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#1 Posted by logy5000 (5524 posts) - - Show Bio

Who wins?

#2 Posted by eisjfiejss (509 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer.

#3 Edited by Sideslash (5906 posts) - - Show Bio
Lucifer's reaction to this fight.
#4 Posted by blackadamFTW (7867 posts) - - Show Bio

The only feat the Thought Robot has is defeating a guy with not too many feats either. Lucifer should win this pretty easily.

#5 Posted by XImpossibruX (5029 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucy.

#6 Edited by matmatxm8 (587 posts) - - Show Bio
#7 Posted by Sethlol (1296 posts) - - Show Bio
#8 Posted by logy5000 (5524 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sethlol said:

Ummm, okay.

#9 Edited by Killemall (16955 posts) - - Show Bio

@logy5000 said:

@Sethlol said:

Ummm, okay.

I dont understand most viners, why so much hate for someone who created a thread. Also Sethlol since you decide to mock him, would you be kind enough to show us Lucifer ever fight and beating anyone who is multiversal in power level like Cosmic Armor Superman did against Mandrakk in his own realm? And please spare us statement like Presence thinking Lucifer is more powerful than Michael.

While i think Lucifer would likely win, comments like this is unfound , specially when one cant show a clear scan to prove Lucifer is more powerful.

#10 Posted by logy5000 (5524 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: Good to see somebody who understands.

#11 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer should win.

#12 Posted by Spartan101 (2118 posts) - - Show Bio

no need to mock a legit fight on here matey,lucifer to me wins because i see his feats that bit better than s/m/t/r,but its a legit fight with these two for sure.

#13 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (14189 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@logy5000 said:

@Sethlol said:

Ummm, okay.

I dont understand most viners, why so much hate for someone who created a thread. Also Sethlol since you decide to mock him, would you be kind enough to show us Lucifer ever fight and beating anyone who is multiversal in power level like Cosmic Armor Superman did against Mandrakk in his own realm? And please spare us statement like Presence thinking Lucifer is more powerful than Michael.

While i think Lucifer would likely win, comments like this is unfound , specially when one cant show a clear scan to prove Lucifer is more powerful.

Take joke like a joke buddy, no need to heat up!

Personally, I don't think TR could take lucifer out..

#14 Posted by Deadgod (1093 posts) - - Show Bio

Thought Robot should win here , he far beyond the whole dc multiverse , he's the ultimate weapon & was made to adapt and counter any ultimate threat protect all of existence and maintain the balance

#15 Posted by justleader (1708 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer wins, Thought Robot doesn't have enough feats.

#16 Edited by Sethlol (1296 posts) - - Show Bio

@PrinceAragorn1 said:

@Killemall said:

@logy5000 said:

@Sethlol said:

Ummm, okay.

I dont understand most viners, why so much hate for someone who created a thread. Also Sethlol since you decide to mock him, would you be kind enough to show us Lucifer ever fight and beating anyone who is multiversal in power level like Cosmic Armor Superman did against Mandrakk in his own realm? And please spare us statement like Presence thinking Lucifer is more powerful than Michael.

While i think Lucifer would likely win, comments like this is unfound , specially when one cant show a clear scan to prove Lucifer is more powerful.

Take joke like a joke buddy, no need to heat up!

Personally, I don't think TR could take lucifer out..

Pretty much. Interesting how a picture thats meant to be taken like a joke garners such a reaction.

As for Lucifer, he is second to the Presence along with Michael. Need I go on?

#17 Posted by logy5000 (5524 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sethlol: "As for Lucifer, he is second to Presence." So is Spectre, who is below Anti-Monitor, who is below Mandrakk, who is below Thought Robot.

DC has so many 2nd to Presence characters that the statement should just be ignored.

#18 Posted by Sethlol (1296 posts) - - Show Bio

@logy5000 said:

@Sethlol: "As for Lucifer, he is second to Presence." So is Spectre, who is below Anti-Monitor, who is below Mandrakk, who is below Thought Robot.

DC has so many 2nd to Presence characters that the statement should just be ignored.

The Spectre is literally as strong as the Presence wants him to be. If the Presence wants the Spectre to defeat the people you just mentioned, he will.

#19 Posted by logy5000 (5524 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sethlol: Then why has he lost on so many occasions?

#20 Posted by Sethlol (1296 posts) - - Show Bio

@logy5000 said:

@Sethlol: Then why has he lost on so many occasions?

Good question. I unfortunately do not understand the inner workings and motivations of the god of DC.

#21 Posted by Killemall (16955 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sethlol said:

Pretty much. Interesting how a picture thats meant to be taken like a joke garners such a reaction.

Pictures like that, despite being used for a joke, does offend the people. I know OP himself is very humble and a good friend of mine and dont know how he felt but to me that was offensive. Not to mention it is against vine rules to post such pictures.

As for Lucifer, he is second to the Presence along with Michael. Need I go on?

And that is enough to grant him a win?

What people tend to forget is that, he was stated to be second to presence in Vertigo universe (there have been instance where Presence has acknoweledge him being superior to Michael though). That particular statement is contradicted by the fact that Prime Superman has also been said to be second most powerful being in DC continuity, which of course involves Vertigo. Add to that the fact at time, although erronously, Spectre himself has been said to be second most powerful being in the universe. So that statement for one does NOT grant him an immediate victory. Add to that the fact Presence has also acknowledged Elaine Belloc, as his apprentice, was the most powerful being in existence after Presence himself.

Not sure if you were aware, but Mr. Mxy and Batmite from alternate reality (Elseworld) during World Funniest where clearly more powerful than both Micheal and Lucifer, which further undermines the statement.

Also add to the fact that Lucifer was clearly scared of The Dark (also commonly referred to as Great Evil Beast) to a point he had to flee. The Dark no longer exists anymore, and has been included in the portion of the Presence.

Furthemore, when Lucifer was tasked with beating The Voiceless Gods (it was in their own realm), he had to manipulate an earthly lady to wish they were dead in the end, rather than fight them heads on, certainly shows he powers arent without limit, else such tactic would never have been applied in the first place.

Moreover, during The House of Windowless Room, Lucifer had to give up his powers , an in entire powers, when he wished to enter the realm of Windowless Rooms, certainly shows he has a lot more restriction on his powers than the statement, only second to presence would imply, the formal of which has absolutely no such restriction. Exact same thing happened when he entered Izanami's realm. Also did you know Izanami was able to poision Lucifer's wings, and he did heal later, with Elaine's help but does show vulnerability.

Add to that the fact Sandman was able to cut off Lucifer winds (context involved ) certainly proves even Lucifer himself can be harmed. Not to mention that very fact that Lucifer himself could have been, temporarily humbled and harmed by a character far less powerful than Presence or Michael himself for that matter certainly undermines the whole argument, Lucifer is second only to The Presence so he would win.

I could go on but in short:

1. Being stated second only to Presence by itself is a win (although Lucifer likely is a LOT more powerful than Though Robot, apart from durability he however hasnt done a lot to prove that power though)

2. Lucifer is yet to fight and beat a multiversal being on his own accord, without tricks, in a straight up fight. Yes he once stated Death had no claim over him, and her reaction as well as her failure to actually say to contradict it shows he is more powerful than Death of Endless and various other instances so on and so forth, so can you show me one instance of a clear fight, not throw away comments, not statement like Lucifer being second to presence, or Lucifer could destroy a multiverse on a whim statement to show he is more powerful than thought robot???

Lets see if you can.

#22 Posted by Sethlol (1296 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

Right, I do humbly apologize if the picture has caused anyone here any offense. It was meant to be taken as joke but if it went to far for you then I am sorry.

As to your points:

1) The Spectre is the agent of the Presence. His power is completely determined on what the Presence is giving him. Him being *generally* the second most powerful character in DC, after the Presence, is highly debatable.

2) Mxy/Bat-Mite are indeed powerful but them being more powerful than both Lucifer and/or Michael is also highly questionable.

3) The GEB at the time was said to have been the Presence's equal. Any being lower then the head honcho (Big P) would probably show some fear/caution when dealing with something that was said to be at that level.

Could you elaborate a bit more on the Voiceless Gods-Sandman bit please. I don't seem to remember the ideas around those reads at the moment.

#23 Posted by Killemall (16955 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sethlol said:

@Killemall said:

Right, I do humbly apologize if the picture has caused anyone here any offense. It was meant to be taken as joke but if it went to far for you then I am sorry.

No Problem i feel i was a bit harsh as well and for that you have my sincerest apologies.

1) The Spectre is the agent of the Presence. His power is completely determined on what the Presence is giving him. Him being *generally* the second most powerful character in DC, after the Presence, is highly debatable.

Spectre is an agent of Presence no question, but it has, to the best of my knowledge, never been stated Presence either increases or decreases his power at whim. While there have been times where Presence have put a restriction on what he can and cannot do, for example: he was not allowed to kill Darkseid because he represented the negative of the universe and was essential (in shot plot which is hard to swallow), thats not really Presence increasing or decreasing his powers though.

Furthemore, during Spectre Volume 4, Issue 02, it was revealed that Spectre has in him, a small portion of Presence’s powers himself called the Logoz, which Spectre can tap into should he need more powers. How much he can tap into has never been stated. Also there is the whole restriction Michael placed on Spectre during volume 3 (sorry can’t remember the exact issue, must ask CitizenBane he’s the spectre expert)that Spectre power can directly be controlled by his hoast. We also have an instance where Michael was easily able to prevent Spectre from tapping to Logoz completely.

That being said the whole statement about Spectre being second most powerful, along with the absolutely and utterly featless version of Superman being same, was my attempt to show the mere statement like “he is the second most powerful” isn’t always a direct win.

2) Mxy/Bat-Mite are indeed powerful but them being more powerful than both Lucifer and/or Michael is also highly questionable.

Is it?

During World Funniest, Bat-Mite and Mxy casually destroy and re-create entire Dc multiverse, including stuffs like else world and recreated them with absolutely no problem. Neither Michael nor Lucifer can do that on their own, the recreating part, both of their powers combined they can do so, Lucifer after getting Michaels power did create a multiverse, but on his own accord neither Michael nor Lucifer can. It was also stated that this, destroying and recreating multiverse, was a game for them and they would do so all over again next time.

That certainly shows, at least to me, that those two were more powerful.

3) The GEB at the time was said to have been the Presence's equal. Any being lower then the head honcho (Big P) would probably show some fear/caution when dealing with something that was said to be at that level.

I think you misunderstand my intention, i have no doubt GEB was many times more powerful than Mandraxx or Cosmic Armour Superman, but that was yet another statement to show that , Lucifer being the second most powerful being has not always been consistent.

Could you elaborate a bit more on the Voiceless Gods-Sandman bit please. I don't seem to remember the ideas around those reads at the moment.

As per Morpheus instance, it is from The Sandman: Season of Mist which most place off panel, and the whole story is in quite detail under this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sandman:_Season_of_Mists

What pretty much happened was Lucifer was basically bored with hell and wanted to go live on earth, so he decides to well go away permanently. So he wishes to have his wings removed and was planning to leave hell. Things / plot happens, and the story finally ends when we see Lucifer wingless on earth. He later stated it was Morpheus who cut off his wings. That is why i had, Morpheus was able to harm him (context involved )

#24 Posted by Saren (24300 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

That particular statement is contradicted by the fact that Prime Superman has also been said to be second most powerful being in DC continuity, which of course involves Vertigo.

When? Where has that ever been said? I've seen people claim this but I've never found a shred of on-panel proof in any comic or handbook.

Furthemore, when Lucifer was tasked with beating The Voiceless Gods (it was in their own realm), he had to manipulate an earthly lady to wish they were dead in the end, rather than fight them heads on, certainly shows he powers arent without limit, else such tactic would never have been applied in the first place.

Actually, Lucifer said that if he took action himself, there would be a certain amount of collateral damage, and he wanted to avoid that. Hence why he used Rachel.

There's no reason to believe he couldn't have handled them himself.

Moreover, during The House of Windowless Room, Lucifer had to give up his powers , an in entire powers, when he wished to enter the realm of Windowless Rooms, certainly shows he has a lot more restriction on his powers than the statement, only second to presence would imply, the formal of which has absolutely no such restriction

He wasn't at his full power when he entered the realm in the first place ---- hence why he went to retrieve his wings.

Also did you know Izanami was able to poision Lucifer's wings, and he did heal later, with Elaine's help but does show vulnerability.

She poisoned the wings when they were removed from his body and no longer part of his being.

Add to that the fact Sandman was able to cut off Lucifer winds (context involved ) certainly proves even Lucifer himself can be harmed. Not to mention that very fact that Lucifer himself could have been, temporarily humbled and harmed by a character far less powerful than Presence or Michael himself for that matter certainly undermines the whole argument, Lucifer is second only to The Presence so he would win.

Lucifer asked Dream to cut off his wings. Dr. Destiny and the Red King have used a mere portion of Dream's power to create whole universes at will, so it's not exactly a low showing. Also, in that same story, Dream himself admitted to being terrified of Lucifer and told his raven that if he and Lucifer ever fought, Lucifer would destroy him. Later on, Lucifer casually warped the entire realm of the Dreaming against Dream's will and Dream couldn't do anything about it other than get angry.

1. Being stated second only to Presence by itself is a win (although Lucifer likely is a LOT more powerful than Though Robot, apart from durability he however hasnt done a lot to prove that power though)

He's also destroyed the entire Mansions of the Silence dimension just by his mere presence:

Created a door to the void and then warped reality such that if the Presence tried to remove the door, it would unmake the rest of the multiverse:

Warped the entire DC multiverse to create doors to his multiverse in every possible realm of the DCU:

Destroyed the Logoz (Spectre's link to the Presence and source of his power) with one touch:

He has plenty of feats that display his power.

Lucifer is yet to fight and beat a multiversal being on his own accord, without tricks, in a straight up fight.

He fought and killed Michael during The Wolf Beneath The Tree.

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#25 Edited by Deadgod (1093 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane: but where does it says that he's Warping the entire DC multiverse to create doors to his multiverse in every possible realm of the DCU? The Vertigo universe is not canon to DCU , even the editors of DC have said that

#26 Posted by Saren (24300 posts) - - Show Bio

@Deadgod said:

@CitizenBane: but where does it says that he's Warping the entire DC multiverse to create doors to his multiverse in every possible realm of the DCU? The Vertigo universe is not canon to DCU , even the editors of DC have said that

Vertigo is canon to DC. Or perhaps some clarification is needed: only certain Vertigo titles, like Swamp Thing, Hellblazer, Sandman and Lucifer were canon to pre-Flashpoint DC. Lucifer frequently references events that took place in The Sandman, and Sandman is canon to DC --- Superman, Batman, Martian Manhunter, Element Girl, Scarecrow, Two-Face, Dr. Destiny and other DC characters have all made appearances there, and in books like JLA (when Dream of the Endless helps the JLA fight Starro) and JSA (when Dream Girl tells Dr. Destiny he will die in his cell, tortured by Morpheus' power) the events of Sandman are referenced in detail. Plus Lucifer has made canon appearances in DC books like The Demon and Spectre.

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#27 Posted by Killemall (16955 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane: You should make a respect thread for Lucifer, this are honestly the first time i am seeing these feats and i checked through few respect thread. Also i tried reading Lucifer solo series but stopped coz i kept getting lost and it was soooo hard for me to follow the story o_O. I think i am better suited reading Hulk/ Superman/ Thor kind of story, simple with very less thinking involved =)

Makes me cozy.

#28 Posted by Deadgod (1093 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane:

oh ok but i don't think that Vertigo Lucifer was canon to DCU or was the same devil, he made guest appearence in the Demon but there were other beings too who used that name & were not Neil Gaiman's creation , In Vertigo, Yahweh left creation behind, and his name does not bind creation anymore, nor is he part of it , it was given to Elaine. She destroyed Yahweh's concepts, like heaven and hell & yet those still exist in DCU but not in Vertigo

#29 Posted by Saren (24300 posts) - - Show Bio

@Deadgod said:

@CitizenBane:

oh ok but i don't think that Vertigo Lucifer was canon to DCU or was the same devil, he made guest appearence in the Demon but there were other beings too who used that name & were not Neil Gaiman's creation , In Vertigo, Yahweh left creation behind, and his name does not bind creation anymore, nor is he part of it , it was given to Elaine. She destroyed Yahweh's concepts, like heaven and hell & yet those still exist in DCU but not in Vertigo

The Lucifer who appeared in Spectre was very much Neil Gaiman's creation. Michael has made appearances in DC books like Day of Judgement, he's met Raven and Alan Scott and talked about Trigon. I don't see how Elaine taking over changes any part of what I said. The DCU does not use concepts like hell that way, they have various hell lords like Neron, Blaze and Satanus who govern different parts of the underworld. And I'm pretty sure Elaine recreated most of those concepts anyway.

This is from Lucifer #75.

And this is the same scene in The Sandman #23, which is undeniably canon.

They're the same story.

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#30 Posted by Deadgod (1093 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane: oh thanks for clearing it up , honestly whole Dc universes is quite messed up , confusing where does monitors , Over monitor , Presence , Michael & Lucifer all fit in it =)

#31 Posted by Sethlol (1296 posts) - - Show Bio

Good debate guys :)

#32 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer.

#33 Posted by Pokergeist (22302 posts) - - Show Bio

@logy5000: Probaly becuase said Presence (DC Writer) wanted him to loose. ;)

#34 Posted by XiiX (4758 posts) - - Show Bio

@jeanroygrant said:

Lucifer.

#35 Posted by NeonGameWave (7205 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer.

#36 Posted by JackKnight (2969 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer has way better feats then the Thought Robot.

Lucifer should beat any version of Superman.

#37 Edited by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

LM

#38 Edited by comiczmaestro (82 posts) - - Show Bio

@deadgod: Hahaha! Good one!

*just in case this isn't a joke, Lucifer is second to only the Prescence. He is a multiversal threat. If you do not agree with me, then I will tell you this: Micheal=Lucifer Micheal beat the Spectre, who is a multiversal threat. Therefore, both Micheal and Lucifer are multiversal threats. Plus, Lucifer is nigh-omnipotent and is able to create universes at will. Yes, this won't be a stomp, but Lucifer will definitely win.*

#39 Posted by Baron_von_Santa (3571 posts) - - Show Bio
#40 Edited by Baron_von_Santa (3571 posts) - - Show Bio

@comiczmaestro:

1. Michael is far more powerful than spectre, corrigan or unbound. when he fought spectre, both times he did not even bother to use the demiurgic power, and still easily beat him.

2. primal monitor, the source, Elaine Belloc are all more powerful than him. Michael has more power too.

3. lucifer creates multiverses

4. you just bumped an illegal thread

#41 Posted by TheGrayGhost (479 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer the shaper of TWO multiverses, the guy who LOLnopes multiverse destroying blasts, easily one shots the dude who was killed fighting the other dude who was killed by a couple of Gls with half charged rings

#42 Posted by Baron_von_Santa (3571 posts) - - Show Bio

@thegrayghost: um, what the heck are you talking about? lucifer has never fought anyone who has been killed by green lanterns.

#43 Posted by TheGrayGhost (479 posts) - - Show Bio

@baron_von_santa: I know. I am talking about thought robot who was killed by mandarrk, who was killed by GLs

#44 Edited by Baron_von_Santa (3571 posts) - - Show Bio

@thegrayghost: oh, okay. just to say, that was a lame feat for him. even though he was weakened, he still should have survived that at least.

#45 Posted by lol (2556 posts) - - Show Bio
#46 Edited by Primebonnick (1043 posts) - - Show Bio

well i can't add to what has already been said so yea lucifer he beats any version of superman even dc 1 million. He may find the thought robot amusing though.

#47 Edited by uchiha454 (1802 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh no thought robot is gonna be broken

#48 Posted by Simon_the_digger (2622 posts) - - Show Bio

Morningstar wins.

#49 Posted by BEYONDERGOD (504 posts) - - Show Bio

feats on this Thought Robot???

#50 Edited by AndreySemyonov1337 (207 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer