#201 Posted by Petey_is_Spidey (2763 posts) - - Show Bio

@petey_is_spidey said:

Stop the fanboyism.

Oh, the irony! It's the height of fanboyism to claim that SS can defeat ZH Parallax. Seriously, go make that thread. See how quickly it gets locked. Go on, do it!

Hal would snap his fingers and remove him from the universe like he did Kyle Rayner when he tried to sneak up on Hal during Zero Hour.

@petey_is_spidey said:

And there is no DEFINITE proof that Hal destroyed everyone in the Universe, just the Universe it self, and that is even questionable. For all we know he could have transported it.

There is definite proof, it's called Zero Hour. If you didnt read it then why are you making claims about it? Hal destroyed the entire DC universe except for the people he took with him and Spectre.

@petey_is_spidey said:

Void destroyed Molecule Man, and beyonder is a reality warper who has the ability to destroy the universe.

Beyonder??? He's not even in this fight, so why are you bringing him up?

In the third comment about Beyonder, I meant to say Molecule Man took on Beyonder, who was beat by Void, who is a reality warper.

#202 Posted by Petey_is_Spidey (2763 posts) - - Show Bio

Does anyone know how fast sun dipped supes is? He was comparable to flash beforehand, so....wouldn't he be almost as fast with the power boost? N if regular supes can bench a planet before flexing and smashing it to bits, then I'd imagine sun dipped could dash in with the flash and absolutely murder the hulk and tag team IM punch Thor to oblivion...fast as he may be he ain't that fast. IM punch is the tact nuke of comics lol and multiples? Forget it. Femtos and parallax should be able to hold off strange and Scarlett while the speedsters systematically wipe out the remainders and punch away magic barriers. Silver surfer realizes its another DC vs Marvel thread and gets the hell out of there

It's been proven that physical damage would have little to no effect on this Thor.

#203 Posted by hardcorefakes (691 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor fanboys vs Wally wankers.

With the occasional Surfer supporter trying to pipe in.

That's all this thread is.

Make it end......

#204 Posted by schillenger420 (816 posts) - - Show Bio

Surfer keeps Wally at bay by absorbing his kinetic energy just long enough for Scarlet Witch to one-shot everyone with some kind of, "No Powers For YOU!!!" curse and this fights over. That's how I write it anyway. Might anger some folks but the way her powers work literally anything is possible. It's all in the author.

#205 Edited by hardcorefakes (691 posts) - - Show Bio

Surfer keeps Wally at bay by absorbing his kinetic energy just long enough for Scarlet Witch to one-shot everyone with some kind of, "No Powers For YOU!!!" curse and this fights over. That's how I write it anyway. Might anger some folks but the way her powers work literally anything is possible. It's all in the author.

..But Superman who has dipped for 3 days would rip Surfer to pieces. You can't control Wally if you're already dead.

#206 Edited by BigCimmerian (7849 posts) - - Show Bio

Why is this even debatable? Who on the Marvel team can destroy the universe and create a new one?

Hal Jordan Parallax, especially bloodlusted, solo's this. The rest of the DC team isnt needed. What are RKT and Dr Strange going to do to him that a pissed off Spectre couldnt?

Punch him into abdomen.

#207 Posted by hardcorefakes (691 posts) - - Show Bio

Aquaman and Superman have no place in the DC side. Avengers stomp. Wally can't take them all you know :P

LMAO.

Somebody who clearly has absolutely no idea they're talking about.

Why is Wally such a huge factor here? I'd say he's less of a factor than dipped Supes. Stop wanking.

And don't forget about Fernus. Stop discrediting all the other members because you love Wally so much.

#208 Posted by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@elzio1 said:

Leaning more towards the JLA, Wally will certainly kick some ass here, but it could go either way

JLA takes the majority by a very slight margin

I concur

#209 Edited by MonsterStomp (15740 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp said:

Aquaman and Superman have no place in the DC side. Avengers stomp. Wally can't take them all you know :P

LMAO.

Somebody who clearly has absolutely no idea they're talking about.

Why is Wally such a huge factor here? I'd say he's less of a factor than dipped Supes. Stop wanking.

And don't forget about Fernus. Stop discrediting all the other members because you love Wally so much.

1. I was joking.

2. A bloodlusted Silver Surfer would drain Superman within an inch of his life.

3. I'm not discounting Fernus, I just don't see who he can take. Maybe Surfer and Hulk...

#210 Posted by hardcorefakes (691 posts) - - Show Bio

@hardcorefakes said:

@monsterstomp said:

Aquaman and Superman have no place in the DC side. Avengers stomp. Wally can't take them all you know :P

LMAO.

Somebody who clearly has absolutely no idea they're talking about.

Why is Wally such a huge factor here? I'd say he's less of a factor than dipped Supes. Stop wanking.

And don't forget about Fernus. Stop discrediting all the other members because you love Wally so much.

1. I was joking.

2. A bloodlusted Silver Surfer would drain Superman within an inch of his life.

3. I'm not discounting Fernus, I just don't see who he can take. Maybe Surfer and Hulk...

Jesus. That was good. I though you were actually serious. How'd you make it so believable?

#211 Posted by MonsterStomp (15740 posts) - - Show Bio

@hardcorefakes: Pretty easy. Flash fans are notoriously ignorant. So it makes other people gullible that they are serious.

#212 Edited by hardcorefakes (691 posts) - - Show Bio

@hardcorefakes: Pretty easy. Flash fans are notoriously ignorant. So it makes other people gullible that they are serious.

...That's pure genius. Seriously. lol

#213 Posted by termiteone4ever (6985 posts) - - Show Bio

The DC team has this . . Due to Parallax .

#214 Posted by kidamazo29 (35 posts) - - Show Bio

Justice League

#215 Posted by schillenger420 (816 posts) - - Show Bio

@schillenger420 said:

Surfer keeps Wally at bay by absorbing his kinetic energy just long enough for Scarlet Witch to one-shot everyone with some kind of, "No Powers For YOU!!!" curse and this fights over. That's how I write it anyway. Might anger some folks but the way her powers work literally anything is possible. It's all in the author.

..But Superman who has dipped for 3 days would rip Surfer to pieces. You can't control Wally if you're already dead.

Hey man, it's just the nature of her powers. Depending on whose doing the writing (in this case.... me) Wanda can beat anyone and everyone. When your powers are so undefined, anything is possible. Unlikely maybe... but than again she has probability powers so..... And yeah using her is sort of a B#@tch move.

#216 Posted by New_World_Order (12452 posts) - - Show Bio

Avengers.

#217 Posted by THESHIZ46 (52 posts) - - Show Bio

No one can beat Aquaman

#219 Posted by _Black (2302 posts) - - Show Bio

To the person that said Norrin solos, thank you. You made my night. Hahaha

#220 Posted by BOdinson (224 posts) - - Show Bio

@schmalzel said:

So how is Wally hurting Thor? Not just Thor, Rune King Thor with Destroyer Armor? I don't want to hear he is phasing his brain our or he is to fast for Thor, he isn't going to just go up to Thor and kill him, Thor (being arguably the most durable of the characters is the front line defense, Wally would have to avoid his attacks and "deal" with him and I think that is a pretty big distraction for Wally, even blood lusted. A blood lusted Silver Surfer, how is that going unchecked? Surfer can go into a hyper space where his speed is un checked... where outside of that he can go what is said to 99 % exceeding the speed of light. I think that Flash would have his problems with a blood lusted Surfer and Rune King Thor to even begin worrying about Strange and Wanda.

Is Thor susceptible to physical damage? If yes, how much? Can he handle 200 IMP's? If he cannot then Wally punches him in the face... you don't want to hear he is phasing his brain out because....? Can Wally do it? If he can then Wally does it... just because you find it hard to comprehend that =/= it cannot be achieved.

Yeah but can't we just argue it like this then...Didn't the Runes give Thor the ability to see the past, present and future and the means to guide the future? If Thor can see the future then that's already an automatic win for the Marvel team. Do you know how many possibilities he can foresee in this battle(A battle that he probably is aware of before the rest) with 3 days prep? It doesn't matter if he sees a billion ways in which the avengers can fail, he only needs to see 1 way in which they can/will win and that is what they'll prep for.

Wally can then be taken out by the mere fact that he would do nothing that Thor hasn't already seen, he would run the same path Thor saw him run in his "winning" vision, he can prep accordingly even if it means that ultimately the Hulk, Surfer, Strange and Void should sacrifice themselves in order for the plan to fall into action, they could probably stall Wally long enough for Thor/SW to do what needs to be done to wipe Wally out of this battle(He would know where Wally would be at all times, he already saw it happen! ). With only Scarlet and Thor remaining they could easily solo the team on DC and even resurrect the others after the battle is over.

And in accordance to your argument, If Thor can do it, then he does it...just because you find it hard to comprehend =/= it cannot be achieved.

As much as I would like to see such a battle play out(Being a Thor fan obviously hence the Username) Thor is overkill in this battle, SW and Thor both can individually solo this battle, hell Thor probably doesn't even need the destroyer armor other than maybe packing the defeated JLA members like sardines into the armor imprisoning them there. In order to make this a bit more fair Thor needs to be removed from this fight, it doesn't help to even bring the prep down to 5mins for avengers, as 5mins is already plenty enough time to see a favorable outcome.

Marvel for the easy stomp. Wally is a non-factor in this battle.

#221 Edited by CheeseSticks (2377 posts) - - Show Bio

Aquaman solo

#222 Posted by Schmalzel (334 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp said:

@hardcorefakes: Pretty easy. Flash fans are notoriously ignorant. So it makes other people gullible that they are serious.

...That's pure genius. Seriously. lol

LOL Love the smiley face.

#223 Posted by Scoop316 (157 posts) - - Show Bio

Marvel. Probably.

Make Superman Silver Age then we'll talk.

#224 Posted by theONEtaichou (1502 posts) - - Show Bio

@theonetaichou said:

@schmalzel said:

Other then Strange and Wanda who is Wally going to hurt? Even blood lusted, you haven't shown any proof that he can hurt any near or cosmic being... but yet you keep going on about his SPEED. Surfer can rearrange matter. Just about all of the Marvel don't need the ground and Wally can run and react in an attosecond all he wants but if there is no ground to stand on (literally speaking) what is he going to do? You seem to duck the fact that Flash can't hurt most of them even with all his ability. Wallys best chance in this fight is to run. As for Parrallax, there are plenty of Marvel characters who can ward off any fear or mind control he has and can take him, such as Strange, Wanda, RKT Surfer any combo/trio of them can handle Parrallax.

... I cannot believe I have to repeat this... you say everybody beats Wally... great! I believe you!... the logician in me wants to know who can do it fast enough before attosecond Wally walks up to them and punches them in the face, or speed steals them leaving them statues? Who? (not to mention Surfer has been beaten down by Thanos... no IMPs there but hey)

SPEED is important mate in a fight... in fact it is fundamental in a fight. No amount of power will guarantee a win if your galaxy busting attack is as slow as a snail. Worse if you are susceptible to a punch in the face. You cannot beat down what you cannot tag...end of story!!

You mean to tell me that Wally, who using the embodiment of kinetic motion aka SF, cannot speed steal anyone from Marvel for an Incapacitation Win (tko)? Really? Or IMP's? Instead you use titles as your argument? yeah....

As for ZH Parallax... if you think all he is a fear-inducing entity, you do not know who he is, just read up on @willpayton's arguments for ZHP. No one has done what he has done and there is no one strong enough to even push ZHP. As for Strange/Wanda/RKT/Surfer... they cannot handle a torch to him combined or singular. No one can handle Parallax here, from both DC and Marvel.

good day

You take what I say and everyone else says and spin it to what you want. I never said Wally loses to everyone. But you keep coming at people "who can touch Wally" you don't have to be as fast as Wally to touch him, second you haven't responded on other then Strange/Witch who has Wally physically really been able to take out on the level of anyone else outside of those 2? As far as Parallax, you are saying someone above Odin level can't even begin to effect him? That is just insane. Combined with the power with mystic arts of Strange that is quite a force. RKT has magic that is even on par with Strange, but to combine the two in a battle is just nuts, to even say that those 2 can't handle a torch to him. That is just your favortism towards DC.

...so I take what you say and spin it? Really? I am sorry you see it that way but you are wrong. I have been logical and coherent in my rebuttals, in fact I have have even stopped pushing certain points and flat out agreeing with you for the sake of moving the argument along and still you haven't brought anything forward. Please read up on my "great I agree with you' faux-concessions...

And I will keep coming to who can touch Wally until someone gives me something other that "RKT is durr beyond skyfather so he wins derrp derrp" answer. Also you are right, you don't have to be as fast as Wally to touch him, you need to be faster! In a comic Wally can move as slow as he wants but the OP has specified a bloodlusted Wally using his speed to its absolute max... that means in this very battle thread Wally will move at his best speed, attack with his best attacks and will not suffer from WIS/PIS/CIS (hence bloodlust) which occurs in comics for a story. The rules of bloodlust are shown in the beginning of the Battle Forum Rules.

As for Wally beating someone on their level, I don't think you will find that in a comic (I am sure there are some but I am not an expert on Wally) but that doesn't mean he cannot beat them anyway (especially if they susceptible to Wally's powerset). This is what you need to understand, a comic will suffer from various problems to create a story but that doesn't mean what happens in a story is logical. Characters win/lose to characters that they should logically lose to/win. Comic =/= Battle Forum Thread... but stretch out this logic tidbit of yours: RKT has no feats defeating a being like ZHP will you now agree he loses? Will you argue that way? Or the reverse... RKT has no feats of defeating WBH, that must mean hulk smash? Dis/Agree?

As for ZHP... I did ask you to read what @willpayton has given.... ZHP's feats are far beyond all of Marvel combined. So yes, he is beyond skyfather level even if it is RKT. The feats of ZHP and the subsequent logic ensure that he can solo the Marvel team. Unfortunately this might not sit well with some who support Marvel but logic is logic. Insanity or otherwise...

The last part... bias mate.

good day

#225 Edited by theONEtaichou (1502 posts) - - Show Bio

@bodinson said:

@theonetaichou said:

@schmalzel said:

So how is Wally hurting Thor? Not just Thor, Rune King Thor with Destroyer Armor? I don't want to hear he is phasing his brain our or he is to fast for Thor, he isn't going to just go up to Thor and kill him, Thor (being arguably the most durable of the characters is the front line defense, Wally would have to avoid his attacks and "deal" with him and I think that is a pretty big distraction for Wally, even blood lusted. A blood lusted Silver Surfer, how is that going unchecked? Surfer can go into a hyper space where his speed is un checked... where outside of that he can go what is said to 99 % exceeding the speed of light. I think that Flash would have his problems with a blood lusted Surfer and Rune King Thor to even begin worrying about Strange and Wanda.

Is Thor susceptible to physical damage? If yes, how much? Can he handle 200 IMP's? If he cannot then Wally punches him in the face... you don't want to hear he is phasing his brain out because....? Can Wally do it? If he can then Wally does it... just because you find it hard to comprehend that =/= it cannot be achieved.

Yeah but can't we just argue it like this then...Didn't the Runes give Thor the ability to see the past, present and future and the means to guide the future? If Thor can see the future then that's already an automatic win for the Marvel team. Do you know how many possibilities he can foresee in this battle(A battle that he probably is aware of before the rest) with 3 days prep? It doesn't matter if he sees a billion ways in which the avengers can fail, he only needs to see 1 way in which they can/will win and that is what they'll prep for.

... there is so much wrong with this mate... Thor can ONLY guide the future which means Thor CANNOT make the future. As long as he cannot make the future then your scenario is imperfect to say the least. In fact it just becomes prediction at best. Thor can find the 1 scenario in a billion to win doesn't mean the 1 will still occur... that scenario might depend on say Fernus not mindraping anyone, in the actual battle Fernus does mindrape. Because they are all possible scenarios, prep for a singular scenario is plain stupid when all billion+1 can occur. If Thor COULD make the future it would be a different animal to slay, then your subsequent rebuttal would be possible.

BTW if Thor can see the future, an explicit future, then logically he cannot guide the future i.e defer the future from the present course nor shape or influence it in any way.

good day

@theonetaichou said:

So you have Fernus, sundipped Superman, Starheart Alan Scott and a bloodlusted Wally?! Then you cap it all with Parallax (I assume ZH Parallax)...

Prep is meaningless... how would the Avengers prep against Wally. As soon as the battle starts a bloodlusted Wally hits femtosecond/attosecond speeds and speed steals everyone, IMP's them to death? Or Fernus mindrapes them or Alan Scott... flip it! Did I mention a bloodlusted Wally? And just to make it fun ZH Parallax...

good day

How in the h*ll will Wally hurt Thor IN DESTROYER ARMOUR(Remember, this is the same armor that took on celestials)? Plus it's RK Thor. Also Silver Surfer can stick with Wally in the speed department, so he isn't speedblitzing anyone. Telepathy has shown to have no affect on Hulk, and I doubt it would work on a RK Thor, who is even more powerful than ODIN! ODIN! Did I also mention a RK THOR!?!?!?

...you are right mate... I mean it's not like Wally cannot speed steal amirite? It's the freakin' DA, used to fight Celestials, SF be damned.

But you are right... it's RKT! He wins just because he is stronger than Odin mate. ODIN!!! RKT, again RKT!!!....aaaaaaaargh

sorry to have some fun at your expense, do forgive.

good day

#226 Posted by WillPayton (9134 posts) - - Show Bio
#227 Edited by Iragexcudder (4264 posts) - - Show Bio

Rune King Thor solos

Scarlet Solos

#228 Edited by BOdinson (224 posts) - - Show Bio

@theonetaichou

... there is so much wrong with this mate... Thor can ONLY guide the future which means Thor CANNOT make the future. As long as he cannot make the future then your scenario is imperfect to say the least. In fact it just becomes prediction at best. Thor can find the 1 scenario in a billion to win doesn't mean the 1 will still occur... that scenario might depend on say Fernus not mindraping anyone, in the actual battle Fernus does mindrape. Because they are all possible scenarios, prep for a singular scenario is plain stupid when all billion+1 can occur. If Thor COULD make the future it would be a different animal to slay, then your subsequent rebuttal would be possible.

BTW if Thor can see the future, an explicit future, then logically he cannot guide the future i.e defer the future from the present course nor shape or influence it in any way.

good day

How can all billion+ occur? I don't think you really understand what I'm talking about here... What I am saying is this; now you see the future and the opponent you'll face, you see you have the following options.

  1. Shoot him in the head
  2. Strangle him to death
  3. Poison his cola
  4. Cut his car brakes and have him go down a cliff
  5. Don't kill him at all

Now if you choose 5, how will the rest, or how can the rest also occur? That just doesn't make any sense at all. Perhaps not the greatest example but I'm sure you'll get the point. If he sees a billion and 1 different versions of the fight unfolding and he goes out and preps for the ONE time in which he saw they could win, how could the others possibly occur as well? The others are then "What if's". They are events that COULD have happened but DIDN'T happen. There is a huge difference...

How could Thor not make the future? Did he not receive the same insight that his father before him received? Even if we argue that Thor(Rune Lord) at best is only equal to Odin when it comes to the knowledge received through the wisdom, Thor should be capable enough to see things in the future as they happen and even implement plans to prevent certain things from happening.

Odin did it numerous times:

  1. The Dark gods event, after their long and hard fought victory over the dark gods Odin already knew they'd return and he already implemented a plan for such an event. He even wiped the memories of everyone on Asgard in regards to the original event and he even wiped his own memory!!! He gave Hescamer one of his ravens enough power to overcome Hela in her own realm after it turned in Marnot when the time came. Now the main question should be, why? Did Odin see that Thor was going to die and planned it so that Marnot can retrieve Thor from Hel? Did Odin plan for Thor to die at the hands of the Destroyer precisely because an innocent(Jake Olsen) HAD to die in order for Thor to take up the burden of living the life of Jake Olsen precisely because the dark gods won't be able to see Thor in that disguise? Why not take it even further...Was the destroyer armor found by accident or did Odin intend for it to be found at just the right time in just the right place, bringing that destroyer to the shores unleashed a series of events that unfolded exactly the way it should have unfolded to ensure a victory for Thor against the dark gods. With hindsight to the event it is even plain to see why Odin wiped his own memory to prevent Majeston Zelia from obtaining the relevant details to Thor's where about. That entire event was nothing more than one huge plot devised by Odin to ensure the victory in the next battle.
  2. The run where Thor took on Thanos and Mangog, the oracle already showed the final outcome of the event. Odin still managed to change that outcome. It doesn't matter at what moment he did it or didn't do it.
  3. Odin already saw the future of King Thor, as such he already saw his death at the hands of Surtur. He did nothing to stop at all, perhaps because he already foresaw his inevitable resurrection at a later time. Or perhaps it was because it would have been a valuable lesson for Thor to learn along his journey. Odin has always put out trials for Thor, training him to the leader Asgard needs.
  4. Rune Thor run, Odin again showed foresight into having Thor born outside the influence of Those Who Sit Above In Shadow.

Odin has seen and changed the future on many occasions, why would Thor NOT be capable of the same given the fact that he received the same knowledge of the Runes as His Father before him did?

I would think that Thor actually foresaw his return to earth as well, hence why he at just enough Odin Force left to rebuild Asgard and get his people. Why recreate Mjolnir when at the point when he did it he was already ABOVE anything Mjolnir can do for him? Did the Donald find the Hammer or was the Hammer sent to Donald?

Even then, with all of the above said, I still think Thor is capable of seeing, guiding AND changing the future. Such an opponent is then not to be taken lightly.

#231 Edited by amalgamuniverse (334 posts) - - Show Bio

I feel like Aquaman and Hulk are non-factors here, so the non-factors can fight each other. For the rest of the characters, I see these battles:

Fernus vs Scarlet Witch

Alan Scott vs Dr. Strange

Wally West vs Silver Surfer

Superman vs Void

Parallax vs RKT

I'm sorry that I don't really have an explanation for these battles, but the way I see it, Aquaman dehydrates him and kills him. Wally West would probably Steal all of Surfer's Speed while Surfer destroys him by vaporizing him, unless Flash steals all of their speed, in which case, Marvel loses. But in the case of my original idea, Flash would die, but SS would be left frozen. I think Fernus could destroy Wanda's mind while she simultaneously destroys him, which would leave both of them out. Superman I think would get destroyed by Void, unless he did something similar to how Thor killed him, such as an intense blast of something like lightning, or in this case, heat vision. I think that Alan Scott w/ Starheart would win against Strange, but that's just me. For Parallax and RKT, I think it would end in a victory for Parallax. So that leaves:

WWH (dead)

Aquaman

Dr. Strange (dead)

Alan Scott

Flash (dead)

SS (incapacitated)

Supes (dead)

Void

Fernus (dead)

Scarlet Witch (incapacitated)

Parallax

RKT (defeated)

So that leaves Aquaman, Parallax, and Alan Scott vs Void. In this case, DC wins.

But yeah, this isn't the most powerful team of Justice League

@bigcimmerian Since when was Alan Scott part of the JLA, and Silver Surfer part of the Avengers? I might be wrong, but I don't recall them being part of those respective teams.

#232 Posted by XiiX (7413 posts) - - Show Bio

It's gotten to the point that I can already tell who's going to back which side just by looking at their username. Haha.

#233 Posted by Galactus616 (79 posts) - - Show Bio

Damnnn man lol I gotta say Marvel in this one. Mainly because of Rune King Thor, World War Hulk, Silver Surfer (especially), and Scarlett Witch.

#234 Posted by theONEtaichou (1502 posts) - - Show Bio

@bodinson said: ....naaa mate, you still do not understand. In fact you do not get even your own example. I am not trying to be harsh but let me demonstrate.

You said RKT with the power of the Runes can guide the future... he doesn't create the future. So if RKT looks at billion+1 scenario or actually what they are = possible futures, he can choose to influence the future to create the possibility of the 1 future to occur but that future is still fluid and he cannot ensure the billion will not occur. That is what I am speaking to. If RKT could create a future, not merely guide, that would be sacrosanct rather than possible.

so let's us take a look in your example

How can all billion+ occur? I don't think you really understand what I'm talking about here... What I am saying is this; now you see the future and the opponent you'll face, you see you have the following options.

  1. Shoot him in the head
  2. Strangle him to death
  3. Poison his cola
  4. Cut his car brakes and have him go down a cliff
  5. Don't kill him at all

Now if you choose 5, how will the rest, or how can the rest also occur? That just doesn't make any sense at all. Perhaps not the greatest example but I'm sure you'll get the point. If he sees a billion and 1 different versions of the fight unfolding and he goes out and preps for the ONE time in which he saw they could win, how could the others possibly occur as well? The others are then "What if's". They are events that COULD have happened but DIDN'T happen. There is a huge difference...

...firstly you see a future, and say in that future the opponent will kill you: you decide to do 1/2. He dies and you live... do you see the future you saw hasn't occurred? You are alive and he is dead ergo you only saw a possible future. Say you choose 3 or 4; he lives and kills you anyway exactly as you saw. So what has your actions done to the future? They have not changed it at all, you still die exactly as you saw. Say you choose 5 and he kills you anyway, future stayed the same. But say you don't and when he comes you accept your fate that you die and this surprises him and he spares you... another possible future has occurred. What I am saying just because you choose a possible future, as long as you cannot create THAT EXACT future you chose, does not mean your chosen future will occur. Same with RKT, if he could CREATE the future then it would be a different story, but as long as he can only influence and guide he cannot guarantee his chosen future anymore than any other possible future.

To take it to this battle thread... he has a billion+1 possible futures, with a billion saying he dies and 1 saying he wins. How could he guarantee that 1 future vs the billion? But it gets better, and this is where I stand you might get lost, if RKT can only guide the future that means he does not create the future which means everytime he looks into the future he is in fact changing the future. The very act of him seeing the 1 future where he wins and therefore preps for it means even that future is changed. Say the 1 future was achieved because RKT didn't look into the future, now he has and has seen this possible future, how then does he make it so? By looking he sees the win but the win comes by him not looking! Even if he guides the future each action changes that future; say he preps to put a rock at point X to trip Flash, Flash runs there and trips, but now the trip causes Superman to hear Flash trip and this causes Superman to stall an attack that he should have done to create RKT's 1 win scenario. Flash does trip, but Superman doesn't attack. So how does RKT make Superman attack at that exact moment in time, in the unchanged scenario Flash would not have tripped and Superman would not have paused his attack? And every change then changes the future, and so on and so on... hence guidance of the future is no guarantee of that future occurring.

But let's go the other side... say RKT sees any of the billion scenarios where he looses; can he change their outcome? He sees he will lose, what can he do? No matter what he does he still loses... he can still guide the future. Then what of guiding the future if the future occurs anyway regardless of guidance? Then what of this guidance power of Thor? He is stuck, pre-determinism runs deep in this one.

In conclusion as long as RKT cannot create the future, his guidance is no guarantee of a win, especially since a he has a 1 to a billion chance of winning, and he cannot even guarantee the odds won't increase against him by his guidance.

I now leave you with this....

How could Thor not make the future? Did he not receive the same insight that his father before him received? Even if we argue that Thor(Rune Lord) at best is only equal to Odin when it comes to the knowledge received through the wisdom, Thor should be capable enough to see things in the future as they happen and even implement plans to prevent certain things from happening.

... exactly friend, how can RKT make a future. He cannot, he can only guide. Big difference...

See this is why I say, mate, you didn't get my original rebuttal. If Thor sees certain things in the future (he loses a game of chess for example) and takes steps to prevent them then Thor should see the future where his steps have taken (where he has won the game of chess). But he now doesn't see the first future which drives him to prep and therefore he doesn't and then he loses. But then he does see the loosing future and takes steps to prevent it, he then sees the winning future and he doesn't take any steps and therefore he looses... and on and on.

But lets's make it linear, if the future is fluid i.e Thor can change it then even Thor's intended future is fluid i.e. can change. This means he cannot make his wanted future to occur, even with his steps he cannot guarantee it. If the future is fixed, then RKT cannot change anything, he suffers from pre-determination and his 'guidance' is useless.

As for your examples, they work in a comic where I suppose this level of thought is not considered. Unfortunately I am arguing for DC, and in this debate I don't see why quarter should be given for comic events.

good day

#235 Posted by Moonman78 (1726 posts) - - Show Bio

DC wins ZH lax is the strongest here this can be a good battle but there's not enough weight on the marvel team to deal with the guy.

#236 Posted by Killemall (18246 posts) - - Show Bio

@moonman78: They have scarlet Witch whose power was tearing apart the omniverse vs ZH parallax destroying universes 1 at a time.

#237 Posted by Moonman78 (1726 posts) - - Show Bio

@moonman78: They have scarlet Witch whose power was tearing apart the omniverse vs ZH parallax destroying universes 1 at a time.

Scarlet Witch was only affecting earth on M day its been said more than a few times. No cosmics or anybody above was really affected, the highest person being maybe Dr Strange.

#238 Posted by thanosii (1203 posts) - - Show Bio

This thread still lives

#239 Posted by kidman560 (7527 posts) - - Show Bio

- Both teams will have 3 days prep, info and everything they need to know about other team

- Battle will take place in evacuated New York

- Morals are off, who wins and why?

JUSTICE LEAGUE

1) Fernus

2) Superman sundipped for 3 days

3) Alan Scott with starheart

4) Aquaman with water hand and trident of Neptune

5) Bloodlusted Wally West

6) Hal Jordan as Parallax

AVENGERS

1) World Breaker Hulk

2) Rune King Thor with Destroyer Armor

3) Void

4) House of M Scarlet Witch

5) Sorcerer Supreme Doctor Strange

6) Bloodlusted post Annihilation Silver Surfer

those last three could do it themselves Silver Surfer can Heal himself and his team check it out

i mean he healed the watcher. so i mean

#240 Posted by Killemall (18246 posts) - - Show Bio

Scarlet Witch was only affecting earth on M day its been said more than a few times. No cosmics or anybody above was really affected, the highest person being maybe Dr Strange.

Her warp was global, she only wanted to remake the earth, but what essentially happened was the energy went on to rip outside the boundary of 616 reality and went on to affect entire universes beyond ours.

We see Chaos Wave hit Otherworld, a nexus of all reality that lies outside 616 in Uncanny X-men # 465 but lets go thru one at a time and hopefully i can get you to agree with me.

===================================

Prelude

Then we have Meggan who wakes up realizing something is wrong.

"It is the end my love. Of all that that is! Of all that will ever be"

===================================

Now we finally see Chaos Wave hit Otherworld which isnt even in 616 reality but rather outside it and serves as a nexus to all realities.

===================================

We then actually see various realities erased on panel.

"Time and Space, our every perception of reality ... is defined.. governed... by what we call natural laws. They provide the foundation and structure of our very existence. Now imagine them totally stripped away. No more boundaries ... what quantum physics love to call branes ... better the dimensions. More coherence to casuality. Only a primal chaos, beyond the comprehension of any sentience"

There we can see the wave actually affecting various reality.

Third panel we see a reality where Thor is a fish and Namor a member of the Fantastic Four.

Fourth panel we see a reality where Spiderman is a woman.

Last panel we see Iron Man as a dinosaurs and Thing as a member of the X-men.

Thats at the very least 3 different universes outside out 616

===================================

We further see more ramification as Roma's tower falls

"With an inconceivable variety and number of species, as all the dimensions suddenly together crash into one"

We also see Mad James Jasper brought back to life, thats at least 1 person beyond Dr. Strange in terms of cosmic powers.

===================================

Much later in the issue Roma actually explains about the Chaos Wave

This page directly addresses the question you asked.

"We are witnessing a trans-temporal tsunami , originating from Earth 616, apparently there has been an alternation of global proportion that has breached the walls of causality"

So Scarlet Witch "global alteration" actually went beyond 616 reality.

"Until the breach itself is sealed, this chaos wave will keep expanding along the sidereal strings.. to the farthest reaches of imagination, from the sundered planes to the sublimity - perhaps even to the ascension itself. "

"Left unchecked all creation would merge into a single formless amorphous conceptual blob"

So if the breached was not stopped entire omniverse was going to be merged into a single formless blob.

===================================

Recap page of Uncanny X-men # 463 pretty clearly collaborates all i have said:

Things to note:

"shattering the walls between dimensions as it spreads to the farthese reaches of CrossTime."

So Chaos Wave went beyond 616 reality.

"Unless the Chaos-Wave is stopped, all reality will devolve into nothingness"

If not stopped the omniverse is going to be destroyed

"Brian has forty-eight hours to complete his mission. Otherwise, Roma will have no choice but to use the Celestial Nullifier to erase not just Earth 616 but its entire universe from existence"

So it cant be a global power, if Roma is willing to destroy entire universe to prevent the problem now can it?

===================================

Die by the Sword # 1 a issue that deals with resurrected Mad James Jasper further explains what happened with the Chaos Wave

"Not so long ago the omniverse was swept away by a temporal wave of unimaginable powers , that lietrally tore the continuum to bits and re-arranged it"

===================================

So while the intention was only to affect Earth, its hard to deny the side effect went way beyond the planet, in fact beyond universe to actually affect the entire omniverse.

That was also not even the full extent of her power because she never wanted to cause the damage in the first place, she was just trying to built Quicksilver version of a perfect world.

The showing of power in House of M, is better than what Parallax did during Zero Hour.

#241 Posted by Equonox (964 posts) - - Show Bio

This fight comes down to Alan Scott, Parallax Hal, and Aquaman vs RKT, Wanda, and Strange.

I'm leaning towards DC team, mostly because of Hal. Wanda isn't as big of a threat, as I simply disagree that her display in House of M is anywhere near Hal's level. Hal destroyed and remade a universe effortlessly; Wanda altered a universe but never had the power to destroy it or create a new one. Creation/destruction trumps modification.

RKT, IMO, is overrated - he has zero feats. I take a universe buster over him any day.

Strange is the question mark here...he is ridiculously powerful in his classic form and might be able to solo, but I think Aquaman w/ the Water Hand and Alan Scott together might be able to at least match / contain some of his power.

DC 5.1/10

#242 Edited by RudeBomberBoy01 (1656 posts) - - Show Bio

This thread Is funny! So hostile!

#243 Posted by Killemall (18246 posts) - - Show Bio

I am really surprised people see Classic Strange as a bigger threat than HOM Wanda, which just isnt true.

And Wanda didnt just modify 616, her feat is way bigger than that, despite having posted so scans right here, people still disagree, strange...

#244 Edited by Equonox (964 posts) - - Show Bio

I am really surprised people see Classic Strange as a bigger threat than HOM Wanda, which just isnt true.

And Wanda didnt just modify 616, her feat is way bigger than that, despite having posted so scans right here, people still disagree, strange...

No one that I see disagrees that what she did was incredibly powerful, and I certainly don't disagree that it affected the Marvel multiverse. My point was destroying/creating a universe is a more impressive feat than altering one (or many). Classic Strange, while not having a grand single feat quite on par w/ House of M, was able to go toe-to-toe w/ Shuma Gorath and Dormamu on the reg (who both had the power to remake or destroy reality) and hold his own. I still think DC takes this, simply because ZHP is the most powerful character here feat-wise, but Strange and Wanda make it interesting

#245 Posted by Killemall (18246 posts) - - Show Bio

@equonox said:


No one that I see disagrees that what she did was incredibly powerful, and I certainly don't disagree that it affected the Marvel multiverse.

The feat was actually omniversal, and i honestly think you are under-selling Wanda here.

She wanted to change Earth, in 1 reality, but her power was so potent it went beyond 616, affected multiple universe, evolved them into nothing but blob of chaos (thats pretty much close to destruction), and was going to continue so on had Meggan not stopped it by closing the breach.

The fact that Meggan had to tap into the power of otherworld (nexus of energy of marvel multiverse, just to give an indication of how potent it is, Surtur was actually going to burn the whole multiverse with energy of otherworld alone, a guy whose power at best is universal, and in all likelihood even below) + energies from Beyond (Beyonder verse). With all the godly amped she actually died there just trying to stop it.

I still dont understand why thats a case.

And realities, not one but many were destroyed , how else will you interpret a white light sweeping many reality, and the comment being the reality was reduced to formless blob of chaos?

BTW Zero Hour Parallax didnt destroy universe because of his own power, but he let lose the energy of the entrophy which destroyed the universe for him, it was never his power


Shuma or Dormammu could remake or destroy reality? The best feat from Dormammu has is what, fighting Eternity and getting stomped, i have seen absolutely nothing to suggest Dormammu could destroy a universe and i have read every appearence of Dormammu.

Shuma Gorath vs Dr . Strange in his own realm, was going to destroy all of netherworld (various pocket universes, some of which are so small Dr. Strange himself has destroyed one). Shuma has neither destroyed a universe nor shown the ability to destroy one. At least Shuma does have some hyperbole surrouding it and Dr. Strange hasnt ever, defeated Shuma without plot like : destroying Ancient One's Ego to break Shuma connection to 616, absoring energies from being in 999 different dimensions before confronting Shuma in his realm (it doesnt get any more amped than that), or defeating Shuma by taking him into Stone Henge.

Plot allowed, Invaders defeated Shuma with a plot just as well (spear of destiny)

Thats not including how MJJ has both better hyperbole and feats than both of them, one person who was affected by Wanda.

Also since you mentioned Dormammu, here is a scan you might find helpful

First Dr. Strange and Prof X travelling thru to stop Wanda suddenly finds Dormammu before them

Strange comments how only Scarlet Witch power could have brought him here, remember Dormammu promised Strange to never come to Earth.

Turns out Wanda was asleep all the while, yet she was able to forcefully grab Dormammu into Earth

I fundamentally disagree on Zero Hour Parallax vs Wanda here, because one wanted to recreated Cost City, went on to manipulate Entrophy to erase universe, but was somehow going to re-start his own perfect universe vs a lady who was trying to change earth, and her power was so potent that it went outside 616 (all the while Wanda is just on Earth), started devolving entire universes into nothing but chaos, re-arranging entire omniverse and had she not been stopped entire omniverse as going to fall into Chaos, and thats not even willingly trying to affect them.

So remaking 1 universe vs affecting whole omniverse which has many multiverses, and each multiverse has infinite universes, i dont see how Parallax feat are more grand, but we can agree to diagree.

Classic Strange is as close to being a non factor, but people are always going to look at his best feat, not including context. Strange was never meant to be anywhere close to this level.

#246 Posted by TifaLockhart (14012 posts) - - Show Bio

House of M Scarlet Witch solos. Yes, even the Phantom Stranger.

#247 Posted by Epicbeast3000 (956 posts) - - Show Bio

RKT could solo them all apart from parralax, and with strange prep they stomp Dc team.