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#51 Posted by beatboks1 (7249 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman said:

Celestials. Not every Time Lord is the Doctor.

In fact the Doctor and the Master are the only Time Lords with feats. The race of Time Lords only feat is loosing to the Darleks and being utterly destroyed. Considering one of their race defeated this race hundreds of times I wouldn't put much fail in the race as a whole.

For one thing the Doctor ( can't recall if it was the 3rd or 4th) was punished for his intervention in time ( the actual Time Lords being more like Watchers) and his punishment was being trapped for a period in so far as he could only travel the time line of Earth.

Also their most powerful attack is something they would never use. Opening the eye of a Tardis was only ever attenpted by the Master and The Doctor was hell bent on stopping him from doing so. The Doctor is the most out there off the cuff member of the TL's and if he wouldn't do it you can bet none of the others would.

#52 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (17773 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: what do you mean heriarchy?

Time Lrdsa re still subserviant to folks like the guardians

and I don't see how Whoniverse time is any tougher tha Marvel time (it actually seems a lot weakker to me)

Hierarchy as in how high someone is placed in power order. As in, take a specific force, life, for example. In some fiction verse, it is treated as an absolute force, like no magic, however strong, however weak, will EVER truly get people back to life. But in some fictions, anyone good level being can do so. That is, different writers place different value to a particular force of nature. As Doctor who is nearly all about time, I'd say they place time at a very high level, compared to marvel, who is more about.. a lot of things, magic, detection, action, and stuff.

Saying 'time is stronger/weaker/tougher' doesn't really make sense, it's about where does the writer put it relative to other beings Imo.

#53 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio
#54 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (17773 posts) - - Show Bio

@betatesthighlander1: Note that I'm doing this only for logic's sake, It's entirely upto you whether or not you want to discard it as conjecture.

In whoverse, time is very high in the power level, so very few beings can do anything to it. Time lords, though, nearly ended it, now this doesn't seem an impressive feat because marvel verse puts time well below many high level beings, same as death. In some fiction, even characters directly second to God have no power over death, but in some, they regularly come back to life (dbz). So beating death in fiction type 1 is much more impressive than that in fiction type 2. Note that this doesn't apply to absolute things such as planets and galaxies, but abstracts concepts such as time, death, life, etc. (Before you say, oh, so planet busting in a weak fiction is more impressive than galaxy busting in dbz.. nope.)

An example that could make things clear is myth thor. Myth thor practically wrestled Death/old age and was only brought down on his knees. This death was far higher compared to marvel death, as it affected everything, even Gods, opposed to marvel death who is unable to affect a whole lot of things.

#55 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1:

I'm pretty sure marvel Death applies to everything (she stopped galactus in one alternate future and laid waste to the many-angled ones)

anyways, could you show me evidence or give me examples of how Time in the WHoniverse would be harder to break than Time in Marvel?

#56 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (7035 posts) - - Show Bio

Odin with thousands years of prep couldn't do it....I don't think the Time Lords would either.

#57 Edited by The_Imperator (1930 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: what do you mean heriarchy?

Time Lrdsa re still subserviant to folks like the guardians

and I don't see how Whoniverse time is any tougher tha Marvel time (it actually seems a lot weakker to me)

And the Guardians are above universe busting. Each one (out of the six there are) is as far above the universe destroying Chronovores as a human is to an insect.

Yeah, Marvel is a comic universe, on average it is going to have higher powerlevels. However, the Whoverse does have universe busters, nigh-omnipotent granting devices, and other comic-esque things.

@too_raw: that was probably the most wnaky thing that has ever happenned in any media ever, any of those ships would (rationally) just shoot him right then and there

Beyond the fact that they were trolling him in that episode, they were trying to catch him alive as not all of those ships were from species that hated the Doctor, some of those species were good allies with him.

@the_imperator said:

Just saw this, decided I had to weigh in.

First off, an individual TL fighting an individual Celestial is not going to happen. TLs don't fight one on one, they have their TARDISes and other stuff on Gallifrey to fight with. They can time loop whole planets with a button push, erase people from time, etc., all from Gallifrey. Which sits behind a nigh-impregnable shield. So it's not like a bunch of human-esque beings are all going to float out into space and float over to the Celestials :P

Uru is supposedly indestructible, but celestials reduced it to slag easily enough

What is the Celestials strongest feat? The shield was able to withstand everything the Time War Daleks could throw at it without coming down, and these guys had a source of literal infinite energy (yes, not infinite power, but :P ). The barrier is not a normal shield, it is simply up or down. It separates everything within it to a different flow of time and different universe, separate from whatever is outside of it.

@cliffrice: yeah, but that toook the entire Dalek empire working pretty hard top do that, and they had to workinside the universe to blow it up

Yeah, they were also Daleks that started out as one guy and one broken Dalek, of course it took them a while. AS to working inside the universe, where else would they go? A Void ship? Which has the downside of not interacting with anything.

#58 Edited by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_imperator:

well, Odin is at least a galaxy buster (and capable of damaging the multiverse if you beleive Doctor Strange) adn Arishem (who is certainly weaker than CTOAA, probably weaker than Exitar, probably weaker than Tiamut) was able to no-show an all-out attack from odin and two of his peers (Vishnu and Zeus)

and they were able to enter and exit Asgard and other extradimenional realms pretty easily, no matter what the masters of said realms tried

by the interacting wit the universe thing, I'm saaying that daleks couldn't just plant reality bombs inside of all the celestials

#59 Edited by The_Imperator (1930 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman said:

Celestials. Not every Time Lord is the Doctor.

In fact the Doctor and the Master are the only Time Lords with feats. The race of Time Lords only feat is loosing to the Darleks and being utterly destroyed. Considering one of their race defeated this race hundreds of times I wouldn't put much fail in the race as a whole.

For one thing the Doctor ( can't recall if it was the 3rd or 4th) was punished for his intervention in time ( the actual Time Lords being more like Watchers) and his punishment was being trapped for a period in so far as he could only travel the time line of Earth.

Also their most powerful attack is something they would never use. Opening the eye of a Tardis was only ever attenpted by the Master and The Doctor was hell bent on stopping him from doing so. The Doctor is the most out there off the cuff member of the TL's and if he wouldn't do it you can bet none of the others would.

(I will respond in order to your statements)

No, that is not their only feat. They time looped an AI, that shits over most AIs in fiction including Culture Minds, in the span of a Chrono as a test of their tech back when Rassilon first built it. In the show, the time looped planets, redirected transmat beings across time and space, moved planets through time and space, had a gun that could erase targets from time, and almost destroyed the multiverse. In the EU, they have weapons that can destroy universes, weapons that shoot pure time energy (can kill universe destroying creatures), weapons that can burn away entire chunks of time lines, the ability to shut sections of the universe off from time (referenced in the unaired episode Shada), other ridiculous tech. And it is Daleks, not Darleks.

Yes, he was punished. Because the Time Lords are quite literally the bureaucrats that do the paperwork to keep time going smoothly. The Doctor was mucking up their work, and they were unhappy.

That is not their most powerful attack. Their most powerful attack turns them into godlike beings that can completely ignore physics and the like.

@princearagorn1:

I'm pretty sure marvel Death applies to everything (she stopped galactus in one alternate future and laid waste to the many-angled ones)

anyways, could you show me evidence or give me examples of how Time in the WHoniverse would be harder to break than Time in Marvel?

Time is a "map," if you will, that the Time Lords slapped into place over the universe. It is kept in place by the infinite energy and other shenanigans of the Eye of Harmony. Small time changes are ok, as long as the map doesn't shift. Shifting the Map requires time travel to a specific point, but even then it is hard to change it, as literally the flow of time is engineered so that certain things happen. Small changes, and even some larger ones, eventually retroactively fix themselves and go back to how they were before. If not, Time Lords step in, push a button, and fix it. Just help that explains how time works in the Whoniverse.

@the_imperator:

well, Odin is at least a galaxy buster (and capable of damaging the multiverse if you beleive Doctor Strange) adn Arishem (who is certainly weaker than CTOAA, probably weaker than Exitar, probably weaker than Tiamut) was able to no-show an all-out attack from odin and two of his peers (Vishnu and Zeus)

and they were able to enter and exit Asgard and other extradimenional realms pretty easily, no matter what the masters of said realms tried

by the interacting wit the universe thing, I'm saaying that daleks couldn't just plant reality bombs inside of all the celestials

The Barrier literally is a wall between everything outside and the stuff inside. It has resisted attacks that destroy physics across an volume bigger than the Milky Way, and still held relatively firm. And that was only because the Time Lords hadn't updated the power regulators in while. After that, they kind of had to.

#60 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_imperator:

wasn't Omega able to fudge-up Galifrey with his stuff?

anyways, I think the Time-Lords are still outclassed by the entirety of the celestials

#61 Posted by The_Imperator (1930 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_imperator:

wasn't Omega able to fudge-up Galifrey with his stuff?

anyways, I think the Time-Lords are still outclassed by the entirety of the celestials

Omega was stated to be draining all energy in the universe, and the Time Lords couldn't keep it from destroying everything for long. That itself is a ridiculous feat.

#62 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_imperator: iI could see the Celestials doing something like that if it really came down to it

#63 Posted by The_Imperator (1930 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_imperator: iI could see the Celestials doing something like that if it really came down to it

Whether they can or can't, I was just answering some questions on the Whoniverse and others' arguments.

#64 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_imperator: oh, sorry

I still think the celestials could take this

do you ahve an opinion on that?

#65 Posted by Sideslash (5907 posts) - - Show Bio

Celestials.

#66 Edited by The_Imperator (1930 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_imperator: oh, sorry

I still think the celestials could take this

do you ahve an opinion on that?

I don't read enough comics to call it one way or the other. Though, Time Lords can universe bust, and can teleport stuff from one end of the universe to another and through time. Plus the ability to time loop stuff and put stuff in pocket dimensions mean they could theoretically lock all the Celestials in the span of a chronon (smallest increment of time) and put them all in a pocket dimension and launch it at the nearest Swimmer.

#67 Edited by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_imperator: you don't read comics or don't read serioes that include the Celestials?

anyways, I'm not entirely sure how much the Celestials are effected by chronal weapons, but they seem pretty difficult to capture

#68 Edited by The_Imperator (1930 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_imperator: you don't read comics or don't read serioes that include the Celestials?

anyways, I'm not entirely sure how much the Celestials are effected by chronal weapons, but they seem pretty difficult to capture

I tend to just buy TPBs, and mainly DC TPBs at that, though I also go for Star Trek and some older Marvel ones. I don't follow Thor so I haven't had a chance to read much Celestial stuff.

Has anyone ever tried to time loop them into the smallest span of time that can exist? Or even tried time looping them?

#69 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_imperator:

I'm not aware of any time people use that kinda tuff n the Celestials

anyways, the Celestials were also in the Eternals, Infinity Gauntlet, and soem other stuff

#70 Posted by The_Imperator (1930 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_imperator:

I'm not aware of any time people use that kinda tuff n the Celestials

anyways, the Celestials were also in the Eternals, Infinity Gauntlet, and soem other stuff

I have the IG TPB, and the Celestials were the single most underwhelming thing in the entire story. Sure, Odin was punked, but it was played well. The Celestials were all hyped up for an issue, and then merely threw planets at Thanos. Compared to most of the others in the group of cosmics, they shouldn't have been there.

#71 Edited by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_imperator: yeah, the throwing planets thing did seem pretty low for their power levels

i geuss it's kinda like ho bullest are really small but really effective projectiles?

#72 Posted by TheIrishDoctor (459 posts) - - Show Bio

The thing that make the Celestials so dangerous, besides their phenomenal attacking power, is the fact that they are nearly indestructible, on a level that few things, even in the Marvel world, are. But tell me how an indestructible body protects you from a gun that doesn't destroy you, it pulls you out of time? How do they get out of being time locked? And even without that, The Time Lord tech is SO MUCH more advanced than some of you are giving them credit for. They have a tool that can make a star go supernova, and them eternally lock it into hat supernova state so that the energy never stops coming out at Supernova levels. This item? It's the size of a casket. I know that a supernova is pretty much nothing to a Celestial, but I'm not talking about a weapon. I'm talking about the electric company. It's just a power source.

And finally. The Daleks created the reality bomb. Which was literally so powerful that the shock waves would pierce through every single universe, every parallel universe and pocket universe, and destroy everything. So there would be absolutely nothing left. Not even perceivable leftover matter. I'm pretty sure this thing would destroy the Celestials. And guess what? The Time Lords were technologically superior to the Daleks. They were stale-mating in the Great Time War because the Daleks are much more vicious and much more used to war, given that their only objective is to wipe out all life in existence that is not Dalek. I know that the Celestials are incredible. But outside of high end reality warpers, the Time Lords take most people in the Marvel and DC universes. And again, if the Doctor is included, it's pretty much one-sided.

#73 Edited by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@theirishdoctor: technological superiority dodes not neceserrilly mean that they have a bteer version of every thing the Daleks had

I'm also not sure how easy it's gonna be to remove a celestial from time , especially considering they don't exist in a cenventional sense, occuppy multiple spaces at once (I'm basing this offof Thor's experience inside Exitar's mind)

#74 Edited by X_insignia1 (1394 posts) - - Show Bio

Celestials. It's gonna take more than a few chrono abilities to destroy them. The fact that the mad Celestials were capable of tanking an alternate IG, as well as reed's entropy gun, speaks volumes.And to add they were on the verge of conquering the multiverse.

#75 Posted by izbighulk (640 posts) - - Show Bio

Time lords win this yeah Celestials are probably strong at first but the time lords will endure long enough to figure out how to defeat them. Now it's obvious it won't end good for the time lords either i presume maybe just 10 of them survive.

#76 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

Under a handfull of Celestials were beating the tar out of someone that creates universes under their bed sheets. I don't care how many time-lords you throw at the Celestials, their entire race is going to smoke them.

#77 Edited by izbighulk (640 posts) - - Show Bio

Time lords just travel in time when celestials were just evolving and destroy them

#78 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio
#79 Posted by X_insignia1 (1394 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke: to what specif event are you referring?

The Mad Clestials story arc, where they battled Adult Franklin Richards and Galactus.

wouldn't really call it " beating the tar" our of Frank though, child Franklin came out with some decent showings against them.

#80 Posted by cliffrice (1015 posts) - - Show Bio

Im not all that much a fan of PIS but the doctor does have Plot immunity in spades. The fight will likely go like this.

Timelord # 37: Doctor giant space god housing a pocket universe is coming to destroy the time lords.

The Doctor: Timey Whime wibity bobity stuff.

Celestials: Argh! Someone reverted the polarity of our internal cosmoblablaital matrix. *poof*

#81 Edited by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@izbighulk said:

Time lords just travel in time when celestials were just evolving and destroy them

Seeing how the Celestials were present(in the same state as they are now) at the very dawn of time , I am not sure what that's going to achieve .

Not to mention that most Dr Who fans are completely ignoring the Celestials' own ability to manipulate time in favor of what a bunch of Watcher-esque beings could do to some of the most powerful entities ever written in Marvel .

#82 Edited by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_imperator: Sealing them off in a pocket dimension is about as useful as taunting a bull in a bull fight . The Dreaming Celestial , while imprisoned and weakened , completely overtook the Heroes Reborn Universe , from the mainstream 616-reality . Hell , the dead Knowhere Celestial's decapitated head acts as an access point across all spacetime . As far as putting them in time-locks goes , completely inconsequential when one considers their own vast time manipulation capabilities , along with the fact that they were present at the very birth of time , thereby showing us that they're not even within the bounds of linear time to be affected like that . Simply put , seal them in a pocket dimension and they'll simply teleport back . Try to put them in a time-loop/time-lock and they simply undo it . These are tactics which characters like Superman or the Silver Surfer could counter , and we're talking about beings several tiers beyond either of them .

As far Celestials being underwhelming in the IG saga goes , you only think that because you(like so many other Dr Who fanboys on this thread) are largely ignorant of Celestials' feats outside of that Thor comic and the IG saga .

Plus , as far as the IG saga goes , one of the Celestials(I think it was Ziran) was also portrayed as standing his ground while taking the brunt of Adam Warlock's outburst even as the rest of the Abstracts were getting blown away , during the Living Tribunal's trial of Warlock(in the possession of the IG) .

Then we have the Protege storyline . Which I am again willing to bet you know nothing about .

And most recently , the Celestials were shown to have shaped the current Marvel Multiverse in a flashback sequence in an X-Men title .

@theirishdoctor said:

The thing that make the Celestials so dangerous, besides their phenomenal attacking power, is the fact that they are nearly indestructible, on a level that few things, even in the Marvel world, are. But tell me how an indestructible body protects you from a gun that doesn't destroy you, it pulls you out of time? How do they get out of being time locked? And even without that, The Time Lord tech is SO MUCH more advanced than some of you are giving them credit for. They have a tool that can make a star go supernova, and them eternally lock it into hat supernova state so that the energy never stops coming out at Supernova levels. This item? It's the size of a casket. I know that a supernova is pretty much nothing to a Celestial, but I'm not talking about a weapon. I'm talking about the electric company. It's just a power source.

And finally. The Daleks created the reality bomb. Which was literally so powerful that the shock waves would pierce through every single universe, every parallel universe and pocket universe, and destroy everything. So there would be absolutely nothing left. Not even perceivable leftover matter. I'm pretty sure this thing would destroy the Celestials. And guess what? The Time Lords were technologically superior to the Daleks. They were stale-mating in the Great Time War because the Daleks are much more vicious and much more used to war, given that their only objective is to wipe out all life in existence that is not Dalek. I know that the Celestials are incredible. But outside of high end reality warpers, the Time Lords take most people in the Marvel and DC universes. And again, if the Doctor is included, it's pretty much one-sided.

Stupid Logic . In the most recent X-Men titles being written by Bendis , a non-omega level mutant demonstrated the ability to "time-lock" as you put it . Going by your flawed line of reasoning , this sub-omega mutant that can pretty much be one-shotted by the likes of Silver Surfer , would be able to freeze the Celestials and get the victory . Hell , let's go ahead and say that Odin could conveniently overpower all the Celestials since he's convincingly demonstrated considerable time manipulation powers . All this is ignoring the fact that Celestials possess vast time manipulation powers themselves , as was proven in Neil Gaiman's Eternals run .

The Celestials tanked an Ultimate Nullifier , a device which is capable of erasing reality from existence . On 2 different occasions . You are demonstrating blatant ignorance with regards to the Celestials' vast abilities , their feats and what they're capable of accomplishing and have accomplished . It's pretty clear that you have read few , if any comics involving the characters you're arguing against , and this type of argument from ignorance just makes you look an even bigger fool . And as far as high-end reality warpers go , do you know anything about Kubik's testimony in regards to the power of an average no-name Celestial ?

#83 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (17773 posts) - - Show Bio
#84 Edited by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

^Your backseat modding is much appreciated , but certainly not needed .

#85 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (17773 posts) - - Show Bio

^Your backseat modding is much appreciated , but certainly not needed .

Appreciated is enough :)

#86 Edited by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

^Based on ?

#87 Posted by SSJLozza (1528 posts) - - Show Bio

Any Celestial can solo.

#88 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (17773 posts) - - Show Bio
#89 Posted by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

^Concession accepted .

#90 Posted by TheIrishDoctor (459 posts) - - Show Bio

@hyper_god: Are...you talking about Magik?

Her powers are a joke compared to what the Time Lords do! She doesn't "Time Lock" you, she throws you into a pocket dimension. Anyone like the Celestials could get out of that easy as heck. That's not what the Time Lords do, they don't place you into another dimension, they trap you in a perpetual time loop that exists both in a single moment and for the rest of eternity. I get that the Celestials can manipulate time themselves, but no one understands the workings of the time vortex better than the time lords, and once they were time-locked, even they could do absolutely nothing about it at all unless they had a link to the outside world.

Celestials can tank UN? They've also been shown to be damaged by things a lot weaker than the UN. Comics are inconsistent at best. And I'm not going to lie, yeah I've read not a whole lot on the celestials. Unless it's done with cleverness instead of just "BRAAAGH I'M SO POWERFUL!!!" I tend to enjoy smaller scale conflicts to ones that are on the Celestial levels. But I've read them somewhat and I understand that they are a multiversal threat.

The Doctor alone wrecks multiversal threats on a regular basis. The TIME LORDS were a multiversal threat. They dealt with cosmic and pancosmic beings as part of the job description. They are tailor made to take on beings on that scale. That's what they do.

The Time Vortex in Doctor Who isn't just time travel, it's the cosmic power of everything. A human who took in a tiny little iota of it became a reality warper. It's actually extremely similar to hyperspace from whence the celestials came. If there was a crossover, it would probably be explained to be each seperate universe's version of the same thing. The celestials are a part of it, the Time Lords control it like their plaything.

And ya know what? I don't really know who would win. I'm putting in my two cents, because I know the Time Lords extremely well, but as you say, I don't know the celestials as well as I could. But I know of them and I know most of their feats. So I'm saying that the Time Lords seem to have the advantage to me. Honestly, I wouldn't put it past the Time Lords to capture and contain someone like Mr. Mxyzptlk. It's what they do.

#91 Edited by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@theirishdoctor: Nope . Another mutant whose ability is specifically relegated to time manipulation .

Hickman's FF/F4 . Both times it was fired by a member of the Council of Reeds , and the nullification energies were clearly shown hitting the Celestial before the Nullifier backfired on the user . What other things are you talking about ? The Invisible Woman's forcefields are specifically their kryptonite , and Nathaniel Richards once implied in a discussion with her that she and she alone was capable of producing the harmonic chords necessary to penetrate Celestial armor . Reed's Universal Entropy Gun was a standalone incident . Celestials also have durability feats wherein each of the 4th Host have tanked the blasts of a Destroyer disintegration beam amped by Odin and all of Asgard(minus Thor) combined .

Wholly irrelevant . The Council of Reeds was custom made to deal with multiversal threats . It's what they did , crushing alternate reality Beyonders and Galactii just like that . Hell , a far weaker organization consisting of a young Reed Richards , a your Dr Doom , a young Ben Grimm and Nathaniel Richards defeated the Time Variance Authority , and if you know anything about the TVA , you'll realize what a phenomenal feat that is . Yet they're nothing compared to the Council of Reeds , who in turn were all killed off by a Host of Celestials from an alternate universe .

Nope . Marvel has a plethora or plot devices that lay claim to the same hyperbole that hyperspace has been attributed with . The Celestials have vast time manipulation abilities themselves , and they dwarf high-end reality warpers like Kubik and Kosmos . In fact Kubik literally stated that a single Celestial has power several orders of magnitude beyond his own , and seeing what Kubik has accomplished , that's no small compliment .

This is funny . You claim now that you're ignorant about who would win in a battle yet a page ago you were pretending that this was spite against the Celestials or something along the lines of that . I love the fact that my mere presence causes people to flip-flop like that .

#92 Edited by TheIrishDoctor (459 posts) - - Show Bio

@hyper_god: Ya know what. I don't mind having a discussion, but I really don't like the condescension. I admit readily that I don't know as much about the Celestials as you do. I also never stated that the Time Lords would walk through this easily. I said with THE DOCTOR it's a one-sided battle, and I don't care if they are powerful enough to over-power the Living Tribunal, which I doubt, either way the Doctor will figure out a way to stop them. That's what he does. He beats enemies infinitely more powerful then he is because he figures out how to do so. Sue's power is tailor made to defeat a celestial despite not being all that powerful because it's like their Kryptonite? The Doctor would figure that out, figure out how to replicate her powers perfectly, and wipe them out. If there is any conceivable weakness in a foe, The Doctor figures it out in minutes, on the fly, invariably. He functions a lot WORSE against smaller scale enemies than large scale enemies like the Celestials.

Just the Time Lords? Don't know. Honestly, like the Doctor, I see them being able to figure out a way, but maybe not before they are destroyed. The Council or Reeds is the Marvel sort of equivalent to the Time Lords, yeah, but they're a poor imitation.

But this is ALL just what I feel based on what I know. You know more about the Celestials than I do. I get that. Fine. You are better qualified than I to talk about them. But I still have faith in the Time Lords to pull through because of how much I know about THEM. I don't want to get into a shouting match with you, and I don't want to have a stupid internet bout where whomever sounds the most condescending wins. You think one way, I think another. You know more about the Celestials, maybe I know more about the Time Lords or maybe I don't.

Also, if you didn't mean Magik, then I'd like to know who you do mean, because if I understood that character, maybe I would understand where you're coming from better.

#93 Edited by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@theirishdoctor: "This is so badly one-sided that I have to laugh" . Your words , not mine .

The Council or Reeds is the Marvel sort of equivalent to the Time Lords, yeah, but they're a poor imitation.

The Council of Reeds crushed parallel universe Galactii and Beyonders . They imprisoned and lobotomized countless Dr Dooms across the multiverse . Dr Doom , whose feats when it comes to uber-godlike beings is not unlike what you're describing the the Doctor to be . If you know anything about what Doom has accomplished , you'll realize the magnitude of what the Reeds achieved .

Yet they fell like ants before the Mad Celestials .

Also, if you didn't mean Magik, then I'd like to know who you do mean, because if I understood that character, maybe I would understand where you're coming from better.

Don't take this the wrong way , but I am not going to spoon-feed you facts . If you haven't read about the characters you're arguing against , then don't take such an ardent position to begin with .

I am not going to bother addressing your other points in this post because they're merely rehashing of previous points that you've stated on this thread . I hate going into circular debates . It's not my cup of tea .

#94 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (17773 posts) - - Show Bio

@theirishdoctor:

Don't take this the wrong way , but I am not going to spoon-feed you facts . If you haven't read about the characters you're arguing against , then don't take such an ardent position to begin with .

so you're just going to say there is some super powerful character, and not say who it is? That isn't debating.

#95 Edited by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

^I don't need to be tutored on debating etiquette by you of all people , thank you very much .

#96 Posted by TheIrishDoctor (459 posts) - - Show Bio

@hyper_god: WHen I said that first line, it was assuming that the Doctor was in on this. And yes, I hold by that. Because I believe that the Doctor's ability to understand everything in the universe in an intimate way and instinct of knowing exactly how to counter universe rending beings, coupled with his time lord tech, would be able to take out the Celestials pretty easily. The Time Lords themselves are more rigid and less intuitive than the Doctor.I have no doubt that, given that he knows who he's fighting against and has as much time as he does to prep, he would figure out the few times they have been injured (such as with Sue) and figure out how to replicate that. Yeah, the Doctor's and Doom's feats are similar. Difference is, he does it all on the fly without being able to prep for more than an hour usually AND he's held back by the fact that he is such a moral entity who refuses (usually) to take a life, even from the most heinous creatures in existence. He also sometimes slips up because he overestimates the goodness of humanity. No morals Doctor with more than a day of prep who knows about the enemy he's facing? There are VERY few beings that I could see beating him. Later, I came to realize that the Time Lords are not exactly the same faction as the Doctor, since he actually fought against them, and I'm sort of reevaluating things. I still think they could pull it off, but I'm not saying it's a wash.

You don't have to spoon-feed me facts. We're not arguing over the power of this character. We're arguing the Celestials. You say that this character can time-lock people. I've never seen that in a Marvel comic (at least, not as it is depicted in Doctor Who). This is not a character, as far as I'm aware, that is directly connected to the Celestials, so why should I be expected to know them before coming into a topic about the Celestials? Now if they can be showed to have a relative bearing on this argument because their powers replicate that of the Time Lords, then as the one arguing for the Celestials it IS your prerogative to bring that to light instead of just saying "Hey, there's this character who can do this and that! I'm not going to tell you what their name is, you just have to take my word for it".

If you don't want to argue anymore, that's fine. I also dislike circular arguments. They end up feeling stupid. Although sometimes you have to give different angles on the same argument before a reasonable person (and you seem reasonable, I have argued with people who refuse to see sense under any circumstances) realizes where you're coming from. I don't think that's going to happen this time. And in retrospect, you're probably right. I shouldn't be so ardent in which sides I take unless I know everything about the characters in question. I know a decent bit about the Celestials, but I am not an expert. From what I know, and from what I know of the Time Lords (somewhat more), I believe that the Time Lords could win this. And as for the Doctor (and I AM an expert on him), I'd bet on him over the Celestials, Mr. Mxyzptlk, and possibly even the Living Tribunal. Because I know what he's accomplished BEFORE against enemies who are infinitely more powerful than he.

But I feel like this is the end of our argument. So I'll close with that.

#97 Edited by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@theirishdoctor: Dr Doom has overwhelmed the Pre-Retcon Beyonder(the most powerful character ever conceived in fiction , short of the omnipotent God Himself) in a battle of wills . Dr Doom's various counterparts(all of them his peers) were lobotomized and kept as prisoners by the Council of Reeds . Dr Doom himself was kept on a leash by Reed Richards .

Both Doom and the Council were defeated by the Mad Celestials . Doom managed to survive his encounter , but only because the Celestials had other more urgent matters to attend to , and thereby didn't make sure that he was indeed dead . As far as the Council goes , they went from being one of the most powerful and well-organized groups in the multiverse to being reduced to just one member , and having their prized headquarters reduced to a desolate graveyard once the Celestials were through with them .

Basically speaking , the Time Lords are analogous to the Council of Reeds and your precious Doctor is analogous to Victor Von Doom . Do you now realize why the victory in this battle belongs to the Celestials ?

And speaking of the Living Tribunal , a member of the race of Celestials has already overwhelmed a being possessed of the combined power of the LT along with a bunch of other Abstracts . Take that for what it's worth .

#98 Posted by Hyperlight (5910 posts) - - Show Bio

i know nothing about doctor who..except that The Doctor is a beast. However, im pretty sure they dont compare to being like celestials. What does the doctor deal with that a celestial cant deal with with a wave of his/her hand? doesnt the doctor have human problems were celestials destroy and create galaxies on a whim?

i could totally be wrong though

#99 Posted by TheIrishDoctor (459 posts) - - Show Bio

...Wait, WHAT!? No, no, no, if Doom overwhelmed pre-retcon Beyonder it was either PIS or there was some VERY crazy stuff happening. Beyonder WAS essentially God. For Doom to "overwhelm" him, the implication of that word being that he somehow forced Beyonder to expend his power past it's limits, than I don't buy ANYONE ever beating him for any reason, ever, again unless there was some insane PIS or a WHOLE lot of context that I'm missing.

And I also call BS on one Celestial, I don't care which one, beating the Living Tribunal amped with other Abstacts. Galactus when fully filled ripped one to shreds, and even Thor proved capable of damaging one's armor slightly. Galactus is powerful, but next to LT he's not much. And I get that the armor is not them, they exist in Hyperspace, they only control the armor from the outside, blah, blah, blah, but so far it is them with that armor that has done everything. I don't think we've ever seen them outside of their armor.

Sounds to me like there is a phenomenal amount of inconsistency here. Who cares if one day they are powerful enough to drop an amped LT and can shrug off an Ultimate Nulifier, if next week they have to fuse 4 into one in order to take Galactus? This is why I don't like enemies that are multiversal threats simply because they are powerful enough to be, because it is almost impossible to keep their strength consistent. It's why DBZ is such a poor series compare in battles, because one minute a character can blow up the solar system in his lowest form in an instant and the next someone 100x stronger supposedly hits the earth and it just makes a big crater. At least the Celestials are 10 trillion times stronger than that, minimum, so when they fluctuate it's more justified because from a literary standpoint it's insanely hard to keep track of power on that level.

#100 Edited by JackKnight (2969 posts) - - Show Bio