Thor Vs Orion

@The_Last_Son_of_Czarnia said:

@venomoushatred1001: "Should" according to whom? Writers such as Walt Simonson, Paul Levitz, Jim Starlin, KIRBY HIMSELF, or a fan such as you?

"Bad writting" or not, you're disproving something that was referenced in comics (and a handbook) themselves with Wiki and Marvel dot com. Marvel dot com once had Quicksilver listed as faster than the Silver Surfer and said Doom with Class 2 strength was up there with the Hulk in physical strength.

My example shows that Motherbox can manipulate matter. In addition to that example, it armed Superman to fight Doomsday with equipment out of thin air. Prove Thor can turn insides to fruit against someone with matter manipulation of their own.

And the Astro Force doesn't even have to take down Thor, even though it KO'd Superman in one shot (I mentioned it as a defensive move too). Orion's fists at superspeed should be sufficient.

1. Says Logic. Darksied could mind rape the sh!t out of him of disentigrate him with a blast.And no, Orion does not have potection agaisnt this.

2. It is bad writting. No way is Superman gonna block a blow from MAGICAL weapon like Mjolnir being swung being swung by someone as strong as Thor. That is just common sense. Okay marvel wiki said that. Its a WIKI. Anyone can edit it if they have a membership. Also it was stated specifically by Marvel that it was non canon. I can show you a link if you want.

Back on topic, what feats is there that puts Orion above Thor in physical stats?

3. Granted Thor has not transmuted someone with matter manipulation, but Thor has plenty in his arsenal to take out Orion. I've already stated them.

4. To bad Orion can't fly with out his Mother box. Also just because his its are super speeddoesn't mean he'll blitz Thor. Thor has defeated BRB, Surfer, Gladiator, and Quicksilver. All had superspeed and still lost. Not to mention, Thor has super speed of his own.

@czarny_samael666 said:

You can't choose what You want.

Then why do you condone Thor/Beta Ray Bill supporters PISing away showings they don't like and clinging to ones they do?! "Thor has microsecond reaction speed." "Mongoose blitzing Thor doesn't count."

@czarny_samael666 said:

@Kallarkz said:

@czarny_samael666 said:

And what I am telling you is that that is the way that you have interpreted his character and how he has been written. Others have interpreted his character in the last years and how it has been written in another way.

That is what you are not understanding.

No. In this part You're simply worng. You can't choose what You want. You have to go by some standarts for everyone. And low-showings don't tell us everything about character. We don't know why he is not doing some things or why he isn't using his full strength. Besides, we acctually know that if writers wouldn't use PIS against Thor, most of Avengers enemies would die so fast that there would be no story. BRB is fighting in comics in which writers can allow him to use more force and better powers. There would be no Thor vs. Hulk fight without it, Thor would just do what Surfer and Rulk already did.

Wait a minute. You are actually saying that a person cannot have their own opinion and that they must go with what the majority think?

Sir I'm not quite sure what kind of life you have but if that is your mentality you will never go beyond where you are.

Put on your big boy pants and understand that not everyone agrees with everyone.

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@venomoushatred1001 said:

@The_Last_Son_of_Czarnia said:

Orion. Physically stronger and faster, and has answers to a lot of Thor's powers.

Explain. Orion has no feats to suggest he is any stronger or faster than Thor, nor does he have answers to all of his powers. He can be transmuted, have his soul stolen, and can be hit by the winds of a thousand worlds.

Thor wins.

Thor cannot steal souls. He robbed Loki of his Immortality ONCE using Mjolnir a long while back but that is all. He has not transmuted someone nearly as powerful as Orion. Absorbing Man is the only transmute I can think of and it's part of Absorbing Man's powerset in a sense ... can you provide other instances wherein he's transmuted powerful beings?

Orion is a more powerful Superman minus the weakness to magic and with more at his disposal. I think Thor might fall this time.

1. How is Orion a more powerful Superman?

2.. Marvel handbooks have blatantly stated that Thor' hammer can manipulate souls. So yes, he can steal souls.

@czarny_samael666 said:

My opinion does not need your individual respect.

This is NOT a science. I repeat this is NOT a science. I can tell you 3x3= 9 for a number of different reasons and that cannot under no circumstances be refuted by anyone on this planet.

What you are attempting to do is make Comic Books into a science and I'm sorry but that will never happen. We can attempt to reach a logical conclusion at some points but with decades of writing and different writers there are just so many ways at times to interpret what a character did, can do or will do.

Stop trying to make this into a math equation. There will never be a definitive yes or no to most of the topics in this section. It is all a MATTER OF OPINION.

@venomoushatred1001:

1. New gods are resistant to mind control. I cite Martian Manhunter's monthly book. Simonson has gone on record as saying the Astro-Force is the counter to the Omega Force, and he showed it in the comic he wrote.

2. Superman isn't weak to magic, just vulnerable. Saying anyone can edit wiki doesn't exactly help your case.

3. One of those examples is being called into question. The other is speculation. That leaves the thousand winds, which is impressive, until Orion's Astro-Force is factored in.

4. Orion doesn't use Motherbox to fly; he uses his glider. But what does that prove? Thor can't fly without Mjolnir. Orion has outraced bullets and caught them between his fingers. When's Thor done that?

And for a guy who dismisses Hulk consistently tagging much faster guys, look at your argument.

1. How is Orion a more powerful Superman?

@venomoushatred1001:

1. Orion being a more powerful Superman: no particular vulnerability to magic, heavy resistance to mind control, transmutation, teleportation, better healing factor, superior fighting skills.

Orion is Superman Plus.

@The_Last_Son_of_Czarnia said:

@venomoushatred1001:

1. New gods are resistant to mind control. I cite Martian Manhunter's monthly book. Simonson has gone on record as saying the Astro-Force is the counter to the Omega Force, and he showed it in the comic he wrote.

2. Superman isn't weak to magic, just vulnerable. Saying anyone can edit wiki doesn't exactly help your case.

3. One of those examples is being called into question. The other is speculation. That leaves the thousand winds, which is impressive, until Orion's Astro-Force is factored in.

4. Orion doesn't use Motherbox to fly; he uses his glider. But what does that prove? Thor can't fly without Mjolnir. Orion has outraced bullets and caught them between his fingers. When's Thor done that?

And for a guy who dismisses Hulk consistently tagging much faster guys, look at your argument.

1. Still don't stop Darksied from disintegration.

2. So? The hammer would still affect Superman. And being swung by a guy who can smash planets and stagger Galactus, it would have easily broken his hand. Saying anyone can edit wiki does help because, again, ANYONE could have write that it was cannon. It could have been written by some deranged dude who never picked up a comic in his life.

3. I doubt the Astro force is more durable than a skyfather and Marvel handbooks already stated that Thor's hammer can manipulate souls.

4. I mean t glider. Catching bullets is impressive, but Thor has shown microsecond reaction time and has outraced Silver Surfer.

Hulk being able to tag those people is bad writing/fan wanking because Hulk has absolutly no speed feats whatsoever and has been blitzed by people like Spider-Man and Wolverine. If people like that can blitz him, why can't gladiator or Thor, but that is beside the point because Hulk has nothing to do with this debate.

@YoungGunna said:

@venomoushatred1001 said:

1. How is Orion a more powerful Superman?

Orion has historically been more powerful than Superman. They've had 4 in continuity now, 5 if you seperate those from Supes confidential. Orion was definitively superior during the Byrne era, IMHO, and did better against a sun amped Supes than the rest of the JLA combined (Wonder Woman, Kyle Rayner and Martian Manhunter included), they stalemated once briefly and mostly off panel in Ostrander's Martian Manhunter run, and then there is the Superman Confidential example where Orion one shotted him with Astro Force.

The Byrne era example was the most definitive, though, as Orion casually backhanded Supes away, took his punches while thinking calmly, and actually had to aim around Supes with 'surgical precision' with the Astro Force rather than hit him directly for fear of killing him.

I see. Thanks for the insight. It could really go either way.

@venomoushatred1001 said:

1. How is Orion a more powerful Superman?

He once fought a blood-lusted Superman pretty evenly and I don't think Orion was even going all out and another time, he knocked Superman unconscious with just one blast with his astro-force.

@venomoushatred1001:

1. Yes it did. Read Orion #5.

2. Reread what you just typed. You cited wiki as evidence for your side of the argument, then you bring up the fact that anyone can edit it - including people who have never read comics. Hardly a good source then.

3. Thor is a skyfather in power? A Marvel handbook also said that JLAvengers was canon. And if we're using handbooks, why can't I cite the DC Encyclopedia or Armageddon: Inferno as outright stating Lobo laughs off Superman's punches and has superspeed?

4. How does outracing Silver Surfer prove he is fast when it comes to reflexes?

And if you use that argument against Hulk, what's stopping me from using the argument that Thor is slower than Mongoose and everything showing otherwise is PIS?

@The_Last_Son_of_Czarnia:

Thor's hammer and life force is skyfather in power. His hammer is a skyfather level weapon and his god blast has injured a starving Galactus, defeated both Surtur with the Twilight Sword and Ymir and won that war of Asgard, has stopped the Juggernaut in motion, and ect. He isn't skyfather in terms of magical ability though.

I have to agree with number 4. Doesn't matter if Thor can outrace Surfer (I still doubt they were even racing)

orion

@venomoushatred1001 said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@venomoushatred1001 said:

@The_Last_Son_of_Czarnia said:

Orion. Physically stronger and faster, and has answers to a lot of Thor's powers.

Explain. Orion has no feats to suggest he is any stronger or faster than Thor, nor does he have answers to all of his powers. He can be transmuted, have his soul stolen, and can be hit by the winds of a thousand worlds.

Thor wins.

Thor cannot steal souls. He robbed Loki of his Immortality ONCE using Mjolnir a long while back but that is all. He has not transmuted someone nearly as powerful as Orion. Absorbing Man is the only transmute I can think of and it's part of Absorbing Man's powerset in a sense ... can you provide other instances wherein he's transmuted powerful beings?

Orion is a more powerful Superman minus the weakness to magic and with more at his disposal. I think Thor might fall this time.

1. How is Orion a more powerful Superman?

2.. Marvel handbooks have blatantly stated that Thor' hammer can manipulate souls. So yes, he can steal souls.

1. Orion being more powerful than Superman has already been explained.

2. Soul manipulation is not stealing ones soul. And Marvel Handbooks have stated many a thing, often contradicting themselves aplenty, throughout many of their incarnations throughout many a decade. They don't hold much stock unless consistency can be proven, or the most modern, up to date, version pronounces it clearly without err. Moreso, feats must back up such claims.

With respect, based off one half arsed feat, that being removing Loki's immortality (for a short time), I would not count 'soul stealing' as part of Thor's standard repetoir of feats. It's not like he squares off against his opponents, even in the face of imminent death, and then steals their souls. He had to knock Nul out of orbit to win via BFR before dropping himself from the battle. He was more than willing to kill in that battle as well. You'd think Thor would've just stolen his soul, or whatever, if that were a principle powerset of his. There are many more instances throughout his career where siphoning ones soul would have eased his troubles tremendously. Why does he not do so? Because unlike Superman's heat vision (for example) writers do not acknowledge it as standard for the character. That's why.

Soul stealing has not been acknowledged on panel as an official powerset. It is thrown around way too often to justify an unjustifiable, and unlikely, majority win for Thor IMO.

Close fight, i give it to Orion

Could go either way IMO.

Lobo has the power to name a number and the higher it is, the more powerful the explosion.

I never bring that up in debates.

@The_Last_Son_of_Czarnia said:

Lobo has the power to name a number and the higher it is, the more powerful the explosion.

I never bring that up in debates.

Wait what ? What is that, sounds interesting.

@TheMightyAvenger: He learned "the secret of the exploding numbers" in a one-shot titled "Fragtastic Voyage." He's never used or even referenced the power since.

And yes, he can name any number, even a godzillion which wiped out an alien empire.

@The_Last_Son_of_Czarnia: LOL !!! Lobo is such a boss.

@The_Last_Son_of_Czarnia said:

@TheMightyAvenger: He learned "the secret of the exploding numbers" in a one-shot titled "Fragtastic Voyage." He's never used or even referenced the power since.

And yes, he can name any number, even a godzillion which wiped out an alien empire.

LOL wow

@The_Last_Son_of_Czarnia said:

@TheMightyAvenger: He learned "the secret of the exploding numbers" in a one-shot titled "Fragtastic Voyage." He's never used or even referenced the power since.

And yes, he can name any number, even a godzillion which wiped out an alien empire.

Wow.... Now I wish he used it more!

@czarny_samael666 said:

My opinion does not need your individual respect.

This is NOT a science. I repeat this is NOT a science. I can tell you 3x3= 9 for a number of different reasons and that cannot under no circumstances be refuted by anyone on this planet.

What you are attempting to do is make Comic Books into a science and I'm sorry but that will never happen. We can attempt to reach a logical conclusion at some points but with decades of writing and different writers there are just so many ways at times to interpret what a character did, can do or will do.

Stop trying to make this into a math equation. There will never be a definitive yes or no to most of the topics in this section. It is all a MATTER OF OPINION.

@venomoushatred1001 said:

1. How is Orion a more powerful Superman?

He once fought a blood-lusted Superman pretty evenly and I don't think Orion was even going all out and another time, he knocked Superman unconscious with just one blast with his astro-force.

@czarny_samael666 said:

@MrDirector786 said:

@venomoushatred1001 said:

1. How is Orion a more powerful Superman?

He once fought a blood-lusted Superman pretty evenly and I don't think Orion was even going all out and another time, he knocked Superman unconscious with just one blast with his astro-force.

The point is rather that he has all Supes powers (like FTL reaction speed) or not. And that by wininng with Supe he doesn't have (ABC logic) to be stronger than him. Orion and Superman are completly different, mostly like Thor and Surfer, so I don't see a point with bringing Superman here.

I disagree. Beating Superman is a feat. And an impressive one at that. Huge relevance to this debate as it provides a just barometer outlining Orion's strength/durability/speed/power levels.

Bringing it up in and of itself is not ABC logic. Were one to simply state "Orion beat Superman and therefore he'll beat Thor" then yes, this would be ABC logic.

However, holding off a bloodlusted Supes and KO'ing Supes is a huge notch in Orion's belt.

Orion in a close match.

@czarny_samael666 said:

@MrDirector786 said:

@venomoushatred1001 said:

1. How is Orion a more powerful Superman?

He once fought a blood-lusted Superman pretty evenly and I don't think Orion was even going all out and another time, he knocked Superman unconscious with just one blast with his astro-force.

The point is rather that he has all Supes powers (like FTL reaction speed) or not. And that by wininng with Supe he doesn't have (ABC logic) to be stronger than him. Orion and Superman are completly different, mostly like Thor and Surfer, so I don't see a point with bringing Superman here.

I was just answering the question of how he's more powerful than Superman. Nothing more.

I concede. Orion wins after a hard fight.

@The_Last_Son_of_Czarnia said:

@venomoushatred1001:

1. Yes it did. Read Orion #5.

2. Reread what you just typed. You cited wiki as evidence for your side of the argument, then you bring up the fact that anyone can edit it - including people who have never read comics. Hardly a good source then.

3. Thor is a skyfather in power? A Marvel handbook also said that JLAvengers was canon. And if we're using handbooks, why can't I cite the DC Encyclopedia or Armageddon: Inferno as outright stating Lobo laughs off Superman's punches and has superspeed?

4. How does outracing Silver Surfer prove he is fast when it comes to reflexes?

And if you use that argument against Hulk, what's stopping me from using the argument that Thor is slower than Mongoose and everything showing otherwise is PIS?

Wait..Darkseid intentionally struck himself with his own beams and made Orion think otherwise

@The_Last_Son_of_Czarnia said:

Lobo has the power to name a number and the higher it is, the more powerful the explosion.

I never bring that up in debates.

PIS i tell you,he also has that cloning ability does'nt he?

@entropy_aegis:

1. Simonson ain't sayin'.

2. No, he regained it when he was Li'l Lobo but that was a side effect of Klarion's de-aging. Now that he's back to full-grown, he doesn't have it.

@The_Last_Son_of_Czarnia said:

@entropy_aegis:

1. Simonson ain't sayin'.

2. No, he regained it when he was Li'l Lobo but that was a side effect of Klarion's de-aging. Now that he's back to full-grown, he doesn't have it.

I remember the fight,IIRC Darkseid sent his beams,Orion put up his shield,beams rebound towards Darkseid and strike him.Orion thinks he's won,but Darkseid is later seen explaining that it was intentional.

@entropy_aegis: Sounds right from what I remember. But, Simonson has gone on record as saying Darkseid was not pulling his punches - because Orion would've caught on.

One time he even said Orion was killing him.

@The_Last_Son_of_Czarnia said:

@entropy_aegis: Sounds right from what I remember. But, Simonson has gone on record as saying Darkseid was not pulling his punches - because Orion would've caught on.

One time he even said Orion was killing him.

Well Orion is on Darkseid's level physically,you won't find me denying that.

I think it's fairly even. Both characters, using their full potential (full magic of Mjolnir and full power of Astro Force) are much stronger than their average showings suggest. Both characters also suffer from roughly the same character flaw of often forgoing these powers in favor of duking it out with their opponent physically. Just look at Orion vs. Kalibak; he could probably crush him in 1 page if he really wanted to, but instead Orion's "honor" (or probably just pride, really) has him engage in extended melee battles (which he should still be able to win pretty easily, frankly). On the other side, you've got Thor doing basically the same thing with Ulik and various other characters.

Is the Astro Force more powerful than Mjolnir? I'm not sure. The God Blast is incredibly potent, allowing Thor to harm beings well beyond his normal power levels. Even aside from that, Mjolnir can fire bolts of energy and anti-force; it is not restricted to just lightning. Not sure what their actual best destructive feat is though; he used it to kill Michael Korvac and his girlfriend, but Korvac let himself die at the end, and Carina was a lot less powerful, though still no weakling. He also used it to escape Ego's grasp on one occasion, and damage his brain on another. He actually harmed Mangog with it once, and beat him by shoving it down his throat.

Neither of them are really known for speed. Orion can fight Superman. Thor can fight Gladiator. I don't see why one would outweigh the other. Orion's apparently caught a bullet by running after it. Thor caught a space rocket by jumping after it, although I'm not sure how long it takes a shuttle launch to reach maximum velocity. The only person I can remember seeing Thor "blitz" is Absorbing Man (not saying much). I can't remember Orion blitzing anyone off hand (not to say it hasn't happened, just don't recall a clear instance).

Thor's best strength feat is probably moving the Midgard Serpent, which was big enough to coil around the Earth multiple times. Orion's is probably just matching Superman, since people tend to ascribe planet moving strength to anyone Superman has a hard time with. On the other hand, in Firestorm he could barely lift an object that would have weighed perhaps 3,000 tons. Not bad, but kind of puny compared to moving a planet (and people love bringing that arc up too, since it shows Darkseid smacking away Orion easily). Could just be a low-showing though. I'm not sure either character goes out of their way to lift stupidly heavy objects the way Superman sometimes seems to. I don't think even Classic Thor has the kind of frequent and ridiculous strength feats some people think he might; the Midgard Serpent thing didn't happen until the 80's, and I don't remember much in his own mag before that which would clearly suggest having far in excess of class 100 strength (I haven't read much of the old Avengers though, so maybe there's more in those issues).

I think both characters have what it takes to bring the other down. Their preferred mode of combat would have them duking it out for god knows how long. Thor might have a slight advantage, since he still likes using Mjolnir in his fist fights, but there are definitely times he has discarded it in order to even things out. Going all-out, I think they could still be pretty even, there would just be a lot more collateral damage. Bringing up low showings for either could go on forever (though I suspect Thor has the worst of the bunch, once being taken out by a falling boat mast). Ultimately I suspect Orion was basically designed in many ways to be a more savage, more tragic version of Thor; they actually equate to each other much better than Thor does to Superman.

@The_Last_Son_of_Czarnia said:

@TheMightyAvenger: He learned "the secret of the exploding numbers" in a one-shot titled "Fragtastic Voyage." He's never used or even referenced the power since.

And yes, he can name any number, even a godzillion which wiped out an alien empire.

I think a lot of Lobo's stuff, especially his own miniseries, should be retconned as the results of massive substance abuse, particularly alcohol and hallucinogens. That or he's just crazy. Or all of the above.

i say Orion would win

thor