Thor and Loki vs. Dante and Vergil

1. No. Cyclops's beam and the lightning were literally going at Deadpool who was mid air before he disappeared. He'd have no way to aim dodge that. Same with Blade, the laser was shot at him and he wasn't even looking at the guy really when he dodged it. And Cyclops's kinetic force beam is actually stated lightspeed, which is why I used it.

So can you show me where Cyclop's kinetic force beam was said to be lightspeed?

2. What? He made ice that could trap and hold Mjolnir you know the planet busting, possibly star busting hammer? How in any way is that minor? And how does that NOT put down Dante who has no resistance to ice.

No, that could definitely work. Ya know, if Loki was fast enough to tag him with it.

And ya know, If Dante didn't just reflect it back with Royal Guard.

3. He MOVED and escaped an attack/prison BEFORE a nanosecond was up. That's combat/reaction speeds of FTL. It's even stated.

He broke out of futuristic handcuffs, lets not go overboard here.

I can break a toothpick in under a second, but it doesn't mean I have sub-second reaction speeds.

2nd Scan has nothing to do with Cosmic Awareness. He literally flew around the world and searched every inch of it before Dr. Strange finished speaking. So wrong again. Both are examples of FTL speed in combat/reactions.

He flew around the world, using his Cosmic Awareness to help him with the search. That's travel speed, and barely FTL in the first place. I already know he has FTL travel speed, but he doesn't have anywhere near FTL reaction speed.

2. These are rules everyone follows or everything in every fiction ever is 100% speculative. Who says 1 second in DMC is 1 second in the real word? who says lightning isn't half the speed of bullets in DMC world? etc. etc. a bunch of dumb stuff

4. Yes let's compare Dante's destruction to Loki's skyfather+ level durability. Oh and the fact that Loki's stated to planet bust+ levels. Please do.

You have offered no proof that these are rules anyone follows other than your self, your just claiming they are. You have offered ZERO reason to believe that a Blitz that transforms into lightning and moves around in that form in a lightning like fashion is slower than lightning other than rules that apparently everyone follows without offering any kind proof that anyone other than your self follows them. You haven't shown me some comicvine thread with everyone agreeing on it. You haven't offered proof from Dante's universe that it wouldn't make sense for the Blitz to be lightning speed like a normal peak human doing the same as Dante and keeping up with the Blitz's movements (something that normally disproves a lasers speed in fiction). Your just saying "These are the rules, accept them" and that is literally the worst argument I've ever heard in any debate ever.

One Loki doesn't have Skyfather plus durability. Loki has gotten stomped by any Skyfather level Enemy (like Odin or Galactus). Loki has worse durability than Standard Thor, by a lot, and Thor has been hurt by People like Savage Hulk (at relative low levels of anger) and Wolverine so don't give me that crap. Planet busting durability? Sure, fine that's cool. Dante HAS Skyfather+ Attack power. He is capable of slicing thru dimensional Barriers with Yamato, as is Vergil, and he has actually Beaten Skyfather level beings like Mundus, Argosax(in cluding Despair Embodied, a concept level being) and harming the Savoir a being that was running off the power of Sparda who is demonstrably more powerful than Mundus and Argosax. If the Hulk at Base can fuck up Loki Dante sure as hell can.

you know what my problem is. It isn't that you think Loki and Thor win. It's that you are so blind to the capabilities of Dante and Vergil because they fit your extremely arbitrary set of rules for being a powerful fictional character (which I suspect has less to do with their capabilities and more to do with you not liking them compared to Comic Book characters )to think they aren't even a challenge. I really don't care if you think they lose, it just boggles my mind you think it's stomp.

Jmarshmallow

1. Those are the rules everyone follows. It's your problem if you don't follow them or comprehend why they are followed.

2. Loki has taken attacks from the best of skyfathers, he's been said equal to skyfather Dormmmu, he fodderized Galactus's shields/barrier to keep Surfer on Earth, he turned Skyfather Bor to snow, entered Skyfather Odin's mind, and tricked Skyfather Odin many times. Even thor has taken on skyfathers have won.

3. Dante has barely mid tier attacking power aka nuke level, and he doesn't even have that. Slicing through dimensional barriers isn't close to skyfather and Mundus, nor anyone you named is close to skyfather or even top tier. And Hulk can't hurt Loki and would kill Dante, Mundus, etc. in onepunch.

I know how strong Dante is, problem is you don't. you overrate him to a ridiculous level and get your feelings hurt when he's brought down to reality. Reality that he can't beat Iron Man nonetheless Thor and Loki.

1.

Well alright then! Can't argue with that! Deadpool and Blade are clearly FTL. But that's an argument for a different day.

2. Loki has proven to not only be faster than Dante, but tag faster people.

I disagree. Dante has outraced light, toyed with a character who's lightning fast, outraced lightning, his battle with Vergil had their swords swinging so fast that they literally stopped rain drops from falling around them, etc

The only time Loki tags "faster people" is when they're not utilizing their full speed.

Also you can't reflect back ice. It's not a beam or a projectile, it appears around you.

Loki won't get the chance to use that, and if he does Dante just breaks out of it.

Plus royal Guard has no feats of reflecting or blocking anything that powerful

Royal Guard just reflects an opponents energy back at them. There's not really a limit to that, it just depends on the energy/power of the opponent.

3. Um...yes it does. If you can do and react to ANYTHING in under a second...you have sub second reactions. Most humans do. And breaking out of restraints takes A LOT of reaction speed to do in UNDER a nanosecond.

But those "reactions" aren't really applicable in combat. Even if most people have sub second reactions, they couldn't block punches and kicks coming at them in sub second speeds.

The second one is travel+reaction since to search for someone you have to be able to thoroughly look for them, turn your head, see at that speed with your eyes. Duh.

Except not, cuz Cosmic Awareness. Duh.

@darkraiden said:

1.

Well alright then! Can't argue with that! Deadpool and Blade are clearly FTL. But that's an argument for a different day.

2. Loki has proven to not only be faster than Dante, but tag faster people.

I disagree. Dante has outraced light, toyed with a character who's lightning fast, outraced lightning, his battle with Vergil had their swords swinging so fast that they literally stopped rain drops from falling around them, etc

The only time Loki tags "faster people" is when they're not utilizing their full speed.

Also you can't reflect back ice. It's not a beam or a projectile, it appears around you.

Loki won't get the chance to use that, and if he does Dante just breaks out of it.

Plus royal Guard has no feats of reflecting or blocking anything that powerful

Royal Guard just reflects an opponents energy back at them. There's not really a limit to that, it just depends on the energy/power of the opponent.

3. Um...yes it does. If you can do and react to ANYTHING in under a second...you have sub second reactions. Most humans do. And breaking out of restraints takes A LOT of reaction speed to do in UNDER a nanosecond.

But those "reactions" aren't really applicable in combat. Even if most people have sub second reactions, they couldn't block punches and kicks coming at them in sub second speeds.

The second one is travel+reaction since to search for someone you have to be able to thoroughly look for them, turn your head, see at that speed with your eyes. Duh.

Except not, cuz Cosmic Awareness. Duh.

Jmarshmallow

Um...hold up. If Deadpool and Blade are FTL....that would make everyone who fights evenly with them FTL. Which would go full cirlce to Thor and Loki who's too fast for Thor. So...we have to address it.

Nope, because just because they're FTL doesn't mean that they use that speed on every single occasion.

2. Dante has no speed feats on the level of anything past double digit machs. And the rain drops one isn't that fast.

Except for, ya know, outracing light.

3. Loki used it at the speed of thought.

Speed of light > Speed of thought.

He'll get to use it. Plus he can go intangible,

Yamato is able to cut through anything, which would include intangibility.

is faster than Dante,

Incorrect sir!

and Dante can't put him down.

I disagree. Dante has a lot of options.

4. Wrong blocking and reflecting ALWAYS has a limit. It's whatever the strongest attack it's ever reflected. Otherwise it's a NLF, which is a fallacy.

Not really. Because it's like Akido, you use your opponents weight back at them. There's not really a "limit" to it, as the idea is that you're not really doing anything besides giving them back what they gave you.

5. Yes you can block punches that reach you in sub second range. That's called every fight ever.

Lol most people can't. That's why people get knocked out.

6. He didn't use cosmic awareness. Cosmic awareness doesn't have range, he wouldn't need to fly around the world to use it. That's now how it works. He clearly used FTL reaction speeds.

He flew around the world, and scanned using Cosmic Awareness.

If it truly didn't have range, then why wouldn't he have just been like "Nope, I can find em! And I checked using my Cosmic Awareness!"

Jmarshmallow

1. Yes it does. Especially when they complement people on being too fast.

SCANS GOOD SIR.

2. again he never outraced light. Just an unmeasured energy blast

It's not unmeasured, it's a blast of light. Plain and simple.

3. Yamato can't cut through intangibility unless you have proof of it doing so.

My proof is that it can cut through anything. That's what the game description says, which is canon.

Also you can't beat Loki by cutting him.

And why not?!?!

4. Prove it. show Dante's options to hurt the guy who survives headless and can take attacks from Skyfathers

The same options that hurt Mundus, who was a powerful Demon Lord who was able to create his own pocket dimension.

5. Most people can actually. Boxers punches go far past sub second and they're still blocked for the most part, the punches that get through are the ones that KO. the way you're talking, everything would be 1st round KOs.

Boxers aren't "most people" for one, and second, boxers don't really even block hits.

They just put up their fists, and their opponent pretty much keeps jabbing until they finally break through. They don't really do the "punch/block with hand/punch again/block again" action that you see in kung fu movies.

Although, certain martial arts do that. However, most people aren't up to that speed.

6. He didn't use ANY cosmic awareness. Because it doesn't work that way. Plus he simply didn't use it. Cosmic Awareness has been used on a universal level before.

I don't see why you think it makes more sense for SS to search the entire planet the old fashioned way when he has Cosmic Awareness. You know, that special skill that comes in handy for situations EXACTLY like this!

Jmarshmallow

1. Nah that's common knowledge. Wolverine has outsped Deadpool and matched him in speed. He's also dodged Cyclops's blasts, he's also fought pretty evenly with the likes of Hulk and Thor, both of whom are too slow to hit Loki. Which would make him FTL.

"Nope, because just because they're FTL doesn't mean that they use that speed on every single occasion."

2. Blasts of light aren't all lightspeed. that's a fact

If it's light, it's lightspeed. That's a fact.

3. cut through anything doesn't mean intangibility actually. Never has. It means what you CAN touch you can cut through. Plus you need feats to prove that, which thee aren't any. Or again, it's a NLF. So again wrong.

It's a pretty clear statement. It can cut through anything. Easy peasy.

4. Mundus sucks and has no durability. Loki can survive beig headless and bodyless and take punches that shatter mountains and blasts from galaxy busting skyfathers like nothing. Meanwhile Mundus has no feats to say he can even survive a hit from Hulk.

Mundus survived his first battle with Sparda with only a massive wound to show for it. Shrug off most of Dante's attacks, while amped I may add. That's pretty dang durable.

5. Putting your arms in the way is literally blocking. Boxers also dodge. And in regular fights, people dodge and block all the time. And punches are still sub second and always will be.

Putting your hands up before your opponent even starts punching and letting them nail you isn't blocking.

6. Because he literally said what he did and didn't mention cosmic awareness at all. everytime he uses cosmic awareness it's pretty obvious. this was not one of these times. I'll believe Surfer himself over you.

You THINK that every time he uses Cosmic Awareness that he mentions it on panel. How do you know this is the case?

Jmarshmallow