#1 Posted by Stingerrain (1074 posts) - - Show Bio
Mistral, Monsoon and Sundowner (Metal Gear Rising)

Vs

Nemesis, Backlash (Half-Gen Factor) and Midnighter (No Doors)

- Full knowledge for both sides

- Standard equipment

- In-Character

- Winner by Death

- Setting is Time Square

- Starting distance is 200 feet apart

#2 Posted by Stingerrain (1074 posts) - - Show Bio
#3 Edited by laflux (15868 posts) - - Show Bio
#4 Posted by Strider92 (16434 posts) - - Show Bio

Unfortunately I lack the knowledge on the Metal Gear Solid team to make a debate but that better be god damn tough to take on this team.

#5 Posted by laflux (15868 posts) - - Show Bio

Unfortunately I lack the knowledge on the Metal Gear Solid team to make a debate but that better be god damn tough to take on this team.

Yeah I was hoping Nickz could make a case for the Metal Gear Team, and then a debate could ensue from there....

#6 Edited by Saren (25671 posts) - - Show Bio

This notification system blows....

I'll wait for someone to argue for the MGS team.

Moderator
#7 Posted by saiyan_earthling (5444 posts) - - Show Bio

Wildstorm may win this, but Monsoon will be a big problem.

#8 Posted by dondave (37299 posts) - - Show Bio

This notification system blows....

I'll wait for someone to argue for the MGS team.

#9 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

I have not played MGR at all. However I do know all these guys are Cyborg Ninjas.

Base on the fact they are equals with Raiden and on the feats of Grey Fox..... they should win.

Each one should be 100-500 toner in Strength. Each one should be around the Speed of Mach 2-3. Each one has a Blade that cuts through Metal Gear Armor with ease.

So..... they should beat Midnighter because Midnighter is the weak link without Doors. People overate Mid because his stats and Doors. Well his stats are matched and he has no defense from the swords. His Doors are gone, His Battle CPu will just point out how bad he will be killed.

Nemesis has Creation Blades, she could easily solo actually. Im not sure of her stats, she fights Majestic tho. Backlash also has a huge Advantage of Misting and Psychic Whips.

So Midnighter is the weak link, Nemesis can solo, Backlash is a good fight.

#10 Posted by nickzambuto (13645 posts) - - Show Bio

I have not played MGR at all. However I do know all these guys are Cyborg Ninjas.

Base on the fact they are equals with Raiden and on the feats of Grey Fox..... they should win.

Each one should be 100-500 toner in Strength. Each one should be around the Speed of Mach 2-3. Each one has a Blade that cuts through Metal Gear Armor with ease.

So..... they should beat Midnighter because Midnighter is the weak link without Doors. People overate Mid because his stats and Doors. Well his stats are matched and he has no defense from the swords. His Doors are gone, His Battle CPu will just point out how bad he will be killed.

Nemesis has Creation Blades, she could easily solo actually. Im not sure of her stats, she fights Majestic tho. Backlash also has a huge Advantage of Misting and Psychic Whips.

So Midnighter is the weak link, Nemesis can solo, Backlash is a good fight.

>Says MGR team should win

>Next sentence states Nemesis can solo

#11 Posted by nickzambuto (13645 posts) - - Show Bio

Alright let's see. Cadence summed it up pretty well actually. The Winds of Destruction don't have many feats, but they should have enough to win. CNT muscle fiber enhances their strength to either Raiden's equal, or in Sundowner's case, his superior, making each member class-1,000 tons+, and they are all just as fast, or faster, than Raiden to boot (the guy that can hop scotch across supersonic missiles and make a dozen slashes in a millisecond). Additionally, every member of the Winds of Destruction is a hardened veteran with skill and brutality to spare. Mistral was a child soldier who spent so much time killing that she had eventually grown bored of it, slaughtering entire platoons alone with such ease that she began to envy her pray. This is without any cyborg enhancements. She also possesses an incredible degree of spatial awareness and instinct, detecting Raiden on a high mountain top from hundreds of yards away with absolutely no hint at his presence.

3:00-3:50

All that said, Mistral is probably the least skilled member of Desperado. She completely baffled Boris with her technique, and he even admitted he simply could not keep up with her moves. She can throw volleys of Dwarf Gekko as projectiles fast enough to make them catch fire from air friction, and her weapon, L'Etranger is a big advantage over everyone here considering it's versatility. In addition to using it as a whip and spear, she can also utilize it to cartwheel to mow people down in a similar manner to a buzz-saw. She can also loosen both ends to act as grappling hooks to damage the environment and her opponents with a slam.

I'll get into Monsoon and Sundowner later.

#12 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

I have not played MGR at all. However I do know all these guys are Cyborg Ninjas.

Base on the fact they are equals with Raiden and on the feats of Grey Fox..... they should win.

Each one should be 100-500 toner in Strength. Each one should be around the Speed of Mach 2-3. Each one has a Blade that cuts through Metal Gear Armor with ease.

So..... they should beat Midnighter because Midnighter is the weak link without Doors. People overate Mid because his stats and Doors. Well his stats are matched and he has no defense from the swords. His Doors are gone, His Battle CPu will just point out how bad he will be killed.

Nemesis has Creation Blades, she could easily solo actually. Im not sure of her stats, she fights Majestic tho. Backlash also has a huge Advantage of Misting and Psychic Whips.

So Midnighter is the weak link, Nemesis can solo, Backlash is a good fight.

>Says MGR team should win

>Next sentence states Nemesis can solo

Politics! Politics I say!

#13 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: I never understood where Cyborg ninjas came from. Gray Foz was the first and Raiden was clearly the second.

So where all these Cyber Ninjas Come From and why are they not focused as the super Soldier weapon of choice. it seems cheaper and easier to make one Cyborg than the resources and people needed to make one Metal gear. What Gives, it seems stupid.

#14 Edited by Saren (25671 posts) - - Show Bio

Setting aside Cadence being Cadence, I would dearly love to see anything that suggests anyone on Team MGS wouldn't get one-shotted by Midnighter or Nemesis. Midnighter's one-hit-KO'd several people far tougher than these three and Nemesis has those handy dandy swords that slice through anything ---- and barriers that make it kinda sorta hard to actually hit her, and gene grenades that warp their victims apart, yada yada.....

Oh, and in before Cadence says something about Zealot.

Moderator
#15 Posted by nickzambuto (13645 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: I never understood where Cyborg ninjas came from. Gray Foz was the first and Raiden was clearly the second.

So where all these Cyber Ninjas Come From and why are they not focused as the super Soldier weapon of choice. it seems cheaper and easier to make one Cyborg than the resources and people needed to make one Metal gear. What Gives, it seems stupid.

Olga is generally deemed the second, even though she wasn't technically a cyborg. That makes Raiden the third.

You are actually completely correct on that point. It's the reason cybernetics have become so popular by 2018 (when Rising takes place), and also with the war economy seen in MGS4, nuclear launching platforms wouldn't serve much use anymore.

Setting aside Cadence being Cadence, I would dearly love to see anything that suggests anyone on Team MGS wouldn't get one-shotted by Midnighter or Nemesis. Midnighter's one-hit-KO'd several people far tougher than these three and Nemesis has those handy dandy swords that slice through anything ---- and barriers that make it kinda sorta hard to actually hit her, and gene grenades that warp their victims apart, yada yada.....

Oh, and in before Cadence says something about Zealot.

If they can tank Raiden's physical blows, I doubt Midnighter can one shot them.

#16 Posted by Saren (25671 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane said:

Setting aside Cadence being Cadence, I would dearly love to see anything that suggests anyone on Team MGS wouldn't get one-shotted by Midnighter or Nemesis. Midnighter's one-hit-KO'd several people far tougher than these three and Nemesis has those handy dandy swords that slice through anything ---- and barriers that make it kinda sorta hard to actually hit her, and gene grenades that warp their victims apart, yada yada.....

Oh, and in before Cadence says something about Zealot.

If they can tank Raiden's physical blows, I doubt Midnighter can one shot them.

Tell that to Maul or Winter or Apollo or Amaze or Hellstrike or the Mercs or a whole bunch of people far more impressive than any of these three, and who have durability showings much, much better (basking in the sun, trading blows with Captain Atom, tanking Majestic's heat vision, etc etc) than taking blows from Raiden, that Midnighter's either one-shotted or put a beating on. And again, nothing's really stopping Nemesis from relaxing behind her barriers as gene grenades reduce everyone on Team MGS' cells to so much mush.

Moderator
#17 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

Setting aside Cadence being Cadence, I would dearly love to see anything that suggests anyone on Team MGS wouldn't get one-shotted by Midnighter or Nemesis. Midnighter's one-hit-KO'd several people far tougher than these three and Nemesis has those handy dandy swords that slice through anything ---- and barriers that make it kinda sorta hard to actually hit her, and gene grenades that warp their victims apart, yada yada.....

Oh yeah well Midnightter couldnt beat once...

Oh, and in before Cadence says something about Zealot.

Uh..... well... yeah.....

Also For the Record.....

Cadence Said:

Nemesis has Creation Blades, she could easily solo actually. Im not sure of her stats, she fights Majestic tho. Backlash also has a huge Advantage of Misting and Psychic Whips.

So Midnighter is the weak link, Nemesis can solo, Backlash is a good fight.

I think Midnighter with no Doors, vs 500 toners makes him the weak link. Raiden thru a 400+ Ton Metal Gear Ray. He Lifted and thru a 1000 ton Metal Gear at the end of the Game.

Raiden took blows form said Metal Gears with their Hydralic 100 ton+ swings!

These Cyborg ninjas are disguting durable and powerful.

If they can tank Raiden's physical blows, I doubt Midnighter can one shot them.

Also it seems they are Mach 2+ at best. I cannot post the Image due to Upload problems ... wtf..... but it is stated when Raiden vs Sundowner that "Even if you go Mach 2 you would not be fast enough" comment made.

#18 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

Here we go.

#19 Posted by nickzambuto (13645 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:
@citizenbane said:

Setting aside Cadence being Cadence, I would dearly love to see anything that suggests anyone on Team MGS wouldn't get one-shotted by Midnighter or Nemesis. Midnighter's one-hit-KO'd several people far tougher than these three and Nemesis has those handy dandy swords that slice through anything ---- and barriers that make it kinda sorta hard to actually hit her, and gene grenades that warp their victims apart, yada yada.....

Oh, and in before Cadence says something about Zealot.

If they can tank Raiden's physical blows, I doubt Midnighter can one shot them.

Tell that to Maul or Winter or Apollo or Amaze or Hellstrike or the Mercs or a whole bunch of people far more impressive than any of these three, and who have durability showings much, much better (basking in the sun, trading blows with Captain Atom, tanking Majestic's heat vision, etc etc) than taking blows from Raiden, that Midnighter's either one-shotted or put a beating on. And again, nothing's really stopping Nemesis from relaxing behind her barriers as gene grenades reduce everyone on Team MGS' cells to so much mush.

I'm sure there must be some context to these examples, I've never seen Midnighter as tough enough to trade blows with Superman level characters. I know his fight with Apollo for one was far from Midnighter one shotting him. He had prep, a lot of gear, and exploited Apollo's weaknesses to KO him.

@cadencev2 RAY in fact weighs over 500 tons. The fact that Raiden chucked it tens of meters through the air isn't what's impressive though, what's impressive is that he could parry RAY's strikes, and physically overpower it. RAY was powerful enough to leap hundreds of yards away, making the mech far above class 1,000.

Realistically though, a mech of that size should weigh a lot more than 500 tons, but RAY was designed with lightweight armor to enhance agility. Excelsus did not follow the same rule. As Doktor described, Excelsus had no need for maneuverability, the entire point of it's creation was to create the ultimate juggernaut, completely unstoppable and undestroyable. It was a direct response to the growing number of active cyborgs, designed to counter their speed and numbers with raw power. It's armor was much tougher and heavier than RAY's, not to mention the mech itself was several times RAY's size. So Excelsus would be more in line with 10,000 tons or so.

#20 Posted by dondave (37299 posts) - - Show Bio

Here we go.

That doesn't necessarily mean that they move at Mach 2 speeds it just means that an object travelling at Mach 2 wouldn't make it in time. For example if Raiden got a jet or other mode of transport

#21 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: I think strength wise... is BS.

There is a massive inconsistent showings of strength and durability in the whole MGR game. A couple of cops with Batons can hit raiden hard enough to cough blood. Yet senator punches Raiden with a clear 100+ ton punch that shatter 5 bulldozers worth of steel is simply a small cough for Raiden? WTF!

Then Raiden can throw a Metal Gear a few times. Yet his battles with the Cyborg Ninjas show nowhere near that strength when he slams them into walls of buildings and what not.

It really is dumb.

I did notice however in the cutscenes, Raiden muscles like tense up and bulge before a major strength hit or throw.

I think that plays a role. He needs to prepare for such a feat.

@dondave said:

@cadencev2 said:

Here we go.

That doesn't necessarily mean that they move at Mach 2 speeds it just means that an object travelling at Mach 2 wouldn't make it in time. For example if Raiden got a jet or other mode of transport

True that. I think Raden is Mach 2 Combat Speed wise however due to his feats and scenes.

#22 Posted by frogdog (3246 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

There is a massive inconsistent showings of strength and durability in the whole MGR game. A couple of cops with Batons can hit raiden hard enough to cough blood. Yet senator punches Raiden with a clear 100+ ton punch that shatter 5 bulldozers worth of steel is simply a small cough for Raiden? WTF!

Raiden was emotionally compromised during fight with the police cyborgs.

Then Raiden can throw a Metal Gear a few times. Yet his battles with the Cyborg Ninjas show nowhere near that strength when he slams them into walls of buildings and what not.

#23 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@frogdog said:

@cadencev2:

There is a massive inconsistent showings of strength and durability in the whole MGR game. A couple of cops with Batons can hit raiden hard enough to cough blood. Yet senator punches Raiden with a clear 100+ ton punch that shatter 5 bulldozers worth of steel is simply a small cough for Raiden? WTF!

Raiden was emotionally compromised during fight with the police cyborgs.

T

Does it matter? If I drove a tank mentally compromised, would my tank be weaker? No.

#24 Edited by nickzambuto (13645 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: I think strength wise... is BS.

There is a massive inconsistent showings of strength and durability in the whole MGR game. A couple of cops with Batons can hit raiden hard enough to cough blood. Yet senator punches Raiden with a clear 100+ ton punch that shatter 5 bulldozers worth of steel is simply a small cough for Raiden? WTF!

Then Raiden can throw a Metal Gear a few times. Yet his battles with the Cyborg Ninjas show nowhere near that strength when he slams them into walls of buildings and what not.

It really is dumb.

I did notice however in the cutscenes, Raiden muscles like tense up and bulge before a major strength hit or throw.

I think that plays a role. He needs to prepare for such a feat.

You might be remembering the cop scene wrong. The hit knocked the wind out of Raiden if anything, his mouth gasped open but the only thing that came out was saliva. Then he killed them and left. By converse, Raiden was legitimately spitting up blood midway through his fight with Armstrong.

The only time Raiden physically struck any Desperado member was when he kicked Mistral. That was a midair thrust with absolutely no leverage, that sent the 800 pound cyborg flying across the entire oil field and slamming into a metal pipeline. I think that's pretty consistant with his other feats.

Raiden can be a bit inconsistant though, I'll admit. Like, instead of blitzing the scientist holding George hostage, Raiden just daintily walked up to him and cut them both in half. Then the next scene has him running up the side of a collapsing bridge.

The bulging of his muscles is just an aesthetic effect, similar to the electricity that bleeds out when he ninja runs. It's just supposed to look cool. The only time that ever actually happened was when he tossed RAY, which was the game's residential "hype moment".

#25 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

@nickzambuto: I think strength wise... is BS.

There is a massive inconsistent showings of strength and durability in the whole MGR game. A couple of cops with Batons can hit raiden hard enough to cough blood. Yet senator punches Raiden with a clear 100+ ton punch that shatter 5 bulldozers worth of steel is simply a small cough for Raiden? WTF!

Then Raiden can throw a Metal Gear a few times. Yet his battles with the Cyborg Ninjas show nowhere near that strength when he slams them into walls of buildings and what not.

It really is dumb.

I did notice however in the cutscenes, Raiden muscles like tense up and bulge before a major strength hit or throw.

I think that plays a role. He needs to prepare for such a feat.

You might be remembering the cop scene wrong. The hit knocked the wind out of Raiden if anything, his mouth gasped open but the only thing that came out was saliva. Then he killed them and left. By converse, Raiden was legitimately spitting up blood midway through his fight with Armstrong.

The only time Raiden physically struck any Desperado member was when he kicked Mistral. That was a midair thrust with absolutely no leverage, that sent the 800 pound cyborg flying across the entire oil field and slamming into a metal pipeline. I think that's pretty consistant with his other feats.

Raiden can be a bit inconsistant though, I'll admit. Like, instead of blitzing the scientist holding George hostage, Raiden just daintily walked up to him and cut them both in half. Then the next scene has him running up the side of a collapsing bridge.

The bulging of his muscles is just an aesthetic effect, similar to the electricity that bleeds out when he ninja runs. It's just supposed to look cool. The only time that ever actually happened was when he tossed RAY, which was the game's residential "hype moment".

Im looking foward to Playing Big Boss Red Dead Redemption style.

**** Raiden and the Cyborgs crap. I remember being above Peak Human with Guns and Skill meant something. Solid Snake could never have survived the **** Raiden did and that was only a few years after. Makes me sick.

#26 Edited by Trollheim (243 posts) - - Show Bio

People underestimate emotional/mental state. Superman gets knocked around by foes SIGNIFICANTLY weaker than him because he's holding back. Saying Raiden is weak because some cyborg cops wailed on him while he was emotionally conflicted means nothing (especially since once he got pissed off he shows ZERO sign that he was effected in the slightest by those strikes or even being stabbed straight through the chest, in fact he hulks out and feeds off it). Just wanted to drop in to say how dumb that argument is. I don't know enough about Team Wildstorm to say how this fight would go though so I won't say anything else.

#27 Edited by nickzambuto (13645 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

@nickzambuto said:

@cadencev2 said:

@nickzambuto: I think strength wise... is BS.

There is a massive inconsistent showings of strength and durability in the whole MGR game. A couple of cops with Batons can hit raiden hard enough to cough blood. Yet senator punches Raiden with a clear 100+ ton punch that shatter 5 bulldozers worth of steel is simply a small cough for Raiden? WTF!

Then Raiden can throw a Metal Gear a few times. Yet his battles with the Cyborg Ninjas show nowhere near that strength when he slams them into walls of buildings and what not.

It really is dumb.

I did notice however in the cutscenes, Raiden muscles like tense up and bulge before a major strength hit or throw.

I think that plays a role. He needs to prepare for such a feat.

You might be remembering the cop scene wrong. The hit knocked the wind out of Raiden if anything, his mouth gasped open but the only thing that came out was saliva. Then he killed them and left. By converse, Raiden was legitimately spitting up blood midway through his fight with Armstrong.

The only time Raiden physically struck any Desperado member was when he kicked Mistral. That was a midair thrust with absolutely no leverage, that sent the 800 pound cyborg flying across the entire oil field and slamming into a metal pipeline. I think that's pretty consistant with his other feats.

Raiden can be a bit inconsistant though, I'll admit. Like, instead of blitzing the scientist holding George hostage, Raiden just daintily walked up to him and cut them both in half. Then the next scene has him running up the side of a collapsing bridge.

The bulging of his muscles is just an aesthetic effect, similar to the electricity that bleeds out when he ninja runs. It's just supposed to look cool. The only time that ever actually happened was when he tossed RAY, which was the game's residential "hype moment".

Im looking foward to Playing Big Boss Red Dead Redemption style.

**** Raiden and the Cyborgs crap. I remember being above Peak Human with Guns and Skill meant something. Solid Snake could never have survived the **** Raiden did and that was only a few years after. Makes me sick.

Ehhh yeeeah it does kinda suck how Snake is useless by 2018. I guess that's just natural progression of technology, after the fall of the Patriots, classified data and research was finally let public, which is why there's such a technology gap in the four years since Guns of The Patriots. I'm not really sure what to say on that topic, I am a bit butthurt that Raiden totally outclasses Solid Snake now, but still, Raiden isn't without his own enduring will and unbelievable skill. Maybe if Snake was still alive by 2018 he could wear an exoskeleton like Jetstream Sam does.

EDIT: And the Phantom Pain will undoubtedly be mind blowing :)

#28 Posted by frogdog (3246 posts) - - Show Bio

People underestimate emotional/mental state. Superman gets knocked around by foes SIGNIFICANTLY weaker than him because he's holding back. Saying Raiden is weak because some cyborg cops wailed on him while he was emotionally conflicted means nothing (especially since once he got pissed off he shows ZERO sign that he was effected in the slightest by those strikes or even being stabbed straight through the chest, in fact he hulks out and feeds off it). Just wanted to drop in to say how dumb that argument is. I don't know enough about Team Wildstorm to say how this fight would go though so I won't say anything else.

Nice post newbie.

#29 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

Ehhh yeeeah it does kinda suck how Snake is useless by 2018. I guess that's just natural progression of technology, after the fall of the Patriots, classified data and research was finally let public, which is why there's such a technology gap in the four years since Guns of The Patriots. I'm not really sure what to say on that topic, I am a bit butthurt that Raiden totally outclasses Solid Snake now, but still, Raiden isn't without his own enduring will and unbelievable skill. Maybe if Snake was still alive by 2018 he could wear an exoskeleton like Jetstream Sam does.

EDIT: And the Phantom Pain will undoubtedly be mind blowing :)

Yeah, I think Snake already had early version of Cyborg suit. The Octagon Camo suit doubled as Synthetic Muscles since Snake was so weak as a old 70 year old man. Then to show how tough it was, Snake was punching dent in steel with it.

He be past the ton level in his prime with that suit. So a Super suit for snake and lots of awsome guns would have been a sweet change from the norm with Snake if only he still lived.

Also Solidus Snake had a Super Suit as well that made him move so fast to cause fire from friction and strength.

So in all reality I think Solidus Snake with his suit, and Solid Snake in his prime with his muscle suit should make it closer to the Cyborgs.

They could have pulled that off. However the Snakes were too awesome to live, so they all had to die. The funniest thing is MGS6 is suppose to be Kojima's last game from him. Where do they base it? On the past on the original Snake that started it all. Kojima basicaly said f**k these no talented Cyborg Ninja future s**t, were going back to when Super Soldier meant something!

#30 Edited by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

@cadencev2 said:

Here we go.

That doesn't necessarily mean that they move at Mach 2 speeds it just means that an object travelling at Mach 2 wouldn't make it in time. For example if Raiden got a jet or other mode of transport

Only if we ignore context... As in the context of him stating "even at your fastest", except the writers wanted to quantify it, so they put that number in there (Mach 2).

Though I suppose we could ignore context and take for face value, because heaven forbid why would writer intent be important...?

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#31 Posted by nickzambuto (13645 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

Ehhh yeeeah it does kinda suck how Snake is useless by 2018. I guess that's just natural progression of technology, after the fall of the Patriots, classified data and research was finally let public, which is why there's such a technology gap in the four years since Guns of The Patriots. I'm not really sure what to say on that topic, I am a bit butthurt that Raiden totally outclasses Solid Snake now, but still, Raiden isn't without his own enduring will and unbelievable skill. Maybe if Snake was still alive by 2018 he could wear an exoskeleton like Jetstream Sam does.

EDIT: And the Phantom Pain will undoubtedly be mind blowing :)

Yeah, I think Snake already had early version of Cyborg suit. The Octagon Camo suit doubled as Synthetic Muscles since Snake was so weak as a old 70 year old man. Then to show how tough it was, Snake was punching dent in steel with it.

He be past the ton level in his prime with that suit. So a Super suit for snake and lots of awsome guns would have been a sweet change from the norm with Snake if only he still lived.

Also Solidus Snake had a Super Suit as well that made him move so fast to cause fire from friction and strength.

So in all reality I think Solidus Snake with his suit, and Solid Snake in his prime with his muscle suit should make it closer to the Cyborgs.

They could have pulled that off. However the Snakes were too awesome to live, so they all had to die. The funniest thing is MGS6 is suppose to be Kojima's last game from him. Where do they base it? On the past on the original Snake that started it all. Kojima basicaly said f**k these no talented Cyborg Ninja future s**t, were going back to when Super Soldier meant something!

I don't recall Old Snake denting steel? I know for a fact Ocelot did it, and Old Snake matched him in strength, so he should be capable of it. The thing is though, Snake matched Ocelot WITHOUT the OctoCamo (it was beyond busted after the microwave room). So what we have here is, a 70 year old man with roughly the strength to dent the reinforced hull of an armored aircraft carrier, equipped with a muscle enhancing suit that would more or less double his already peak human power, and STILL Solid Snake in his prime is supposed to be far far stronger! So then imagine young Solid Snake with the OctoCamo, yeah, he would be WAYY beyond peak human.

However, even then, he could only match the cannon fodder cyborgs Raiden took on AT BEST. In order to truly make full use of his skills, Snake would need a powered exoskeleton like the one Sam had. Solidus's suit is also obsolete by 2018.

#32 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Oh yeah, it was Ocelot. He also punched Snake in the skull with that steel denting fist like 3 times with no ill affect.

I think the suit like Solidus had made better and equiped with all kinds of awsome range weapons would be a win for a snake game.

Oh well. Heres to dreams.

#33 Posted by nickzambuto (13645 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Oh yeah, it was Ocelot. He also punched Snake in the skull with that steel denting fist like 3 times with no ill affect.

I think the suit like Solidus had made better and equiped with all kinds of awsome range weapons would be a win for a snake game.

Oh well. Heres to dreams.

It's a great durability feat, but in all honesty I thought it was kinda dumb how Ocelot literally couldn't break Old Snake's nose :P

#34 Edited by Tenticleporn (3 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

I don't recall Old Snake denting steel? I know for a fact Ocelot did it, and Old Snake matched him in strength, so he should be capable of it. The thing is though, Snake matched Ocelot WITHOUT the OctoCamo (it was beyond busted after the microwave room). So what we have here is, a 70 year old man with roughly the strength to dent the reinforced hull of an armored aircraft carrier, equipped with a muscle enhancing suit that would more or less double his already peak human power, and STILL Solid Snake in his prime is supposed to be far far stronger! So then imagine young Solid Snake with the OctoCamo, yeah, he would be WAYY beyond peak human.

However, even then, he could only match the cannon fodder cyborgs Raiden took on AT BEST. In order to truly make full use of his skills, Snake would need a powered exoskeleton like the one Sam had. Solidus's suit is also obsolete by 2018.

Liquid Ocelot was able to dent Outer Haven's hull because of his cybernetic arm. It had nothing to do with his own physical strength. I'm not sure what you mean by Old Snake matching him in strength, if you' mean the bro fist, keep in mind that even though the circuitry on the Octocamo was destroyed the padding in the suit was still in tact. Which basically means the padding in the octo camo prevented Snake's fist from shattering by absorbing most the impact of Ocelot's punch with his cybernetic arm. Had Snake been fighting without the octocamo, Ocelot's punch would of most likely shattered Snake's arm. Snake's own punch along with his padding was enough to halt Ocelot's punch without injuring himself. In order to actually dent steel you need a certain level of strength and durability, Ocelot's cybernetic arm gave him both, the padding on Snake's octo camo would only give the durability to hit steel and not break his own hand, but would still lack the strength even in his prime to actually damage it.

Just for the record, the hull of ships and aircraft carriers are usually made of soft steel, which are alloyed with tungsten and other materials to make it lighter and more flexable. It's hardness rating on the MOH Scale is generally a 5, only slightly harder than marble which is a 4

@cadencev2

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Keep in mind, Ocelot was hitting the side of Snake's face that was burned in Act 3, which would of killed the nerve endings on that side of his face. Snake could probably feel his head rocking from those punches but Snake probably wasn't feeling any pain from them. It's like fighting someone who's Bi Polar, you can beat the crap out of them but they won't feel the pain until the next day.

Also Snake and Ocelot were constantly injecting themselves throughout the fight. The same injection used through the game to restore psyche with adrenaline. So they were running high off adrenaline in their fight

#35 Edited by Tenticleporn (3 posts) - - Show Bio

The Wildstorm team takes this with ease. Honestly, any of them can solo. They can't hurt Backlash because of his intangibility, they'll get killed instantly by the Creation Blades and as someone else stated they'll get one shotted by Midnighter. MGR Cyborgs are strong but their striking power is atrocious, Raiden couldn't even hurt Senator Armstrong with repeated punches, where Midnighter despite only being as strong as Spiderman, is able to injure characters like Maul and Hellstrike. He can easily one shot any of the MGR team

Metal Gear is a cursed series, no matter how hard the developers, Kojima especially, try to make characters look formidable they always end up writing themselves into a corner, characters end up looking weak, and the games end up a giant cluster f*ck.