#1 Posted by Wolfus (34 posts) - - Show Bio

Hi guys. I'd like to know the outcome of these battles

1- Current Thor vs Current Scarlet Witch

2- OF Thor vs HoM Scarlet Witch

3- RKT(full OF+ knowledge+ runes magic) w/ mjolnir vs HoM Scarlet Witch

In 1, morals are on for both

In 2 and 3, morals are off, they're going all out.

Who takes this and why?

#3 Edited by Wolfus (34 posts) - - Show Bio

@saren said:

Rounds 2 and 3 aren't debatable; HoM Wanda is severely out of RKT's league.

Current round might go either way; they fought early in Remender's series, but Wanda was exhausted and depleted during that fight. She has the power, but all the durability of wet paper. One hit will end her.

Are you sure? I mean, RKT is far above skyfather level(considering that he is above TWSAIS who saw skyfathers as children). The OF already gives him great magic power. And the runes are very powerful as well. Plus, he has knowledge.

I can't see how Wanda can take all these. Sure, her magic and reality changing powers are powerful, but I don't think she can erase RKT like she did to the mutants, considering his powers. Remember how RKT easily beat mangog? What he said? His spells, and stuff. Honestly, I think is magic is very powerful as well. It is a battle that I would like to see.

#5 Posted by Wolfus (34 posts) - - Show Bio

@saren said:

@wolfus said:

@saren said:

Rounds 2 and 3 aren't debatable; HoM Wanda is severely out of RKT's league.

Current round might go either way; they fought early in Remender's series, but Wanda was exhausted and depleted during that fight. She has the power, but all the durability of wet paper. One hit will end her.

Are you sure? I mean, RKT is far above skyfather level(considering that he is above TWSAIS who saw skyfathers as children). The OF already gives him great magic power. And the runes are very powerful as well. Plus, he has knowledge.

I can't see how Wanda can take all these. Sure, her magic and reality changing powers are powerful, but I don't think she can erase RKT like she did to the mutants, considering his powers. Remember how RKT easily beat mangog? What he said? His spells, and stuff. Honestly, I think is magic is very powerful as well. It is a battle that I would like to see.

Wanda turned the omniverse inside out. Her spell's range and power were so absolute that Doctor Strange stated any attempt to remove it would destroy all of reality as a side-effect. RKT simply doesn't compare, and Mangog is a non-factor.

So, her reality warping powers. I'm sorry, I don't know a lot. Does that feat put her above, like, everyone? I mean, she changed the moniverse, but isn't there a limitation of who her powers can affect, like galactus, celestials and other beings? Didn't her power fail to affect the phoenix host?

And about stranger's statement, does it mean that her powers can do that? Because then, you got a point, I don't think RKT could do the same, not even close.

#6 Posted by dondave (34670 posts) - - Show Bio

Wanda

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#7 Posted by GhostRavage (8402 posts) - - Show Bio

@saren: Why did you changed your Username Bane? I feel the other one was a lot more creative. :(

#8 Posted by TDK_1997 (14474 posts) - - Show Bio

Wanda wins all rounds except the first one.

#9 Posted by sophia89 (3384 posts) - - Show Bio

1 round thor

2 round wanda

3 round thor if he killed her before she uses her magic.wanda would win if he didnt go for the kill imediatly.

#10 Edited by sophia89 (3384 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolfus: hom wanda would be above galactus.

in avx she was depowered and she still scared all the phosts.

#11 Posted by Wolfus (34 posts) - - Show Bio

@sophia89 said:

1 round thor

2 round wanda

3 round thor if he killed her before she uses her magic.wanda would win if he didnt go for the kill imediatly.

I see.

And about your other reply: is it a normal galactus or a hungry galactus? And is she above the celestials?

But avx was kind of... bad and with a lot of PIS, wasn't it?

#12 Edited by sophia89 (3384 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolfus: franklin richards(another reality warper) was said to be on celestial lvl,he also turned galactus into his herald.

hom wanda would be above a recently fed galactus,and can be on celestial lvl.

.

avx had a good story but alot of the fights were pis or wis.

#13 Posted by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolfus said:

So, her reality warping powers. I'm sorry, I don't know a lot. Does that feat put her above, like, everyone? I mean, she changed the moniverse, but isn't there a limitation of who her powers can affect, like galactus, celestials and other beings? Didn't her power fail to affect the phoenix host?

And about stranger's statement, does it mean that her powers can do that? Because then, you got a point, I don't think RKT could do the same, not even close.

Not necessarily but it's possible, there are several characters who affected the omniverse, and are still below the major abstracts.

Wanda was never shown to be influencing/beating an abstract, though way before House of M her children were shown to challenge Eternity himself. And that was before Infinity was even introduced in the Quasar Book a year later, meaning Eternity at the time was the embodiment of time/space not just time (although even after Infinity was introduced Eternity was sometimes depicted as the embodiment of space/time combined)

Also, Rune King thor beat a weakened Mangog, whose magic was siphoned by Loki (and Thor beat Loki in the next few following pages).

#14 Posted by sophia89 (3384 posts) - - Show Bio

@rolldestroyer: not argueing with you.

but dr doom in children crusade after taking wanda's power said this was his most powerful form and he nvr felt like this (keep in mind he absorbed galactus before)

#15 Posted by Bronze_Surfer (2966 posts) - - Show Bio

@sophia89: IIRC all he said is that it had more power than when he stole Beyonders power who was at the time an Inhuman mutant.

#16 Posted by sophia89 (3384 posts) - - Show Bio

@bronze_surfer: oh yeah.

but wasnt inhuman beyonder above cube lvl beings.

#17 Posted by Bronze_Surfer (2966 posts) - - Show Bio
#18 Edited by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

@bronze_surfer said:

@sophia89: IIRC all he said is that it had more power than when he stole Beyonders power who was at the time an Inhuman mutant.

Better yet, he said that the Beyonder's power is nothing compared to him now. Spidey with the beyonder's power recreated all reality 2 years earlier.

#19 Posted by Bronze_Surfer (2966 posts) - - Show Bio
#20 Posted by Killemall (18320 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolfus said:

So, her reality warping powers. I'm sorry, I don't know a lot. Does that feat put her above, like, everyone? I mean, she changed the moniverse, but isn't there a limitation of who her powers can affect, like galactus, celestials and other beings?

That should put her just about everyone, including Galactus, as in one of the alternate reality she destroyed we see Galactus being blown away.

If you look at the panel on the far right, on top you can see Galactus being blown away (at least his foot can be seen)

HOM Wanda is scary, dont wanna address the individual being you mention but for the thread , her feat far outshadow anything RKT has been shown or even hinted to be able to operate at.

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#21 Posted by Killemall (18320 posts) - - Show Bio

@sophia89: pretty sure he is below. ask @rolldestroyer or @killemall

Depending on which cosmic cube being you are looking at. He is certainly below both Kubik and Molecule Man.

Problem being even individually all of them should be more powerful than RKT.

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#22 Edited by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: We still shouldn't ignore that she did that through the otherworld (which is pan-dimensional)

As you know, Surtur did it recently, and alternate version of Jamie managed to control the whole omniverse thru a nexus as well.

#23 Posted by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

He is certainly below both Kubik and Molecule Man.

Why below Kubik?

#24 Posted by Killemall (18320 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: We still shouldn't ignore that she did that through the otherworld (which is pan-dimensional)

As you know, Surtur did it recently, and alternate version of Jamie managed to control the whole omniverse thru a nexus as well.

Even if we consider her power being amped by otherworld, it still took Megan to collect power of the same otherworld, as well as beyond to barely seal the chaos wave, and she still died trying to accomplish that.

I am not as well versed with Jamie, my understand thus far was he is scary powerful isnt he?

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#25 Posted by Killemall (18320 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall said:

He is certainly below both Kubik and Molecule Man.

Why below Kubik?

Because he lost to Kubik when they fought.

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#26 Edited by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

Even if we consider her power being amped by otherworld, it still took Megan to collect power of the same otherworld, as well as beyond to barely seal the chaos wave, and she still died trying to accomplish that.

Ok and it's a good point, i was just commenting on that instance.

I am not as well versed with Jamie, my understand thus far was he is scary powerful isnt he?

Yeah, i read virtually everything on him, he has massive reality warping but lacking in the durability department, and when he gained access to the tower of the omniverse, that's what happened:

He literally had control over the whole omniverse

#27 Posted by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: It's an assumption, but in my opinion, the beyonder eventually evolved when he merged with Owen (the kubik fight was before that).

And that's pretty evident in Fantastic Four Annual #27, no?

Did you not get the impression in that issue that Owen And Beyonder are far above Kubik (while in the kubik/Beyonder fight, Kubik even states that he operates on levels unimaginable to Beyonder)?

#28 Posted by Killemall (18320 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: It's an assumption, but in my opinion, the beyonder eventually evolved when he merged with Owen (the kubik fight was before that).

Noting even remotely hinting to that sort of thing was said, why would one simply assume he evolved or became more powerful?

And that's pretty evident in Fantastic Four Annual #27, no?


What apart of it gave you the idea, the fact that they caused trans-multiversal damage, the fight between Kubik and Super Adoptoid with the same power was going to cause similar destruction, heck given the way its said one could easily interpret it as causing omniversal destruction.

Did you not get the impression in that issue that Owen And Beyonder are far above Kubik (while in the kubik/Beyonder fight, Kubik even states that he operates on levels unimaginable to Beyonder)?

Nope, Beyonder gets ripped out from Kosmos, mocked and defeated. What part of it should i have interpret it as being above Kubik?

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#29 Edited by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

Noting even remotely hinting to that sort of thing was said, why would one simply assume he evolved or became more powerful?

What apart of it gave you the idea, the fact that they caused trans-multiversal damage, the fight between Kubik and Super Adoptoid with the same power was going to cause similar destruction, heck given the way its said one could easily interpret it as causing omniversal destruction.

Nope, Beyonder gets ripped out from Kosmos, mocked and defeated. What part of it should i have interpret it as being above Kubik?

I already said it's an assumption, but it's back by logic, you'll see.

Kubik's and SA's battle was going to destroy the multiverse (infinite dimensions/universes), you can't assume they would destroy the omniverse unless the specific term is used, in my opinion.

That aside:

1. Let's look at Owen's bio before his battle with the Beyonder:

Apparently, Owen is dwarfed by the freakin' Watchers. Tell me something, do you believe that Watchers (or Galactus/Celestials) can cause trans-multiversal damage in their battle with extreme ease (because for them to dwarf trans-multiversal Owen, they'd have to be able to do that at the very least)??

.........yet, we also know that (post-retcon wise) Owen > Beyonder......but we have a comic (from 2005) saying that the Beyonder dwarfs the entire watchers race. (despite the fact that the Watchers dwarf Owen, and Owen is >> Beyonder).

2. By Kubik's own admission: Owen Reece dwarfs his power:

So, Kubik's power dwarfs (key word) the Beyonder's (because that's what he said in his fight with him and that's what happened), yet Beyonder was able to give this same Owen a massive fight? Does this make sense?? Because going by this logic, Owen should have oneshotted the Beyonder and treated him like an after-thought. Since you know .....Kubik dwarfs the Beyonder, and Owen dwarfs Kubik. See my point?

3.Beyonder is established to be far above Galactus even now (the 1st issue of Secret Wars, and the 2010 mini based on that certifies that)......yet, we know Galactus' power is close to Kubik's.

Just saying.

Anyway, it's impossible to answer @bronze_surfer's question, because of the massive continuity flaws surrounding the Beyonder.

#30 Posted by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor in all 3 .

#31 Posted by Bronze_Surfer (2966 posts) - - Show Bio

@hyper_god: pardon my french but how the frack does he win in round 2 and 3? I can understand one but 2 and 3?

#32 Posted by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@bronze_surfer said:

@hyper_god: pardon my french but how the frack does he win in round 2 and 3? I can understand one but 2 and 3?

Because Wanda , for all her power in HoM , was still a flawed individual with human level durability . I'd give any decent top-tier , hell any street-leveller a win against her in a forum fight . Conversely speaking , I'd give her the win against other superpowerful , nigh-omnipotent characters(except for the Supreme Beings of that comicdom) from different franchises as well .

#33 Posted by Noone301994 (3862 posts) - - Show Bio

#34 Posted by Mxyzptlk_CV (1122 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1: Probably Scarleet Witch

Round 2: Scarlet Witch

Round 3: Scarlet Witch wins

#35 Edited by Killemall (18320 posts) - - Show Bio

@rolldestroyer: Not sure i get anything other that, there was been continuity errors in the bio. You are telling me after being merged with Molecule Man in the cosmic cube, Beyonder became more powerful. My question is simple, why?

Its an odd assumption you are making, and you are using Fantastic Four Annual where they fought, but the problem is once they merge into the cube the cube itself gets sentinence as Kosmos.

Now from this point, till the point they actually fight in, we dont have Beyonder at all in the comic continuity.

Beyonder pops up only when Molecule Man drags Beyonder from Kubik's chest.

So i dont see how a character that does not exist till the point, all of a sudden gets powered up.

As per the supposedly trans-multiversal damage, well we saw the same thing been said about Kubik vs Super Adaptoid

So so a fight between Kubik and Super Adaptoid with Kubik power was going to threaten all of existence.

Furthermore, Kubik re-iterates the same thing next issue.

His bio even after all this still says is less than Celestials.

So yeah i dont take the fact that they somehow caused trans-multiversal damage as a showing suggesting Kubik is somehow less powerful than Beyonder, although yeah given his power level changes as Marvel flips and slides through what happened in Secret Wars his power level is pretty hard to actually incorporate.

Then you are using Beyonder feats from Secret War, be it written in 2010 or otherwise, its in line with an older story arc where Beyonder was just that powerful and hence a minor portion of his power allowed him to defeat both Galactus and Molecule (who in current continuity was dead at the time).

At least one of the bio tries to reconcile Beyonder power as him being as powerful as he believes.

As far as cosmic cube part is concerned, they fought, Beyonder lost, without anywhere it remoting hinting that Beyonder somehow became more powerful after being merged into a cube, specially given the cube turns into Kosmos who is personally being tutored by Kubik himself.

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#36 Posted by Bronze_Surfer (2966 posts) - - Show Bio

@hyper_god: Yes but she was killed in HOM. She just resuerected herself. Doubt thor can put her down wihout coming back

#37 Posted by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

@rolldestroyer: Not sure i get anything other that, there was been continuity errors in the bio. You are telling me after being merged with Molecule Man in the cosmic cube, Beyonder became more powerful. My question is simple, why?

Its an odd assumption you are making, and you are using Fantastic Four Annual where they fought, but the problem is once they merge into the cube the cube itself gets sentinence as Kosmos.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/3521640-01.jpg

Now from this point, till the point they actually fight in, we dont have Beyonder at all in the comic continuity.

Beyonder pops up only when Molecule Man drags Beyonder from Kubik's chest.

So i dont see how a character that does not exist till the point, all of a sudden gets powered up.

I know that it was never stated, hence why i said it's an assumption.

He gets powered up by the fact that he merged with Owen to become a cosmic cube. Same cosmic cube which later evolved into Kosmos, as your own scan shows. And later gets separated from her.

I mean, Kubik was there ready to crush the Beyonder and his universe when it was in his hand, back in their fight:

Then when Owen and Beyonder fought, Kubik is begging Owen not to kill the beyonder because it was wreck havoc across the entire multiverse:

Tell me, does that make sense?

Something ought to be wrong here, no?

Also, Beyonder was the embodiment of a single universe back in his fight with Kubik, why in the world would he suddenly gain multiversal significance (upon his death)??

If you could answer those questions.......then id be more than happy to agree with you.

As per the supposedly trans-multiversal damage, well we saw the same thing been said about Kubik vs Super Adaptoid

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/3521647-01.png

So so a fight between Kubik and Super Adaptoid with Kubik power was going to threaten all of existence.

Furthermore, Kubik re-iterates the same thing next issue.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/3521649-02.png

His bio even after all this still says is less than Celestials.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/3521650-03.png

So yeah i dont take the fact that they somehow caused trans-multiversal damage as a showing suggesting Kubik is somehow less powerful than Beyonder, although yeah given his power level changes as Marvel flips and slides through what happened in Secret Wars his power level is pretty hard to actually incorporate.

I Understand what you're saying here, but it still doesn't contradict my point.

So, Kubik's power dwarfs the Beyonder's as stated back in their fight:

Yet, Owen (whom Beyonder managed to give a fight) dwarfs Kubik himself:

So, given that Owen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kubik who is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Beyonder (According to their fight).

how does Beyonder give Owen a fight instead of getting one-shotted?

Don't know about you, but there's definitely something wrong here.

Then you are using Beyonder feats from Secret War, be it written in 2010 or otherwise, its in line with an older story arc where Beyonder was just that powerful and hence a minor portion of his power allowed him to defeat both Galactus and Molecule (who in current continuity was dead at the time).

At least one of the bio tries to reconcile Beyonder power as him being as powerful as he believes.

As far as cosmic cube part is concerned, they fought, Beyonder lost, without anywhere it remoting hinting that Beyonder somehow became more powerful after being merged into a cube, specially given the cube turns into Kosmos who is personally being tutored by Kubik himself.

Yeah, but the thing is, Molecule Man had mental blocks at the time when spider-man used beyonder's power to defeat Galactus.

Because Spiderman gained Beyonder's powers before Doctor Doom did, and Doctor Doom was the one who took away Owen's mental blocks which enabled him to be the most powerful being in the multiverse.

Given that the fantastic four (among others) were able to defeat Owen with mental blocks, is it really so hard to imagine that Inhuman/Mutant Beyonder was able to defeat him?

Ill let you decide for yourself.

#38 Posted by Killemall (18320 posts) - - Show Bio


I know that it was never stated, hence why i said it's an assumption.

I know, but you would need a hell of a basis for the said assumption though. How often does a character become significantly more powerful than what he has been earlier, and you find no mention of it anywhere in comics or bio?

He gets powered up by the fact that he merged with Owen to become a cosmic cube. Same cosmic cube which later evolved into Kosmos, as your own scan shows. And later gets separated from her.

Again where does it say he gets powered up, thats a very odd assumption to make given Kosmos herself is running around being tutored by Kubik both before and after the said fight.

I mean, Kubik was there ready to crush the Beyonder and his universe when it was in his hand, back in their fight:

Then when Owen and Beyonder fought, Kubik is begging Owen not to kill the beyonder because it was wreck havoc across the entire multiverse:

Tell me, does that make sense?

Something ought to be wrong here, no?

If you take Kubik's statement as genuine it doesnt make sense regardless.

Let me flip it around, why would Beyonder , now , even with the assumption that he became more powerful, has his importance to the universe/ multiverse increase?

Molecule Man who is more powerful than him was killed just fine during Seige, Kosmos who is another Beyonder after him being retconned as a inhuman has been killed just fine, in MC2 Galactus killed both Kubik and Kosmos, in another alternate reality MOD killed cosmic cube Molecule Man just as well.

Did the multiverse end in any of the instance or even affected?

Have you ever heard anything even remotely suggesting multiverse would be affected by a death of cosmic cube beyond the issue, say before or after?

You can choose to look at it the way you want, either you can see it as a huge mistake or evaluate Kubik's statement in regards to context presented.

First Kosmos was dying, fading into non-existence once Molecule Man ripped Beyonder out of her.

Secondly Kubik was in love with Kosmos

Would it be so hard to think Kubik could have lied to save the lady he loves?

After all the idea here is very odd, why would a being created by an energy from other another universe, when there are a lot more beings like him in the reality, and few of them have died just fine without reality being affected, why would Beyonder all of a sudden have anything suggesting his importance is so much more than everyone else?

I Understand what you're saying here, but it still doesn't contradict my point.

So, Kubik's power dwarfs the Beyonder's as stated back in their fight:

Yet, Owen (whom Beyonder managed to give a fight) dwarfs Kubik himself:

So, given that Owen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kubik who is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Beyonder (According to their fight).

how does Beyonder give Owen a fight instead of getting one-shotted?

Don't know about you, but there's definitely something wrong here.

You are seeing what you want to see as opposed to what on panel, i know happens to everyone, has happened to me before.

The second scan Kubik says "Thought our power is theoritically equal, your potential drawfs my own"

He doesnt say MM drawfs him in power, he says MM drawfs him in potential its a different thing.

That statement is actually again re-iterated later.

"The Molecule Man is barely more than myself and Kosmos, or the Beyonder. Where you are far, far more."

He doesnt say Molecule Man or Evil Molecule Man is significantly more powerful than him, although he does admit is more powerful.

Which is pretty much the thing.

Doesnt change Kubik actually having beaten Beyonder though.

Yeah, but the thing is, Molecule Man had mental blocks at the time when spider-man used beyonder's power to defeat Galactus.

Because Spiderman gained Beyonder's powers before Doctor Doom did, and Doctor Doom was the one who took away Owen's mental blocks which enabled him to be the most powerful being in the multiverse.

Given that the fantastic four (among others) were able to defeat Owen with mental blocks, is it really so hard to imagine that Inhuman/Mutant Beyonder was able to defeat him?

Ill let you decide for yourself.

I dont see how Moelcule Man having mental block changes the fact that the story takes place during Secret Wars, a story where Beyonder was significantly more powerful than before.

While we know his power level was supposedly retcon, you know marvel has more holes than swiss cheese in regards to the said retcon.

Why is it so hard to think Secret War story would show Beyonder in the same light he was when the Secret Wars was written?

And i dont have problem with Spiderman with a portion of Beyonder power beating Molecule Man, its hard for you to show any instance against any cosmic cube being that would even remotely hint, Beyonder with a minor portion of his power would somehow he able to actually defeat Galactus that easily.

If we are going off a one off showing of power, well Grandmaster someone whose power is drawfed by Galactus, was hinted to being more powerful than a cosmic cube.

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