The strongest JLA vs the strongest Avengers

ZH Parallax solos, since he was a multiversal-level threat. He was only defeated after he spent most of his energies destroying the universe, creating a new one, and then fighting the Spectre. He didnt completely defeat the Spectre, but did seem to KO him for a few pages. (Basically cause he'd spent his energy by then and the plot required the other heroes to actually get the "win")

Is Thor susceptible to physical damage? If yes, how much? Can he handle 200 IMP's? If he cannot then Wally punches him in the face... you don't want to hear he is phasing his brain out because....? Can Wally do it? If he can then Wally does it... just because you find it hard to comprehend that =/= it cannot be achieved. Worse Wally can just speed steal him and win by Incapacitation!

Also Wally is too fast for Thor... to prove this wrong point us to Thor's speed feats and compare them to Wally's. You say Thor will do all this to Wally... I BELIEVE YOU... all I ask is will Wally stand still or can Wally do something, say move at attoseconds and punch him in the face? Same goes with Surfer who has been punched drunk by far less than an IMP. And 99% exceeding the speed of light (which by the way is travel speed not reaction speed) is super slow to someone (Wally) moving at attoseconds...

But here is the kicker... since Wally is leagues faster than everyone here... why can't he just walk to Marvel and speed steal everyone and win by Incapacitation?!

good day

Why is Aquaman in here?

RKT's far above skyfather level so no, 200 IMPs won't hurt, not that Wally can do that much or has proven that he can. Phasing doesn't work on Asgardian physiology IIRC, and many on the Marvel side can still do things w/o speed. They just think or release blasts from their body if they fell like it. Also you need to prove that Speedforce can steal energy from the Odin Force, which is usually vastly superior.

@willpayton: @theonetaichou: Wally is a none factor he because

1- even when Wally speed stole from AM he wasn't even noticed so clearly speed stealing from abstract levels is null.

Thor was immune to phasing even before this upgrade

If ZHP is a multiversal threat he wouldn't burn out his powers destroy one universe. And even that feat should b taken with a grain of salt because he didnt destroy it under his own power but channelled the crunch.

The only multiversal being here is Wanda and sh till solos both sides

The "crunch"? What are you talking about?

ZH Parallax destroyed a universe and created a new one, and then still had enough power to trade blows with Spectre. Anyone who can go outside the timestream of the universe, survive its destruction, and create a new one is, by definition, multiversal.

Please mate show me where RKT is above physical damage? Or that he has taken an IMP-type physical attack and nothing? Or something more powerful than 200 imps in a second (let alone what Wally said he could do to a WM in a second)?

As for phasing... again please point us to your evidence? I only ask because I don't believe it... but you are welcome to try (notwithstanding what shadowcat has done or vision iirc).

... mate you do know the Speed Force is greater than the Odin force, in fact bring up the Cosmic Force instead not the OF. A little research might help.

good day

exactly!

good day

@theonetaichou

Odin has survived Galaxy busting attacks as SIDE EFFECTS of his battle and has not felt them. He's affected the multiverse by fighting, and IIRC once slapped away a blast that was supposed to destroy the multiverse, and RKT is said to be much more powerful. By default, Galaxy busting>200 IMPs, and certainly the other things.

As for phasing, why would shadow cat and vision's failed attacks NOT count? Then what else would there be to show as proof besides other phasers?

I don't wanna be disrespectful but I'm leaning towards a mismatch (in avengers favor). WBH is not stopping/going down/letting up/etc. getting progressively stronger/faster/angrier/healing faster. Just think about it like this, he's inevitably going to match the JL fighter with the highest power level (that's just how Hulk's anger works, not to mention WBH). Do if you have a sun dipped supes, is gonna produce you a Hulk on "sun dipped supes" level (bad news [not to mention SS would be more than happy to absorb all that solar radiation]). And he'll ultimately be fighting multiple fighters among the aforementioned named because anything less than full attention to a WORLD BREAKER HULK is asking for an apocalypse. Parallax is gonna be a tough one and the best chance at the JL taking the W. But a bloodusted SS at full strength and the molecule master Void is who would take care of that threat IMO. That leaves Thor Scarlet Witch AND the Sorceror Supreme to deal with the faster man alive, king of the seas, jonn's alter ego and the first green lantern. Not saying its gonna be a blowout but it's gonna be a blowout. You didn't even account for the mystic aspect you gave the avengers but failed to give the League (big mistake). Strange can end this whole conflict with a snap of his fingers. Give him, the God of Thunder and a full strength SW three days prep time? Only makes things worse. Call me biased if you will but I wanna know how any team with WBH, Void (THE FUCKING VOID), Thor, SS and two masters of mystic arts are gonna lose.

Avengers take this one.

Nah you must be biased, Wally can solo this one, just ask @theonetaichou look, I'm again not saying this is a stomp, but show me how Wally has even touched anyone near Odins level let alone above Odins level. Yes Parallax is going to be tough, but Void SS (blood lusted) WBH and RKT on top of Strange and Wanda? Flash is above his head with the beings like Thor and so on, yeah if he could "blitz" Strange or Wanda he could take them down, but he has more then just them to worry abut theone... the more research I get on all the them the more I realize how powerful RKT is and with the Destroyer armor and as blood lusted as Wally is, he can't even beat a blood lusted Super Man. How is he going to take out someone far above a blood lusted Super Man, let alone a 3 day sun dipped Supes, RKT can go toe to toe with Galactus. Who in the league can do that?

I have to give it to team Marvel

god can we ban flash from these fourms its getting absurd

cant we all just agree apparently the flash is the strongest, bestest most powerfull, beyonder stomping, doomsday one punching,handsomest, well dressed, able to slap the t.o.a.a if he dosnt like what is written superhero and the real reason literacy was invented in the first place already?

Well, be careful. Flash is going to run very very fast, cross all the different dimensions between the DC multiverse and this one, then phase your brain out of your skull, and finally hit you with 1, 000, 000 IMPs in less than a picosecond.

You should show some respect. Don't forget that his costume is red, yes.

Yes, you can read, is costume is red.

OMG... THE AVENGERS ARE DOOOOOOOOOMED! DOOOOOOOOOOMED! RED!

Why is this still being discussed? Why is anyone talking about Hulk or Flash as if they matter? ZH Parallax solos everyone, including the Marvel team AND his own team.

@willpayton: if we are back to a serious discussion, I'm very interested by your comment.

I wrote it at the beginning of this battle, the outcome of a fight between Classic Dr Strange with prep and ZH Parallax is a big question mark for me.

Do you have any element to answer to this particular fight?

With a minimum of prep, Dr Strange was able to resist to the IG, with almost no prep he was not affected by the strongest spell I ever read (The one at the origin of HoM).

He was able able t fight outside the multiverse when LT himself had troubles.

How would you see him being beaten that easily by ZH parallax that he will not be able to let the other members of his team taking care of the pb?

Hal Jordan as Parallax destroyed the universe. See all this white stuff in this picture... that's where the universe used to be...

Yes, Dr Strange w/ prep is the only one here that can give Hal a challenge. The problem is that I dont see him being as powerful as Spectre, and even Spectre couldnt put down Hal. Hal only eventually lost because by the time he temporarily KO'ed Spectre, he'd used up all his power. But, in this fight, he's coming in at peak power.

Remember that Hal destroyed the universe, and no one was able to do anything about it... not Dr Fate or the other high-level magic users, not Spectre, not any of the reality warpers... Hal was just too powerful, given he had just absorbed the entire Oan Main Power Battery and energy left over form the COIE.

And while Strange has prep, so does Hal. At his power level, he can really do just about anything he wants... with or without prep.

White Phoenix Of The Crown destroys all of them

Here's another scan of the fight at the end of ZH:

Notice what Kyle says... by the time he gets in there Hal has spent so much energy, first in destroying the universe, then in creating a new one, and finally in blasting the Spectre so badly that he didnt appear again for like 3 pages, that by then Hal is drained. But, it took all that to make Hal vulnerable.

Who here can do what Spectre couldnt, even when Hal had already spent much of his power? Dr Strange has prep, but prep is irrelevant to Hal. Strange needs prep to research and cast spells and stuff like that. Spectre certainly doesnt need prep, he is the embodiment of a multiversal magical power, and he got his ass KO'ed by Hal.

@willpayton: That's possible. I reserve my judgment for the moment, because this is a logical argument and before being at 100% convinced I would like to see if it is solid enough to resist to a few "attacks" by other members.

But, personally, yes, your hypothesis is definitely one of the first I had in mind.

Another one would be Dr Strange protecting Wanda while she using a spell prepared during the prep, and I'm quite sure that there is no limit to her power when she is not under pressure. So she could, in theory, be able to recreate a universe without ZH parallax, and Dr Strange fields would protect her the time for her to throw it when the battle begin.

Wanda preparing a spell during 6 month and the protection of Dr Strange, that combo seems quite powerful. Enough to take it in this fight, even against a multiverse threat like Parallax. Possible

ZH Parallax with prep solos. Possible too.

Seriously, I don't know.

Hmmm... Rune King Thor and Void are MVP's here...

Every single Marvel character here is more than a match for the JLA, ESPECIALLY with prep time. Strange and SW could break Wally's legs, or just create an reality where he cannot run. The team of Marvel is pretty much omnipotent, matching Parralax and everyone else. This is simply not a fight. Wally, while tough, isn't omnipotent, and Parralax is outnumbered and outmatched.

Please provide one feat from anyone on the Marvel team that matches what Parallax did in Zero Hour.

... mate at the very least, the very least, you could stop being disingenuous. I have not said Wally solos, and my personal answer would be for ZH Parallax to solo, all I have been arguing was the ridiculousness that is a bloodlsted attosecond Wally. In fact I have even said Wally loses to whoever matter/reality manipulates him, all I have asked for was WHO is fast enough to do so? What have I gotten in response? People unable to answer such, instead the lowest form of wit is passed off as some incredible logical defense, present company included. Or changing goal posts (from prep dissertation) and giving me tittles ('RKT is beyond skyfather level' so he wins etc). Fallacious. No coherent argument (heck, someone just say RKT uses the anti-SF so Wally can't do diddly squat to him - at least an argument, not just tittles).

I do understand your great admiration and cognizance you have of RKT... but saying he is powerful and he wins is not an argument.

As for the underlined and bolded... please!

good day

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@willpayton: Well... Hyperion survived the destruction of a universe... Just sayin...

How did he do that? Scans?

I don't have the scans... Only the one with him holding 2 planets from colliding, but maybe @homicidalmaniac can show you that scan.

Well, doesnt really matter... Hyperion isnt in this battle.

@willpayton: He should be, he's a top tier of the Avengers anyway...

@ghostravage:

@willpayton: @homicidalmaniac: Silly me... That's the scan i have lol...

so true why even try to debate i saw the dc team i said "ok lets see wat we have". HOM scarlet witch, void, RKT pffft i laughed team avengers stomps its funny he said strongest as in most powerful forms wat happened to prime one million, or Thought robot superman? but then again that would make it a stomp for team JL either way this battle is too onesided

And Scarlet Witch, not even using full power nearly tore thru the omniverse like a leggo, erasing countless universeS outright, just because she use so much power to warp the 616 reality, the power went outside as a tsunami.

She's the biggest powerhouse in Marvel team , by far.

Other then Strange and Wanda who is Wally going to hurt? Even blood lusted, you haven't shown any proof that he can hurt any near or cosmic being... but yet you keep going on about his SPEED. Surfer can rearrange matter. Just about all of the Marvel don't need the ground and Wally can run and react in an attosecond all he wants but if there is no ground to stand on (literally speaking) what is he going to do? You seem to duck the fact that Flash can't hurt most of them even with all his ability. Wallys best chance in this fight is to run. As for Parrallax, there are plenty of Marvel characters who can ward off any fear or mind control he has and can take him, such as Strange, Wanda, RKT Surfer any combo/trio of them can handle Parrallax.

... I cannot believe I have to repeat this... you say everybody beats Wally... great! I believe you!... the logician in me wants to know who can do it fast enough before attosecond Wally walks up to them and punches them in the face, or speed steals them leaving them statues? Who? (not to mention Surfer has been beaten down by Thanos... no IMPs there but hey)

SPEED is important mate in a fight... in fact it is fundamental in a fight. No amount of power will guarantee a win if your galaxy busting attack is as slow as a snail. Worse if you are susceptible to a punch in the face. You cannot beat down what you cannot tag...end of story!!

You mean to tell me that Wally, who using the embodiment of kinetic motion aka SF, cannot speed steal anyone from Marvel for an Incapacitation Win (tko)? Really? Or IMP's? Instead you use titles as your argument? yeah....

As for ZH Parallax... if you think all he is a fear-inducing entity, you do not know who he is, just read up on @willpayton's arguments for ZHP. No one has done what he has done and there is no one strong enough to even push ZHP. As for Strange/Wanda/RKT/Surfer... they cannot handle a torch to him combined or singular. No one can handle Parallax here, from both DC and Marvel.

good day

even with all that prep the jla cant defend against power like that... especially if the avengers get prep too. avengers ftw

You take what I say and everyone else says and spin it to what you want. I never said Wally loses to everyone. But you keep coming at people "who can touch Wally" you don't have to be as fast as Wally to touch him, second you haven't responded on other then Strange/Witch who has Wally physically really been able to take out on the level of anyone else outside of those 2? As far as Parallax, you are saying someone above Odin level can't even begin to effect him? That is just insane. Combined with the power with mystic arts of Strange that is quite a force. RKT has magic that is even on par with Strange, but to combine the two in a battle is just nuts, to even say that those 2 can't handle a torch to him. That is just your favortism towards DC.

Rune King Thor and Surfer can solo alone, add Void and this is a definite win for Marvel.

How in the h*ll will Wally hurt Thor IN DESTROYER ARMOUR(Remember, this is the same armor that took on celestials)? Plus it's RK Thor. Also Silver Surfer can stick with Wally in the speed department, so he isn't speedblitzing anyone. Telepathy has shown to have no affect on Hulk, and I doubt it would work on a RK Thor, who is even more powerful than ODIN! ODIN! Did I also mention a RK THOR!?!?!?

Wally is not the most powerful guy here. Let's get that straight.

Rocking entire universes is a warp speed(Faster-than-Light) feat. A HUGE one. People refer to it as "realiy warping" but fail to see that term's real significance.

That is something Scarlet Witch, Odin Force-Thor, Sentry, and Hulk have been shown to do. They have even been shown to do this as an indirect effect of combat.

In a fight, when like-forces collide, 99.99 percert of that force should cancel out between the two forces. These Marvel characters i just mentioned have been shown rocking and decimating universes merely by the collision of them and their opponent's power. The tiny bit of leftover force from their collsion was enough to decimate universes!!!! That's just crazy powerful.

Silver Surfer is an insignificant spec to ZH Parallax.

Even skyfather-level characters would not stop him. The DC universe has plenty of skyfather level people, reality warpers, and magic users, and they all got killed when Hal destroyed the universe. Spectre is far above skyfather level, and he couldnt stop Hal even after Hal spent enough energy to destroy and recreate the universe.

Stop the fanboyism. Odin took on multiple Celestials Living Tribunal(LT> Spectre) level, and even though he lost, that is an incredible feat that 98% of comic book character's can't do. Now Rune King Thor is known to be far above skyfather level, near reality warp. And there is no DEFINITE proof that Hal destroyed everyone in the Universe, just the Universe it self, and that is even questionable. For all we know he could have transported it.

He took a blast from a celestial, which is enough to destroy a universe. And this is the same Celestial that trashed Odin.

Now if Odin can hold his own, imagine what a Rune King Thor, with Destroyer can do?

Void destroyed Molecule Man, and beyonder is a reality warper who has the ability to destroy the universe. Add that with Scarlet Witch and there is NO WAY DC is winning. The only true threat they have is Paralax, and he is no where near enough.

Marvel team.

RKT with destroyer and Superman only gets to go skinny dipping for 3 days?

Does anyone know how fast sun dipped supes is? He was comparable to flash beforehand, so....wouldn't he be almost as fast with the power boost? N if regular supes can bench a planet before flexing and smashing it to bits, then I'd imagine sun dipped could dash in with the flash and absolutely murder the hulk and tag team IM punch Thor to oblivion...fast as he may be he ain't that fast. IM punch is the tact nuke of comics lol and multiples? Forget it. Femtos and parallax should be able to hold off strange and Scarlett while the speedsters systematically wipe out the remainders and punch away magic barriers. Silver surfer realizes its another DC vs Marvel thread and gets the hell out of there

Oh, the irony! It's the height of fanboyism to claim that SS can defeat ZH Parallax. Seriously, go make that thread. See how quickly it gets locked. Go on, do it!

Hal would snap his fingers and remove him from the universe like he did Kyle Rayner when he tried to sneak up on Hal during Zero Hour.

There is definite proof, it's called Zero Hour. If you didnt read it then why are you making claims about it? Hal destroyed the entire DC universe except for the people he took with him and Spectre.

Beyonder??? He's not even in this fight, so why are you bringing him up?