I say the itachi team wins,, as you can make Tsunade burn through her chawkra pretty quickly and get a bunch of females to distract Jiriaya and we already know itachi > Orochimaru...
Healthy Itachi is basically Edo Itachi, so no hype here
Well ET reduces powers from what I remember with Mads.
and remember a stronger Sage Mode didn't help Naruto with MS Sasuke in the ova,
Super none canon dude lol that's like quoting a movie.
Prime Itachi is above that Sasuke.
Above MS Sasuke to be sure. Bot not EMS Sasuke. His Susanoo is far better.
Jiriaya may have experience, but so does Itachi and Itachi's a genius on top of that, with better hax.
J-man has experience with Uchiha growing up in Konoha but Itachi has no experience with SM. Jiriaya is also a genius & their is no better hack than a long range genjutsu. I'd also point out that Senjutsu is more powerful than Ninjutsu.
Susanoo and Yata Mirror will stop any physical attack Jiriaya's got.
Yata Mirror can only block direct attacks. It's still a shield & falls into the limitations of a shield. Ma & Pa + J-man = multiple angles of attack. Also we saw the Mizukages mist jutsu melt Susanoo. Goeman is more than hot enough to cause Itachi major problems.
Even if Jiriaya stats with the Toad Genjutsu their's no grantee the toads can stop a genjutsu like Izanami, takes them a few seconds to cast it as well, so they can likely be killed in that time.
Izanami is the counter to Izanagi. It has no other purpose.
As for Chibaku Tensei remember Gamabunta got one shotted by a casual Shinra Tensei, Chibaku Tensei required the Kyuubi to break Naruto out.
Buntas Toad Oil blast + Ma Suiton + J-mans Kaaton + Pa Fuuton = bust the CT like Itachi, Bee & Naruto did. They have more than enough power to bust is. A collaboration jutsu or just blasting it would cause massive amounts of damage.
Itachi has stomped orochimaru twice, once while his chakra was incredibly low and orochimaru was in his white hydra form. Not saying he solos but I think Jiraiya is the only threat to him. Sasuke and Kakashi can tag team him, while Itachi solos orochimaru and Tsunade.
Itachi has stomped orochimaru twice, once while his chakra was incredibly low and orochimaru was in his white hydra form. Not saying he solos but I think Jiraiya is the only threat to him. Sasuke and Kakashi can tag team him, while Itachi solos orochimaru and Tsunade.
With previous knowledge is highly unlikely that they will be dumb enough to fall for this, Jiraya (And to be fair, Kakashi) is known for using bunshins in his fights and kawamiri no jutsu a lot, knowing the range and power of those techniques, I really doubt that he would fall for this that easily.
It's not about being dumb, it's about not having what it takes to deal with those attacks. Bunshin and Kawarami both require hand signs. Sasuke's susanoo arrows were too fast for both Kakashi and Danzo to dodge, in fact they were to fast for them to even use hand signs and I haven't see much from base Jiraiya to suggest he is faster than either. Sure his sage mode may be, but given how long it takes him to enter sage mode I don't see it being much of an issue.
Itachi didn't speedblitzed Orochimaru, Orochimaru was inside of Sasuke and didn't knew that the sword could seal him, he didn't needed to dodge until it was too late, here its another story, they all know about the Totsuka Sword and the Mirror, and they wouldn't fall for this.
Depending on how you interpret it, Itachi pretty much totsuka blitzed Orochimaru. While It's true that Orochimaru wasn't in a position to dodge, it's made clear that the sword was too fast for him to notice the stab :
Not that he needs to blitz him. As long as he manages to tag him once it will be over.
Again, the Kamui needs time to activate, if it was instantaneous, Kakashi would just head-snipe everyone, and wouldn't have problems against opponents that have wide-range techniques. With Jiraya and Orochimaru here, he wouldn't even be able to hide.
That's not true, Kakashi was able to instantly activate Kamui on multiple occasions. He can use his Kamui whenever he needs to as long as the target is small enough (Against Pain, Against Susanoo arrows, Against the lightning Kunais, Against Naruto's clones etc).
The snakes, frogs and Katsuyu are just a bonus, they can be used to keep Kakashi busy (They are FAR from being fodder to him, the frogs in special have a huge arsenal of fire and water jutsus of insanely wide range).
The summons can simply get Genjutsu'd.
Orochimaru also doesn't need to use the sacrifices at the time, he have a lot of bodies and ninjas at his disposal, and he instantly summoned the Kages without needing to sacrifice someone in the middle of the fight.
Orochimaru had prep against the 3rd, he prepared the Edos before starting the fight.
With Kakashi out, we must consider that Tsunade had enough strenght to rip through Madara's Susanoo, which is confirmed to be way more durable than Sasuke's one. If we go by 1-HitKill moves, then you should mention some jutsus in Orochimaru's arsenal. If Jiraya close the gap with anyone of them, he have at least 3 BFR jutsus that he can use without prepping.
Tsunade is too slow to be a factor here. She either gets Kamui sniped, totsuka blitzed or even Amaterasu'd as soon as needed. What are those jutsu's in Orochimaru and Jiraiya's arsenal though ?
@keehn93: Kabuto brought back his Edo Tensei around their prime.
Yes the Ova is not canon, but it was made to show what a fight between Naruto and Sasuke would look like at the time. EMS Sasuke has a stronger Susanoo, but Itachi has way better hax, so would still say Itachi > EMS Sasuke based on intellect as well.
Now with Senjutsu, it's not necessarily more powerful, more exotic and that's it was used for plot purposes. We also don't know if Jiriaya even fought an uchiha, let alone a MS user, which are very few in number throughout history.
Here's the synopsis of the Yata Mirror.
Goeman could melt Susanoo, but it would ineffective against Yata Mirror. They would have to hit him from a very weird angle, given Itachi's agility.on top of Yata Mirror and Susanoo keeping him safe.
As for Izanami yes, it's the counter to Izanagi that's the main reason it was made, but it can be used on anybody just like izanagi, with full knowledge here, Itachi can sacrifice an eye and one shot any of the Sannin he chooses.
On a side note: Itachi, Bee & Naruto >>> Jiraiya and his toads. Remember the Black Orb can be released anywhere, Kabuto made Edo Nagato release the orb right above them, so itachi, Bee & Naruto were able to bust it. Pain released the Black Orb away from Naruto in their fight and Jiraiya wouldn't know what it is anyway.
Kabuto brought back his Edo Tensei around their prime.
But not quite to it as we saw with Madara. Living Madara even before he gained Hashiramas senjutsu chakra surpassed ET Madara.
Yes the Ova is not canon, but it was made to show what a fight between Naruto and Sasuke would look like at the time. EMS Sasuke has a stronger Susanoo, but Itachi has way better hax, so would still say Itachi > EMS Sasuke based on intellect as well.
What could Itachi really do to Sasuke? Tsukuyomi won't work as he has defended it without EMS. Susanoo won't work as Sasukes Susanoo is better equip for battle (Enton orb, Enton Arrow, Enton Sword & Shield > Totsuka blade, Yata mirror & Ranged shuriken like attack). Amaterasu won't help him as Sasuke has blaze release. Sasuke completely dwarfs him in terms of chakra/stamina & would likely dwarf him still even if Itachi was healthy. Itachi does have better skills & intelligence but Sasuke would not be put down by whatever Itachi could do. Eventually Itachi would wear or go blind as he does not have EMS. So EMS Sasuke >>>> Itachi.
Now with Senjutsu, it's not necessarily more powerful, more exotic and that's it was used for plot purposes. We also don't know if Jiriaya even fought an uchiha, let alone a MS user, which are very few in number throughout history.
He doesn't have to fight an Uchiha. He grew up in a time where the Uchiha where numerous in Konoha. He grew up pre Uchiha massacre.
As for Senjutsu it seems you have some misconceptions. Senjutsu not only increases the amount of chakra but also the potency. Senjutsu >>>>>> Ninjutsu.
Goeman could melt Susanoo, but it would ineffective against Yata Mirror. They would have to hit him from a very weird angle, given Itachi's agility.on top of Yata Mirror and Susanoo keeping him safe.
Goeman is liquid. It could hit Yata mirror & surround Susanoo while melting it. Also while using Susanoo (upper body version) no character has shown to be agile. They fight relatively stationary they can move but it's never very fast.
As for Izanami yes, it's the counter to Izanagi that's the main reason it was made, but it can be used on anybody just like izanagi, with full knowledge here, Itachi can sacrifice an eye and one shot any of the Sannin he chooses.
But what would it's effect be on someone not using Izanagi? Even in Anime flash backs we've only seen it used as a counter to Izanagi.
On a side note: Itachi, Bee & Naruto >>> Jiraiya and his toads. Remember the Black Orb can be released anywhere, Kabuto made Edo Nagato release the orb right above them, so itachi, Bee & Naruto were able to bust it. Pain released the Black Orb away from Naruto in their fight and Jiraiya wouldn't know what it is anyway.
You're low balling J-man again. Itachi didn't know what it was but he was able to devise how to break out. Jiriaya, Oro, Kakashi, Hiruzen, Tobirama, Minato, Tsunade or any other intelligent ninja would likely come to the same conclusion under the same circumstances. Itachi isn't the only intelligent Ninja in Naruto.
Also Collaboration Sage arts are more than enough to bust CT. Likely a BB would be enough to break out on it's own. Bee was the heaviest hitter by a long shot out of him, Itachi & Naruto at the time.
@keehn93: I just see Izanami trolling Sasuke or Sword of Totsuka sealing him and his susanoo like Orochimaru and his giant 8 headed White Snake.
Back on topic:
I don't see the Sannin winning here, Jiraiya's Sage Mode is garbage compared to Naruto's and Kabuto's. The Toad Genjutsu is their only hope here, and with full knowledge they will go after the toads like Pain did against Naruto. Yata mirror can alter it's attributes in accordance with the attributes of Jiraiya's attacks, even liquid. Team Sharingan has two Susanoo's, Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi to throw at them. As well as ultimate attacks like Kamui, Izanami and Sword of Totsuka. With all those variables Sannin are losing way more times then not.
I just see Izanami trolling Sasuke or Sword of Totsuka sealing him and his susanoo like Orochimaru and his giant 8 headed White Snake.
Back on topic:
good deal.
I don't see the Sannin winning here, Jiraiya's Sage Mode is garbage compared to Naruto's and Kabuto's.
Untrue. J-Mans Sage Mode is superior based on the fact that he has more support than the other 2. His abilities are boosted by collaboration ninjutsu where as Kabuto doesn't have that kind of training (that he's displayed) & Naruto relies on Rasengan completely. Also J-man has more versatility & better Frog Kata feats than Naruto.
The Toad Genjutsu is their only hope here, and with full knowledge they will go after the toads like Pain did against Naruto.
Frog song can have combat applications like how Ma & Pa used it on the Summons. Itachi doesn't have a way to block sound as we saw Susanoo won't block it.
Yata mirror can alter it's attributes in accordance with the attributes of Jiraiya's attacks, even liquid.
Aye. It can. When it takes the attack head on. However Yata mirror falls into the weaknesses of every shield it can only block in one direction. Once Goemans liquid surrounds every bit of surface area of Itachis Susanoo it's going to melt & J-man is going to blind side him with a Giant Rasengan effectively disabling him.
Team Sharingan has two Susanoo's, Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi to throw at them. As well as ultimate attacks like Kamui, Izanami and Sword of Totsuka. With all those variables Sannin are losing way more times then not.
Frog Song takes out all enemies. As does Reaper Death Seal from Oro.
Kamui isn't landing as Kakashi has never taken out high level enemies with it. Theoretically it's an awesome technique but from everything we've seen it's to hard to control.
Tsuna can break Susanoo & boost her allies Ninjutsu tenfold as she did with Oonoki. That means she can boost attacks like Goeman which is already a large scale jutsu to the point where it would completely emerge the Sharingan wielders. Lady Katsuya can cause major damage with her acid.
Team Sannin is slower & has less one shot kills but what they have in spades is team work & attacks that will control the pace of the battle.
Team Sharingan will lose because although they are heavy hitters they all have relatively weak chakras & stamina.
@keehn93: I believe it's been stated that Naruto's Sage Mode is more powerful and versatile then his master's. Jiraiya never finished his training on Mount Myōboku. Anyways you make it sound like the team will just sit there while Goemans liquid surrounds them, hell even if they do that they will just reform their Susanoo's and go on the attack. Kamui is a huge problem for them, Kakashi used it on way stronger opponents like Obito and Juubi Madara and even Kaguya after he got his power up.
Your'e also forgetting the drawbacks to the toad song as well.
1. Their throats get dry, so they can't spam it.
2. It gives away their location
3. Takes too much time.
Even when they gave it their best, they only beat some animal paths and one Pain Path. With full knowledge Team Sharingan will kill them first.
As for Izanami yes, it's the counter to Izanagi that's the main reason it was made, but it can be used on anybody just like izanagi, with full knowledge here, Itachi can sacrifice an eye and one shot any of the Sannin he chooses.
But what would it's effect be on someone not using Izanagi? Even in Anime flash backs we've only seen it used as a counter to Izanagi.
I just feel like I should clarify a bit. Izanami is not a counter to Izanagi, it's meant to stop people from using it to run away from their problems. And it was used against Kabuto in it's debut, and he certainly wasn't using Izanagi.
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Not saying it would work (Also not saying it wouldn't) but it can be used against people not using Izanagi. As it was developed not as a counter, so much as a forced change of their ways by trapping them until they accepted their own imperfections (As Izanagi led almost every Uchiha to use it, to believe they were perfect because of Izanagi, this is why it worked against Kabuto, because he couldn't accept his imperfections)
I believe it's been stated that Naruto's Sage Mode is more powerful and versatile then his master's. Jiraiya never finished his training on Mount Myōboku.
Aye. Jiriaya has not finished his training. Yet Ma & Pa have. They combine their chakras. Bi-passing the need to finish his senjutsu chakra balance training.
Anyways you make it sound like the team will just sit there while Goemans liquid surrounds them, hell even if they do that they will just reform their Susanoo's and go on the attack.
& You make it sound like Goeman would be the end game. More likely scenario would be.
Tsuna attacks creating a crater.
Oro uses triple Rashoman surrounding the crater.
J-man uses Goeman filling the crater while Oro & Tsuna prevent Itachi, Sasuke or Kakashi from getting out. Oro has a Fuuton jutsu he used to in the forrest of death for this. Tsuna get just hit them. J-man has Katon, Fuuton, Suiton, Nido Jizo or Rasengan.
Kamui is a huge problem for them, Kakashi used it on way stronger opponents like Obito and Juubi Madara and even Kaguya after he got his power up.
No it isn't. Dude that scan is of him using it on an ally. Show me a scan of him hitting a Kage level opponent with it. Also that is Kamui from Obito & Kakashi. Not just Kakashi.
Your'e also forgetting the drawbacks to the toad song as well.
1. Their throats get dry, so they can't spam it.
2. It gives away their location
3. Takes too much time.
3 on 3 with no Intel. Oro & Tsuna would be able to hold them off for a few minutes. Location doesn't matter. It instantly traps all enemies within range.
Even when they gave it their best, they only beat some animal paths and one Pain Path. With full knowledge Team Sharingan will kill them first.
Naruto wouldn't have beaten any of them without the intel Jiriaya gathered. He's the reason why that fight was winnable.
Now what it seems like is you don't seem to know why Itachi knew that Jiriaya would beat him (even though Itachi has MS at the time & he didn't even know about SM).
1 - He's far stronger than Naruto naturally. In SM he is a powerhouse.
2 - He has some of the most Ninjutsu & Senjutsu techniques in the Manga giving him far more versatility than anyone on team Sharingan. On top of all this Ma & Pa have their own lethal Senjutsu attacks.
3 - He's fast enough to blitz the paths in SM causing massive damage with Frog kata. He also attacks the blind side with wide angle attacks like Nindo Senbon which needs to be blocked not dodged. He is by far the fastest member of either team in SM.
4 - He doesn't need to charge his big ball Rasengan which will bust up Susanoo.
5 - His Taijutsu skill dwarf everyone other than Tsunas on these 2 teams.
@thevivas: Why would he even have the time? He has no speed feats to suggest he wouldn't get blitzed by any of his opponents. Only Orochimaru does and that's only talking about Sasuke and Kakashi seeing as Itachi already blitzed him.
Kakashi's Kamui and Obito's are the same, they both used it to stop moving truth seeking balls, way above Kage Level.
2 eyes is fast. 1 Eye is slow. Both eyes where working together. Kakashi only has the one eye.
You're scenario sounds cool, as long as they sit there lol.
Or as long as they are forced into that situation.
Orochimaru has been one shotted by Itachi on two separate occasions in powered up forms.
Aye with no intel the first time & just as he got reborn the second. Now Oro has intel where as before he underestimated Itachis abilities.
Tsunade couldn't even beat Base Kabuto or fight Deva Path to save the village until Naruto got there.
Naruto had intel from Katsuya & Jiriaya. Ontop of all that he had massive amounts of prep while Tsuna was off guard. Tsuna wasn't near her peak when she got beat up by Kabuto but that all changed when she got serious didn't it.
And again the Toads have only beaten some fodder animal paths and only helped Jiraiya beat one Pain path.
Pa was able to go toe to toe with Naruto using Frog Kata. Ma & Pa beat all the Paths that J-man killed. Frog song.
Orochimaru is a very tricky character to debate. We honestly don't know what he is capable of at full power as he:
1. Divided portions of his chakra into all his students' curse seals.
2. Was never in a ideal host body.
3. Lost his arms early on.
We can really only speculate how powerful he was/is at peak levels. The same can be said for Itachi as well.
You know, I read somewhere that Oro was still evil. I forgot where and I doubt there's anything to substantiate that, but I think he may be the villain in the movie with Naruto's son. Maybe we'll see full power Oro in the manga.
Either any of the Sharingan users beat any of the Sannin.
Healthy Itachi>Jiraiya
Sasuke>>Orochimaru
Kakashi>>>Tsunade
Kakashi just Kamui snipes Jiraiya right off the bat and Tsunade gets split in half again and Orochimaru gets fodderized by Itachi like the last ten times.
@keehn93: Both Kakashi and Obito had one Sharingan eye each at the time. Kakashi has other feats as well that put him at least at kage level if you want to see.
The Sannin won't be forcing anybody here into to that bad situation since their outclassed.
Not only are Team Sharingan more powerful, but a great team as well, especially with prep. Itachi and Kakashi were even in the Anbu Black Ops at the same time and with Sasuke knowing both well makes this team beast with prep. Orochimaru and especially Tsunade have noway of defeating the Sharingan users one on one without help from Jiraiya and his toads.
Itachi solos. A single finger point could honestly do it.
Ignoring the fact the only person he caught in the genjutsu was early Shippuden Naruto? Sakura, Chiyo and Kakashi all avoided it.
They didn't look and weren't in front of him at the time. Plus Naruto used Jiraiya's method and still couldn't break out and Chiyo specifically said 'this is why you don't fight Uchiha alone' or something similar. Plus the real issue is that none of the Sannin have genjutsu defense and Orochimaru was stomped by 11 year old Itachi's genjutsu.
Itachi solos. A single finger point could honestly do it.
Ignoring the fact the only person he caught in the genjutsu was early Shippuden Naruto? Sakura, Chiyo and Kakashi all avoided it.
They didn't look and weren't in front of him at the time. Plus Naruto used Jiraiya's method and still couldn't break out and Chiyo specifically said 'this is why you don't fight Uchiha alone' or something similar. Plus the real issue is that none of the Sannin have genjutsu defense and Orochimaru was stomped by 11 year old Itachi's genjutsu.
Kakashi went toe to toe, right in front of Kakashi and he wasn't caught by the finger genjutsu.
Non-ocular genjutsu's aren't that great. Even Kurenai uses them.
I agree Team 2 wins, but Itachi can't solo all 3 of them.
Itachi solos. A single finger point could honestly do it.
Ignoring the fact the only person he caught in the genjutsu was early Shippuden Naruto? Sakura, Chiyo and Kakashi all avoided it.
They didn't look and weren't in front of him at the time. Plus Naruto used Jiraiya's method and still couldn't break out and Chiyo specifically said 'this is why you don't fight Uchiha alone' or something similar. Plus the real issue is that none of the Sannin have genjutsu defense and Orochimaru was stomped by 11 year old Itachi's genjutsu.
Kakashi went toe to toe, right in front of Kakashi and he wasn't caught by the finger genjutsu.
Non-ocular genjutsu's aren't that great. Even Kurenai uses them.
I agree Team 2 wins, but Itachi can't solo all 3 of them.
Kurenai almost solo'd Kisame with it. And the 2nd Mizukage used it to nearly solo a good amount of the entire Shinobi Alliance.
Itachi can in fact solo. Orochimaru has a weakness to genjutsu, Jiraiya's method already failed, and Tsunade has no feats to say she can break out (plus she's really really slow).
Itachi solos. A single finger point could honestly do it.
Ignoring the fact the only person he caught in the genjutsu was early Shippuden Naruto? Sakura, Chiyo and Kakashi all avoided it.
They didn't look and weren't in front of him at the time. Plus Naruto used Jiraiya's method and still couldn't break out and Chiyo specifically said 'this is why you don't fight Uchiha alone' or something similar. Plus the real issue is that none of the Sannin have genjutsu defense and Orochimaru was stomped by 11 year old Itachi's genjutsu.
Kakashi went toe to toe, right in front of Kakashi and he wasn't caught by the finger genjutsu.
Non-ocular genjutsu's aren't that great. Even Kurenai uses them.
I agree Team 2 wins, but Itachi can't solo all 3 of them.
Kurenai almost solo'd Kisame with it. And the 2nd Mizukage used it to nearly solo a good amount of the entire Shinobi Alliance.
Itachi can in fact solo. Orochimaru has a weakness to genjutsu, Jiraiya's method already failed, and Tsunade has no feats to say she can break out (plus she's really really slow).
Jiraya's method may not have fully worked, but only because a weaker version of Naruto was using it.
Even then, when caught in the finger jutsu, Naruto resisted Itachi's sleep command.
Also, in the Itachi Pursuit Mission Arc, Naruto and Itachi both dispelled Itachi's genjutsu.
Itachi solos. A single finger point could honestly do it.
Ignoring the fact the only person he caught in the genjutsu was early Shippuden Naruto? Sakura, Chiyo and Kakashi all avoided it.
They didn't look and weren't in front of him at the time. Plus Naruto used Jiraiya's method and still couldn't break out and Chiyo specifically said 'this is why you don't fight Uchiha alone' or something similar. Plus the real issue is that none of the Sannin have genjutsu defense and Orochimaru was stomped by 11 year old Itachi's genjutsu.
Kakashi went toe to toe, right in front of Kakashi and he wasn't caught by the finger genjutsu.
Non-ocular genjutsu's aren't that great. Even Kurenai uses them.
I agree Team 2 wins, but Itachi can't solo all 3 of them.
Kurenai almost solo'd Kisame with it. And the 2nd Mizukage used it to nearly solo a good amount of the entire Shinobi Alliance.
Itachi can in fact solo. Orochimaru has a weakness to genjutsu, Jiraiya's method already failed, and Tsunade has no feats to say she can break out (plus she's really really slow).
Jiraya's method may not have fully worked, but only because a weaker version of Naruto was using it.
Even then, when caught in the finger jutsu, Naruto resisted Itachi's sleep command.
Also, in the Itachi Pursuit Mission Arc, Naruto and Itachi both dispelled Itachi's genjutsu.
I only remember Naruto being immediately caught by Itachi's genjutsu and having a crow shoved down his throat. And Kakashi literally has more genjutsu feats than the sannin combined.
I'll be honest with you, I've experienced the rivalry of Jman and Itachi in the front lines for years. It's hinted that they're near equals in strength, particularly when comparing a sick Itachi; but their are too many strong arguments in favor of him one-shotting, let a alone scraping a hard fought win.
The Swamp of the Underworld is a Jiraya fan favorite, but it's not anywhere close to being infallible and never hyped as such. What's interesting is the trend of people who use this as a one stop argument that don't know the most basic characteristics of this technique (i'll give you the benefit of the doubt). The same people tend to assume it doesn't have any known weaknesses, even when the most obvious weakness is that it's an earth style attack, which can be nullified by lightning.
Outside of this, the properties of the Sharingan give users some advantages against the swamp (or generally any elemental attack) .The first being general precognition, the second being the ability to tell the nature of certain attacks before their opponent has casted them and the final which allows them to see the image of an attacker's next move from the slightest muscle tension in their body and counter-attack or dodge without any wasted movement; which includes hand seals.
With this in mind, Itachi, Sasuke and Kakashi will respectively know what type of attack or which attack he's using before Jiraya makes a single hand sign. Recognizing straight away that it's an earth ability they will react accordingly. The sharingan even let's them see the swamp forming in slow motion when casted.
As I said before, team sharingan has two very skilled lightning users who can negate it; but there's also a possibility of them simply jumping out the way before the attack surfaces. Another possibility is that Kakashi who already has skill using earth attacks, replicating it before Jiraya can finish and use it to sink him and others.
Another argument that comes up, is that any Sharingan user could predict the attack before hand, and then expel enough chakra to their feet and float above the swamp. The density of the swamp might actually make it easier for them to float above it compared to water.
Tactically speaking, it would not be in Jiraya's best interest to even reveal an elemental attack of this caliber to a sharingan wielding enemy. Even after showing them once, the opposing team now have that jutsu in their arsenal. Itachi's handseal speed is described as being a blur to Kakashi's sharingan and to shinobi with regular eyes it appeared as if he wasn't making any seals at all.
I've noticed that you don't think the frog song can be countered by the opposing team either, I'll just leave this scan here then.
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As for my Itachi vs Jiraya Argment...
First, if Jiraiya summon an army on top of Ma and Pa, Itachi can dodge a toad army all day like Naraka who Konohamaru was keeping up with. Secondly, Itachi has long-range genjutsu to manipulate multiple targets, or he controls summons with the Sharingan power that Minato needed a unique seal placed on the controller to counter. Sasuke directly stated that Itachi had this ability, but that it was stronger than his own at the time, being able to control the Nine Tails. It is the same ability, according to the databook, and common misnomer is that the power is an illusion, or that the summons are being tricked, is incorrect. The databook and Manda indicate that it isn't a trick, but a raw control:
Originally Posted by Databook III
[Eye power]
The main reason why the "Sharingan" was feared by everyone, including the inhabitants of the village, is the power hidden in those eyes, able to subdue even "bijuu". Sasuke, who is rapidly mastering his skills as an Uchiha, is also gradually awakening to that cursed power.(balloons: "Those eyes... How did you dare... control me... with those eyes...!") The ultimate power of the "Sharingan", that once could tame even the "Kyuubi". A portion of it is visible in Sasuke when he is able to control Manda.
As for the hyped Food Cart Destroyer or Yomi Numa for that matter, please note: Jiriaya said that his senbon technique was his fastest attack that covered a large range i.e. his hardest jutsu to evade. The databook text of Food Cart Destroyer does say "right above". However, it means right above as "in a straight line above". The Japanese word is 真上 (ma-ue). There is no implication of distance, other than the mentioned several hundred-foot dive. This is why it has only ever been used on giant creatures, and not tiny ninja, because the ninja have a great deal more time to react. Moreover, the Sharingan determines the particulars of a technique, and would see it coming. Moreover, Jiriaya, like Killer Bee, is an in-character goof, and if by some miracle he achieves Hermit Mode, Itachi is able to control Ma and Pa to kill Jiraiya since their willpower is almost certainly less than the Nine Tailed Fox. But lets say Jiraiya starts in Hermit Mode, and that Itachi can't control Fukasaku to remove Jiriaya's head.
Jiriaya's detection barrier is a banner for pro-Jiriaya arguers, but they frequently ignore that Jiraiya himself said that it's a poor substitute for eyesight and without knowing Gai's special method he has to do what everyone has had to do. Either not look at Itachi at all, or look at Itachi's eyes (or fingers.) Having inferior intellect and knowledge of genjutsu to Orochimaru will come in handy here. But if Ma and Pa, who aren't being controlled for plot reasons, break him out, realize that it still took time for even the Hachibi to break weaker genjutsu, and even small and weak genjutsu can be deadly when applied with intelligence However, Jiriaya might as well instantly reflect all of Itachi's genjutsu back on to Itachi for all the good it will do him against the rest of Itachi's arsenal.
There are some key things everybody ignores about this feat. The Raikage spent time building bijuu amounts of chakra for a shunshin that Karin and C noticed. Secondly, the Raikage was tipped off by staring at Sasuke's eyes. Neither of these are likely for Jiraiya who will probably be in mid-Ginyu-Pose. As a tertiary point, it's highly unlikely that Jiraiya can even match A's ushrouded reflexes. And as a quaternary point, Itachi's Amaterasu burns hotter than Sasuke's thus far, and was activated while running at full speed towards a wall five feet away. And then, his ultimate jutsu:
It's a common mistake to assume Susano'o is a primarily defensive jutsu. It's not. The databook first and foremost hypes the perfect flawlessness in offense that presumably surpasses his other two techniques. It caught Orochimaru in between words, right in front of him, without him even noticing, when other speed demons get whole sentences off. Kakashi and Danzō had to use instant jutsu to deflect Susano'o attacks because they were so fast. If Jiraiya is in the vicinity when it's activated, or if he thinks he break through it, then he's dead. It's also the best defensive jutsu in the manga, changing nature and shape to allegedly counter any jutsu.
Jiriaya does not behave like a genius. He will most likely not make an immediate tactical retreat for Hermit Mode, as Gamaken was simply losing ground while engaging, and Jiriaya is the guy who hopped on Orochimaru's summon to fight him. He will most likely not make a combat team of Kage Bunshin when it would have helped him fight against Pain instead of using one as a momentary distraction. On the other hand, Itachi most likely will use genjutsu, and his Mangekyō Sharingan techniques, which Jiraiya can't answer to. Jiraiya needs to be smarter than Itachi to have a chance of winning... but he's not.
@redranger: .......yeah, that whole...whatchmacallit post was not necessary. Lol
The swamp is actually an earth release jutsu, therefore strong against water but has a natural weakness to lightning style attacks/defenses.
I am aware of this, but that doesn't answer how lightning style jutsus nullify a swamp.
The Swamp of the Underworld is a Jiraya fan favorite, but it's not anywhere close to being infallible and never hyped as such. What's interesting is the trend of people who use this as a one stop argument that don't know the most basic characteristics of this technique (i'll give you the benefit of the doubt). The same people tend to assume it doesn't have any known weaknesses, even when the most obvious weakness is that it's an earth style attack, which can be nullified by lightning.
Again, how is a Chidori going to nullify a swamp?
Outside of this, the properties of the Sharingan give users some advantages against the swamp (or generally any elemental attack) .The first being general precognition, the second being the ability to tell the nature of certain attacks before their opponent has casted them and the final which allows them to see the image of an attacker's next move from the slightest muscle tension in their body and counter-attack or dodge without any wasted movement; which includes hand seals.
You mean, if they can see him.
With this in mind, Itachi, Sasuke and Kakashi will respectively know what type of attack or which attack he's using before Jiraya makes a single hand sign.
Again, if they can see him.
The density of the swamp might actually make it easier for them to float above it compared to water.
Or they would drown in it, or at least have it cover them as it covered a good portion of Manda.
I've noticed that you don't think the frog song can be countered by the opposing team either, I'll just leave this scan here then.
I am also aware of that. And no, I never said Frog Song can't be countered.
Team 2 is pretty OP, the triple sharingan, the Susano, and Itachi's multifarious jutsu are formidable, but it's worth considering what makes the Sannin incredible; unlike Itachi and Sasuke (and to some extent Kakashi, although not entirely), all of the Sannin worked to create their skillset and abilities independently without generational or hereditary skills. Itachi and Sasuke without their sharingan birthright are hardly a worthy opponent, while Jiraiya, Orochimaru, and Tsunade (although Tsunade is Senju I suppose) possess no special genetic skills and enhanced their techniques individually as no other ninja had done before, earning them the title of the "Legendary 3." Now, of course, that alone doesn't qualify them against the ridiculously powered up Uchiha abilities, but the Sannin are "legendary" warriors of tremendous skill - they had gained fame before the nine tails attack and the annihilation of the Uchiha, which means they'd seen their share of unique and powerful warriors and were all familiar with the sharingan at least at the base level.
This isn't to limit the ridiculous power of Itachi, Sasuke, and Itachi together; this team would be almost unbeatable in my mind. The sharingan's just basic abilities are OP, added with the prodigy-skill of Itachi, Kakashi's copy ninjutsu and Sasuke's talent and they would be almost undefeated. Almost...
The Sannin are built to be almost the most powerful team (if not the most powerful) in the Naruto universe ; part of the significance of their story is that they never could work together forever, just like team 7 in modern times. If they could have, they would have be the most unstoppable team and could have prevented many issues from happening (Minato and the 3rd were able to ultimately stop the 9 tails and Tobi from finishing their plan, imagine if all 3 Sannin were present {and a complete team} when it happened -they would have been simply unbeatable).
Itachi's skillset is a real issue for them, but the over-emphasis on the Totsuka blade is ridiculous - consider when it was actually used against Orochimaru: Orochi was not in his normal form, he was basically a Tumor on Sasuke, and could basically do nothing but just wait to be hit as he got absorbed. Orochimaru at full power, with Jiraiya and Tsunade backing him up, would not easily be hit by this again. It's an incredible powerful technique, to be sure, but it's much more difficult to hit with than people suggest - there's a reason Itachi couldn't use this all the damn time.
Kakashi is very powerful, but Jiraiya himself states that Kabuto could go toe-to-toe with Kakashi in early Naruto- granted, he gains a lot of power and Kamui is a huge boost, but I don't think his sharingan abilities boost him to legendary Sannin status so quickly - he was petrified of Orochimaru and had great respect for Jiraiya and Tsunade.
Also, last word, Tsunade is getting too much hate. I admit, she seems to be weak based on her early feats, but YOU GUYS SHE CUT MADARA'S SUSANO WITH HER HAND THAT WAS CRAZY. She deserves more credibility, she earned the title of Sannin and 5th Hokage.
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