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#1 Edited by xxxddd (3572 posts) - - Show Bio

No Odin Force, Destroyer isn't occupied, and no bystanders on Earth.

#2 Posted by pooty (11011 posts) - - Show Bio
@xxxddd said:

No Odin Force, Destroyer isn't occupied, and no bystanders on Earth.

stalemate. Destroyer can't move without a host

#3 Posted by xxxddd (3572 posts) - - Show Bio
#4 Posted by pooty (11011 posts) - - Show Bio

@xxxddd said:

@pooty: Yes it can.

really? since when? When has it done so?

#5 Posted by amalgamuniverse (334 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty: I think he is just making an exception here. We know that it can't function without a host, but he is just changing it a little bit.

#6 Posted by pooty (11011 posts) - - Show Bio
#7 Posted by Killemall (18477 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty: Thor could BFR Destroyer like he has done before, that seem to be a reasonable means for victory. Going head on Thor well gets killed, like he has in the past.

#8 Posted by pooty (11011 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: I always forget about BFR. I have a personal dislike of it on battle forums. but sadly it is a victory

#9 Posted by Killemall (18477 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty: Same. Without that Thor is horribly outgunned.

#10 Posted by xxxddd (3572 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall:

@pooty: I think he is just making an exception here. We know that it can't function without a host, but he is just changing it a little bit.

Correct. I knew if I put someone like Doom or Reed inside then they would be smart enough to kill Thor before he can do anything.

#11 Posted by xxxddd (3572 posts) - - Show Bio
#12 Posted by russellmania77 (14851 posts) - - Show Bio

i guess destroyer

#13 Posted by Killemall (18477 posts) - - Show Bio

@xxxddd said:

Correct. I knew if I put someone like Doom or Reed inside then they would be smart enough to kill Thor before he can do anything.

Actually regardless of who you put inside the destroyer Thor is outmatched, barring BFR.

#14 Edited by dondave (35990 posts) - - Show Bio

Destroyer

#15 Posted by xxxddd (3572 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: Yeah, but Thor going head on in the past never involved him unleashing his hammmer's esoteric abilities. Plus, if there IS a host inside, why can't Thor just remove him/her?

#16 Edited by Killemall (18477 posts) - - Show Bio

@xxxddd said:

@killemall: Yeah, but Thor going head on in the past never involved him unleashing his hammmer's esoteric abilities.

And what abilities would you use against an armour forged to fight the Celestial and by all intent and purpose mean to be un-defeatable against opponents at this level.

We have seen both normal as well as Odin Force Thor being helpless against the Destroyer before the plot, its hard to see why Thor could perform any better.

Plus, if there IS a host inside, why can't Thor just remove him/her?

Because the spirit works as mere fuel, merged with the destroyer. Thor has never shown the ability to grab souls from inside the destroyer.

#17 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall:

Helpless isn't a word I'd use for either of the fights an Odin-Powered Thor has had with the Destroyer. The post Ragnarok fight was mostly a stalemate where Thor was chatting with Blake in his head while fighting the Destroyer - who he was afraid the direct hit from the visor blast would kill him - still tanking it non worse for wear. King Thor dropped it with a Mjolnir toss (Albeit after it was altered by the Designate).

In a fight now - Thor would lose if he directly was forced to fight without BFR. Although depending on which Thor you're reading (Avengers - Jobber Thor or Thor: God of Thunder -Thor) would define how gloriously he would lose. Unless the Destroyer is a lot weaker than I think it is without a spirit empowering it directly. .

#18 Posted by Killemall (18477 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke: I suppose we see things differently. Thor tried hitting Destroyer like he always does with no avail, and realizing he is outmatched he calls forth the Asgardian army to apparently give Destroyer "pause". Thor actually outright said, dropping his defenses, which he was using his hammer to block his attack, might outright kill him.

And he has the whole plot helping him.

King Thor thing of course is not canon and thats pretty much one of the lowest showing for him.

I would say Thor in Avengers and other issue seem to be the level i would expect Thor to be, he just looks a lot more powerful than what i have normally seen Thor to be in his solo.

#19 Posted by The_Titan_Lord (5110 posts) - - Show Bio

Destroyer.

#20 Edited by Dark Cloud™ (2174 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm all for the hype of Destroyer, but because it's running with no host, I don't see why Thor should lose. With that, I'll give Thor the win for now.

#21 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke: I suppose we see things differently. Thor tried hitting Destroyer like he always does with no avail, and realizing he is outmatched he calls forth the Asgardian army to apparently give Destroyer "pause". Thor actually outright said, dropping his defenses, which he was using his hammer to block his attack, might outright kill him.

And he has the whole plot helping him.

King Thor thing of course is not canon and thats pretty much one of the lowest showing for him.

I would say Thor in Avengers and other issue seem to be the level i would expect Thor to be, he just looks a lot more powerful than what i have normally seen Thor to be in his solo.

We're talking about two different fights. I was referring to Thorforce Thor that was fighting the Destroyer on even ground and only pausing to defend himself from a visor blast (in-which he pauses to rethink the situation), and then tanks a direct hit from the Destroyer's best attack as he restores Balder's physical body (along with the rest of the Asgardians adjacent to him). Sure he thought it would kill him, but he ends up tanking it without any significant damage sort of his outfit. Nothing about that involved him summoning an army (he revived an assortment of villians - but that's about it) - mainly because the Asgardians for the most part were still not revived short of Heimdall.

King Thor retconned his reign - but Thor was still sporting that information during Ragnarok. He was still no-showing a Designate powered Destroyer's visor blasts and one shotting the Desak Destroyer.

#22 Posted by Killemall (18477 posts) - - Show Bio

We're talking about two different fights.

No we arent, its the same fight we are talking about.

Its the same issue.

First he was afraid the Destroyer visor would nearly killed him if he dropped the defense too long

"And though it may nearly kill me to drop the defense long enough for the hammer to bring me into that sky, so must it be done whatever the cost"

And we clearly see him screaming in pain while hit by the Destroyer blast, scruffed dress, signs that shows he was pretty badly hurt. Lucky though coz he only tanked it a short while for him to just fly into the sky so he can call forth the Asgardian army to help him fight the Destroyer.

More likely because he took the blast for only a short time, time enough for him to fly in the sky. Had it been a prolongued exposure more than likely he would have, at the very least KOed.

Here here you are.

"But whatever its reasons, even the destroyer must pause before the strength of not just Thor, but a small army of the other asgardian, which was my strategy in bringing the battle up here"

Thor knew he couldnt beat the destroyer, so he was going to summon an army lucky for him the soul that activated the destroyer was Balder's so he didnt have to find the destroyer anymore.

He was going to revive the whole army, but seeing Balder revived and Destroyer stopped .

King Thor retconned his reign - but Thor was still sporting that information during Ragnarok. He was still no-showing a Designate powered Destroyer's visor blasts and one shotting the Desak Destroyer.

Doesnt matter because it was an alternate reality and not 616. In fact the very second page in Thor # 79 (renumbered 581) , the same issue he fights the Destroyer we are told, pretty explicitly its an alternate reality.

Left hand corner , on the top, it clearly says "Earth 2170"

#23 Edited by jojjimbo (2472 posts) - - Show Bio

Destroyer.

#24 Posted by BOdinson (224 posts) - - Show Bio

Doesnt matter because it was an alternate reality and not 616. In fact the very second page in Thor # 79 (renumbered 581) , the same issue he fights the Destroyer we are told, pretty explicitly its an alternate reality.

Left hand corner , on the top, it clearly says "Earth 2170"

Well isn't it so-called "Earth-3515"? The 2170 you mention there is the year in which the scene in that scan takes place. That was after Thor already controlled earth for more than 150-years.

#25 Posted by Killemall (18477 posts) - - Show Bio

@bodinson said:


Well isn't it so-called "Earth-3515"? The 2170 you mention there is the year in which the scene in that scan takes place. That was after Thor already controlled earth for more than 150-years.

Earth 3515 was the official name given to Reigning future, however every even that takes place after the current time is 616, is chucked under an alternate reality.

And hence it being an Earth, in future, already make it alternate reality and non canon to Marvel 616 which was the point being brought forward.

It was always written to be non canon, from the get go, before the apparently retconned occur ed because of time travel.

#26 Posted by BOdinson (224 posts) - - Show Bio

@bodinson said:

Well isn't it so-called "Earth-3515"? The 2170 you mention there is the year in which the scene in that scan takes place. That was after Thor already controlled earth for more than 150-years.

Earth 3515 was the official name given to Reigning future, however every even that takes place after the current time is 616, is chucked under an alternate reality.

And hence it being an Earth, in future, already make it alternate reality and non canon to Marvel 616 which was the point being brought forward.

It was always written to be non canon, from the get go, before the apparently retconned occur ed because of time travel.

yeah but still, the 2170 is the year in which these events took place. I'm not arguing whether it's canon or non-canon, Thor himself made sure of that when he went into the past and gave the younger Thor all the memories of what was to transpire exactly to prevent him from doing it over again.

I'm not questioning that part, I was merely pointing out that the 2170 that you referred to wasn't the name given to this "earth" it was just the "date" in which it occurred. A small point and really perhaps inconsequential but still, just pointing it out. lol

#27 Edited by Killemall (18477 posts) - - Show Bio

@bodinson said:

yeah but still, the 2170 is the year in which these events took place. I'm not arguing whether it's canon or non-canon, Thor himself made sure of that when he went into the past and gave the younger Thor all the memories of what was to transpire exactly to prevent him from doing it over again.

I'm not questioning that part, I was merely pointing out that the 2170 that you referred to wasn't the name given to this "earth" it was just the "date" in which it occurred. A small point and really perhaps inconsequential but still, just pointing it out. lol

Fair enough, although that part i was already aware of .

But no worries :)

#28 Edited by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall said:

Considering you're referring to an asgardian army stopping the Destroyer - rather than just Thorforce Thor - it doesn't sound that way.

@killemall said:

First he was afraid the Destroyer visor would nearly killed him if he dropped the defense too long

"And though it may nearly kill me to drop the defense long enough for the hammer to bring me into that sky, so must it be done whatever the cost"

And we clearly see him screaming in pain while hit by the Destroyer blast, scruffed dress, signs that shows he was pretty badly hurt. Lucky though coz he only tanked it a short while for him to just fly into the sky so he can call forth the Asgardian army to help him fight the Destroyer.

More likely because he took the blast for only a short time, time enough for him to fly in the sky. Had it been a prolongued exposure more than likely he would have, at the very least KOed.

He said "though it may nearly kill me" - may being the key word there. That was Thor's speculation on what may happen if he face-tanks a visor blast from the Destroyer. Instead he was treated to an "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGHHHHHH!" and continued flying on to do what he said he was going to do. Thor himself being nonetheless none worse for wear compared to his outfit.

The latter portion of what may have happened if he stood there a minute or an hour longer is speculation - based off Thor's speculation. He was under the impression it wouldn't kill him, but it could - all worth the risk. KOs or death - clearly didn't happen when he did drop his guard to tank it.

Grunting in pain and a damaged outfit is hardly evidence of being 'badly hurt' since Thor been victim of both in a plethora of fights.

@killemall said:
Here here you are.

"But whatever its reasons, even the destroyer must pause before the strength of not just Thor, but a small army of the other asgardian, which was my strategy in bringing the battle up here"

Thor knew he couldnt beat the destroyer, so he was going to summon an army lucky for him the soul that activated the destroyer was Balder's so he didnt have to find the destroyer anymore.

Thor was being a idiot there, but I forgot the reason why he revived those gods - and by doing so Balder (thanks for the reminder). The issue here is this isn't what you described, you said he called them forth (implying they actually came to his aid). That is very different from saying 'he thought about it, tried to do it - turned the process released Balder anyway.'

All I could see was Thor was looking to gain the advantage in that fight - which summoning a bunch of nobody Asgardians wouldn't have done anyway but whatever on that - that was his intent. Whether he thought he couldn't win wasn't exactly mentioned or really implied in the text.

@killemall said:
He was going to revive the whole army, but seeing Balder revived and Destroyer stopped .

Thor mentions his 'strategy' in the scan you posted - the army he was going to revive was the nearby asgardians. If he tried to revive all of them - like he eventually did - he would have KOed himself. The reason he stopped was because he finished the act. If he was going for all of Asgard he would have flown into orbit and gave a death speech.

But I'm assuming this might be another misunderstanding of your intent. If so sorry.

@bodinson said:

@killemall said:

Doesnt matter because it was an alternate reality and not 616. In fact the very second page in Thor # 79 (renumbered 581) , the same issue he fights the Destroyer we are told, pretty explicitly its an alternate reality.

Left hand corner , on the top, it clearly says "Earth 2170"

Well isn't it so-called "Earth-3515"? The 2170 you mention there is the year in which the scene in that scan takes place. That was after Thor already controlled earth for more than 150-years.

This guy beat me to the punch, nothing about that being an alternate reality. Which isn't a debate given Thor and the Designate retcon these events - which made it alternate universe. Otherwise this was the 616 reality till the two of them retconned it. Which is why we are treated to an image of Thor, merging his younger self with a mortal / transferring all his memories to said Thor from the 150 years of reigning. Namely the reason he was with the Enchantress in Ragnarok and talking about how he could previously re-organize the stars when he had the Odin power, etc - which he lost because he did this.

The reigning had consequences in the 616 universe for Thor and Odin was predicting the reigning prior to it happening to boot.

#29 Posted by Killemall (18477 posts) - - Show Bio

Considering you're referring to an asgardian army stopping the Destroyer - rather than just Thorforce Thor - it doesn't sound that way.

I am surprised.

Its clearly on panel stated that, Thor plans to call forth the Asgardian army and that would give the destroyer pause, which is exactly what i said.

He said "though it may nearly kill me" - may being the key word there. That was Thor's speculation on what may happen if he face-tanks a visor blast from the Destroyer. Instead he was treated to an "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGHHHHHH!" and continued flying on to do what he said he was going to do. Thor himself being nonetheless none worse for wear compared to his outfit.

The latter portion of what may have happened if he stood there a minute or an hour longer is speculation - based off Thor's speculation. He was under the impression it wouldn't kill him, but it could - all worth the risk. KOs or death - clearly didn't happen when he did drop his guard to tank it.

Grunting in pain and a damaged outfit is hardly evidence of being 'badly hurt' since Thor been victim of both in a plethora of fights.


Thats the whole point and you are nitpicking.

Thor was scared that the blast could potentially kill him, while everything Thor does was doing absolutely nothing against the Destroyer armour, and Thor knew it , thats why in the middle of the fight, Thor decides, lets call the army.

And he dropped his guard for a second, long enough for him to fly, so its for a short amount of time.

This guy beat me to the punch, nothing about that being an alternate reality. Which isn't a debate given Thor and the Designate retcon these events - which made it alternate universe. Otherwise this was the 616 reality till the two of them retconned it. Which is why we are treated to an image of Thor, merging his younger self with a mortal / transferring all his memories to said Thor from the 150 years of reigning. Namely the reason he was with the Enchantress in Ragnarok and talking about how he could previously re-organize the stars when he had the Odin power, etc - which he lost because he did this.

The reigning had consequences in the 616 universe for Thor and Odin was predicting the reigning prior to it happening to boot.

No he didnt.

The point was pretty clear, any event that takes place is the future point in 616 is alternate reality.

Same way Spiderman 2099 is from a differnet reality, same way GOTG is from a differnet reality.

Future of 616 is never predestined, so any event that takes place in future from the point we are in is actually not 616 anymore, which was the point i was making.

The fight doesnt take place is 616 reality but future of 616 reality much like other futures (Spiderman 2099, Guardian of the Galaxy, MC2 reality, Here Comes Tomorrow reality etc)

So regardless of the retcon caused by time travelling it was always an alternate reality.

It is and was always intented to be alternate reality, hence why the even took place in the future.

#30 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

The problem is that isn't what you said.

Thor tried hitting Destroyer like he always does with no avail, and realizing he is outmatched he calls forth the Asgardian army to apparently give Destroyer "pause".

'Calls forth' implies he actually summoned an army to fight the Destroyer - the reality is his attempt to bring a number of Asgardians back defeated the Destroyer - which prior to his effort of doing so he was stalemating (literally neither gaining an upper hand on the other). That's how it reads.

@killemall said:

Thor was scared that the blast could potentially kill him, while everything Thor does was doing absolutely nothing against the Destroyer armour, and Thor knew it , thats why in the middle of the fight, Thor decides, lets call the army.

And he dropped his guard for a second, long enough for him to fly, so its for a short amount of time.

All Thor did it was hit it four or five times with his hammer. The Destroyer clashes physically with his strikes and then immediately goes to visor blast him prompting Thor to defend. Which ends up being a stalemate move since neither are doing anything significant to one another.

This would all be an interpretation of time and an interpretation of how effective one perceives the direct hit Thor allows affects him. How the actual fight between them went was no-where and that's the point I made. They were in effectively a stalemate.

@killemall said:

No he didnt.

The point was pretty clear, any event that takes place is the future point in 616 is alternate reality.

Same way Spiderman 2099 is from a differnet reality, same way GOTG is from a differnet reality.

Future of 616 is never predestined, so any event that takes place in future from the point we are in is actually not 616 anymore, which was the point i was making.

The fight doesnt take place is 616 reality but future of 616 reality much like other futures (Spiderman 2099, Guardian of the Galaxy, MC2 reality, Here Comes Tomorrow reality etc)

So regardless of the retcon caused by time travelling it was always an alternate reality.

It is and was always intented to be alternate reality, hence why the even took place in the future.

You made a claim that the scan confirmed it was an alternate world, that it was listed as "Earth 2170." That wasn't correct and said user pointed that out - that's beating me to the punch of doing the same and that's what I acknowledged. And it only became an 'alternate reality' when Thor and the Designate retconned the events - providing the 'Present' Thor with all his memories of said events to prevent them from being repeated. The implication here is that said universe was the 616 universe till Thor retconned it into an alternate universe and said showings are more than valid to bring up when talking about an Odin-Powered Thor. They are the same character - all characters - Destroyer included aren't wonky alternate copies - but the future 616 counterparts prior till time travel shenanigans.

It wasn't an alternate reality till time travel shenanigans. That simply doesn't make sense if Thor linearly travels through time to change the course of history if he is universe hopping to do it. That's why Odin was seeing this Reigning future to boot in visions - that was 616 till time travel shenanigans.

Do you understand what I'm saying or are we going to butt-heads over something this silly?

#31 Posted by Bo88gdan (4393 posts) - - Show Bio
#32 Edited by xxxddd (3572 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: I know I'm bumping this, but here me out.

I am just confused with this fight.

Thor didn't have the Odin Force in that fight, he gave it up to repair Mjolnir in Thor #601. So how is it that all other encounters between Thor and the Destroyer result in Thor nearly losing his life in a head-on fight, yet in this one, Thor smashes the Destroyer's armor without trying?

#33 Posted by TifaLockhart (14044 posts) - - Show Bio

If the Destroyer is capable of acting, Thor needs to BFR it.

Check out Jurgens' run where a loser by the name of Colonel Preston Scott Case animates the Destroyer and literally oneshot kills Thor. This thing is no joke.

#34 Posted by Killemall (18477 posts) - - Show Bio

@xxxddd said:

@killemall: I know I'm bumping this, but here me out.

I am just confused with this fight.

Thor didn't have the Odin Force in that fight, he gave it up to repair Mjolnir in Thor #601. So how is it that all other encounters between Thor and the Destroyer result in Thor nearly losing his life in a head-on fight, yet in this one, Thor smashes the Destroyer's armor without trying?

Because that isnt the orginal Destroyer armor but a replica created by Dr. Doom.

The Armor was actually doing quite well against Thor, it was only after Thor realized it runs with the life force of Asgardian ,and cut if off the power source we was able to defeat it.

#35 Posted by xxxddd (3572 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: Why couldn't Doom just use the actual Destroyer?

#36 Posted by CaptnMcDeadpool (956 posts) - - Show Bio

@xxxddd said:

@killemall: Why couldn't Doom just use the actual Destroyer?

He would have to otherwise know how to get it to work. Loki has done it. Galactus has done it. Killemall could elaborate more than me, though. Given Doom's mystic acumen, one would think he would be able to.

?

#37 Posted by xxxddd (3572 posts) - - Show Bio

@captnmcdeadpool: I know Doom couldn't get it to work, he said something about "Asgardian life force" is neccessary for the Destroyer to operate....I thought any being could use it.

#38 Posted by Killemall (18477 posts) - - Show Bio

@xxxddd said:

@killemall: Why couldn't Doom just use the actual Destroyer?

Because Doom didnt have the actual Destroyer armor with him. It was in Asgard with Thor and the Asgardians.

#39 Posted by Eisenfauste (8112 posts) - - Show Bio

Destroyer, too strong for thor to take.

#40 Posted by ShootingNova (16115 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor could BFR Destroyer like he has done before, that seem to be a reasonable means for victory. Going head on Thor well gets killed, like he has in the past.

Pretty much this, I guess.

#41 Posted by CaptnMcDeadpool (956 posts) - - Show Bio

@xxxddd: I see. Now that you mention it, seems I remember the same when Gillen was writing(?).

#42 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17154 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke: @killemall:

The Reigning is cannon and it was Earth 616, to moment when Thor cameback in time. Exactly as with Age of Ultron. Alternate Earth is one, that was created by jumps in time. THIS Earth was cancelled by time jumping. If it still exist, current one is closer to be alternate one. Either way - it was the future of E-616, until Thor choosed it not to be one.

#43 Posted by Fallschirmjager (16293 posts) - - Show Bio

Destroyer, because BFR is stupid.

#44 Posted by xxxddd (3572 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: Can only Asgardians use the armor? Because those have been the only beings I've seen occupy it.

#45 Posted by Killemall (18477 posts) - - Show Bio

@xxxddd: Nope anyone can used it. A doctor has used it in on occasion. Am army guy has used it in another. Maestro (future evil hulk) has used it in another.

I will be home in about 4 hrs if you co remind me I can post details as well as issue number and scans.

#46 Posted by xxxddd (3572 posts) - - Show Bio

@xxxddd: Nope anyone can used it. A doctor has used it in on occasion. Am army guy has used it in another. Maestro (future evil hulk) has used it in another.

I will be home in about 4 hrs if you co remind me I can post details as well as issue number and scans.

May you post them?

#47 Posted by dondave (35990 posts) - - Show Bio

Destroyer

#48 Posted by Killemall (18477 posts) - - Show Bio

@xxxddd said:

May you post them?

Thank you for the reminder, and sure lets go.

Mighty Thor # 224, Destroyer Armor is activated by the soul of Professor Charles Holmes

Mighty Thor # 447 Destroyer Armor is animated by 2 souls, one of Donald Blake and another of Graham, the Hell Wolf

Incredible Hulk # 461, Destroyer Armor was animated by the soul of Maestro (Hulk)

There are of course other instances as well, but i suppose this would do, specially considering this isnt on topic anyways.

#49 Posted by Experio (15130 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor.

#50 Posted by xxxddd (3572 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: Why can't Thor just keep the Destroyer guarded in Asgard? I mean, doesn't Asgard have a military and Odin?