#1 Edited by Sheps13 (21 posts) - - Show Bio

The Winchesters (Sam & Dean only) with 10 days of prep gathering whatever weapons they need

vs Satan (Marduk Kurios) who has unleashed the apocalypse

fight takes place in downtown detroit

#2 Posted by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

The Winchesters.

#3 Posted by jamesisaacs (214 posts) - - Show Bio

The Winchesters!

#4 Posted by Simon_the_digger (2919 posts) - - Show Bio

Winchesters.

#5 Posted by Sheps13 (21 posts) - - Show Bio

why do the winchesters win?

#6 Posted by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

Wait what...? I don't think this as easy for the Winchesters as many seem to believe. For one, what may work on a demon in the Supernatural universe doesn't mean it will do the same in Marvel.

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#7 Posted by Stompa (1261 posts) - - Show Bio

I say Winchesters in 10 days they get the Saint of Killer "light" gun and shoot Satan. Should kill him.

#8 Edited by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

not sure why people here are saying winchesters win.........satan wins easily

#9 Edited by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

@deranged_midget: @rolldestroyer:

They've got the Colt so why wouldn't it work? They've got prep to do some incantations or make a binding circle. I don't think Satan is going to take two humans seriously.

#10 Posted by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

@xanni15: Yeah, but how do we know those things work on characters from completely separate universes? After all, despite having prep, Dean and Sam have no idea what they're really going up against. Most of the demons they fight are basically featless besides stronger.

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#11 Posted by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

@deranged_midget: I think we might have to make some assumptions and allowances. Sam and Dean without the Colt might very well get killed very easily, and even with the Colt they still might be killed as certain demons have just either stopped the bullet, used TK to pin the Winchesters against a wall, or just avoid the bullets entirely.

#12 Posted by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

@xanni15: Yeah, but demons in Supernatural are extremely limited in their abilities. Besides strength and some of them possessing TK, they are basically canon fodder to Sam and Dean. As for the Colt, is arguably one of the most powerful weapons in the Supernatural universe, capable of killing anything with the exception of four beings.

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#13 Posted by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

@xanni15:

didn't work on lucifer from what i recall (and several others) why should it work on a being as powerful as satan?

#14 Edited by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

@deranged_midget: @rolldestroyer: Do we know those besides Lucifer that the Colt wouldn't work on, and do we know why he didn't work on him? I'm not necessarily saying it would work, but I also can't say for sure it wouldn't. As DM said, a lot of the demons are fodder for the Winchesters, but even one of the top Angels thought the Colt would work against Lucifer.

#15 Posted by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

@xanni15 said:

Do we know those besides Lucifer that the Colt wouldn't work on, and do we know why he didn't work on him? I'm not necessarily saying it would work, but I also can't say for sure it wouldn't. As DM said, a lot of the demons are fodder for the Winchesters, but even one of the top Angels thought the Colt would work against Lucifer.

Yes we do, and I would name them but I don't want to spoil it for you! >.<

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#16 Posted by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

@deranged_midget: Do you know why it wouldn't work on him? Is it reasonable to assume it wouldn't work on Satan? Either way, would a binding circle or cage work on Satan?

#17 Posted by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

@xanni15 said:

@deranged_midget: Do you know why it wouldn't work on him? Is it reasonable to assume it wouldn't work on Satan? Either way, would a binding circle or cage work on Satan?

Not sure because they don't work on the highest level of Demons if I recall correctly.

It doesn't work on Lucifer because he's too powerful to be put down by weapons made by mortal beings.

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#18 Edited by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

@xanni15:

not only lucifer but it also doesn't work on several others. i think only death's scythe could work here.

#19 Posted by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

@deranged_midget: If none of those work then there's really nothing the Winchesters can do then, right?

#20 Edited by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio
#21 Posted by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio
#22 Edited by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

@xanni15: Essentially, without additional aid, they are practically useless against the top tiers of demons.

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#23 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

@xanni15 said:

@deranged_midget: @rolldestroyer:

They've got the Colt so why wouldn't it work? They've got prep to do some incantations or make a binding circle. I don't think Satan is going to take two humans seriously.

The colt was assumed to have been destroyed in Season 5 by Lucifer, since it doesn't make any appearances outside that one time they went back in time since.

It doesn't work on Lucifer because he's too powerful to be put down by weapons made by mortal beings.

It worked fine on every demon it's actually been used to lethally wound. The only reason it didn't Lucifer is:

One of the five things in all of creation that it can't kill in Supernatural. The others are likely God, Death, other Archangels, Leviathan and maybe Lilith.

@xanni15 said:

@deranged_midget: Do you know why it wouldn't work on him? Is it reasonable to assume it wouldn't work on Satan? Either way, would a binding circle or cage work on Satan?

Arguably it could work on Satan, but the issue is the lack of them having access to the gun to begin with.

Without assistance from higher level beings or a plot device to pull out of their rears, they die.

#24 Posted by Saren (25621 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't even know who Marduk Krios is, but considering a basic TK push was all Crowley needed to beat Sam and Dean simultaneously, I struggle to believe they'd win here.

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#25 Posted by Saren (25621 posts) - - Show Bio

@xanni15 said:

@deranged_midget: Do you know why it wouldn't work on him? Is it reasonable to assume it wouldn't work on Satan? Either way, would a binding circle or cage work on Satan?

Not sure because they don't work on the highest level of Demons if I recall correctly.

A binding circle worked on Alastair, who was a white-eyed demon and about a peg below Lilith on the hierarchy. But that circle was designed by angels, so meh.

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#26 Edited by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane: It's pretty clear that Dean and Sam aren't knowledgeable on all spells, especially those known by Angels. But as I stated originally, how do we even know that spells and weapons from one Universe would be effective in another whose supernatural are an insane amount more powerful than that of Supernatural's.

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#27 Posted by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke: Actually, Gabriel and Raphael are the exceptions. Michael and Lucifer are the only ones who were stated to be immune to the Colt. The other two beings are obviously obviously God and Death, with the fifth never being mentioned and at this point, I don't think it ever will be.

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#28 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4034 posts) - - Show Bio

The Winchesters are not prep masters, and as you watch the seasons you find out that they only reason they have survived this long is because God has a plan for them. Everything about them from pre-birth to now has been planned out by God. I doubt they get this protection when fighting outside of a place where their God is supreme like when they got pulled into the "real world". The only thing that saved them was magic didn't work so an angel was just like a regular guy, otherwise he would have killed them on the spot. They were prepped for months to fight Lilith and save Dean, and we saw how that worked. They had several plans to stops Lucifer (their Satan) and the only thing that saved them was God. According to the laws of their universe their God has no power outside of the actual universe they live in, so I doubt he can help them fight something beyond his power.

#29 Posted by Dextersinister (6023 posts) - - Show Bio

The Winchesters are not prep masters, and as you watch the seasons you find out that they only reason they have survived this long is because God has a plan for them. Everything about them from pre-birth to now has been planned out by God. I doubt they get this protection when fighting outside of a place where their God is supreme like when they got pulled into the "real world". The only thing that saved them was magic didn't work so an angel was just like a regular guy, otherwise he would have killed them on the spot. They were prepped for months to fight Lilith and save Dean, and we saw how that worked. They had several plans to stops Lucifer (their Satan) and the only thing that saved them was God. According to the laws of their universe their God has no power outside of the actual universe they live in, so I doubt he can help them fight something beyond his power.

I really enjoy the show but I am well aware that they win the vast majority of the fights they are in because PIS. The amount of times a villain has held one by the throat to be stabbed by the other is laughable, imagine if demons carried guns or even a pocket knife. Every major villain up until the crappy Leviathans did not want them dead.

Every threat they have gone up against his had it's weaknesses recorded for them to find.

Crowley wants them dead and has had them at his mercy but just left, I could go on but as I said I still enjoy the show I just don't think very highly of the Winchesters capabilities.

#30 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4034 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans said:

The Winchesters are not prep masters, and as you watch the seasons you find out that they only reason they have survived this long is because God has a plan for them. Everything about them from pre-birth to now has been planned out by God. I doubt they get this protection when fighting outside of a place where their God is supreme like when they got pulled into the "real world". The only thing that saved them was magic didn't work so an angel was just like a regular guy, otherwise he would have killed them on the spot. They were prepped for months to fight Lilith and save Dean, and we saw how that worked. They had several plans to stops Lucifer (their Satan) and the only thing that saved them was God. According to the laws of their universe their God has no power outside of the actual universe they live in, so I doubt he can help them fight something beyond his power.

I really enjoy the show but I am well aware that they win the vast majority of the fights they are in because PIS. The amount of times a villain has held one by the throat to be stabbed by the other is laughable, imagine if demons carried guns or even a pocket knife. Every major villain up until the crappy Leviathans did not want them dead.

Every threat they have gone up against his had it's weaknesses recorded for them to find.

Crowley wants them dead and has had them at his mercy but just left, I could go on but as I said I still enjoy the show I just don't think very highly of the Winchesters capabilities.

Right, I enjoy the show even watch the reruns on TNT, but these guys are just lucky and literally blessed, they should have died seasons ago. One minute a "god" demon or angel is backhanding them across the room and then all of sudden they can wrestle and subdue that same creature enough to kill it.

#31 Posted by Dextersinister (6023 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans: One of the criticisms of the show is the inconsistency of villain power. You've had high level demons challenge angels but when Crowley becomes lord of hell and claim a massive power bump when he was already very strong he still runs from Castiel.

#32 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

@isaac_clarke: Actually, Gabriel and Raphael are the exceptions. Michael and Lucifer are the only ones who were stated to be immune to the Colt. The other two beings are obviously obviously God and Death, with the fifth never being mentioned and at this point, I don't think it ever will be.

You could argue that, but honestly there isn't anything in the series to say this interpretation of Lucifer's words is any better. I'd rather just classify the first beings in creation (God / Death, Leviathan, Lilith, and Archangels) as part of the group that the Colt can't kill. Otherwise the emphasis of season 6 would have been just using some time travel to get back the Colt and blast a hole in Raphael's head in or Lilith's, rather than was something entirely more complicated. Same for season 7 in regards to Leviathan (especially considering killing them consists of BFRing Dick back to Purgatory - as being the closest thing to killing them).

Not that you're interpretation doesn't have merit, as far as the series is concerned - bar simply being much more powerful, Archangels can only go down to either the Arch-Angel blade or potentially a reaper scythe (which is a bit more questionable given season 8 seems to be placing your standard angel-blade as being able to kill reapers without much issue).

The Winchesters are not prep masters, and as you watch the seasons you find out that they only reason they have survived this long is because God has a plan for them. Everything about them from pre-birth to now has been planned out by God. I doubt they get this protection when fighting outside of a place where their God is supreme like when they got pulled into the "real world". The only thing that saved them was magic didn't work so an angel was just like a regular guy, otherwise he would have killed them on the spot. They were prepped for months to fight Lilith and save Dean, and we saw how that worked. They had several plans to stops Lucifer (their Satan) and the only thing that saved them was God. According to the laws of their universe their God has no power outside of the actual universe they live in, so I doubt he can help them fight something beyond his power.

It's arguable if God had any plans for anyone past the Apocalypse. They didn't have months of prep for Lilith, they had a couple of days at the most and lacked the tools to kill Lilith till they nabbed Ruby's knife from her. Outside that, the majority of season 3 was trying to get Dean out of the contract and it wasn't until a handful of episodes before that they found off Lilith was sporting said contracts.

God didn't save anyone from Lucifer, Sam hijacked his own body - after they had nabbed the horseman rings and leaped into a hole. You could argue God, given his dialogue had mentioned he hadn't decided what happens next was manipulating events behind the curtain but we can't be sure of that.

Nothing about the French Mistake says God doesn't have power outside his universe, just that there was a magic-less universe. Raphael had no issues pulling people out of said universe, but the blood goblet magic telephone trick seemed to work fine communicating between universes. Unless that little trick has some power beyond God, there is nothing to say God wouldn't be capable of doing anything he likes in said universe.

You could try using the fact that said weapon-master angel lacked his mojo was a good indication, but it's likely tied more with how Castiel had no power in "The End" episode when apparently Heaven closed shop for said alternate future - cutting him off from his mojo (which apparently restricts the kind of power non- Seraphim or Archangels possess). Castiel for Season Five was pretty limited as a fallen angel according to his own words.

#33 Posted by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

You could argue that, but honestly there isn't anything in the series to say this interpretation of Lucifer's words is any better. I'd rather just classify the first beings in creation (God / Death, Leviathan, Lilith, and Archangels) as part of the group that the Colt can't kill. Otherwise the emphasis of season 6 would have been just using some time travel to get back the Colt and blast a hole in Raphael's head in or Lilith's, rather than was something entirely more complicated. Same for season 7 in regards to Leviathan (especially considering killing them consists of BFRing Dick back to Purgatory - as being the closest thing to killing them).

You could try to argue that yes, despite the fact that it was specified as "beings". Regardless, it's evident that both God and Death are far superior to that of his Archangels, as Lucifer and even the amped up Castiel- who decimated Raphael with a simple flick of his finger, feared Death. If I recall correctly, Litlith was murdered at the end of season 4 so I'm not sure why you keep bringing her up. Even then, Gabriel seemed to fear Lucifer and yes, you could argue that it was merely because as Lucifer stated himself, "I taught you everything I know", but why else would Gabriel be so fearful of him if he were not more powerful in some way or another.

As for the Leviathans, they showed to be mildly superior to average-high tier angels. I don't see why they would be classified as being immune to the Colt when they were eliminated by the combination of a beheading and the odd chemical based substance. Angels were immune to every and any human/demon weapon, save for the specific Angel blade.

Not that you're interpretation doesn't have merit, as far as the series is concerned - bar simply being much more powerful, Archangels can only go down to either the Arch-Angel blade or potentially a reaper scythe (which is a bit more questionable given season 8 seems to be placing your standard angel-blade as being able to kill reapers without much issue).

Reapers early on were shown to be far more powerful than they were represented later on with the introduction of Angels and higher-tier demons. Although, besides Death himself, there was never a differentiating factor of power throughout the Reapers as there is Demons, Angels and other supernatural beings (Alpha's).

No argument in regards to Arch Angels though. They are/were shown to be one of the most powerful beings in the Supernatural universe, possibly even higher than that of the thee other Horseman and quite possibly are the oldest beings beside God and Death.

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#34 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4034 posts) - - Show Bio

@deranged_midget said:

@isaac_clarke: Actually, Gabriel and Raphael are the exceptions. Michael and Lucifer are the only ones who were stated to be immune to the Colt. The other two beings are obviously obviously God and Death, with the fifth never being mentioned and at this point, I don't think it ever will be.

You could argue that, but honestly there isn't anything in the series to say this interpretation of Lucifer's words is any better. I'd rather just classify the first beings in creation (God / Death, Leviathan, Lilith, and Archangels) as part of the group that the Colt can't kill. Otherwise the emphasis of season 6 would have been just using some time travel to get back the Colt and blast a hole in Raphael's head in or Lilith's, rather than was something entirely more complicated. Same for season 7 in regards to Leviathan (especially considering killing them consists of BFRing Dick back to Purgatory - as being the closest thing to killing them).

Not that you're interpretation doesn't have merit, as far as the series is concerned - bar simply being much more powerful, Archangels can only go down to either the Arch-Angel blade or potentially a reaper scythe (which is a bit more questionable given season 8 seems to be placing your standard angel-blade as being able to kill reapers without much issue).

@lordofallhumans said:

The Winchesters are not prep masters, and as you watch the seasons you find out that they only reason they have survived this long is because God has a plan for them. Everything about them from pre-birth to now has been planned out by God. I doubt they get this protection when fighting outside of a place where their God is supreme like when they got pulled into the "real world". The only thing that saved them was magic didn't work so an angel was just like a regular guy, otherwise he would have killed them on the spot. They were prepped for months to fight Lilith and save Dean, and we saw how that worked. They had several plans to stops Lucifer (their Satan) and the only thing that saved them was God. According to the laws of their universe their God has no power outside of the actual universe they live in, so I doubt he can help them fight something beyond his power.

It's arguable if God had any plans for anyone past the Apocalypse. They didn't have months of prep for Lilith, they had a couple of days at the most and lacked the tools to kill Lilith till they nabbed Ruby's knife from her. Outside that, the majority of season 3 was trying to get Dean out of the contract and it wasn't until a handful of episodes before that they found off Lilith was sporting said contracts.

God didn't save anyone from Lucifer, Sam hijacked his own body - after they had nabbed the horseman rings and leaped into a hole. You could argue God, given his dialogue had mentioned he hadn't decided what happens next was manipulating events behind the curtain but we can't be sure of that.

Nothing about the French Mistake says God doesn't have power outside his universe, just that there was a magic-less universe. Raphael had no issues pulling people out of said universe, but the blood goblet magic telephone trick seemed to work fine communicating between universes. Unless that little trick has some power beyond God, there is nothing to say God wouldn't be capable of doing anything he likes in said universe.

You could try using the fact that said weapon-master angel lacked his mojo was a good indication, but it's likely tied more with how Castiel had no power in "The End" episode when apparently Heaven closed shop for said alternate future - cutting him off from his mojo (which apparently restricts the kind of power non- Seraphim or Archangels possess). Castiel for Season Five was pretty limited as a fallen angel according to his own words.

It's not arguable at all, even now after the Apocalypse prophets and tablets are popping up God created those things, and he's God he knows everything, just as Joshua suggested. They did have months of prep, they didn't know it was Lilith but they did know that a demon held the contract, most of the season was trying to get him out of his contract without it killing Sam, not matter what they did Dean still went to hell. Ruby had already helped Bobby rebuild the Colt, so they had more than the knife, until Bella stole it.

Sam didn't have the will power to over power Meg when she possessed him nor did he have the will power to even stop his hunger for demon blood, I somehow doubt he all of sudden could overcome Lucifer. It became clear that God intervened to give Sam that moment of clarity after we find a newly resurrected Castiel.

He had to pull them from his side, he couldn't just open a portal and poof you're home. Virgil even commented on how in that universe people died and that was the end, this would suggest these being were without souls in the way humans in the "regular" universe were which would suggest an absence of God. That goblet thing was bad writing, no mojo means no mojo and when did that become a means of communication that wasn't exclusive to demons? Point is without ignoring that it shouldn't have worked or that only demons have been shown to use it, they really didn't have any way to get the boys back home.

In that alternate reality the Castiel that was there would have been that same one that was slowly turning human and was basically just a human when they faced Lucifer, because he was already cut off from Heaven. He couldn't teleport, insects bites were bothering him etc. The point you are trying to make serves my point that God was not present in that reality, Virgil was not fallen and would have no reason to be cut off from Heaven, unless Heaven and the power that flow threw it just don't exist there. They are multi-dimensional wavelengths that don't lose power in other dimensions, seems to me if they did lose their powers it would be because their father is not present. Their Grace is pure creation, which means it can only come from the creator God, if they are in his creation then why would the part of him that gives them power stop working? I find it very strange that Castiel is the only angel that when "cut off from Heaven" lost power. It may have very well been part of Gods plane to help him with the free will stuff helping him to empathize with how humans can still operate without any assistance from Heaven direct or otherwise, since Anna fell before him and had no problems with her powers as a fugitive from Heaven, same with Balthazar he left Heaven back when angels were still fighting which was a least 2000 years ago and he was just fine. That seemed to be more PIS to keep Bobby crippled. Balthazar traveled through time with no problems twice and as I said Heaven thought he was dead so he wouldn't have had Heavens assistance to make it easier since traveling without Heaven was more difficult then traveling with Heaven.

#35 Posted by isaac_clarke (5448 posts) - - Show Bio

As for the Leviathans, they showed to be mildly superior to average-high tier angels. I don't see why they would be classified as being immune to the Colt when they were eliminated by the combination of a beheading and the odd chemical based substance. Angels were immune to every and any human/demon weapon, save for the specific Angel blade.

Not so much beings, but "things."

But yeah it's true, bar an infusion of souls from Purgatory the clear cut top of the food chain is God and Death, so the colt not killing them is a given. There wasn't any indication of fear on Castiel's part - even Death admits there is nothing he can do to souls in terms of destroying them and at that point Castiel was a walking flood of souls empowering him. Namely why he "decimated" heaven without issue and he was operating at these levels for months.

Yeah apologize for the Lilith portion, I meant Eve (Mother of all monsters). Lucifer was more powerful than Gabriel, that's why Gabriel had to approach him with that Arch-Angel blade, since it was his only method of killing him, the same cannot be said otherwise - but it arguably would have been a simple tap like Michael did with Anna.

The superiority of Leviathans only extended realistically to Garrison level angels (which is still impressive). An extremely worn out Castiel was handling three Leviathan at once, Dick Roman was the only one that was shown to more casually toss a mildly insane Cas aside. So I'd say, Leviathans are somewhere between Garrison level to Seraphim Angels. They weren't eliminated, the was the issue - they would simply be unable to reform because of the efforts by the Winchesters / hunters to keep the body separated from the head. I like to think God gave the Leviathan a bit of a funny weakness like that, regardless Angels despite their overall superiority in a lot of ways (Personally I think Archangels would smoke Leviathan back to purgatory without breaking a sweat) but Leviathan are the clear superiors of survivability - otherwise they wouldn't have annihilated Castiel's Garrison.

Reapers early on were shown to be far more powerful than they were represented later on with the introduction of Angels and higher-tier demons. Although, besides Death himself, there was never a differentiating factor of power throughout the Reapers as there is Demons, Angels and other supernatural beings (Alpha's).

No argument in regards to Arch Angels though. They are/were shown to be one of the most powerful beings in the Supernatural universe, possibly even higher than that of the thee other Horseman and quite possibly are the oldest beings beside God and Death.

That's because they were "death" or the truest extension of death, but most reapers seem to be exactly on par with one another. Demons seem to gain more power over time / souls possessions, Angels were created right off the bat with varying levels of power as they come in a variety of different flavors. Most of the Horsemen, with the exception of Famine, where honestly all weaker than Castiel - so I wouldn't doubt it(and even then that was a play off his vessel, not the Angel).

Either way it's nice to see Angel's, despite what happened at the start of Season 7 - back on top.

It's not arguable at all, even now after the Apocalypse prophets and tablets are popping up God created those things, and he's God he knows everything, just as Joshua suggested. They did have months of prep, they didn't know it was Lilith but they did know that a demon held the contract, most of the season was trying to get him out of his contract without it killing Sam, not matter what they did Dean still went to hell. Ruby had already helped Bobby rebuild the Colt, so they had more than the knife, until Bella stole it.

Sam didn't have the will power to over power Meg when she possessed him nor did he have the will power to even stop his hunger for demon blood, I somehow doubt he all of sudden could overcome Lucifer. It became clear that God intervened to give Sam that moment of clarity after we find a newly resurrected Castiel.

He had to pull them from his side, he couldn't just open a portal and poof you're home. Virgil even commented on how in that universe people died and that was the end, this would suggest these being were without souls in the way humans in the "regular" universe were which would suggest an absence of God. That goblet thing was bad writing, no mojo means no mojo and when did that become a means of communication that wasn't exclusive to demons? Point is without ignoring that it shouldn't have worked or that only demons have been shown to use it, they really didn't have any way to get the boys back home.

In that alternate reality the Castiel that was there would have been that same one that was slowly turning human and was basically just a human when they faced Lucifer, because he was already cut off from Heaven. He couldn't teleport, insects bites were bothering him etc. The point you are trying to make serves my point that God was not present in that reality, Virgil was not fallen and would have no reason to be cut off from Heaven, unless Heaven and the power that flow threw it just don't exist there. They are multi-dimensional wavelengths that don't lose power in other dimensions, seems to me if they did lose their powers it would be because their father is not present. Their Grace is pure creation, which means it can only come from the creator God, if they are in his creation then why would the part of him that gives them power stop working? I find it very strange that Castiel is the only angel that when "cut off from Heaven" lost power. It may have very well been part of Gods plane to help him with the free will stuff helping him to empathize with how humans can still operate without any assistance from Heaven direct or otherwise, since Anna fell before him and had no problems with her powers as a fugitive from Heaven, same with Balthazar he left Heaven back when angels were still fighting which was a least 2000 years ago and he was just fine. That seemed to be more PIS to keep Bobby crippled. Balthazar traveled through time with no problems twice and as I said Heaven thought he was dead so he wouldn't have had Heavens assistance to make it easier since traveling without Heaven was more difficult then traveling with Heaven.

The problem is, that is an assumption. One I don't necessarily agree with since God as Chuck made it sound as if he hadn't decided how the Apocalypse had panned out and it would have been unnecessary for the creation of the tablets if it had gone according to what would have happened (albeit I take the tablets as more of a general what to do - sporting all general information in regards to what they're written on). They only had the colt for a couple of weeks as they tried to find which demon had the contract, they nabbed the knife maybe a couple of days before confronting Lilith. To be honest, they really didn't have much prep on Lilith worth noting and they were discovered relatively quickly and had an inside agent in the form of Ruby likely spill the beans prior.

He was popping in and out of control during the Meg incident as I recall it - but at the time he wasn't sporting gallons of demon blood to enhance himself to fight her off. He got addicted again during the Famine episode and fought it off well enough, and struggled with it only for two episodes of Season 5 really - that isn't so bad compared to season 4. The whole point was when he saw that little figure / all those things in the Impala that it struck a cord in Sam to give him the will to wrest control over Lucifer - who all but turned Sam earlier that episode. Cas was indeed brought back, but that was after Sam had made his choice and tossed Michael and Lucifer back - that much was obvious - God proceeds to jump ship right after - leaving the universe to be. Even Fate had no idea what to do after that - the book as they kept referring to it was torn up, no destiny, no divine control over anything - expect over Castiel's seemingly resurrections.

The thing is, Virgil was still there - still possessing a Vessel - the angel didn't cease being an angel. He simply lost all power, whether that would have happened to Raphael is a bit more questionable - and I don't remember the specific quote from Virgil saying they go no-where post death. I'd have to look into that. Raphael could still use his power to yank them back without using a spell, it's all that Archangel's raw power there and given some of their showings where Gabriel is reality warping without much issue, I'm not convinced they'd be entirely powerless as your standard angel is.

The blood goblet was never exclusive to demons, they just used it as their primary means of communication for a few seasons - there's no reason Angels can't use it. They all seem to sport some measure of knowledge in magic spells or what have you. Either way the angel's seemed relatively aware of said universe and given the Supernatural universe is regarded to have been made by God (according to Lucifer), its a good chance that multiverse they're sporting is in the same boat.

Castiel in season 5 wasn't slowly turning into anything, he was limited as a fallen angel. It wasn't till he decided to carve the angel blood magic thing on his chest that he more or less seemed to depower himself. As far as "the End" Cas was concerned his loss of power was related to Heaven shutting the doors in said future. My point was directed to how, once Angel's get cut off from the main office - completely- they lose their powers - at least in garrison level's case - the Heaven Virgil was a part of wasn't connected to said universe as far as we know and he was more or less separated from it.

Multi-Dimensiona Wavelength of Celestial intent is likely more exclusive to Castiel - since he is a notch above Garrison angel - he's a Seraph (that's confirmed in Purgatory), he was able to retrieve Bobby's soul on his own seemingly instantly from hell, fought his way solo again into Hell to retrieve Sam's body (it took multiple angels just to get Dean out - as far as the series is concerned, right now Seraphs > anything that isn't an archangel). I'm not sure how God and Grace are related, outside it's simply a part of the angel - not necessarily a part of God. It's both Virgil and Castiel that lost their power when cut off from the main source - one going to a parallel universe, the other heaven closing its doors. God himself was living with what remained of humanity in "The End" and that is about as close as an angel can get to his creator (sort of that clear separation between Heaven and God - as far as early season 5 was concerned - Heaven served as a primary reason why Garrison angels could do what they did - without that connection Castiel couldn't even heal a person). Anna was more so in the same position season 5 Castiel was in, just still not as powerful - she can't raise the dead and time-travel is a difficult task for them to do without that connection to Heaven. Balthazar left Heaven when Michael was gone, namely why he stole all of it's weapons - but again he was just like Anna - fallen angel status doesn't remove your angel power from you and Heaven's doors are still open for you.