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#1 Posted by mikemaximum (795 posts) - - Show Bio

The Avengers and X-Men are on separate missions to rescue/assassinate the Scarlet Witch (who is in a coma and cannot partake in the battle). The Avengers and X-Men eventually clash and both sides aim to take each other out.

First round- fight until one team is KO'd or submits; morals on.

Second round- fight to the death, no morals.

Avengers: Captain America, Hercules, Black Knight, Vision, Sersi, Crystal and Thor

VS

X-Men: Rachel Grey, Wolverine, Storm, Colossnaut, Nightcrawler and Rogue (Ms. Marvel powers)

Citizen Kang
Rachel Summers
Powerfull Colossus
Nightcrawler by Sean Chen
#2 Posted by New_World_Order (13235 posts) - - Show Bio

Avengers.

#3 Posted by robertloucksjr (1750 posts) - - Show Bio

@ThunderGodsWrath said:

Avengers.

Agreed. Thor and Herc are arguably the toughest here. Sersei might be 4th after Collossonaut.

#4 Posted by New_World_Order (13235 posts) - - Show Bio

@robertloucksjr said:

@ThunderGodsWrath said:

Avengers.

Agreed. Thor and Herc are arguably the toughest here. Sersei might be 4th after Collossonaut.

Yep

#5 Posted by Shawnbaby (10789 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1: Avengers. Forget Thor and Herc..Vision is the real game changer here.

Round 2: X-men. Rachel can Mindwipe the majority of The Avengers

#6 Posted by ChaosBlazer (3930 posts) - - Show Bio

@ThunderGodsWrath said:

Avengers.

yep

#7 Posted by charlieboy (7160 posts) - - Show Bio

This version of Thor is Eric Masterson who doesn't have anywhere near the feats that Thor has. Not to mention Rachel fought the real Thor pretty well during AvX. Colossus is going to be a real contender. Not to mention Rogue who actually has beat the real Thor and Vision before in Avengers Annual 10. I don't really see Vision being a big problem. Storm can emp him. Rachel has molecular tk. I think the X-men got this.

#8 Posted by New_World_Order (13235 posts) - - Show Bio

@charlieboy said:

This version of Thor is Eric Masterson who doesn't have anywhere near the feats that Thor has. Not to mention Rachel fought the real Thor pretty well during AvX. Colossus is going to be a real contender. Not to mention Rogue who actually has beat the real Thor and Vision before in Avengers Annual 10. I don't really see Vision being a big problem. Storm can emp him. Rachel has molecular tk. I think the X-men got this.

AvX was full of crap. They had Spider-Man pretty much trick, and tank blows from Phoenix Force Colossusanut, and Magik.

Rogue beating Thor, and Vision? This is something I have to see. Storm will get T/P by Sersi.

#9 Posted by charlieboy (7160 posts) - - Show Bio

@ThunderGodsWrath: Rachel has shown much more telepathic skill than Sersi. Rachel is an omega level mutant. No reason she can't take on Thor. Rogue absorbed Thor her first appearance and also did it again in the Vs. Mephisto series. She beat Vision the same issue after draining Thor. It was in Avengers annual ten. Rachel could drop most of this team with Her tp. The only one that might be left standing after her psi attack might be Sersi if she manages to defend herself.

#10 Posted by New_World_Order (13235 posts) - - Show Bio

@charlieboy said:

@ThunderGodsWrath: Rachel has shown much more telepathic skill than Sersi. Rachel is an omega level mutant. No reason she can't take on Thor. Rogue absorbed Thor her first appearance and also did it again in the Vs. Mephisto series. She beat Vision the same issue after draining Thor. It was in Avengers annual ten. Rachel could drop most of this team with Her tp. The only one that might be left standing after her psi attack might be Sersi if she manages to defend herself.

Didn't say Rachel can't beat Thor. You need to know that no one here can beat a morals off Thor, on yes, off no.

#11 Posted by Strman123 (193 posts) - - Show Bio

I can see the Avengers winning.

#12 Posted by charlieboy (7160 posts) - - Show Bio

@ThunderGodsWrath: A morals off Rachel can do some damage too. I wouldn't underestimate her. Omega level tp and Omega level tk on the molecular level can do some nasty things. Not to mention Rogue can beat Thor with one touch if she wants.

#13 Posted by robertloucksjr (1750 posts) - - Show Bio

@charlieboy said:

@ThunderGodsWrath: Rachel has shown much more telepathic skill than Sersi. Rachel is an omega level mutant. No reason she can't take on Thor. Rogue absorbed Thor her first appearance and also did it again in the Vs. Mephisto series. She beat Vision the same issue after draining Thor. It was in Avengers annual ten. Rachel could drop most of this team with Her tp. The only one that might be left standing after her psi attack might be Sersi if she manages to defend herself.

Phoenix Emma could not TP rape Thor, what makes you think Rachel can?

#14 Posted by New_World_Order (13235 posts) - - Show Bio

@charlieboy: This is a morals off Thor

@robertloucksjr said:

@charlieboy said:

@ThunderGodsWrath: Rachel has shown much more telepathic skill than Sersi. Rachel is an omega level mutant. No reason she can't take on Thor. Rogue absorbed Thor her first appearance and also did it again in the Vs. Mephisto series. She beat Vision the same issue after draining Thor. It was in Avengers annual ten. Rachel could drop most of this team with Her tp. The only one that might be left standing after her psi attack might be Sersi if she manages to defend herself.

Phoenix Emma could not TP rape Thor, what makes you think Rachel can?

Yeah, how can she? Phoenix Force Emma couldn't

#15 Posted by charlieboy (7160 posts) - - Show Bio

@robertloucksjr: I don't necessarily think Rachel can beat the real Thor telepathically. Her telekinetics are going to give him hell though. Also the "Thor" pictured here is Eric Masterson. There is no reason to think she couldn't use tp on him.

#16 Posted by charlieboy (7160 posts) - - Show Bio

@ThunderGodsWrath: This isn't the real Thor.

#17 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4143 posts) - - Show Bio

Since Nighcrawler is pretty religious, would things he does with morals off be pure speculation? and if so what's stopping him from teleporting heads off at the word go? He's actually threatened to do it before (probably just to scare Barnacle). Something tells me not even Thor can survive that.

#18 Posted by dondave (37551 posts) - - Show Bio

@robertloucksjr: @ThunderGodsWrath:Charles Xavier took him down quite easily, even Red Skull who probably doesn't have as much skill as Charles did was able to telepathically control Thor, being Morals Off doesn't suddenly give him a resistance to Telepathy

#19 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4143 posts) - - Show Bio

@robertloucksjr said:

@charlieboy said:

@ThunderGodsWrath: Rachel has shown much more telepathic skill than Sersi. Rachel is an omega level mutant. No reason she can't take on Thor. Rogue absorbed Thor her first appearance and also did it again in the Vs. Mephisto series. She beat Vision the same issue after draining Thor. It was in Avengers annual ten. Rachel could drop most of this team with Her tp. The only one that might be left standing after her psi attack might be Sersi if she manages to defend herself.

Phoenix Emma could not TP rape Thor, what makes you think Rachel can?

Rachel rarely attacks telepathically anyway, she mostly tks things. Morals off she is a killer from the future that hunted her own family. WIth morals she can compress matter to form micro blackholes, morals off she could put that into his head instead of her thoughts.

#20 Posted by charlieboy (7160 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans: I wouldn't say Rachel rarely uses her telepathy. She does favor her tk for sure though.

#21 Posted by God_Spawn (37903 posts) - - Show Bio

@robertloucksjr said:

@charlieboy said:

@ThunderGodsWrath: Rachel has shown much more telepathic skill than Sersi. Rachel is an omega level mutant. No reason she can't take on Thor. Rogue absorbed Thor her first appearance and also did it again in the Vs. Mephisto series. She beat Vision the same issue after draining Thor. It was in Avengers annual ten. Rachel could drop most of this team with Her tp. The only one that might be left standing after her psi attack might be Sersi if she manages to defend herself.

Phoenix Emma could not TP rape Thor, what makes you think Rachel can?

Because Thor has been effected by telepathy plenty of times to the point someone Emma's caliber with the PF should be able to effect him? Especially to the point he isn't just shrugging it off...

Moderator
#22 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4143 posts) - - Show Bio

@ThunderGodsWrath said:

@charlieboy: This is a morals off Thor

@robertloucksjr said:

@charlieboy said:

@ThunderGodsWrath: Rachel has shown much more telepathic skill than Sersi. Rachel is an omega level mutant. No reason she can't take on Thor. Rogue absorbed Thor her first appearance and also did it again in the Vs. Mephisto series. She beat Vision the same issue after draining Thor. It was in Avengers annual ten. Rachel could drop most of this team with Her tp. The only one that might be left standing after her psi attack might be Sersi if she manages to defend herself.

Phoenix Emma could not TP rape Thor, what makes you think Rachel can?

Yeah, how can she? Phoenix Force Emma couldn't

I thought you said AVX was full of crap? I would certainly count Phoenix Emmas telepathy being ineffective against anybody the height of crap. Her body was weaker than his before the Phoenix, but with it she was able to beat him physically, so if her mind is weaker than his without the Phoenix (due to him being a god or whatever) then why would her mind not get the same boost her body got especially considering the amount of telepathic power she has without Phoenix?

#23 Posted by charlieboy (7160 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: I thought that was a bit inconsistent myself. They really just did not want Emma dropping Thor in like two seconds was my guess.

#24 Posted by Madame_Blossom (692 posts) - - Show Bio

Sersi was able to stand toe to toe with Exodus in telepathy, the very same feat shared with Emma. Emma even bested Rachel and what not. ABC logic?

#25 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4143 posts) - - Show Bio

@charlieboy said:

@LordOfAllHumans: I wouldn't say Rachel rarely uses her telepathy. She does favor her tk for sure though.

I'm not saying she doesn't use it, just that there are not many instances I can think of when Rachels decided to attack teleapthically when compared to her using tk to attack.

#26 Posted by God_Spawn (37903 posts) - - Show Bio

@charlieboy: I know Thor can resist telepathy but he straight up no sold it in that issue, so I think that is pretty obvious that they wanted to prolong it. Same with that Psylocke vs Daredevil fight when they had DD's enhanced senses make him immune to telepathy? Thor still got stomped eventually and I think the primary focus of that issue was definitely showing off how powerful the P5 got even physically.

Moderator
#27 Posted by charlieboy (7160 posts) - - Show Bio

@Madame_Blossom: That was before Rachel absorbed Professor X's knowledge on how to use telepathy. Rachel is far more skilled now than she was in that fight with Emma.

#28 Posted by Madame_Blossom (692 posts) - - Show Bio

@charlieboy: What good has it done her? She couldn't even stand against Oracle who is basically an average telepath from the looks of it who got thrown around by the cuckoos.

#29 Posted by charlieboy (7160 posts) - - Show Bio

@Madame_Blossom: I haven't read that issue. What comic is that from?

#30 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4143 posts) - - Show Bio

@Madame_Blossom said:

Sersi was able to stand toe to toe with Exodus in telepathy, the very same feat shared with Emma. Emma even bested Rachel and what not. ABC logic?

Sersi and Exodus did not battle telepathically if you are talking about Genosha, the fight needed to be stopped because it was doing more damage than the rebles which would suggest it was her energy powers vs his tk, the nature of his powers being psionic was mentioned but telepathy would not cause damage to the island around them suggesting it was all physical.

Emma did not beat Rachel due to power, it was purely skill that Emma had over Rachel and this should have been fixed with Emma teaching Rachel the same techniques and her downloading of Xaviers skills in Shi'ar space.

#31 Posted by Madame_Blossom (692 posts) - - Show Bio

@charlieboy: The Rise and Fall arc, when Xavier lead the team in pursuit against the Vulcan or from X-Men or X-Men Emperor Vulcan. one of those two I'm certain....

#32 Posted by charlieboy (7160 posts) - - Show Bio

@Madame_Blossom: I read that but I don't remember Oracle beating Rachel.

#33 Posted by Madame_Blossom (692 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans: I could of sworn she battled him telepathically. Telepath, Psylocke, has been known to effect physical objects with her telepathically.

I didn't say she beat Rachel due to power, I only mentioned she bested Rachel.

#34 Posted by Madame_Blossom (692 posts) - - Show Bio

@charlieboy: I didn't say that. I only mentioned she couldn't stand against Oracle as in bypassing her mental shields. The two were not in direct conflict, but with the given skill and power as an omega level telepath she should of had no problems in piercing's Oracles shields.

#35 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4143 posts) - - Show Bio

@Madame_Blossom said:

@charlieboy: The Rise and Fall arc, when Xavier lead the team in pursuit against the Vulcan or from X-Men or X-Men Emperor Vulcan. one of those two I'm certain....

What makes you call Oracle an "average telepath" she's part of the Imperial Guard they are the elite something tells me they don't let "average telepaths" in. If she gave Rachel problems like you said then there is no way she could be average anyway due to Rachel being such a powerful telepath herself. Cuckoos are also very gifted telepaths even Jean commented on that, so getting thown around by them is not a low feat that makes a telepath average.

#36 Posted by charlieboy (7160 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans: Not to mention that the Cuckoo's are a group of telepaths.

#37 Posted by New_World_Order (13235 posts) - - Show Bio

@charlieboy said:

@ThunderGodsWrath: This isn't the real Thor.

LOL, what do you mean?

#38 Posted by charlieboy (7160 posts) - - Show Bio

@ThunderGodsWrath: That is Eric Masterson not the real Thor. I thought you were a Thor fan. You don't know who Eric Masterson is?

#39 Posted by Madame_Blossom (692 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@Madame_Blossom said:

@charlieboy: The Rise and Fall arc, when Xavier lead the team in pursuit against the Vulcan or from X-Men or X-Men Emperor Vulcan. one of those two I'm certain....

What makes you call Oracle an "average telepath" she's part of the Imperial Guard they are the elite something tells me they don't let "average telepaths" in. If she gave Rachel problems like you said then there is no way she could be average anyway due to Rachel being such a powerful telepath herself. Cuckoos are also very gifted telepaths even Jean commented on that, so getting thown around by them is not a low feat that makes a telepath average.

It doesn't matter if they're elite or not, she still doesn't compare to other telepaths, which is why I called her average, she is pale against her Earth resident telepath. So if a lesser skilled telepath compared to those on Earth gives Rachel a problem then Sersi herself can defiantly hold her own against her, I mean given with her immense power and telepathy. Yes we are all aware of that, I was mentioning that Oracle is considerably weaker than them, if she manages to block Rachel then why not the cuckoos, being that Rachel is omega level.

#40 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4143 posts) - - Show Bio

@Madame_Blossom said:

@LordOfAllHumans: I could of sworn she battled him telepathically. Telepath, Psylocke, has been known to effect physical objects with her telepathically.

I didn't say she beat Rachel due to power, I only mentioned she bested Rachel.

What physical objects has she affected? He does mention the pain tearing her consciousness or something like that, but they still seemed to be attacking with physical powers, to much physical destruction to be telepathic or I would guess the Grey home and most of the neighborhood would have been leveled from Dark Phoenix and Xaviers telepathic duel. She questions him about the nature of his power being psionic, my guess is she would have no need to deduce or mention this if they were fighting telepathically, it would be obvious.

I only mentioned it because you used Seris and Exodus in the post which would suggest you were comparing power level, forgive my assumption.

#41 Posted by God_Spawn (37903 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans: Just for my own refreshment; Rachel did not have the PF at the time of her and Emma's fight. IIRC the Phoenix was like an homage to Jean or just a symbol on Rachel because her powers manifested themselves that way or something. Correctish?

Moderator
#42 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4143 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

@LordOfAllHumans: Just for my own refreshment; Rachel did not have the PF at the time of her and Emma's fight. IIRC the Phoenix was like an homage to Jean or just a symbol on Rachel because her powers manifested themselves that way or something. Correctish?

Correct

#43 Posted by God_Spawn (37903 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans: Alright. Thank you.

Moderator
#44 Posted by charlieboy (7160 posts) - - Show Bio

@Madame_Blossom: Well the Cuckoo's are powerful individually. So as a group I can see them beating Oracle. Didn't Oracle counter Jean's telepathy a during the Phoenix saga? Also I believe Rachel prevented Exodus from attacking the X-men telepathically when he fought Rogue's team in X-men Legacy last year.

#45 Posted by Madame_Blossom (692 posts) - - Show Bio

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@Madame_Blossom said:

@LordOfAllHumans: I could of sworn she battled him telepathically. Telepath, Psylocke, has been known to effect physical objects with her telepathically.

I didn't say she beat Rachel due to power, I only mentioned she bested Rachel.

What physical objects has she affected? He does mention the pain tearing her consciousness or something like that, but they still seemed to be attacking with physical powers, to much physical destruction to be telepathic or I would guess the Grey home and most of the neighborhood would have been leveled from Dark Phoenix and Xaviers telepathic duel. She questions him about the nature of his power being psionic, my guess is she would have no need to deduce or mention this if they were fighting telepathically, it would be obvious.

I only mentioned it because you used Seris and Exodus in the post which would suggest you were comparing power level, forgive my assumption.

She affected cerebro during the morlock massacre. I mean look at the instance between Phoenix and Emma, the building collapse its been argued that it was either her telepathy or her latent telekinetic ability but it has never been proven, we can only theorize. Plus the whole Dark Phoenix issue mentioned may be just a rare occasion for telepath to affect the physical reality. Psionic encompass a whole variety, telekinesis, telepathy, ect. Because most of those can be replicated by cosmic energy, magic, ect.

No please its okay and thank you for correcting me. It has been a while since I read the issue, all I remember was Crystal's feat and Scarlet Witch as well as Jean not being able to take on Exodus..... my memory of the issue is faint lol

#46 Posted by Madame_Blossom (692 posts) - - Show Bio

@charlieboy: Yes and no, they are said to be at their strongest when in a collective unit which would rival Emma and such. Not that I remember, I saw so in the show but not in comic.... is there a scan? Did she, refresh my mind please, all I saw was him teleporting around and them trying to catch him. I'm not disbelieving your statement I just need to refresh my memory.

#47 Edited by THUNDERBOLT30 (10507 posts) - - Show Bio

This battle is a little imbalanced in favor of the Avengers IMO. With this current roster I am leaning more toward the Avengers due to Sersi, Thor (though I am not that familiar with this version...so it could be debatable), and potentially not having a full answer for Vision (I am not sure an EMP will drop Vision). Here is one way I see this fight going...

Captain America vs Wolverine

Hercules vs Colossnaut

Black Knight vs Nightcrawler

Vision vs ? - The X-Men need an additional member to balance this out.

Sersi vs Rachel Grey - Not sure

Crystal vs Storm

Thor vs Rogue (Ms. Marvel powers) - In a decent fight that can potentially go eitehr way depending if this version of Thor if he is not as powerful or experienced enough to not get drained by Rogue, which is a good possibility.

#48 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4143 posts) - - Show Bio

@Madame_Blossom said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@Madame_Blossom said:

@charlieboy: The Rise and Fall arc, when Xavier lead the team in pursuit against the Vulcan or from X-Men or X-Men Emperor Vulcan. one of those two I'm certain....

What makes you call Oracle an "average telepath" she's part of the Imperial Guard they are the elite something tells me they don't let "average telepaths" in. If she gave Rachel problems like you said then there is no way she could be average anyway due to Rachel being such a powerful telepath herself. Cuckoos are also very gifted telepaths even Jean commented on that, so getting thown around by them is not a low feat that makes a telepath average.

It doesn't matter if they're elite or not, she still doesn't compare to other telepaths, which is why I called her average, she is pale against her Earth resident telepath. So if a lesser skilled telepath compared to those on Earth gives Rachel a problem then Sersi herself can defiantly hold her own against her, I mean given with her immense power and telepathy. Yes we are all aware of that, I was mentioning that Oracle is considerably weaker than them, if she manages to block Rachel then why not the cuckoos, being that Rachel is omega level.

I'm just trying to figure out why you mark her as considerably weaker or less skilled? Where did you get this from? Did Imiss something? Being part of an elite Imperial Guard would suggest she is a powerful telepath in her own right. king is not gonna have average warriors as his personal guard. Are there better warriors? Yes, but that doesn't make her average by comparison. I can only guess it was PIS, CIS or WIS, considering Emma can overpower 1000 Cuckoos and Rachel is more powerful than Emma.

Telepaths can be blocked by non-telepaths or weaker telepaths with less skill. Emma didn't even know the M twins, when they were M, had telepathy (until they used it to contact her) and when she tried entering their mind was unable to, and she is leagues above them. They also were unaffected by Emma mind controlling Gen X during Onslaught and dragged her to the astral plane to explain her actions.

#49 Posted by New_World_Order (13235 posts) - - Show Bio

@charlieboy said:

@ThunderGodsWrath: That is Eric Masterson not the real Thor. I thought you were a Thor fan. You don't know who Eric Masterson is?

I am a Thor fan, and I do know who Masterson is. But it's you who doesn't get it. Masterson is a copy of Thor. A weaker one shown many times. It's obvious the real Thor can achieve anything his copies can. Also that's not even Masterson fighting Glory. It's Thor Odinson..

#50 Edited by charlieboy (7160 posts) - - Show Bio

@Madame_Blossom: Issue 261. She gets past his psi defenses and tells Rogue where he is going to appear after teleporting. Rogue absorbs his teleporting. She also mentions she can keep him out of their heads. Issue 262. Rachel says " Why don't you think he hasn't shut down all our minds? Erased and rewired your brain? I am fighting him on the psychic plan. " 263. She puts a mental block in his head and blocks him from using his powers.