The Wolverine vs Daken Debate

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Pokergeist

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#51  Edited By Pokergeist

@nickzambuto said:

@jashro44 said:

@nickzambuto said:

@CadenceV2 said:

Wolverine has more feats and better record of Awsomness.

More feats =/= better feats. I want Wolverine to win, as I sincerely hate Daken with a passion, but I'm not convinced he can.

Why do you believe Daken wins? I think I lean towards wolverine personally after thinking about it....A little unsure though.

The fact that he's stomped Logan in damn near every encounter they've had. I guess Wolverine holds back because it's his son but... I don't know. That's not really enough for me to believe he can win. Even if Logan isn't fighting to his fullest, he can at the very least make an effort to react to Daken rather than pretty much get blitzed. This leads me to believe that he can't react, that Daken is just better.

Honestly the Pheramones and M-Claws are just unfair. If Wolvie had the M Blade and showed effort in Prep with a Nose Filter or Gas Mask then wolvie could win for sure.

Seriously the M-claws negate his healing and a outright win for Daken more often than not.

Give wolvie a M Sword and even the field lol.

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nickzambuto

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#52  Edited By nickzambuto

@CadenceV2 said:

@nickzambuto said:

@jashro44 said:

@nickzambuto said:

@CadenceV2 said:

Wolverine has more feats and better record of Awsomness.

More feats =/= better feats. I want Wolverine to win, as I sincerely hate Daken with a passion, but I'm not convinced he can.

Why do you believe Daken wins? I think I lean towards wolverine personally after thinking about it....A little unsure though.

The fact that he's stomped Logan in damn near every encounter they've had. I guess Wolverine holds back because it's his son but... I don't know. That's not really enough for me to believe he can win. Even if Logan isn't fighting to his fullest, he can at the very least make an effort to react to Daken rather than pretty much get blitzed. This leads me to believe that he can't react, that Daken is just better.

Honestly the Pheramones and M-Claws are just unfair. If Wolvie had the M Blade and showed effort in Prep with a Nose Filter or Gas Mask then wolvie could win for sure.

Seriously the M-claws negate his healing and a outright win for Daken more often than not.

Give wolvie a M Sword and even the field lol.

Batman's gadgets, Cap's shield, and even Wolverine's skeleton are all unfair advantages too against the majority of their opponents. If we compare the two on paper Logan might be better than Daken, but in a real fight, Daken's advantages give him the win.

Even without M-Claws though, I believe Daken to still be better.

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Saren

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#53  Edited By Saren

Wolverine and Daken fought recently and the pheromones didn't work. Logan simply ignored them and killed Daken with his bare hands. No claws.

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BringnIt

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#54  Edited By BringnIt

If Logan is going all out, it's been shown that he wrecks Daken.

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jashro44

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#55  Edited By jashro44

@nickzambuto said:

@jashro44 said:

@nickzambuto said:

@CadenceV2 said:

Wolverine has more feats and better record of Awsomness.

More feats =/= better feats. I want Wolverine to win, as I sincerely hate Daken with a passion, but I'm not convinced he can.

Why do you believe Daken wins? I think I lean towards wolverine personally after thinking about it....A little unsure though.

The fact that he's stomped Logan in damn near every encounter they've had. I guess Wolverine holds back because it's his son but... I don't know. That's not really enough for me to believe he can win. Even if Logan isn't fighting to his fullest, he can at the very least make an effort to react to Daken rather than pretty much get blitzed. This leads me to believe that he can't react, that Daken is just better.

He stomped wolverine once out of there 4 fights...And it was there first battle. Wolverine is 3-1 on daken. I do consider one of wolverines wins pis since he basically took on his entire rouges....But here are 2 of there battles

The disappearing technique is something I am not so sure about though to be honest and why I am a little unsure. All though I recall seeing a scan of wolverine vanishing in front of nightcrawler and saying its a ninjutsu technique. So he might know the technique...

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nickzambuto

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#56  Edited By nickzambuto

@jashro44 said:

@nickzambuto said:

@jashro44 said:

@nickzambuto said:

@CadenceV2 said:

Wolverine has more feats and better record of Awsomness.

More feats =/= better feats. I want Wolverine to win, as I sincerely hate Daken with a passion, but I'm not convinced he can.

Why do you believe Daken wins? I think I lean towards wolverine personally after thinking about it....A little unsure though.

The fact that he's stomped Logan in damn near every encounter they've had. I guess Wolverine holds back because it's his son but... I don't know. That's not really enough for me to believe he can win. Even if Logan isn't fighting to his fullest, he can at the very least make an effort to react to Daken rather than pretty much get blitzed. This leads me to believe that he can't react, that Daken is just better.

He stomped wolverine once out of there 4 fights...And it was there first battle. Wolverine is 3-1 on daken. I do consider one of wolverines wins pis since he basically took on his entire rouges....But here are 2 of there battles

The disappearing technique is something I am not so sure about though to be honest and why I am a little unsure. All though I recall seeing a scan of wolverine vanishing in front of nightcrawler and saying its a ninjutsu technique. So he might know the technique...

The above fight, Logan was equipped with the Murumasa Blade. As I told Cadence, one of the main reasons I believe Daken wins is because he has the advantage of M-Claws whereas Logan is Adamantium.

In the other fight Daken was clearly enraged and hardly fighting to the best of his ability.

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jashro44

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#57  Edited By jashro44

@nickzambuto: Daken doesn't have the M claws anymore. Wolverine took them away after he beat him with the M.blade (the last scan you see wolverine burying dakens claws with the sword). Perhaps Daken wasn't fighting to the best of his abilities in the other battle, I can except that. However wolverine is still 2-1 on daken.

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nickzambuto

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#58  Edited By nickzambuto

@jashro44 said:

@nickzambuto: Daken doesn't have the M claws anymore. Wolverine took them away after he beat him with the M.blade (the last scan you see wolverine burying dakens claws with the sword). Perhaps Daken wasn't fighting to the best of his abilities in the other battle, I can except that. However wolverine is still 2-1 on daken.

I just always think of Daken as having M-Claws. Without them Wolvy has a better chance.

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jashro44

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#59  Edited By jashro44

@nickzambuto said:

@jashro44 said:

@nickzambuto: Daken doesn't have the M claws anymore. Wolverine took them away after he beat him with the M.blade (the last scan you see wolverine burying dakens claws with the sword). Perhaps Daken wasn't fighting to the best of his abilities in the other battle, I can except that. However wolverine is still 2-1 on daken.

I just always think of Daken as having M-Claws. Without them Wolvy has a better chance.

I agree Daken would win the M-claws. I honestly think this is a close fight without them.

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nickzambuto

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#60  Edited By nickzambuto

Get your ass in here.

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TheAmazingImmortalMan

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@BringnIt said:

If Logan is going all out, it's been shown that he wrecks Daken.
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god_spawn

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#62  Edited By god_spawn  Moderator

I don't get why this is being debated anymore? Wolverine's already shown to be Daken's superior twice. Daken's only advantage anymore is his disappearing trick and even that doesn't seal the deal anymore considering how scarce Daken uses it.

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rico_3088

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#63  Edited By rico_3088

I think Wolverine should take it, but Daken has been taking him to the school most of the time.

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god_spawn

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#64  Edited By god_spawn  Moderator

@jashro44:

The disappearing technique is something I am not so sure about though to be honest and why I am a little unsure. All though I recall seeing a scan of wolverine vanishing in front of nightcrawler and saying its a ninjutsu technique. So he might know the technique...

I think the technique has varying levels and maybe different ways of doing it whether based off of pure technique, speed, or a combo of both.

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Esquire

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#65  Edited By Esquire

@CadenceV2 said:

Seriously the M-claws negate his healing and a outright win for Daken more often than not.

Give wolvie a M Sword and even the field lol.

Daken has never tagged Wolverine with the M-Claws. Not once. The only time he even unsheathed them against Logan was when Wolverine had the M-Blade, so the writers didn't have to worry about Daken killing Logan. If he'd used the M-Claws in their earlier fights, (he didn't have them in the first one, though), he could have killed Wolvie. Wolverine even says as much after one of their encounters. But Daken doesn't even have them in this fight, so it doesn't matter much.

@nickzambuto:

Daken vs Wolverine is an odd proposition, because both of them are so inconsistent. Daken can probably win if he spams his disappearing trick, but he doesn't use it all that much anymore. Wolverine is immune to his pheromones for some reason, so that's out. And with Wolvie's adamantium, Daken will have a hard time putting him down sans Muramasa Claws.

But at the same time, Daken has taken Logan down on multiple occasions without his M-Claws, and he does have the disappearing trick available for use. Cyber has said that Daken has a better chance to kill him than Wolverine does, and Wolverine has thought that Daken is better than he is. Cyber says Daken is more skilled than he is, and Cyber has been fighting since before World War II.

Wolverine is supposed to have more skill, and he has ridiculous amounts of training and experience. But he's also a lot more prone to brawling than Daken has ever been, so he doesn't show that skill with nearly as much regularity as Daken.

Daken beat Wolverine in their first couple of encounters, but Wolverine has beaten him a couple of times since then, including his recent almost-stomp where he re-killed Daken. My problem with that fight is that Daken was so angry he had gone feral. Logan states this several times during the fight. And as we see repeatedly, Daken is far, far less effective when he's angry. (See Daken vs Deadpool, his first fight with Wolverine, etc.) If Daken had stayed calm, things might have gone differently, seeing as he's been able to keep up with Wolverine in previous encounters when he's remained calm. But on the other hand, Wolverine has won both of their last two fights handily, and he's showed the ability to perform with Marvel's best for decades.

With M-Claws and fighting smart, Daken should be able to take this with a majority by spamming disappearing trick and negating Wolvie's healing factor. Without M-Claws and totally in-character, Daken will probably get angry/frightened and lost a substantial majority. If he's bone claw and stays calm, I would put it as pretty darn close to a stalemate. Logan's adamantium gives him a big advantage, and he has better speed feats. But Daken has not only consistently kept up with Logan in the past, his disappearing trick lets him get a few free hits in. Wolverine probably has a little more skill based on his decades more of experience, but Daken is extraordinary in his own right, and has kept up with/beaten Wolvie and other skilled opponents in the past.

So in conclusion, in the scenario at hand, I would say something like Wolverine 51, Daken 49. Much as I love Daken, Wolverine has too many high-end feats from his ludicrous amount of exposure compared to Daken's relatively few. (Although impressive ones.)

*Disclaimer: I have a tendency to lowball Wolverine a little bit, so this assessment might be a tad skewed.

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jashro44

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#66  Edited By jashro44

@god_spawn said:

@jashro44:

The disappearing technique is something I am not so sure about though to be honest and why I am a little unsure. All though I recall seeing a scan of wolverine vanishing in front of nightcrawler and saying its a ninjutsu technique. So he might know the technique...

I think the technique has varying levels and maybe different ways of doing it whether based off of pure technique, speed, or a combo of both.

Yea I think thats probably how wolverine does it. All though Daken did say it didn't have anything to do with speed.

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god_spawn

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#67  Edited By god_spawn  Moderator

@jashro44: Well, that's where I think it depends on the character and the instance. Daken's version definitely comes to stealth. His comments to Deadpool saying it doesn't involve speed. And Spider-Man saying there is basically no movement, no sound and Pete just blinks and he is there. Daken has also snuck into the Baxter Building undetected to the Fantastic Four so his version is definitely stealth. Batman has switched teacups and appeared behind people in the blink of an eye and stealth is a strong suit of his. Cap has disappeared behind a gunman before. Wolverine has done so through technique (as pointed out in his tag game with Nightcrawler) yet Logan has disappeared from sight from gunmen before and has blitzed people and kept pace with Spider-Man whom himself has just disappeared before people through sheer speed. Same with Sabretooth (could be argued Victor knows the technique but since he doesn't really use his skill and is slightly faster than Logan, it could be pure speed instead.)

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jashro44

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#68  Edited By jashro44

@god_spawn said:

@jashro44: Well, that's where I think it depends on the character and the instance. Daken's version definitely comes to stealth. His comments to Deadpool saying it doesn't involve speed. And Spider-Man saying there is basically no movement, no sound and Pete just blinks and he is there. Daken has also snuck into the Baxter Building undetected to the Fantastic Four so his version is definitely stealth. Batman has switched teacups and appeared behind people in the blink of an eye and stealth is a strong suit of his. Cap has disappeared behind a gunman before. Wolverine has done so through technique (as pointed out in his tag game with Nightcrawler) yet Logan has disappeared from sight from gunmen before and has blitzed people and kept pace with Spider-Man whom himself has just disappeared before people through sheer speed. Same with Sabretooth (could be argued Victor knows the technique but since he doesn't really use his skill and is slightly faster than Logan, it could be pure speed instead.)

Oh I definitely agree with that. I was just thinking of ways for wolverine to counter dakens stealth. I think thats the only issue that wolverine is going to have to deal with here, all though I have never really been sure how to counter dakens stealth in battle forums. I was just saying I think that when daken uses the trick he learned from romulus maybe wolverine can use the trick to avoid it. Dakens trick is fast but it can't be instantaneous since spider-man was able to dodge it. I think if wolverine can react fast enough he can use the trick he used on nightcrawler to avoid this Dakens trick.

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Esquire

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#69  Edited By Esquire

@jashro44 said:

@god_spawn said:

@jashro44: Well, that's where I think it depends on the character and the instance. Daken's version definitely comes to stealth. His comments to Deadpool saying it doesn't involve speed. And Spider-Man saying there is basically no movement, no sound and Pete just blinks and he is there. Daken has also snuck into the Baxter Building undetected to the Fantastic Four so his version is definitely stealth. Batman has switched teacups and appeared behind people in the blink of an eye and stealth is a strong suit of his. Cap has disappeared behind a gunman before. Wolverine has done so through technique (as pointed out in his tag game with Nightcrawler) yet Logan has disappeared from sight from gunmen before and has blitzed people and kept pace with Spider-Man whom himself has just disappeared before people through sheer speed. Same with Sabretooth (could be argued Victor knows the technique but since he doesn't really use his skill and is slightly faster than Logan, it could be pure speed instead.)

Oh I definitely agree with that. I was just thinking of ways for wolverine to counter dakens stealth. I think thats the only issue that wolverine is going to have to deal with here, all though I have never really been sure how to counter dakens stealth in battle forums. I was just saying I think that when daken uses the trick he learned from romulus maybe wolverine can use the trick to avoid it. Dakens trick is fast but it can't be instantaneous since spider-man was able to dodge it. I think if wolverine can react fast enough he can use the trick he used on nightcrawler to avoid this Dakens trick.

Daken has used the trick on Wolverine before, so he doesn't seem to have any readily available counters. If his speed was good enough to dodge it, he probably would have done so.

Also, when did Spidey dodge him? I've read the fight dozens of times and, as far as I can see, Spidey never dodges anything until he starts relying on his Spider-Sense, and after he does that Daken never tries to use his disappearing trick.

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jashro44

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#70  Edited By jashro44

@Esquire:

Daken has used the trick on Wolverine before, so he doesn't seem to have any readily available counters. If his speed was good enough to dodge it, he probably would have done so.

Maybe. All though wolverine might know the trick himself based off the game he played with nightcrawler. I don't think his speed is good enough to dodge it but he might be able to use the technique himself (based off the scans I saw it seems like he is capable) but this is mostly speculation on my part that it can be used to counter Dakens technique. So this is only a theory.

Also, when did Spidey dodge him? I've read the fight dozens of times and, as far as I can see, Spidey never dodges anything until he starts relying on his Spider-Sense, and after he does that Daken never tries to use his disappearing trick.

Daken started the fight off with his disappearing technique before he used the pheromones, it did work but spider-mans spider-sense allowed him to keep his head on.

No Caption Provided

I think Daken dodged Peters webbing as well with this move as well.

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Esquire

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#71  Edited By Esquire

@jashro44: I guess if we're counting the trick as stealth-based, that would count. Never thought of it that way before!

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andy_banerjee_10

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#72  Edited By andy_banerjee_10

its interesting because even though daken's healing factor is better due to there being a lack of adamantium it is also a weakness. Proffesor X once said that wolverine could be killed if his head was chopped off because his brain would not be able to tell his body to heal itself. this being said he also stated that it is impossible to sever wolverine's head since the adamantium cannot be cut. so technically, chopping off Daken's head is possible and that would cause his regenerative healing factor to fail. this on top of Logan's experience means that wolverine>Daken

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comic_book_fan

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#73  Edited By comic_book_fan

wolverine would kick his ass he is a better fighter.

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Bump ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

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Supermanwithatan01

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@jashro44: sorry to bump this but both fighting at their best with no PIS, who wins? Daken with his marumusa claws?

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jashro44

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@jashro44: sorry to bump this but both fighting at their best with no PIS, who wins? Daken with his marumusa claws?

Well muramasa claws are kind of an unfair advantage. They negate wolverines healing factor. Without them I think Logan would win based on there last few fights.

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Supermanwithatan01

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@jashro44: so with them he beats wolverine but without Logan wins?

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jashro44

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Supermanwithatan01

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@jashro44: Daken must be badass and extremely skilled lol thanks buddy

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jashro44

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@supermanwithatan01Well he use to be. In his first fight he curbstomped both wolverine and deadpool (not at the same time). His showings went down hill though when he got more exposure. And no problem.

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Supermanwithatan01

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@jashro44: who would you say at their highest point is better? Sorry for all the questions

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jashro44

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@jashro44: who would you say at their highest point is better? Sorry for all the questions

If your just talking skill than I don't know. Dakens feat of stomping wolverine and deadpool during origins was impressive but wolverine has much more quantity of showings t draw on.

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Supermanwithatan01

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@jashro44: lol well you know it's always quality over quantity, so if that feat was PIS and it's better than Logans high end feats then Daken should win right?

Edit** and let's say they both have muramusa daggers

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Supermanwithatan01

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@god_spawn: do you think Logan beats his son for the majority? (Both at their peak)

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Berserker/Morals Off/Blood-lusted Wolverine would slaughter-stomp Daken!

People are still wanking that tool?

Lol!

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#86 god_spawn  Moderator

@supermanwithatan01: Daken at his peak had muramasa claws and that's a bit of an unfair advantage. Logan needed the muramasa blade and a refresher course to beat him. If both are at their peak with standard claws, I'd think their last couple of fights have set Logan over him.

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Supermanwithatan01

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@god_spawn: what if they're both at their peak, morals off and Daken has his muramasa claws but Logan has a muramasa dagger?

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#88 god_spawn  Moderator
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Supermanwithatan01

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@god_spawn: thanks buddy, informative and awesome as always sir!

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#90 god_spawn  Moderator
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#91  Edited By morpheus_  Moderator

Original Daken wins

One-Armed Daken loses

Muramasa Daken stomps

Remender Daken trips on his own foot and gets impaled by Logan's claws

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@morpheus_: so even with them both at their best, and if Daken has his muramasa claws and Logan has the dagger, you'd back Daken?

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#94 morpheus_  Moderator

@supermanwithatan01: By dagger you mean the muramasa blade? I'd back Daken if he has the claws and Logan is his regular adamantium skeleton self, with the blade they already fought and Logan won, albeit in an odd way and after undergoing a rehash course with the Silver Samurai.

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@morpheus_: yeah my bad the Muramasa blade. They both have capability of hurting each other and Jash mentioned Daken stomped Logan at first. I was just wondering who's the better of the 2. In an all out morals off (Logan isn't afraid to kill him or vice versa) fight.

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morpheus_

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#96 morpheus_  Moderator

@supermanwithatan01: Their fights always are contextual given their relationship. Morals off with bone claw Daken vs Wolverine, I'd take Logan, he can withstand more punishment than Daken and even though in bone claws Daken has sliced metal, adamantium packs more of a punch. If Daken utilizes his pheromones creatively instead of trying to pacify Logan like he did in Remender's Uncanny X-Force, he could snatch wins.

With the muramasa laced on his claws, Daken would win. It's too big of an edge. Logan would have to avoid being tagged once, and simply put, that's not going to happen seeing as Daken is as fast as he is. One slash and his healing factor is out, which turns the fight very much in Daken's favor. Originally, Daken was conceptually better than Logan but while they've both had their low and high showings, Logan's training and history is too extensive for me to claim he's better than his father simply relying just on that. They are both listed as tier 7 in Marvel's handbooks in terms of skill, though. Personally, I wouldn't rate Daken that highly.

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@supermanwithatan01:

I'd back Logan (bone claws for both).

Daken is a tool, admittedly so, and is a wannabe.

OG Wolverine for life!

REPRESENT!

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Supermanwithatan01

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