Thor and Wonder Woman Vs. Gladiator and Black Adam

@eternityx:

1. Light travels at 186,000 miles per second not nanosecond.

My bad. There are 1,000,000 nanoseconds in a second, so it would've been travelling .186 miles per nanosecond, and that's far beyond the space between her and Amazo.

2. Average size of a planet >>>>> average size of a moon.

And we don't know that either of them were average sized.

3. Then most feats without numbers are baseless.

As far as how much was done sure, but they're impressive notheless.

4. I'm saying that Superman cannot punch through Space alone.

He did at least half the work.

5. No he didn't. Sentry caught him off guard.

He was actively fighting the avengers. If his guard wasn't up he'd be an idiot. And he hit him like, once.

6. Masteron Thor is far weaker and inexperienced, he still beat Gladiator and how exactly did living lightening help?

He called down Living Lightning who harmed Gladiator enough to beat him. Masterson was lolstomped before that.

I agree with other Thor fight description.

Then you know Gladiator>Thor.

7. It was still a weaker version of Hulk and he hurt Gladiator before he was weakened by the radiation.

Hulk was impressed by how well he tanked that blow and noted it did very little damage to him.

8. When did it say Hulk was weakened by Sentry's presence? Also, Hulk did not dominate the whole fight.

That was established previously in Sentrys own series. Sentrys aura calms him down which logically weakens him.

9. I agree, team 1 wins, but I don't think Diana can beat Gladiator.

She can. She has more and better feats in speed and skill which will let her avoid his blows and lasso incap him.

• The Amazo instance was her actually not holding back as she is now. I believe @ancient_0f_days can cite more instances where the lasso was her first move. I've seen her fight with Karan, and all Diana did was toss it at her. She didn't try to blitz her and wrap her with it like she did Amazo and Supergirl. Hell, she didn't even really try that with Billy and I doubt he would've reacted to it. As I've pointed out, she's tagged faster people than Clark and Billy with her Lasso.
• She was morals off, the line between that and bloodlusted tends to blur, but saying she violently wanted to kill genocide would be an understatement given the context, yet she kept a cool head. She was actively mind controlled in Underworld Unleashed and she isn't here.

@highaccuser:

• There's a difference between using her lasso (which I obviously am aware she's frequently used it) and using it as soon as the fight begins, though she has often changed the knot to be unescapable, etc, Karen dodged the lasso because she blitzed around it, I believe Saren posted the scan somewhere. And against Billy she was conflicted on whether to stop holding back, as he was mind-controlled, Billy was caught off guard
• There is a massive difference between morals off and bloodlust. A character could still fight with a calm state of mind yet still have no qualms of using lethal tactics or killing whatsoever, that's a morals-off form of attack. Being angry, doesn't really necessitate bloodlust, though it suggests the character is holding back less. Being bloodlust, usually refers to characters in a savage state of mind, as Superman was when he attacked Wonder Woman in Sacrifice, you're correct in that Wonder Woman was technically mind-controlled, however Neron wasn't controlling their every move, he had controlled them and then ordered them to attack Captain Marvel. A bloodlust would deplete Wonder Woman's technical skill and tactical ability, which plays into Adam's hand, she would be better suited to simply being 'no morals' against him rather than 'bloodlust' which works against her and the arguments which are often presented for her

@frozen said:

@evil_incarnate:

Just because it's been shown a number of times doesn't mean that the logic ever makes sense. Batman catches The Joker all the time and he gets sent to Arkham where he ALWAYS escapes and kills more people, but instead of the state killing him they just keep locking him up. It happens ALL the time so I guess to you that that logic makes sense?

Yeah, no - this example has no relevance/applicability to the debate in question. If it's been shown a dozen times then it can be used. The dogpile who overwhelmed Superman were overwhelming because all those Lanterns, etc are still written to be at powerhouse levels, Superboy Prime for instance, takes on alien dogpiles, that's how team-busting works, more often than not they are written to be dogpiles.

That dogpile had THREE people who are in Superman's weight class dogpile on him how does that equate to BA's, which had ONE person in his weight class who was instantly smacked away and a dozen or more with human level durability who attempted to engage him in a physical altercation and then were easily dispatched? If anything it's a feat for the dozen human level heroes. It's impressive that they were even able to attempt to dogpile on him, they were backhanded away as easily as they should have been, but why should this be considered an impressive feat for BA? And the only answer that you have is because it happened to other people before?

They were not three people at Superman's weight class - it consisted of Jay Garrick, Power Girl, Dr. Light, Guy Gardener and John Stewart. Green Lanterns being weak because they're 'human' is illogical. John Stewart's smacked around the Justice League and created planetary constructs, take another human Lantern - Kyle Rayner, who's created Solar System level contructs, and Jay Garrick, who's taken hits from Zoom himself; so much for 'human' huh? The fodder group that overwhelmed Superman also consisted of human Lanterns, yet they STILL overwhelmed him. You're acting as if these characters are street-levellers...

Thanos was dogpiled recently? By whom? Who did the Avengers consist of? Was Thor and Hulk there? Do you honestly think that the human level people there were using the same amount of strength as the superhuman ones that would somehow make it impressive that they were even there?

Why do you keep bringing up 'human level people'? Human Green Lanterns are MORE powerful more often than not based on FEATS. Jay Garrick, an Earth bound speedster/HUMAN has taken hits from Zoom and went toe-to-toe with powerhouses, those attacking Black Adam in the scan I posted were not street-levellers (though some street-levellers were present at other parts). It was suggested Thanos COULD have been weakened so there is that, he was attacked by an Avengers dogpile consisting of notable powerhouses such as Thor, Hulk, Red Hulk.

In your scan with BA fighting the JSA you have ONE person using any of their energy based powers and even then it's used as a chain in an attempt to restrain him everyone else is engaging him in physical combat and the majority are vastly below his level physically.

In the scans, Jay Garrick attempts to blitzes him but fails and Adam times his KO punch, Power Girl gets taken out quickly and Alan Scott is taken out. That's TWO people using their power, though I don't see the relevance, alas you can see below.

Gallery

Oh he one shotted Alan Scott? Is Alan Scott now physically the rival of Mr. Majestic or does he have the physical attributes of a human and happens to have a magical ring?

Again, human Lanterns are more notable - Mon El had a Lantern Ring and he lacks the feats to be put above Hal Jordan, the human Lanterns such as Hal, Kyle, Guy, Alan and John have better feats. John Stewart's smacked around the JLA yet he's only 'human'? I mean, come on...

Alan was also USING his ring in question so how is it relevant? He used his power.

These are not only impressive, but the fact that you would use the fact that other have been dogpiled is a lame excuse for the simple reason that every dogpile isn't the same. How can you tell anyone that a dogpile that consists of three Superman level beings are equal to one that consists of one Superman level being and a bunch of human level people?

Obviously the people dogpiling have to be noted - the people dogpiling Adam consisted of two top-tier Green Lanterns, one Earth 2 Kryptonian (Power Girl), Dr. Light and Jay Garrick, these are POWERHOUSES - what I'm saying is that powerhouses such as human Lanterns, etc will be written to be overwhelming/powerful in dogpiles, rather than someone like Batman who is clearly a street-leveller.

Case in point below, the JSA consisting of a few powerhouses attempt to dogpile KC Superman (the increased gravity too).

Gallery

I'm not sure what you don't understand. The reason I bring up "human level" durability and strength is because they PHYSICALLY ATTACKED HIM WITH NO POWERS is Kyle or Hal's PHYSICAL strength or durability on par with Superman, Black Adam, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, etc? NO they aren't so then why should anyone be impressed that BA was able to swat them away when they ONLY CAME AT HIM PHYSICALLY with no known or visible physical amps? Furthermore when I was talking about the three Superman level beings I was referring to the Superman dogpile scan which consisted of Power Girl, Martian Manhunter and Kilowag vs the BA scan which only had Power Girl.

Kyle created a solar system? Nice! What does that have to do with his PHYSICAL attributes? When Flashes take blows from Superman level being they're not full blows or they use their speed to help compensate the impact of the blow. Are Kyle or Hal physically stronger or more durable than Batman?

Alan used his ring DEFENSIVELY. He wasn't hitting BA with constructs or energy blasts he was using chains to try to limit his movement Adam broke free and blitzed a few people who aren't on his physical level, fought PG who is the only one here who can PHYSICALLY compete with him, but tosses her nonetheless, gets blitzed by Jay, but manages to get a hit and of course one was all he needed because Jay ISN'T ON HIS LEVEL PHYSICALLY.

We have about 20 heroes who attacked a being who is a rival of Superman in his PHYSICAL ATTRIBUTE department I.E. STRENGTH, DURABILITY AND SPEED. Out of these 20 or so heroes ONLY 3 chose to use their powers one defensively (Alan), and two offensively (PG & Jay). The rest chose to PHYSICALLY take on a Superman level being when their physical attributes aren't even close to his. Why is it then impressive that he was able to beat so many of them when the majority didn't use their powers?

Now to poke hole in you KC Superman scan.

!. It clearly say that he increased his WEIGHT by a hundredfold not the gravity around him, which if he did would have caused such people as Jay, Hawkman, etc pain as they aren't strong enough to survive such a feat.

2. Alan once again as in his BA feat only uses chains to try to hold him down.

3. PG was there and is the only being in his PHYSICAL weight class.

4. And this is the most important part he still gets away.

So where was he almost beaten? Being pushed to the ground = being beaten?

Team 1

• This may be true, but even if she doesn't use it right off the bat, she'll certainly use it eventually after taking a few hits. I've seen the scan, and Wonder Woman wasn't using the lasso in more effective ways than just tossing it like rushing aroung Karan in a blitz and wrapping her up.
• I'm starting to wonder if you're right here. I remember Gladiator losing to black cloak due to being reckless and bloodlusted. This kind of comes down to a debate as to weather she was bloodlusted against genocide or not. Considering all the crap genocide put her through, I'd say she was. I'm glad you brought up sacrifice. Despite being bloodlusted and not thinking straight, Superman was able to dodge Diana's lasso, and he didn't even know he was fighting someone who had a lasso then. Mind control and in character bloodlust aren't the same, so using the Neron instance doesn't work in your favor here.

@evil_incarnate:

I'm not sure what you don't understand. The reason I bring up "human level" durability and strength is because they PHYSICALLY ATTACKED HIM WITH NO POWERS is Kyle or Hal's PHYSICAL strength or durability on par with Superman, Black Adam, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, etc? NO they aren't so then why should anyone be impressed that BA was able to swat them away when they ONLY CAME AT HIM PHYSICALLY with no known or visible physical amps? Furthermore when I was talking about the three Superman level beings I was referring to the Superman dogpile scan which consisted of Power Girl, Martian Manhunter and Kilowag vs the BA scan which only had Power Girl.

You're acting as if Hal, Kyle, John, etc are powerless - by your logic, a single punch from Superman or Martian Manhunter would kill any human Lantern..which simply isn't true. Human Lanterns have went toe-to-toe with Superman level characters, do you honestly think they run the risk of getting one-shotted? John Stewart briefly took on The Justice League too, a human Lantern. The BA scan doesn't only have Power Girl, it has Jay Garrick who actually went toe-to-toe with Black Adam in their very first encounter and has taken hits from Zoom, and two Green Lanterns. The human Lanterns have POWER on par with Superman level beings. You're course of argument has become ''These Green Lanterns are human. Therefore they have no chance against Black Adam'' if they're only seen flying (which the RING is granting) towards him which makes no sense whatsoever, Hal, another human Lantern withstood a blast as hot as The Sun, clearly out of human jurisdiction. Despero has KO'd Guy Gardener yet not killed him, and Guy is a human, should humans have survived Despero's attacks by your logic? I mean, to say the human Lanterns who have superhuman FEATS are not applicable is ridiculous, they are MORE powerful and notable than Power Girl.

And also, Power Girl did not attack Superman in the dog-pile scan, or at-least she isn't really involved.

Kyle created a solar system?

*Solar System construct.

Nice! What does that have to do with his PHYSICAL attributes?

It speaks power. That's how powerful Lanterns are. Those are the feats we gauge their power from.

When Flashes take blows from Superman level being they're not full blows or they use their speed to help compensate the impact of the blow.

In some sense, yet Jay Garrick, the slowest Flash tanked a punch from Zoom and that's certainly out of human capability.

Are Kyle or Hal physically stronger or more durable than Batman?

Yes. Because Lanterns have went toe-to-toe and withstood attacks from top-tier powerhouses.

Alan used his ring DEFENSIVELY. He wasn't hitting BA with constructs or energy blasts he was using chains to try to limit his movement Adam

That's not defensively - that's OFFENSIVELY. Just as Wonder Woman using her lasso is an offensive maneuver, Alan's chains were used for offensive purposes, which is why he attacked Adam in an attempt to stop him, that's Alan USING his ring. Also, you are referring to the BLACK REIGN scans right? NOT the WW3 scans.

gets blitzed by Jay, but manages to get a hit and of course one was all he needed because Jay ISN'T ON HIS LEVEL PHYSICALLY.

Jay is physically a powerhouse. In his first fight he was beating Black Adam with punches, and again, he's tanked hits from Zoom, he clearly is above human level and you're selling hm short to say the least.

We have about 20 heroes who attacked a being who is a rival of Superman in his PHYSICAL ATTRIBUTE department I.E. STRENGTH, DURABILITY AND SPEED. Out of these 20 or so heroes ONLY 3 chose to use their powers one defensively (Alan), and two offensively (PG & Jay). The rest chose to PHYSICALLY take on a Superman level being when their physical attributes aren't even close to his. Why is it then impressive that he was able to beat so many of them when the majority didn't use their powers?

Barring street-levellers, etc, those powerhouses ARE physically powerful - human Green Lanterns have overwhelmed other powerhouses with the SAME tactics, yet by YOUR logic they should not? Despite the fact that comic books more often than not characterize human Green Lanterns to be top-tier powerhouses. The majority in the Superman dogpile did not even remotely use power, hell Power Girl barely attacked him and many of them fodderized Superman, many of the teams who Superboy Prime take on, form dogpiles.

!. It clearly say that he increased his WEIGHT by a hundredfold not the gravity around him, which if he did would have caused such people as Jay, Hawkman, etc pain as they aren't strong enough to survive such a feat.

The gravity was increased a hundredfold on KC Superman to increase HIS weight - though it would only make him heavier by a few thousand pounds, the rest were not affected, it was KC Superman who had his own weight increased.

2. Alan once again as in his BA feat only uses chains to try to hold him down.

You're back tracking, first you demand they use energy constructs and when Alan uses it, it no longer counts?

3. PG was there and is the only being in his PHYSICAL weight class.

Again, no - Alan Scott and Jay Garrick are in his weight class, you're taking a very one-dimensional view of looking at powerhouses/powersets.

4. And this is the most important part he still gets away.

Which I acknowledged.

So where was he almost beaten? Being pushed to the ground = being beaten?

No, he was straining until he was able to muster the force to get away to save a girl.

• She may, but due to morals/bloodlust she may be more inclined to fight differently
• I'll read the Genocide fight to make judgement, however was it overtly shown she was bloodlusted or simply angry/aggressive? And Superman is arguably faster than Wonder Woman in perception, that's why he could dodge it but regardless, if your mind control comment holds true then it's applicable to Captain Marvel fight, as Captain Marvel was mind-controlled against Wonder Woman yet that fight is still often cited

Team 1

You ppl do realize this is Thor with warrior madness ? He might just take out all 3

lol

Team 2, Pre 52 Wonder Woman doesn't have a sword as standard equipment.

With her Atom Divider, I give it to team 2 for a much smaller majority.