here is the end of that chapter where Tobirama places the tags.

No Caption Provided

Here is the beginning of chapter 639 where we first see the tags

No Caption Provided

You are wrong and that's a fact.

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lowlaville

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@roronuffy: How am I wrong again? Obito does not attain full control at your cited chapter. He achieves it much later at 640. Your point is irrelevent. You see Obito did not have Gudou Dama or the FTG tagging feat until he attains full control. Therefore, it would be irrelevent of you to show any instance before this as "tagging" Obito, because before 640 and attaining full control, he did not have the consciousness or control over the powers fully.

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marvelfan1992

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tobirama is on an entirely different level that kisame, he's the one that killed Izuan who was roughly on par with madara. if anyone is going to say kisame is madara level then quit reading naruto coz that is just plain ignorant. Not saying it will be easy but no way will tobirama lose to kisame, he will take a majority if not all

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deactivated-5e385ee5c8c54

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tobirama is on an entirely different level that kisame, he's the one that killed Izuan who was roughly on par with madara. if anyone is going to say kisame is madara level then quit reading naruto coz that is just plain ignorant. Not saying it will be easy but no way will tobirama lose to kisame, he will take a majority if not all

lol well the fight was not really shown much but yeah tobirama did kill izuna

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Noone301994

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Abyssdarkfire

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even Tobirama can not beat Kisame in a water environment case in point being Kisame goes under water tobirama has no answer except for flying thunder god which might not even kill seeing as more than just uchihas have reacted to it.

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UFT

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#62  Edited By UFT

yeah tobirama did kill izuna

the time period's shit medical advancement killed izuna. make no mistake of that.

, he's the one that killed Izuan who was roughly on par with madara.

NO HE WASNT. izuna is featless and has literally done nothing except die easily. didnt even raise a susano ribcage to stop tobiramas slash so how the flying fuck is he equal to mads. nothing supports this. its all rumors and legend said by only one person who lived many decades after izuna's time period. hashiramas flashback directly contradicts it

There's a reason he was called the greatest water user in a day when ninja were stronger without getting SSOP power ups. E

yeah there is a good reason why. it never happened. no one said that about him. ever.

Tobirama blitzes. He was faster than Hashirama and Madara back in the day, and killed Madara's brother who was Madara's rival and training partner. Kisame doesn't have a chance.

no he wasnt, izuna was irrelevant and did nothing. no proof at all he rivaled madara. in fact izuna shit his pants at the thought of anyone being above his older brother

Tobi was also considered the fastest shinobi of his day and proved it in his fight with Obito when he reacts before even Minato could (who is the fastest shinobi ever) and he even blitzes Juubito twice

he blitzed nothing. he just teleported. which isnt blitzing.

tobirama was blitzed himself, by obito and blasted fully in half. this never happened to minato. minato is never the fastest ninja ever either.kaguya was

The guy also was the one coming up with all the plans against SOSP Obito and Madara

wrong. before long he was irrelevant vs obito and stayed back to support the fodders. he was out of his league and knew it. thye had to stand back and let naru/sasuke do it

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Jedisupermaster

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@roronuffy said:

@martinceld: That first Hiruzen battle wasn't even at half strength and he still produced a ton of water. There's a reason he was called the greatest water user in a day when ninja were stronger without getting SSOP power ups. Even Suiton only he probably still wins.

Wrong. If you want a contextual reference to how much water they both can burf up, a 30% clone of Kisame vs Gai, Lee, Neji and Tenten produced enough water to fill an entire valley up to its height, over a 150 meters in height by estimation. Tell me.... where did the edo tensei tobirama produce this much water in his first showing? lol Tobirama only spewed enough water to fill the roof of the building inside the barrier that was set up. Kisame is not impressed.

Now Tobirama might've been the greatest in his day, but as it stands, Kisame is currently the greatest Suiton user running about. Gai only managed to beat Kisame because he did not have Samehada at the time.

Samehada wont do anything against Daytime Tiger. Guy is superior to Kisame, Samehada or not.

And about this thread? Tobirama has better speed feats. He'd win.

@lowlaville: If the Raikage is faster than Bee and even Bee couldn't get around him when the Raikage was trying to keep them from heading to the war then how do to get that Bee>Minato when the Raikage said Minato is faster than him?? You're saying he can react to the FTG when niether Madara not Obito could??

There's really no point in debating anymore because you clearly really disrespect the 2nd and love you some Kisame if you're putting him this high. I mean shoot by the way you talk he is so fast and strong he should be able to take Hashirama as well.

Prime Obito is faster than Minato, who was able to beat young, unexperienced, out of his prime Obito. Madara is also faster than Minato. Minato's speed is overrated.

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Lionhardt

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#64  Edited By Lionhardt

Tobirama.

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AbramDaAwesome

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tobirama wins both rounds

he developed most of the forbidden justu, was faster then madara and hashirama, is a senju so he has large amounts of chakra, and is widely known for his suiton ability

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Hulkage

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#66  Edited By Hulkage

Samehada wont do anything against Daytime Tiger. Guy is superior to Kisame, Samehada or not.

And about this thread? Tobirama has better speed feats. He'd win.

Prime Obito is faster than Minato, who was able to beat young, unexperienced, out of his prime Obito. Madara is also faster than Minato. Minato's speed is overrated.

Only reason why Guy didn't loose against Kisame was because his attacks don't use chakra. He is like the only person in the Naruto-verse other than Rock Lee who doesn't use Chakra in his attacks, and even then it took Guy to go 6th gates against a 30% clone and 7th gates against the real thing. And that can be considered a stalemate because guy couldn't move while Kisame was still strong enough to break barracks, and call a summoning jutsu to deliver info to Tobi. And Tobirama doesn't have better speed feats at all. Kisame was reacting to a 7th gates guy.

Obito is also not faster than Minato until he becomes the 10 tails jinchuuriki. The only reason he was even able to stand to Minato is because Minato had no clue on who he was fighting and the techniques of space/time ninjutsu. Lets also not forget that he was trying to protect the village, his wife, and his child while Obito was in possession of the Nine Tails. Madara isn't faster than Minato either. Madara's speed = Hashirama's speed which is less than Minato's seeing as Minato made it to the battlefield and FTG'd a Juubi bomb to the ocean and was talking for a whole chapter before the other 3 kage showed up.

And for everyone saying that Tobirama killed Izuna, lets not forget that the almost blind Izuna only had the MS and the MS has been overcome by quite a few people. Sasuke has been thrashed when sasuke had the MS (Killer Bee, Raikage, Danzo(would have won without interference)) Jiraiya even punked Itachi when Itachi had the MS.

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Jedisupermaster

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#67  Edited By Jedisupermaster

@hulkage said:

@jedisupermaster said:

Samehada wont do anything against Daytime Tiger. Guy is superior to Kisame, Samehada or not.

And about this thread? Tobirama has better speed feats. He'd win.

Prime Obito is faster than Minato, who was able to beat young, unexperienced, out of his prime Obito. Madara is also faster than Minato. Minato's speed is overrated.

Only reason why Guy didn't loose against Kisame was because his attacks don't use chakra. He is like the only person in the Naruto-verse other than Rock Lee who doesn't use Chakra in his attacks, and even then it took Guy to go 6th gates against a 30% clone and 7th gates against the real thing. And that can be considered a stalemate because guy couldn't move while Kisame was still strong enough to break barracks, and call a summoning jutsu to deliver info to Tobi. And Tobirama doesn't have better speed feats at all. Kisame was reacting to a 7th gates guy.

Obito is also not faster than Minato until he becomes the 10 tails jinchuuriki. The only reason he was even able to stand to Minato is because Minato had no clue on who he was fighting and the techniques of space/time ninjutsu. Lets also not forget that he was trying to protect the village, his wife, and his child while Obito was in possession of the Nine Tails. Madara isn't faster than Minato either. Madara's speed = Hashirama's speed which is less than Minato's seeing as Minato made it to the battlefield and FTG'd a Juubi bomb to the ocean and was talking for a whole chapter before the other 3 kage showed up.

And for everyone saying that Tobirama killed Izuna, lets not forget that the almost blind Izuna only had the MS and the MS has been overcome by quite a few people. Sasuke has been thrashed when sasuke had the MS (Killer Bee, Raikage, Danzo(would have won without interference)) Jiraiya even punked Itachi when Itachi had the MS.

1. Kisame didnt react and was one-shoted by 7 Gates Guy. And Guy could attack him after Daytime Tiger. Guy is superior to Kisame. Period.

2. He was trying. That is why he was fighting at his fullest. And do not forget it was a young, unexperienced Obito.

Minato came to battlefield before others because it was a part of the plan, since his Hiraishin was faster than Tobiramas. And he FTG'd already stopped TBB because of Bee.

And even if Minato truly came there faster than the others - it is a travel speed feat, not a combat speed feat.

Madara effortlessly dodged Gaaras sand. His sand saved prime V2 Armor Raikage from Sasuke and easily blocked Amaterasu. Also, his clone forced Raikage to block its punch. And Edo Madara fought equaly with weakened Edo Hashirama.

Now i want you to show me Minatos combat speed feats that are at least at the same level as feats mentioned above.

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Hulkage

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#68  Edited By Hulkage

@hulkage said:

@jedisupermaster said:

Samehada wont do anything against Daytime Tiger. Guy is superior to Kisame, Samehada or not.

And about this thread? Tobirama has better speed feats. He'd win.

Prime Obito is faster than Minato, who was able to beat young, unexperienced, out of his prime Obito. Madara is also faster than Minato. Minato's speed is overrated.

Only reason why Guy didn't loose against Kisame was because his attacks don't use chakra. He is like the only person in the Naruto-verse other than Rock Lee who doesn't use Chakra in his attacks, and even then it took Guy to go 6th gates against a 30% clone and 7th gates against the real thing. And that can be considered a stalemate because guy couldn't move while Kisame was still strong enough to break barracks, and call a summoning jutsu to deliver info to Tobi. And Tobirama doesn't have better speed feats at all. Kisame was reacting to a 7th gates guy.

Obito is also not faster than Minato until he becomes the 10 tails jinchuuriki. The only reason he was even able to stand to Minato is because Minato had no clue on who he was fighting and the techniques of space/time ninjutsu. Lets also not forget that he was trying to protect the village, his wife, and his child while Obito was in possession of the Nine Tails. Madara isn't faster than Minato either. Madara's speed = Hashirama's speed which is less than Minato's seeing as Minato made it to the battlefield and FTG'd a Juubi bomb to the ocean and was talking for a whole chapter before the other 3 kage showed up.

And for everyone saying that Tobirama killed Izuna, lets not forget that the almost blind Izuna only had the MS and the MS has been overcome by quite a few people. Sasuke has been thrashed when sasuke had the MS (Killer Bee, Raikage, Danzo(would have won without interference)) Jiraiya even punked Itachi when Itachi had the MS.

1. Kisame didnt react and was one-shoted by 7 Gates Guy. And Guy could attack him after Daytime Tiger. Guy is superior to Kisame. Period.

No he fought and was reacting to guy.

2. He was trying. That is why he was fighting at his fullest. And do not forget it was a young, unexperienced Obito.

He wasn't fighting at his fullest because he was trying to protect people and end it quickly (which he did). Obito couldn't react to him at all.

Minato came to battlefield before others because it was a part of the plan, since his Hiraishin was faster than Tobiramas. And he FTG'd already stopped TBB because of Bee.

The Juubi bomb never stopped it just slowed down. And there was no plan, he just flat out made it there before him.

And even if Minato truly came there faster than the others - it is a travel speed feat, not a combat speed feat.

Madara effortlessly dodged Gaaras sand. His sand saved prime V2 Armor Raikage from Sasuke and easily blocked Amaterasu. Also, his clone forced Raikage to block its punch. And Edo Madara fought equaly with weakened Edo Hashirama.

Now i want you to show me Minatos combat speed feats that are at least at the same level as feats mentioned above.

No Caption Provided

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Jedisupermaster

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#69  Edited By Jedisupermaster

@hulkage said:

@jedisupermaster said:

@hulkage said:

@jedisupermaster said:

Samehada wont do anything against Daytime Tiger. Guy is superior to Kisame, Samehada or not.

And about this thread? Tobirama has better speed feats. He'd win.

Prime Obito is faster than Minato, who was able to beat young, unexperienced, out of his prime Obito. Madara is also faster than Minato. Minato's speed is overrated.

Only reason why Guy didn't loose against Kisame was because his attacks don't use chakra. He is like the only person in the Naruto-verse other than Rock Lee who doesn't use Chakra in his attacks, and even then it took Guy to go 6th gates against a 30% clone and 7th gates against the real thing. And that can be considered a stalemate because guy couldn't move while Kisame was still strong enough to break barracks, and call a summoning jutsu to deliver info to Tobi. And Tobirama doesn't have better speed feats at all. Kisame was reacting to a 7th gates guy.

Obito is also not faster than Minato until he becomes the 10 tails jinchuuriki. The only reason he was even able to stand to Minato is because Minato had no clue on who he was fighting and the techniques of space/time ninjutsu. Lets also not forget that he was trying to protect the village, his wife, and his child while Obito was in possession of the Nine Tails. Madara isn't faster than Minato either. Madara's speed = Hashirama's speed which is less than Minato's seeing as Minato made it to the battlefield and FTG'd a Juubi bomb to the ocean and was talking for a whole chapter before the other 3 kage showed up.

And for everyone saying that Tobirama killed Izuna, lets not forget that the almost blind Izuna only had the MS and the MS has been overcome by quite a few people. Sasuke has been thrashed when sasuke had the MS (Killer Bee, Raikage, Danzo(would have won without interference)) Jiraiya even punked Itachi when Itachi had the MS.

1. Kisame didnt react and was one-shoted by 7 Gates Guy. And Guy could attack him after Daytime Tiger. Guy is superior to Kisame. Period.

No he fought and was reacting to guy.

2. He was trying. That is why he was fighting at his fullest. And do not forget it was a young, unexperienced Obito.

He wasn't fighting at his fullest because he was trying to protect people and end it quickly (which he did). Obito couldn't react to him at all.

Minato came to battlefield before others because it was a part of the plan, since his Hiraishin was faster than Tobiramas. And he FTG'd already stopped TBB because of Bee.

The Juubi bomb never stopped it just slowed down. And there was no plan, he just flat out made it there before him.

And even if Minato truly came there faster than the others - it is a travel speed feat, not a combat speed feat.

Madara effortlessly dodged Gaaras sand. His sand saved prime V2 Armor Raikage from Sasuke and easily blocked Amaterasu. Also, his clone forced Raikage to block its punch. And Edo Madara fought equaly with weakened Edo Hashirama.

Now i want you to show me Minatos combat speed feats that are at least at the same level as feats mentioned above.

No Caption Provided

1. I remember him geting in 7 Gates and one-shoting Kisame. Thats what he did.

2. Thats why he was fighting to his fullest. Because he wanted to end that fight as quickly as possible.

3. Bee slowed it down drastically. Thats why that feat is not very impressive.

4. So what? Tobirama did the same thing in his fight with Madara. And? Is it realy that great combat speed feat? And against Obito? When he was young, unexperienced and, overall, clearly not in his prime?

Madara dodged Gaara's sand. The same sand that easily reacted to prime V2 Armor Raikage and blocked Amaterasu. And he dodged it, effortlessly. Like he can do it on daily basis. That combat speed feat is more impressive than anything Minato has shown so far.

And another feat that is more impressive than anything Minato has shown in combat speed department. Madara's clone. A CLONE. Created Susanoo that was so fast it forced Raikage to block its punch. Why Raikage didnt dodge it? Why another clone easily grabbed him and put him in a genjutsu? Because Raikage was not fast enough.

And Hashirama, while being greatly weakened because of his Edo state and clones all around the battlefield, fought that Madara equaly. They were equal and Hashirama managed to immobilise him. All that puts both Hashirama and Madara in a combat speed level above that of Minato.

I also highly doubt that Minato could beat prime Raikage with his V2 Lightning Armor, or prime Obito.

And about this thread? Tobirama is a great Water Style user himself. He is much more experienced. And, as Naruto already exposed, teleportation of any kind can be useful against Kisame. Tobirama wins.

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lowlaville

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@jedisupermaster: Look at it like this.

Minato was stated to be faster than the Raikage. It was never said that his FTG is faster than Raikage, which it is in any case. Minato being fast enough to react to use FTG against the Raikage is the only relevant proof in this debate. Bee being able to offset this speed is no small feat. Kisame defeated this Bee in his prime. All the fact you need, seriously.

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Jedisupermaster

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@jedisupermaster: Look at it like this.

Minato was stated to be faster than the Raikage. It was never said that his FTG is faster than Raikage, which it is in any case. Minato being fast enough to react to use FTG against the Raikage is the only relevant proof in this debate. Bee being able to offset this speed is no small feat. Kisame defeated this Bee in his prime. All the fact you need, seriously.

Where it was stated Minato is faster than prime Raikage with his V2 Armor?

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lowlaville

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@lowlaville said:

@jedisupermaster: Look at it like this.

Minato was stated to be faster than the Raikage. It was never said that his FTG is faster than Raikage, which it is in any case. Minato being fast enough to react to use FTG against the Raikage is the only relevant proof in this debate. Bee being able to offset this speed is no small feat. Kisame defeated this Bee in his prime. All the fact you need, seriously.

Where it was stated Minato is faster than prime Raikage with his V2 Armor?

Raikage says it himself. He was #1 speedster until Minato came along. And generally, nowhere will you find it was FTG which surpassed Raikage's speed. It was base Minato.

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Jedisupermaster

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#73  Edited By Jedisupermaster

@lowlaville said:

@jedisupermaster said:

@lowlaville said:

@jedisupermaster: Look at it like this.

Minato was stated to be faster than the Raikage. It was never said that his FTG is faster than Raikage, which it is in any case. Minato being fast enough to react to use FTG against the Raikage is the only relevant proof in this debate. Bee being able to offset this speed is no small feat. Kisame defeated this Bee in his prime. All the fact you need, seriously.

Where it was stated Minato is faster than prime Raikage with his V2 Armor?

Raikage says it himself. He was #1 speedster until Minato came along. And generally, nowhere will you find it was FTG which surpassed Raikage's speed. It was base Minato.

He says that he is the fastest shinobi, since Minato died. But that doesnt mean he admits Minato would be faster if he was alive up until that moment. Maybe he thought Minato will be a good speed rival. But we cant know it thats realy true, plus, characters statements cant always be taken as a legitimate proof. Feats wise, Minato is not all that impressive.

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lowlaville

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@lowlaville said:

@jedisupermaster said:

@lowlaville said:

@jedisupermaster: Look at it like this.

Minato was stated to be faster than the Raikage. It was never said that his FTG is faster than Raikage, which it is in any case. Minato being fast enough to react to use FTG against the Raikage is the only relevant proof in this debate. Bee being able to offset this speed is no small feat. Kisame defeated this Bee in his prime. All the fact you need, seriously.

Where it was stated Minato is faster than prime Raikage with his V2 Armor?

Raikage says it himself. He was #1 speedster until Minato came along. And generally, nowhere will you find it was FTG which surpassed Raikage's speed. It was base Minato.

He says that he is the fastest shinobi, since Minato died. But that doesnt mean he admits Minato would be faster if he was alive up until that moment. Maybe he thought Minato will be a good speed rival. But we cant know it thats realy true, plus, characters statements cant always be taken as a legitimate proof. Feats wise, Minato is not all that impressive.

Featwise, Minato has proven he is faster. Period. That instance in the forest proves it. Minato could react to Raikage's full speed.

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#75  Edited By Jedisupermaster

@jedisupermaster said:

@lowlaville said:

@jedisupermaster said:

@lowlaville said:

@jedisupermaster: Look at it like this.

Minato was stated to be faster than the Raikage. It was never said that his FTG is faster than Raikage, which it is in any case. Minato being fast enough to react to use FTG against the Raikage is the only relevant proof in this debate. Bee being able to offset this speed is no small feat. Kisame defeated this Bee in his prime. All the fact you need, seriously.

Where it was stated Minato is faster than prime Raikage with his V2 Armor?

Raikage says it himself. He was #1 speedster until Minato came along. And generally, nowhere will you find it was FTG which surpassed Raikage's speed. It was base Minato.

He says that he is the fastest shinobi, since Minato died. But that doesnt mean he admits Minato would be faster if he was alive up until that moment. Maybe he thought Minato will be a good speed rival. But we cant know it thats realy true, plus, characters statements cant always be taken as a legitimate proof. Feats wise, Minato is not all that impressive.

Featwise, Minato has proven he is faster. Period. That instance in the forest proves it. Minato could react to Raikage's full speed.

Yeah, when Raikage wasnt in his prime and when he didnt have his V2 Lightning Armor with chakra level comparable to that of Tailed Beasts.

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@lowlaville said:

@jedisupermaster said:

@lowlaville said:

@jedisupermaster said:

@lowlaville said:

@jedisupermaster: Look at it like this.

Minato was stated to be faster than the Raikage. It was never said that his FTG is faster than Raikage, which it is in any case. Minato being fast enough to react to use FTG against the Raikage is the only relevant proof in this debate. Bee being able to offset this speed is no small feat. Kisame defeated this Bee in his prime. All the fact you need, seriously.

Where it was stated Minato is faster than prime Raikage with his V2 Armor?

Raikage says it himself. He was #1 speedster until Minato came along. And generally, nowhere will you find it was FTG which surpassed Raikage's speed. It was base Minato.

He says that he is the fastest shinobi, since Minato died. But that doesnt mean he admits Minato would be faster if he was alive up until that moment. Maybe he thought Minato will be a good speed rival. But we cant know it thats realy true, plus, characters statements cant always be taken as a legitimate proof. Feats wise, Minato is not all that impressive.

Featwise, Minato has proven he is faster. Period. That instance in the forest proves it. Minato could react to Raikage's full speed.

Yeah, when Raikage wasnt in his prime and when he didnt have his V2 Lightning Armor with chakra level comparable to that of Tailed Beasts.

How did you arrive at this conclusion?

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@jedisupermaster said:

@lowlaville said:

@jedisupermaster said:

@lowlaville said:

@jedisupermaster said:

@lowlaville said:

@jedisupermaster: Look at it like this.

Minato was stated to be faster than the Raikage. It was never said that his FTG is faster than Raikage, which it is in any case. Minato being fast enough to react to use FTG against the Raikage is the only relevant proof in this debate. Bee being able to offset this speed is no small feat. Kisame defeated this Bee in his prime. All the fact you need, seriously.

Where it was stated Minato is faster than prime Raikage with his V2 Armor?

Raikage says it himself. He was #1 speedster until Minato came along. And generally, nowhere will you find it was FTG which surpassed Raikage's speed. It was base Minato.

He says that he is the fastest shinobi, since Minato died. But that doesnt mean he admits Minato would be faster if he was alive up until that moment. Maybe he thought Minato will be a good speed rival. But we cant know it thats realy true, plus, characters statements cant always be taken as a legitimate proof. Feats wise, Minato is not all that impressive.

Featwise, Minato has proven he is faster. Period. That instance in the forest proves it. Minato could react to Raikage's full speed.

Yeah, when Raikage wasnt in his prime and when he didnt have his V2 Lightning Armor with chakra level comparable to that of Tailed Beasts.

How did you arrive at this conclusion?

Because his hair, although being partly covered by his headband, wasnt up even a little bit, like it was during Raikage's fight with Sasuke.

Do you have proof he could use V2 Armor at that time and used it against Minato?

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@lowlaville said:

@jedisupermaster said:

@lowlaville said:

@jedisupermaster said:

@lowlaville said:

@jedisupermaster said:

@lowlaville said:

@jedisupermaster: Look at it like this.

Minato was stated to be faster than the Raikage. It was never said that his FTG is faster than Raikage, which it is in any case. Minato being fast enough to react to use FTG against the Raikage is the only relevant proof in this debate. Bee being able to offset this speed is no small feat. Kisame defeated this Bee in his prime. All the fact you need, seriously.

Where it was stated Minato is faster than prime Raikage with his V2 Armor?

Raikage says it himself. He was #1 speedster until Minato came along. And generally, nowhere will you find it was FTG which surpassed Raikage's speed. It was base Minato.

He says that he is the fastest shinobi, since Minato died. But that doesnt mean he admits Minato would be faster if he was alive up until that moment. Maybe he thought Minato will be a good speed rival. But we cant know it thats realy true, plus, characters statements cant always be taken as a legitimate proof. Feats wise, Minato is not all that impressive.

Featwise, Minato has proven he is faster. Period. That instance in the forest proves it. Minato could react to Raikage's full speed.

Yeah, when Raikage wasnt in his prime and when he didnt have his V2 Lightning Armor with chakra level comparable to that of Tailed Beasts.

How did you arrive at this conclusion?

Because his hair, although being partly covered by his headband, wasnt up even a little bit, like it was during Raikage's fight with Sasuke.

Do you have proof he could use V2 Armor at that time and used it against Minato?

And what of chakra level thing you spoke of? lol. So, you are saying Raikage was not using his V2 state of Lightning Release Armor but you are not giving me anything. Okay, hair did not stand up. What exactly does that mean? No V2? And how does that relate to anything I have said?

- I will need to take you back to what you said. You said he was not using V2 (prove it!), with incomparable chakra levels (prove this!)

I did not say Raikage was using V2, or he could for that matter. You brought it up. Its your bag-of-chips to prove. Because unless you do, Raikage was using V2. Simple as that.

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#79  Edited By Jedisupermaster

@lowlaville said:

@jedisupermaster said:

@lowlaville said:

@jedisupermaster said:

@lowlaville said:

@jedisupermaster said:

@lowlaville said:

@jedisupermaster said:

@lowlaville said:

@jedisupermaster: Look at it like this.

Minato was stated to be faster than the Raikage. It was never said that his FTG is faster than Raikage, which it is in any case. Minato being fast enough to react to use FTG against the Raikage is the only relevant proof in this debate. Bee being able to offset this speed is no small feat. Kisame defeated this Bee in his prime. All the fact you need, seriously.

Where it was stated Minato is faster than prime Raikage with his V2 Armor?

Raikage says it himself. He was #1 speedster until Minato came along. And generally, nowhere will you find it was FTG which surpassed Raikage's speed. It was base Minato.

He says that he is the fastest shinobi, since Minato died. But that doesnt mean he admits Minato would be faster if he was alive up until that moment. Maybe he thought Minato will be a good speed rival. But we cant know it thats realy true, plus, characters statements cant always be taken as a legitimate proof. Feats wise, Minato is not all that impressive.

Featwise, Minato has proven he is faster. Period. That instance in the forest proves it. Minato could react to Raikage's full speed.

Yeah, when Raikage wasnt in his prime and when he didnt have his V2 Lightning Armor with chakra level comparable to that of Tailed Beasts.

How did you arrive at this conclusion?

Because his hair, although being partly covered by his headband, wasnt up even a little bit, like it was during Raikage's fight with Sasuke.

Do you have proof he could use V2 Armor at that time and used it against Minato?

And what of chakra level thing you spoke of? lol. So, you are saying Raikage was not using his V2 state of Lightning Release Armor but you are not giving me anything. Okay, hair did not stand up. What exactly does that mean? No V2? And how does that relate to anything I have said?

- I will need to take you back to what you said. You said he was not using V2 (prove it!), with incomparable chakra levels (prove this!)

I did not say Raikage was using V2, or he could for that matter. You brought it up. Its your bag-of-chips to prove. Because unless you do, Raikage was using V2. Simple as that.

His hair wasnt up and there was no statement his chakra was on a TB level when he fought Minato. But when he fought Sasuke we clearly see his hair is up and we see Karin's statement that his chakra was a TB level at that moment.

There is completely no proof to suggest Raikage had the same chakra and Lightning Armor when he fought Minato. That is why it is safe to say he couldnt use it. Because there is no proof he could.

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@jedisupermaster: Only reason Kisame went down is because he tried 2to tank the tiger. He still reacted fast enough to get off his own attack that met the tiger half way. Bee barely slowed it down at all. And how is it not impressive to travel two countries and teleport a bomb hundreds of miles away? Yeah it is seeing as he did it when it was right behind Obito. Normal humans can throw knives over 100mph and naruto shinobi are superhuman. He had to wait until the right moment to go to it timing it perfectly so yes it is a better combat feat.And seeing as Naruto dodge Raikage and two chapters earlier was said to be nowhere near the level of his father. Kisame floods the area, then blitzs, and KO's him with physical superiority.

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@hulkage: Yeah, Kisame could react to the move just fine. His only mistake was that he did not have Samehada and he mistook it for chakra. Because otherwise Samehada could just restore stamina and any physical injuries, and even chakra. But even if it did not give chakra, Kisame is enough of a monster with chakra relative to tailed beasts.

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Probably Tobirama.

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@hulkage said:

1. I remember him geting in 7 Gates and one-shoting Kisame. Thats what he did.

2. Thats why he was fighting to his fullest. Because he wanted to end that fight as quickly as possible.

3. Bee slowed it down drastically. Thats why that feat is not very impressive.

4. So what? Tobirama did the same thing in his fight with Madara. And? Is it realy that great combat speed feat? And against Obito? When he was young, unexperienced and, overall, clearly not in his prime?

Madara dodged Gaara's sand. The same sand that easily reacted to prime V2 Armor Raikage and blocked Amaterasu. And he dodged it, effortlessly. Like he can do it on daily basis. That combat speed feat is more impressive than anything Minato has shown so far.

And another feat that is more impressive than anything Minato has shown in combat speed department. Madara's clone. A CLONE. Created Susanoo that was so fast it forced Raikage to block its punch. Why Raikage didnt dodge it? Why another clone easily grabbed him and put him in a genjutsu? Because Raikage was not fast enough.

And Hashirama, while being greatly weakened because of his Edo state and clones all around the battlefield, fought that Madara equaly. They were equal and Hashirama managed to immobilise him. All that puts both Hashirama and Madara in a combat speed level above that of Minato.

I also highly doubt that Minato could beat prime Raikage with his V2 Lightning Armor, or prime Obito.

And about this thread? Tobirama is a great Water Style user himself. He is much more experienced. And, as Naruto already exposed, teleportation of any kind can be useful against Kisame. Tobirama wins.

No, you're wrong.

1. I've never seen this if you can find it that would be gladly appreciated.

2. No. Minato and Obito's fight only lasted so long because he didn't find a counter for his intangibility at the beginning. Their is no way Obito is faster than Minato nor is it even close at this point, prime or not. A FTG is not what makes him fast, it's his base speed and reaction time.

4. Obito had the skill to defeat him, he just got smacked simple as that and did you just say that Raikage could beat Minato? 3rd raikage has by far better feats and he still lost to a sage clone.

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@hulkage said:

@jedisupermaster: Only reason Kisame went down is because he tried 2to tank the tiger. He still reacted fast enough to get off his own attack that met the tiger half way. Bee barely slowed it down at all. And how is it not impressive to travel two countries and teleport a bomb hundreds of miles away? Yeah it is seeing as he did it when it was right behind Obito. Normal humans can throw knives over 100mph and naruto shinobi are superhuman. He had to wait until the right moment to go to it timing it perfectly so yes it is a better combat feat.And seeing as Naruto dodge Raikage and two chapters earlier was said to be nowhere near the level of his father. Kisame floods the area, then blitzs, and KO's him with physical superiority.

Bee slowed it down drastically.

And you have to prove Kisame can dodge Hirudora. What we can see is one shot - and Kisame is down.

He probably had a mark there. So thats not an impressive combat speed feat. Its a travel speed.

His speed in 4 World Shinobi War isnt better than that of Tobirama at all. And Juubito easily reacted to him. Thats why he lost his arm.

Was said to be nowhere near his fathers level? Wanna see a scan. Also, Naruto dodged him due to his travel speed. In terms of combat speed, he is not as good as Raikage, who easily beat him there.

Tobirama is faster, has much more experience, and can give Kisame lots of trouble since he already showed his vulterability to fast movement (see what Naruto did to him).

P. S. Hashirama and Madara are still faster in terms of combat speed. And i already explained why.

@jedisupermaster said:

@hulkage said:

1. I remember him geting in 7 Gates and one-shoting Kisame. Thats what he did.

2. Thats why he was fighting to his fullest. Because he wanted to end that fight as quickly as possible.

3. Bee slowed it down drastically. Thats why that feat is not very impressive.

4. So what? Tobirama did the same thing in his fight with Madara. And? Is it realy that great combat speed feat? And against Obito? When he was young, unexperienced and, overall, clearly not in his prime?

Madara dodged Gaara's sand. The same sand that easily reacted to prime V2 Armor Raikage and blocked Amaterasu. And he dodged it, effortlessly. Like he can do it on daily basis. That combat speed feat is more impressive than anything Minato has shown so far.

And another feat that is more impressive than anything Minato has shown in combat speed department. Madara's clone. A CLONE. Created Susanoo that was so fast it forced Raikage to block its punch. Why Raikage didnt dodge it? Why another clone easily grabbed him and put him in a genjutsu? Because Raikage was not fast enough.

And Hashirama, while being greatly weakened because of his Edo state and clones all around the battlefield, fought that Madara equaly. They were equal and Hashirama managed to immobilise him. All that puts both Hashirama and Madara in a combat speed level above that of Minato.

I also highly doubt that Minato could beat prime Raikage with his V2 Lightning Armor, or prime Obito.

And about this thread? Tobirama is a great Water Style user himself. He is much more experienced. And, as Naruto already exposed, teleportation of any kind can be useful against Kisame. Tobirama wins.

No, you're wrong.

1. I've never seen this if you can find it that would be gladly appreciated.

2. No. Minato and Obito's fight only lasted so long because he didn't find a counter for his intangibility at the beginning. Their is no way Obito is faster than Minato nor is it even close at this point, prime or not. A FTG is not what makes him fast, it's his base speed and reaction time.

4. Obito had the skill to defeat him, he just got smacked simple as that and did you just say that Raikage could beat Minato? 3rd raikage has by far better feats and he still lost to a sage clone.

1. Google it. Guy entered 7 gate and one-shoted Kisame with Hirudora.

2. Minato has no feats to suggest he can beat prime Obito. beating young Obito and young raikage are his only combat speed feats. And they are not realy impressive.

3. Third Raikage has no speed feats other than dodging Rasenshuriken and was defeated by SM Naruto.

4. It is highly debatable if prime Fourth Raikage can beat Minato. Ei didnt have V2 Lightning Armor and shakra level, comparable to that of tailed beats when he fought Minato.

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A1l_S2a3m4E5N

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@Jedisupermaster:

Minato didnt use FTG LEVEL 2 when he beat raikage. And he already teleported kyubis bijuu dama moving at full speed so why is juubi dama any different.

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#88  Edited By Jedisupermaster

@a1l_s2a3m4e5n said:

@Jedisupermaster:

Minato didnt use FTG LEVEL 2 when he beat raikage. And he already teleported kyubis bijuu dama moving at full speed so why is juubi dama any different.

Teleporting Kyuubi's Biju Dama has nothing to do with his speed. It was just his Guiding Thunder technique. As for Juubi Biju Dama, it was teleported after Killer Bee drastically slowed it down.

Yeah, he didnt. But, since Raikage wasnt in his full power when he fought Minato, it is highly debatable if Minato can beat prime Raikage.

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A1l_S2a3m4E5N

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@Jedisupermaster:

Its also a fact minato didnt use FTG LEVEL 2 when they fought.

FTG LEVEL 1>AYS LV1 ARMOUR

FTG LV2 should be superior to ays lv 2 armour seeing as ftg 1 casually blitzed ays lv1.

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@a1l_s2a3m4e5n said:

@Jedisupermaster:

Minato didnt use FTG LEVEL 2 when he beat raikage. And he already teleported kyubis bijuu dama moving at full speed so why is juubi dama any different.

Teleporting Kyuubi's Biju Dama has nothing to do with his speed. It was just his Guding Thunder technique. As for Juubi Biju Dama, it was teleported after Killer Bee drastically slowed it down.

Yeah, he didnt. But, since Raikage wasnt in his full power when he fought Minato, it is highly debatable if Minato can beat prime Raikage.

Highly debatable how? The Raikage himself said "One I thought who would never be surpassed" that alone should hint to you that the Raikage knows he can't beat him. Minato also has sage mode, so whats stopping this from happening again.

Loading Video...

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#91  Edited By Jedisupermaster

@a1l_s2a3m4e5n said:

@Jedisupermaster:

Its also a fact minato didnt use FTG LEVEL 2 when they fought.

FTG LEVEL 1>AYS LV1 ARMOUR

FTG LV2 should be superior to ays lv 2 armour seeing as ftg 1 casually blitzed ays lv1.

We dont know if its realy superior. That logic doesnt work since V2 Lightning Armor superiority can be above superiority of FTG level 2 to FTG level 1.

I also forgot to add that Ei didnt have Body Flicker technique when he fought Minato.

@cosmic_lantern said:

@jedisupermaster said:

@a1l_s2a3m4e5n said:

@Jedisupermaster:

Minato didnt use FTG LEVEL 2 when he beat raikage. And he already teleported kyubis bijuu dama moving at full speed so why is juubi dama any different.

Teleporting Kyuubi's Biju Dama has nothing to do with his speed. It was just his Guding Thunder technique. As for Juubi Biju Dama, it was teleported after Killer Bee drastically slowed it down.

Yeah, he didnt. But, since Raikage wasnt in his full power when he fought Minato, it is highly debatable if Minato can beat prime Raikage.

Highly debatable how? The Raikage himself said "One I thought who would never be surpassed" that alone should hint to you that the Raikage knows he can't beat him. Minato also has sage mode, so whats stopping this from happening again.

Loading Video...

What his line must mean? Maybe he thought at his young time that he will never be surpassed. He sayd he thought. Allright?

Minato doesnt use it very often in a fight. And again, we dont know how fast he will be compare to prime Raikage with his SM.

He lacks feats.

And Third Raikage, as i mentioned, has no speed feats to put him in Fourth Raikage's level.

Tobirama marked Juubito and taged him with explosion tags at the moment Obito made a contact with him. BM Minato just got himself kicked easily by Juubito and did nothing other than losing his arm in the process. Although his FTG technique is faster than that of Tobirama, Tobirama himself is faster than BM Minato.

Tobirama beats Kisame.

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@jedisupermaster: IIRC none of the kages were quick enough to deal with Juubito which is why they got blasted to smithereens over and over again. Juubito is faster than everyone in the series who didn't have sage of six paths powers. Prime Obito (who didn't have juubi) was being tagged by Kakashi. Naruto was stayed to not be near his fathers level and he still dodged Raikage. But this fight isn't about Minato is is about Tobirama. Tobirama also has instantaneous movement but doesn't have the speed or reaction time to keep up with Minato. He even states that Minato perfected the technique like a rasengan vs rasenshuriken. Bee, who can keep up with A easily, was getting blitzd by Kisame. Kisame also kept up with seventh gates guy, six gates guy was calcd to be around mach 35-45 by Jashro44, Kisame was fighting seventh. The ONLY reason Kisame lost was because Guy doesn't use chakra in his attacks, had it been almost any other ninja they would have died. And then there is durability, he took a freaking daytime tiger head on and could still cast jutsu and break out of barracks. And he is also one of the physically strongest characters, able to displace the water whole lake by hitting Guy into it from like fifty feet above. Tobirama isn't breaking water prison and won't be able to do squat once he submerges the whole area in water.

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@Jedisupermaster:

Body flicker technique? <_<?

Minato can do that dude.

Watch the episode in which kakashi got sharingan.

Kakashi and sasuke could do that before the war started does that mean pre forth great ninja war, they were faster than minato.

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#94  Edited By Jedisupermaster

@hulkage said:

@jedisupermaster: IIRC none of the kages were quick enough to deal with Juubito which is why they got blasted to smithereens over and over again. Juubito is faster than everyone in the series who didn't have sage of six paths powers. Prime Obito (who didn't have juubi) was being tagged by Kakashi. Naruto was stayed to not be near his fathers level and he still dodged Raikage. But this fight isn't about Minato is is about Tobirama. Tobirama also has instantaneous movement but doesn't have the speed or reaction time to keep up with Minato. He even states that Minato perfected the technique like a rasengan vs rasenshuriken. Bee, who can keep up with A easily, was getting blitzd by Kisame. Kisame also kept up with seventh gates guy, six gates guy was calcd to be around mach 35-45 by Jashro44, Kisame was fighting seventh. The ONLY reason Kisame lost was because Guy doesn't use chakra in his attacks, had it been almost any other ninja they would have died. And then there is durability, he took a freaking daytime tiger head on and could still cast jutsu and break out of barracks. And he is also one of the physically strongest characters, able to displace the water whole lake by hitting Guy into it from like fifty feet above. Tobirama isn't breaking water prison and won't be able to do squat once he submerges the whole area in water.

1. Kisame never kept up with 7 Gates Guy. He got one-shoted. Dont know why are you continue to write about that. And i still wanna see a proof Kisame could dodge it, since in 7 Gates, Guy is faster than SM Edo Minato.

2. Tobirama has reaction and speed to keep up with Minato, even if its BM Minato. Tobirama put a FTG mark on Juubito and taged him with explosives, while BM Minato did nothing and got himself defeated easily. He also lost his arm. That is their difference in speed. Tobirama stated only about Minato's Hiraishin technique. He never stated anything about speed.

3. Easily? A manhandled him and KCM Naruto in that confrontation.

4. Tobirama is a proficient Water Style user, who can break it. He also can teleport himself. And he is faster than Kisame.

Tobirama wins. He has anything to counter Kisame. And if he tags him with FTG mark, Kisame is done.

Well, Obito let Kakashi to pierce him to break Madara's seal. he was able to fight Kakashi, Guy and BM Naruto at the same time in a normal condition, when he wanted to fight.

Not in his fathers level? I still wait for scan to prove that.

@Jedisupermaster:

Body flicker technique? <_<?

Minato can do that dude.

Watch the episode in which kakashi got sharingan.

Kakashi and sasuke could do that before the war started does that mean pre forth great ninja war, they were faster than minato.

You didnt understood me. Young Raikage that fought Minato didnt have V2 Lightning Armor, Body Flicker technique and chakra level comparable to tailed beast chakra level. So it is debatable if Minato could beat prime Raikage.

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A1l_S2a3m4E5N

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@Jedisupermaster:

7th gate gai isnt as fast as minato dude. kishimotos guide book debunks that ridi2ulous statement as minato over took 8th gai (before night moth) during the charge towards madara in order to save gai from incoming gudoudama.

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Jedisupermaster

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@Jedisupermaster:

7th gate gai isnt as fast as minato dude. kishimotos guide book debunks that ridi2ulous statement as minato over took 8th gai (before night moth) during the charge towards madara in order to save gai from incoming gudoudama.

Do you have a scan from that databook? Do you have speed feats of those gudoudamas? And how can you comment the fact that SM Minato was blitzed and 7 Gates Guy did way better against Juubidara?

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Hulkage

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@hulkage said:

@jedisupermaster: IIRC none of the kages were quick enough to deal with Juubito which is why they got blasted to smithereens over and over again. Juubito is faster than everyone in the series who didn't have sage of six paths powers. Prime Obito (who didn't have juubi) was being tagged by Kakashi. Naruto was stayed to not be near his fathers level and he still dodged Raikage. But this fight isn't about Minato is is about Tobirama. Tobirama also has instantaneous movement but doesn't have the speed or reaction time to keep up with Minato. He even states that Minato perfected the technique like a rasengan vs rasenshuriken. Bee, who can keep up with A easily, was getting blitzd by Kisame. Kisame also kept up with seventh gates guy, six gates guy was calcd to be around mach 35-45 by Jashro44, Kisame was fighting seventh. The ONLY reason Kisame lost was because Guy doesn't use chakra in his attacks, had it been almost any other ninja they would have died. And then there is durability, he took a freaking daytime tiger head on and could still cast jutsu and break out of barracks. And he is also one of the physically strongest characters, able to displace the water whole lake by hitting Guy into it from like fifty feet above. Tobirama isn't breaking water prison and won't be able to do squat once he submerges the whole area in water.

1. Kisame never kept up with 7 Gates Guy. He got one-shoted. Dont know why are you continue to write about that. And i still wanna see a proof Kisame could dodge it, since in 7 Gates, Guy is faster than SM Edo Minato.

Easily reacts to his attack and his attack met Guy's half way. Since you say that Guy is faster than Minato is Kisame as well seeing as they are about equal in speed here?

2. Tobirama has reaction and speed to keep up with Minato, even if its BM Minato. Tobirama put a FTG mark on Juubito and taged him with explosives, while BM Minato did nothing and got himself defeated easily. He also lost his arm. That is their difference in speed. Tobirama stated only about Minato's Hiraishin technique. He never stated anything about speed.

You are obviously confused seeing as Tobirama got blasted apart just as much as minato did. Obito snuck up on Minato, that is why he lost an arm versus when Tobirama and Madara were straight up attacking him.

3. Easily? A manhandled him and KCM Naruto in that confrontation.

Keeps up with Raikage's speed and out muscles him, keep in mind that Bee was blitz'd by Kisame and Bee is just as fast as Raikage. This should already be common knowledge seeing as Bee blitz'd Sasuke who was keeping up with A as well.

4. Tobirama is a proficient Water Style user, who can break it. He also can teleport himself. And he is faster than Kisame.

Funny seeing as it's never been broken on the inside so your assumptions are baseless.

Tobirama wins. He has anything to counter Kisame. And if he tags him with FTG mark, Kisame is done.

He has to tag him first. And he wont when the area is submerged in water and he himself is in water as well.

Well, Obito let Kakashi to pierce him to break Madara's seal. he was able to fight Kakashi, Guy and BM Naruto at the same time in a normal condition, when he wanted to fight.

Along with 7 other tailed beast so don't act like he solo'd him. And in the Kamui dimension, Kakashi kept up with Obito just fine.

Not in his fathers level? I still wait for scan to prove that.

You make this wayyy too easy. And after this hit he proceeded to fight seventh gate guy. Now answer how will Tobirama break water prison, water bubble, or even survive underwater without getting blitz'd. And that's not even considering the Kisame could just drain him. I took the time to counter your arguments, so please come correct next time.

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Jedisupermaster

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@hulkage said:

@jedisupermaster said:

@hulkage said:

@jedisupermaster: IIRC none of the kages were quick enough to deal with Juubito which is why they got blasted to smithereens over and over again. Juubito is faster than everyone in the series who didn't have sage of six paths powers. Prime Obito (who didn't have juubi) was being tagged by Kakashi. Naruto was stayed to not be near his fathers level and he still dodged Raikage. But this fight isn't about Minato is is about Tobirama. Tobirama also has instantaneous movement but doesn't have the speed or reaction time to keep up with Minato. He even states that Minato perfected the technique like a rasengan vs rasenshuriken. Bee, who can keep up with A easily, was getting blitzd by Kisame. Kisame also kept up with seventh gates guy, six gates guy was calcd to be around mach 35-45 by Jashro44, Kisame was fighting seventh. The ONLY reason Kisame lost was because Guy doesn't use chakra in his attacks, had it been almost any other ninja they would have died. And then there is durability, he took a freaking daytime tiger head on and could still cast jutsu and break out of barracks. And he is also one of the physically strongest characters, able to displace the water whole lake by hitting Guy into it from like fifty feet above. Tobirama isn't breaking water prison and won't be able to do squat once he submerges the whole area in water.

1. Kisame never kept up with 7 Gates Guy. He got one-shoted. Dont know why are you continue to write about that. And i still wanna see a proof Kisame could dodge it, since in 7 Gates, Guy is faster than SM Edo Minato.

Easily reacts to his attack and his attack met Guy's half way. Since you say that Guy is faster than Minato is Kisame as well seeing as they are about equal in speed here?

2. Tobirama has reaction and speed to keep up with Minato, even if its BM Minato. Tobirama put a FTG mark on Juubito and taged him with explosives, while BM Minato did nothing and got himself defeated easily. He also lost his arm. That is their difference in speed. Tobirama stated only about Minato's Hiraishin technique. He never stated anything about speed.

You are obviously confused seeing as Tobirama got blasted apart just as much as minato did. Obito snuck up on Minato, that is why he lost an arm versus when Tobirama and Madara were straight up attacking him.

3. Easily? A manhandled him and KCM Naruto in that confrontation.

Keeps up with Raikage's speed and out muscles him, keep in mind that Bee was blitz'd by Kisame and Bee is just as fast as Raikage. This should already be common knowledge seeing as Bee blitz'd Sasuke who was keeping up with A as well.

4. Tobirama is a proficient Water Style user, who can break it. He also can teleport himself. And he is faster than Kisame.

Funny seeing as it's never been broken on the inside so your assumptions are baseless.

Tobirama wins. He has anything to counter Kisame. And if he tags him with FTG mark, Kisame is done.

He has to tag him first. And he wont when the area is submerged in water and he himself is in water as well.

Well, Obito let Kakashi to pierce him to break Madara's seal. he was able to fight Kakashi, Guy and BM Naruto at the same time in a normal condition, when he wanted to fight.

Along with 7 other tailed beast so don't act like he solo'd him. And in the Kamui dimension, Kakashi kept up with Obito just fine.

Not in his fathers level? I still wait for scan to prove that.

You make this wayyy too easy. And after this hit he proceeded to fight seventh gate guy. Now answer how will Tobirama break water prison, water bubble, or even survive underwater without getting blitz'd. And that's not even considering the Kisame could just drain him. I took the time to counter your arguments, so please come correct next time.

1. They are not equal. And Kisame was able to prepare his shark attack due to a distance between them. By the way, he did it while Guy was preparing his Daytime Tiger, gaining chakra and making a hand seal. Still wanna know how Kisame can dodge that attack when he is not as fats as Guy. Guy's travel speed isnt all that impressive. But his combat speed is above Kisame. And, just as i sayd, Guy one-shoted him.

2. Minato lost an arm because he isnt as fast as Juubito. And my point is that Tobirama was so fast he managed to put a FTG seal on Juubito and put several explosive seals on him. While Bijuu Mode Minato (!) did absolutely nothing, was easily beaten and lost his arm. Tobirama is faster than BM Minato.

3. It is obvious Ei didnt try to dodge Lariat. He wanted to "see, which Lariat is stronger". And he saw that. But the bad thing about it is that his lariat was weaker than that of Bee.

4. Tobirama is faster. I dont think Kisame will be able to put him there. And, because of his speed, he can tag Kisame. He can teleport himself from that water volume. And he is a proficient water style user himself.

5. Obito was able to fight with them without a help from Tailed Beasts.

6. First of all, Yamato's words cant be taken as a legitimate proof. Did he saw Minato fighting? But anyway, even if he wasnt at that moment, he still got himself beaten by Raikage. He dodged Raikage's punch due to travel speed. Raikage was manhandling him most of that fight due to superior combat speed.

Tobirama still beats Kisame.

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A1l_S2a3m4E5N

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@jedisupermaster:

Dude u're incorrigible

(lowballing minato seems to be something you like doing.) you never relent no matter how many ppl debate u, you stick to ur biased claims.

1st. what does combat speed mean to you?

2nd. what is travel speed to you?

Seeing as minato uses ftg for both offense and defence.

The flash dodges bullets, is that travel or combat speed? Cuz (like minato) he fights at said speed.

Gai's 7th gate was completely useless against madara, it didnt do shit. Madara didnt take him as much of a threat and said, "unless u use red mist (8th gate) you seriously underestimating me"

And yes until gai attained top speed using night moth minatos ftg was faster than he could run. Minato teleported in front of gai (who was charging at top speed as minato instructed him to.) to teleport gudoudama madara fired at him (gai).

DUDE PLS DONT START.

Minato didnt use the following against Ay:

FTG Level 2

Sage mode

& at that time didnt have BM.

kuchiyose (sage elders or bunta).

Rasengan.

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I got Lord 2nd, he was initially the fastest shinobi alive, he was very intelligent and his water style was amazing.