The ruineous four vs Sith team

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Savageslayer

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#1  Edited By Savageslayer

The ruineous four

No Caption Provided

Facing

Darth sideous

Darth Bane

Exar kun

Darth Revan

Darth Maul

Rules:

Kharin is in his avatar state

Ahriman is during post-exile period

All sith are in there most powerful state so if you want it can be just Revan not Darth

Lucius's curse is inn effect, if you do not know then here it is, whoever beats lucius's if they take any sort of pleasure or satisfaction in the kill.

Sideous can TP people but it most likely will not work on these guys

Enjoy :D

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Savageslayer

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@jwwprod @wut@killerwasp I posted this one and tweaked teams a little. tag some people for me, I want a good debate for both sides, and i don't know any people other then you guys that have positions for both sides.

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Wut

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#3  Edited By Wut

I highly doubt Exile Ahriman could do much to DE Sidious.

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Savageslayer

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#4  Edited By Savageslayer

@wut changing period real quick

No anyone that might have a good opinion on this matter other then those already tagged?

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deactivated-5dace575ce059

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=/ Honestly i can't really debate, their is a lot of ifs and buts in these type of debates, but here lets make things i guess simple and equal to a point. Warp = Force ( regardless of how they come about ik theres a big different ), power weapons and light sabers = same, and assuming u are implying all four chaos champions get a long enough to where they actually fight as ( brothers ), likewise for the sith then heres my answer.

Chaos wins due to a few factors. Alike of the magic that Ahriman uses will cause sidious problems ( due to the era u picked for him ), anyone who kills lucius simply changes into him or so after, i only say this because of how much of a pain lucius will be when fighting any of them. On top of that Kharn will simply be able to ignore a lot of the force powers especially the higher up end ones due to simply Khorne saying, No. Typhus if we say his plague stuff works will actually cause the tides to turn for them in a huge favor. Wut and others will disagree, but i feel nurgle's plagues from Typhus will cause great effect especially physical stats. Imo because of them being that powerful i feel they could over come the sith. However, this also depends on Darth Sidious' era as well, if we go by prime i would have to disagree with wut on this and say he wins it for the sith. The guy as i said before is on par with the emperor per say on just about everything besides physical durability, im not saying he isnt durable just simply not durable enough to hang with the god emperor and exchange punch per punch. Would he be durable enough to face the chaos champions in that? Possibly i doubt it on Kharn due to him tanking huge damage from his Primarch and living, and Typhus feels no pain due to being a servant of nurgle, and also is considered more durable than others due to his term armor, so this is literally the simplest as it gets and by far slightly leaning towards WH 40k.

In which im implying that force = warp and so on. Imo if we did it the other way around it'd be different and unanswerable imo. I mean granted force has TK and TP, i just doubt TP will work on someone like kharn and possibly Ahriman. If we applied the TK and TP though and other sith abilities i have no idea how it'd effect them, for most jedi and sith alike dont bare themselves im super powerful armor and this is known quite a bit, so i'd say lightning would be different for each person, and that considering Eldar imo have similar abilities I think the Champs could again over come in, because IIRC each of them has fought eldar especially Kharn and Ahriman ( black library and 13th Black Crusade ), and ik Lucius and Typhus would have fought them as well, so in the end that mite go out the window. I'm just uncertain though on how some of the more powerful force abilities would work on them, which is prolly why these types never get formed cause of it.

@strider92@detrolord thoughts?

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Strider1992

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If this is current Kharn then i'll take the 40kers due to the upgrade to his blessing.

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Wut

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#7  Edited By Wut

@killerwasp: I just think a Post-Exile Ahriman and DE Sidious fight would be awesome to watch. (If you were to ask me, I would give a slight edge to DE Sidious.)

Sidious would have superior 'prep' abilities. I would give Ahriman superior pre-cog. Ahriman would be stronger and have greater durability (I don't count the clone transfer), while Sidious would be much faster and agile. In terms of offensively, I would consider them very close with Ahriman having some really strong abilities such as causing people to explode by waving at them, launching a warp tornado that smeared men on walls and tore lasbolts.. (Yea... tore lasers... I don't even..) out of the sky while Sidious is the better close combat warrior (could be debated using the Dawn of War Tempest feats.... but... I am not a huge fan of those novels) and Sidious has vastly superior TK feats.

TP is highly unlikely against Ahriman as he has 'mindraped' people across entire battlefields before... as in smashed through the defenses of their minds and fed their souls to daemons. Mental battles are very, very common in 40k as well, so it is very unlikely Ahriman will be overwhelmed in TP.

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Strider1992

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@wut: I would pay to see that fight and I agree with your summary with two small exceptions.

1. While you may not be a fan of the Tempest novel (and too be honest neither am I. John French's Ahriman is by far the best) those close combat feats are not inconsistent. He was curbing Harlequins in Atlas Infernal and ever took on a Shadowseer in combat so I think his sword skills are exceedingly dangerous and more than likely on par with Sidious.

2. Ahriman is a very dangerous prepper. I'm pretty sure he booby trapped an entire planet at one point. While he may not be as smart as Sidious his pre-cog gives him a significant advantage when it comes to prep. So I would say he was the more dangerous prepper. Sans pre-cog i'd take Sidious but with it Ahriman has an advantage imo.

I think this fight would be VERY close to a point I wouldn't want to call the winner.

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@strider92: If not current Kharn, we'd have to ask the op, but just assuming not?

@wut: Well there is Sidious' feats as well. Most if not all Credited to Silver

Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.

The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be Palpatine?

Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.

He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear.

-- Taken from Revenge of the Sith

^ moving so fast, that not even anakin could really see what was going on. It's also been known that Sidious was also holding back during this time and mace was force amped, and this is no where near the Emperor's Prime.

Palpatine has spent decades studying the most arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines. It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure.

--Taken from Dark Empire Sourcebook

^ Pretty obvious Sidious knows just about all the force powers their can possibly be known.

The moment the Emperor "died" at the Battle of Endor, Droga fell into an inexplicable insanity, butchering his crew and causing the Emperor's Shadow to plunge into Kaal's oceans. Even as he perished, Palpatine used the dark side knowledge the Sith Lords had granted him years earlier to rend space itself and transmigrate his essence across lightyears to Droga's body. The infusion of Palpatine's overwhelming dark side energies reduced Droga to incoherent madness. Eventually, Palpatine's Grand Vizier Pestage was able to find Droga and tear the Emperor's essence from Droga's body.

--Taken from Gamer #5

Taking full control of someone and them from light years away.

Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source.

Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.

Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me—"

This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Sidious' lightning is so powerful that it was bending mace's light saber, and this is while hes holding back trying to convince anakin to side with him and kill windu.

Garrbo V'Droz almost dropped his glow rod when it shined off a face he recognized in one of the chambers. There was a grim smile on its face. The green-haired occupant of the chamber was someone with whom Garrbo V'Droz was intimately familiar: his brother, the construction foreman.

Whirling on his patron, he whimpered, "What is the meaning of this?" Emperor Palpatine smiled and said simply, "It means that you and I are the only ones left who know the way through the labyrinth to my...home for treasures too valuable even for my museum above. And soon, it will just be me," the Emperor grinned horribly, as Garrbo V'Droz cowered.

"Don't worry, my friend," hissed the dark figure, gesturing grandly at a vacant spot in the chamber, "you shall have a place of honor here. You've earned it."

Palpatine raised his hands, preparing to strike, and then, allowing himself a final moment to savor the fear in his victim, added, "And if 1 ever need your services again, I will not hesitate to clone you."

V'Droz cringed as the Emperor threw vicious bolts of lightning from his hands and ensured that the galaxy's finest architect was forever a part of his last, greatest work.

--Taken from The Thrawn Trilogy Sourcebook

Killing a person with lighting with ease.

Creates a wormhole without a problem

Throughout the worlds submissive to the Empire, Byss is renowned as a paradise, whose siren call multitudes to willingly apply for emigration to its shores. Once there, wrapped in the power of the dark side, the immigrants become completely submissive, their life energy forever enslaved to the mind that would devour a galaxy.

--Taken from the Dark Empire endnotes

Byss is known to have almost 20 billion people living on that planet, and he simply draining the life force from that planet slowly without a problem.

What better lure for multitudes than Byss's siren call of beauty and peace? Once there, their wills are destroyed by the Emperor and his Adepts, and replaced with an illusion of tranquility as they blissfully surrender their life energy to sustain the Emperor.

--Taken from Dark Empire Sourcebook

Controlling over that 20 billion without any problem at all.

Anyway just some simple feats he's got under him. I think DE or Sidious in his prime could win a solid over Ahriman, but it'd take a lot of time in doing so.

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Strider1992

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#10  Edited By Strider1992

@killerwasp: Then imo it would probably be very close. I wouldn't want to call it due to the combination of a very level playing field and a lack of knowledge of the Sith team. Typhus would be the MVP if Kharn isn't current imo though whether thats enough to win or not is an entirely different matter.

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Wut

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@strider92:

1. Yes, that happened in Tempest though, which I noted would make the difference in skill debatable if we used that novel. (That novel was pretty bad though...) So, I do agree that if we use those feats and then show how strong said Eldar in question are, it would make the difference in melee skill a very questionable debate.

2. By prep abilities, I didn't mean that he was a better planner, per say, merely that he has larger, and more powerful, displayed abilities with the aid of prep then Ahriman has (Fleet eating wormhole... although one could argue that Ahriman has come close to this feat by summoning the Warp Leviathan with no difficulty). Aye, I remember that ambush. Used Rubric Marines and made the Space Marines think they were statues that the cultist had made in their worship. Surprised the crap out of them when the Statues started to fire at them.

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@strider92: Finally someone who enjoys Typhus! XD ( not saying anyone else doesn't ) but still that poor guy never gets any respect. XD *looks at wut, detro, jwwprod, etc.*. XD

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#13  Edited By Wut

@killerwasp: Don't get me wrong, I am well aware of Sidious feats.

However, the life drain has no place here. It was done slowly and overtime. A luxury he does not have here. The wormhole was not done with ease or spontaneously nor can he fire it off anytime he wishes. He has very little control over it, and it does take time to do making it, also, a non-factor in this.

Having to go lightyears away to possess another body would be... BFR... The combat ones I am already aware of, but he doesn't have crazy strong instant powers that make him above Ahriman to where it would be a no contest. The fight would be very close, very brutal, and very awesome to watch due to them having very close abilities in terms of combat.

Sidious ragdolls, Ahriman makes a tornado that can pull light, itself. Sidious instantly fries with lightning. Ahriman causes people to explode (I mean.. explode... like a grenade was inside them) by waving at them. Neither of them truly have a power, not related to prep or useless in this fight, Sidious summoning a wormhole (Force Storm) is as useless here as Ahriman summoning a Warp Leviathan, that makes it a clear win for either.

EDIT: Right, sorry, forgot to address the TP. Ahriman has ripped control of Rubric Marines away from an entire unit of Thousand Son Sorcerers when he was at his weakest (Exile) with ease. This isn't mind rapping unaware people with no mental defenses even on a planetary scale (Psykers below Ahriman, way below Ahriman, have done this in the Eisenhorn novels), this is fighting other psykers who are trained in defending their minds and taking it away. Neither of them are going to win through TP.

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@wut said:

1. Yes, that happened in Tempest though, which I noted would make the difference in skill debatable if we used that novel. (That novel was pretty bad though...) So, I do agree that if we use those feats and then show how strong said Eldar in question are, it would make the difference in melee skill a very questionable debate.

  • Curbing Harlequin's and curbing that Solitaire happened in DOW: Tempest
  • Curbing Harlequin's and fighting that Shadowseer happened in Atlas Infernal.

2 different books by two different authors with very similar results on the same opponents. I'd say his fighting ability is very consistent.

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juiceboks

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#15 juiceboks  Moderator

@wut said:

@killerwasp: Don't get me wrong, I am well aware of Sidious feats.

However, the life drain has no place here. It was done slowly and overtime. A luxury he does not have here. The wormhole was not done with ease or spontaneously nor can he fire it off anytime he wishes. He has very little control over it, and it does take time to do making it, also, a non-factor in this.

Having to go lightyears away to possess another body would be... BFR... The combat ones I am already aware of, but he doesn't have crazy strong instant powers that make him above Ahriman to where it would be a no contest. The fight would be very close, very brutal, and very awesome to watch due to them having very close abilities in terms of combat.

Sidious ragdolls, Ahriman makes a tornado that can pull light, itself. Sidious instantly fries with lightning. Ahriman causes people to explode (I mean.. explode... like a grenade was inside them) by waving at them. Neither of them truly have a power, not related to prep or useless in this fight, Sidious summoning a wormhole (Force Storm) is as useless here as Ahriman summoning a Warp Leviathan.

EDIT: Right, sorry, forgot to address the TP. Ahriman has ripped control of Rubric Marines away from an entire unit of Thousand Son Sorcerers when he was at his weakest (Exile) with ease. This isn't mind rapping unaware people with no mental defenses even on a planetary scale (Psykers below Ahriman, way below Ahriman, have done this in the Eisenhorn novels), this is fighting other psykers who are trained in defending their minds and taking it away. Neither of them are going to win through TP.

What makes you say that? Making Force Storms doesn't strain Sidious that much..and it doesn't take as long as you're making it out to be.

None of the 40k characters have a way to banish Sidious' Force Essence..so this is at best a stalemate for them.

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Wut

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@strider92: Really? I thought Tempest was when he faced the Shadowseer and Grand Harlequin?

@juiceboks: The point is he cannot simply 'do it' when someone is trying to shoot or stab him. Doing it at this close of a distance would be colossally stupid as he had very little control over it once unleashed, and he would end up killing himself in the process.

If he had get a new body via the transference... thus leaving the battlefield... the other team would win via BFR.

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@wut: "Don't get me wrong, I am well aware of Sidious feats." <-- ik, but im just saying theres quite a bit of his feats posted most of which a lot of people don't know i honestly hit the tip of the iceberg not saying he has SUPER DUPER more powers, but just in general.

"However, the life drain has no place here. It was done slowly and overtime. A luxury he does not have here. " <-- Technically yes technically no. He can do force drain, which i see him using along with lightning.

"The wormhole was not done with ease or spontaneously nor can he fire it off anytime he wishes." <-- never said he did it with ease, just saying he has done it without necessary a problem ( aka it not back firing on him and such ).

"He has very little control over it, and it does take time to do making it, also, a non-factor in this." <-- more and less a display of power.

"Having to go lightyears away to possess another body would be... BFR... The combat ones I am already aware of, but he doesn't have crazy strong instant powers that make him above Ahriman to where it would be a no contest. " <-- more and less again a demo of what he can achieve, plus he never said no BFR so.... JOKES ON U xD ( and before u start with the good old Ahriman will ban him just note i said it first! XD )

"The fight would be very close, very brutal, and very awesome to watch due to them having very close abilities in terms of combat." <-- could be, possibly. XD

"Sidious ragdolls, Ahriman makes a tornado that can pull light, itself. Sidious instantly fries with lightning. Ahriman causes people to explode (I mean.. explode... like a grenade was inside them) by waving at them. Neither of them truly have a power, not related to prep or useless in this fight, Sidious summoning a wormhole (Force Storm) is as useless here as Ahriman summoning a Warp Leviathan, that makes it a clear win for either." <-- ik what Ahriman can do lol.

"EDIT: Right, sorry, forgot to address the TP. Ahriman has ripped control of Rubric Marines away from an entire unit of Thousand Son Sorcerers when he was at his weakest (Exile) with ease. This isn't mind rapping unaware people with no mental defenses even on a planetary scale (Psykers below Ahriman, way below Ahriman, have done this in the Eisenhorn novels), this is fighting other psykers who are trained in defending their minds and taking it away. Neither of them are going to win through TP." <-- fair enough, but

then theres this, granted 1 man, but still.

Palpatine’s fury buffeted Plagueis. Blossoms growing along the sides of the pathway folded in on themselves, and their pollinators began to buzz in agitation. FourDee reacted, as well, wobbling on its feet, as if in the grip of a powerful electromagnet. Had this human truly been born of flesh-and-blood parents? Plagueis asked himself. When, in fact, he seemed sprung from nature itself. Was the Force so strong in him that it had concealed itself?

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

Not even Plagueis could scan him, and the force was so powerful with him that it concealed him.

Another note worthy quote is

Palpatine's body was destroyed. Separated from his clones, Palpatine was forced to survive in the maddening, bodiless existence of the void. Through sheer will he retained his identity, crossing the gulf of space to again take up residence in his clone body.

--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

He can form out of nothing from the void even after his death. So when u said that BFR thing, well here it is. Granted i never said it was easy, but it can be done.

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#18  Edited By Strider1992

@wut said:

@strider92: Really? I thought Tempest was when he faced the Shadowseer and Grand Harlequin?

Nah in Tempest he had brief tussle with the Grand Harlequin and it got cut off for some reason that I don't recall. It was in Atlas Infernal he fought the Shadowseer.

The eldar warlock’s eldritch fashions were crafted from pure confusion and his every step quaked with disintegrated reality. The length of the Shadowseer’s leaf-shaped witchblade sang at Ahriman, forcing the Thousand Sons sorcerer back. Ahriman barely got his Black Staff in front of the devastating sword sweeps. Immaterial energies spilled from both weapons as the psykers clashed, forcing Ahriman further back. The archway bulkhead crashed back down at the Shadowseer’s mental insistence and the metal of the Impossible Fortress’s walls melted and dribbled down across the seals, fusing the door shut and trapping the sorcerer in the pancratitaph with his enemies.

With Ahriman’s power and attention directed very much on his unwelcome visitor, Czevak’s levitating body dropped to the deck. From his perspective on the floor the inquisitor watched witchblade and force staff smash, both physically and immaterially. Where they did, the fabric of reality tore. The disciplined grace and furiosity of the Shadowseer’s assault would have carved a bloodthirster of Khorne in two. Ahriman was more than pure wanton destruction, however. The Thousand Sons sorcerer was not only an ancient and devastating warrior, he was one of the most talented psykers in the galaxy. More important than either of these facts was the torrent of unbound ambition surging through the sorcerer’s veins. He was the impossible made incarnate.

Pg. 219 Atlas Infernal

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Wut

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ik, but im just saying theres quite a bit of his feats posted most of which a lot of people don't know i honestly hit the tip of the iceberg not saying he has SUPER DUPER more powers, but just in general.

But I do know them. Most of his super duper ones don't apply in this kind of a set up. (Like many people just saying Wormhole when the opponents are standing ten feet from each other. It is just... O.o really?)

Technically yes technically no. He can do force drain, which i see him using along with lightning.

To drain what? Draining the Warp would be a bad move... nor do I think he could do so from Ahriman or Typhus. (The two psykers present).

never said he did it with ease, just saying he has done it without necessary a problem ( aka it not back firing on him and such ).

Yes, at space ships... not at someone right in front of him because... well... it would be really stupid to do so. (Although, if he could just get a new body, it begs the question why he didn't just shoot it at Luke and the gang when they were ground side and just get a new body, but whatever.)

more and less a display of power.

Yes, but we need combat related displays of power. That is why I never mentioned Ahrimans warp leviathan feats or breaking into the webways because, while they are displays of power, they don't really... contribute to this.

more and less again a demo of what he can achieve, plus he never said no BFR so.... JOKES ON U xD ( and before u start with the good old Ahriman will ban him just note i said it first! XD )

Lol I am not sure he could banish it via just... letting daemons eat it or something because I am sketchy on the whole relation there would be with that, so... I just say BFR and move along. (That is assuming he even loses, I hate when people try and find a hard point to latch onto rather then think out how a fight would go.)

ik what Ahriman can do lol.

I know what Sidious can do. :P I just posted that for reference.

fair enough, but

then theres this, granted 1 man, but still.

He can form out of nothing from the void even after his death. So when u said that BFR thing, well here it is. Granted i never said it was easy, but it can be done.

Yea, that is why I said TP really isn't going to matter in a fight between those two. I am sure they will batter at each others minds, but it isn't going to be a deciding factor since they are both very good at it.

Mhm, he holds together his essences, goes to take over another clone body, no longer on the battlefield = BFR.

I could argue the same that should Ahriman be killed, the Thousand Sons will just resurrect him as they resurrect the other sorcerers. (Although that begs the question of if Magnus would let them... hmmm.)

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Wut

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#20  Edited By Wut

@strider92: Yea, I believe something happened that made Ahriman fall back. (I can't recall what. It wasn't that the Grand Harlequin would have defeated him, I think it was because they bought enough time for something to happen. It was just a plot device.)

*face palm* I completely forgot he fought that guy when he was trying capture Czevak to get information on how to get into the Webway. You are right, so they are both valid feats for Ahriman's hand to hand skills.

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#21 juiceboks  Moderator

@wut Well unless these characters are relativistic in reaction or combat speed..he'd have more than enough time to create the Storms. Not saying that would be his go-to tactic..but it is an option open.

Why would he leave the battlefield for a new body when there's at least 4 fresh ones right in front of him? Now..whether they can fight off his possession is a different debate entirely..but they still have no way of completely getting rid of him.

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#22  Edited By Wut

@juiceboks: Nanosecond response times. Ahriman has stupidly good pre-cog (watches entire battles play out, between millions of men, in moments, down to the very last details of the single soldier), so sneaking it by him would be unlikely. That said... if he is in character... he may just enter the warp and leave, letting Sidious do it unopposed and kill off his rivals... hm... Tzeentchian people are frustrating like that.

But it would be extremely out of character for Sidious to do so.

Lucius... would be a fun idea to try and possess. Lucius works by anyone who kills him and feels a moment of... anything then becomes Lucius, as in, their bodies are twisted, their minds altered, and they are turned into the new Lucius. So I wonder what would happen? You possess me as I possess you, but you are possessing me as I possess you thus we are possessing each other?

Kharn can't be possessed due to his blessings from Khorne. Ahriman, highly doubtful, he is no stranger to possessions (daemons love it), and the Rubric would probably pose some issues.

Typhus... hm... he is a psyker... but not as strong as Ahriman. It could be possible (But he would be in a world of pain as Typhus' body is... a living playground of disease and decay. He is only alive because of the blessings of Nurgle, so it would be interesting to see if Sidious' power could keep Typhus' body moving.)

It would probably be easier for Sidious to take over the body of one of the other Siths.

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#23  Edited By jwwprod

@savageslayer: GREAT FIGHT!

I agree with Wut that this fight ultimately comes down to Ahriman and Sideous in which I think Ahriman should win after a very good fight.

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Ahriman and Kharn win alone. Typhus is overkill.

Typhus will kill almost everyone here alone with the Detroyer Plague. A Reality Warping level contagion. It wipes out a whole Space Marine Legion for goodness sake. Typhus was embodied with its power as the host. Also Wind of Chaos is good game to any Sith here.

Ahriman is way more powerful than Sideuos. Show me Sidueos using TK on the molecule scale on any foe. He cannot. Ahriman has and can. Add to this Warp Time which is straight time manipulation.

Kharn ignores all force powers dealing with TK or TP or Lightning done to him do to his blessings.

40K wins solid here.

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#25  Edited By Hedorah10

@wut Well unless these characters are relativistic in reaction or combat speed..he'd have more than enough time to create the Storms. Not saying that would be his go-to tactic..but it is an option open.

Why would he leave the battlefield for a new body when there's at least 4 fresh ones right in front of him? Now..whether they can fight off his possession is a different debate entirely..but they still have no way of completely getting rid of him.

Ahriman has Warp Time.

No Caption Provided

This affects foes and not allies as seen in the Thousand Sons novel. :/

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@hedorah10: It should be noted that Magnus did that. Not Ahriman. I am sure Ahriman can do warp time, but not at the level of Magnus who can outright stop time if he wishes.

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#27  Edited By Hedorah10

@wut said:

@hedorah10: It should be noted that Magnus did that. Not Ahriman. I am sure Ahriman can do warp time, but not at the level of Magnus who can outright stop time if he wishes.

Im sure he can. At the end of the Novel he was proven to have the abilities and knowledge Magnus had just by touching the book of Magnus.

As we both know Magic (choas worshipers in general) do not need Psy powers to have powerful Warp abilties. Many novels of non psykers with chaos gifted beings show this.

The Book of ahriman is a collection of Warp knowledge or Magic as Tzeentch worship labels it (god of Magic), and when Ahriman touched the book, he gained all the knowledge and secrete Magnus had collected in it.

In short he went from a low level pregog psyker to a Alpha class psyker of the highest order by just touching that book. In the 5th and 4.5 Edition of the Codex it states Ahriman is superior to the most powerful Lord of Changes in powers. Considering how powerful Greater Demons can be, there is no doubt he can replicate the feat.

I also did not post that feat to how Ahriman casting Warp time, only posted it to show what Warp Time does.

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#28  Edited By Wut

@hedorah10: The fact Ahriman was the keeper of the book implies he still required it. He cannot preform the feats of Magnus. It took an entire cabal to preform the Rubric, something he made after studying from the Book of Magnus (Which further reinforces the point that Ahriman did not memorize it all with a touch), said Primarch stopped the spell with a gesture. Just because you can understand something doesn't mean you can replicate the feat.

No... Ahriman was already an extremely powerful psyker before he was given the Book of Magnus. He was the second in command of the entire legion Pre-Heresy, while the strongest in terms of 'raw power' among them was probably Phosis T'kar, Ahriman was the leader of the Fellowship of the Corvidae which, just so happens, to specialize in pre-cog. He was not some 'lowly' psyker. Ahriman has never been a 'lowly psyker'. (Ahriman, himself, has admitted to there being stronger psykers then he in terms of raw force.)

Ahriman rivals some of them, he is still not as good as Fateweaver or Amon Chakai.

Uh, no. There have only been two beings that have shown true time stopping, the Emperor and Magnus which implies that doing so requires massive amounts of power. Ahriman is not at their level.

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#29  Edited By Hedorah10

@wut said:

@hedorah10: The fact Ahriman was the keeper of the book implies he still required it. He cannot preform the feats of Magnus. It took an entire cabal to preform the Rubric, something he made after studying from the Book of Magnus (Which further reinforces the point that Ahriman did not memorize it all with a touch), said Primarch stopped the spell with a gesture. Just because you can understand something doesn't mean you can replicate the feat.

No... Ahriman was already an extremely powerful psyker before he was given the Book of Magnus. He was the second in command of the entire legion Pre-Heresy, while the strongest in terms of 'raw power' among them was probably Phosis T'kar, Ahriman was the leader of the Fellowship of the Corvidae which, just so happens, to specialize in pre-cog. He was not some 'lowly' psyker. Ahriman has never been a 'lowly psyker'.

Ahriman rivals some of them, he is still not as good as Fateweaver or Amon Chakai.

Uh, no. There have only been two beings that have shown true time stopping, the Emperor and Magnus which implies that doing so requires massive amounts of power. Ahriman is not at their level.

Few things wrong here.

The fact is in the end of Thousand Sons he touched the book and had access to all powers known at the time to the legion. He learns all its "current" knowledge by touching it. States it in the novel. he had added more knowledge to it Im sure on the Planet of Sorcerers since the Rhubic of Ahriman was something he invented and not known already.

no he was not. he was a Psyker who could barely take down a Wolf priest and was slipping badly on his precog abilties, a source of his fustration in the thousand Sons novel. nowhere near Alpha status at all. maybe Beta, MAYBE.

Not what is written word for word in the codex. but if it serves your argument I guess we can ignore the written words that state otherwise :/

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No Caption Provided

He rivals the greater demons and has all the magical gear that rivals Magnus himself. I was wrong on being superior but he does rival on equal grounds in magical collection and power to Magnus and the Greater Demons.

Magnus has never frozen time to my knowledge. Source? Emperor has in the second Heresy novel yes. I read my novels and never seen anything where Magnus has frozen time. Source be appreciated.

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#30  Edited By Wut

@hedorah10: No, he used the Book to help create the Rubric. That was very clear cut. Ahriman did not just sit on a bench and come up with it from scratch. He tweaked and twisted existing spells in order to suit his purpose thus creating it. He then used his entire cabal to power the spell. The spell that... didn't really work as he intended.

What? Again, he did not instantly know everything. The fact he had to study and consult the book implies he does not know everything inside of it, at the very least, by heart and so needs it.

Barely take down a runepriest? You are joking, I hope? He did so easily. The only time he 'struggled' was when he was stuck between showing the runepriest the truth and maybe saving his legion, big maybe, or destroying the runepriest for his betrayal of their friendship. He decided on destroying him.

Uh, you mean during the battle when Tzeentch decided to start messing with them by making them mutate horribly where it became hard to use their abilities? Or when Magnus used his power to shut down their Pre-cog? Then yes, he did have trouble at that time. He also nearly mutated horribly. But you know what? T'kar, who had more raw power, did mutate, so I have no idea on how you view the 'slipping' of power to mean they are suddenly some little punk.

The fact that an Alpha psyker at the time moved an entire moon through the warp, yes, none of the Thousand Son besides Magnus were Alpha or above. (Magnus being Alpha +) You say Beta as if that was an insult. Do you have any idea on how rare beta's are? Alphas rarely appear because they are killed at birth. Ahriman has increased his power over the years with artifacts, daemonic pacts, the Rubric and expanded his knowledge. (Thus when he said he wasn't the strongest in raw power, he implied that knowledge and skill were superior to brute force.) This does not make him weak pre-heresy only that he has gotten ludcriously strong since then.

Ahriman is not as strong as Fateweaver or Amon Chakai. I find it hilarious you seem to think I am 'suiting my own argument' just because it says Ahriman is, in laymen terms, roughly as strong as a Lord of Change when I point out that he isn't nearly as strong as those two. (Not all Lords of Changes are considered equal. They vary with power just as Bloodthirsters. Amon Chakai and Faterweaver are the Lords of Change.)

Magnus does it twice in Thousand Sons. One he time slows, another he outright stops it for everyone but those he wishes.

Time Stop: Note the words used. The wind was no longer howling, the banners, which should be moving even slowly (due to said wind) were frozen. Magnus had stopped time completely.

“Be silent!” thundered Magnus, and the world stilled. All sound died as the wind ceased its moaning and salt crystals hung motionless on the hardpan. “You are nothing to me, Amlodhi Skarssen Skarssensson. I can kill you where you stand, before you or any of your savage brethren could lift a hand to stop me. I can smash your ships to debris with a thought. Know this and choose your next words carefully.”

Ahriman saw that Skarssen was not a warrior without courage, his aura instinctively rebelling at the challenge in Magnus’ words, but nor was he without the wit to understand that he was a mote in the face of the primarch’s power. He looked to his left and right, seeing the world frozen around him, every banner hanging motionless and every observer save the Thousand Sons like statues lining a triumphal roadway.

Skarssen lifted his head to expose the corded muscles of his thick neck, and Ahriman recognised the symbolism of the gesture.

Magnus nodded and the world snapped back into its natural rhythms. The wind blew once more and the silk banners flapped in the haze of dancing salt crystals.

The reason I said you could not use Magnus slowing down time is because Magnus did not use Warptime. Warptime is, essentailly, putting yourself into a little bubble where time doesn't really... work right. A time distortion bubble. What Magnus did was slow down time, itself. What he did was on another level which is why it was a, 'Whoa,' moment.

(I have read the Horus Heresy series as well... I don't see your point in stating you have read them.)

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Wut

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@hedorah10: Just saw your pictures, did you edit them in?

Having the same number of artifacts as Magnus is pretty meaningless. Magnus is vastly above him in power, Ahriman has spent the last 10k or so years searching the galaxy for artifacts while Magnus has sat in his tower brooding. I would hope Ahriman would find more cool toys.

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#32  Edited By Hedorah10

@wut:

No, he used the Book to help create the Rubric. That was very clear cut. Ahriman did not just sit on a bench and come up with it from scratch. He tweaked and twisted existing spells in order to suit his purpose thus creating it. He then used his entire cabal to power the spell. The spell that... didn't really work as he intended.

Yes he used the book, and much prep time of figuring out more things that was not written in the book. As well the help of other sorcerers.

What? Again, he did not instantly know everything. The fact he had to study and consult the book implies he does not know everything inside of it, at the very least, by heart and so needs it.

Not how it was written in the end of Thousand sons. i can find a scan of the page. Contradicts your view of it.

"Ahriman thrust his hands toward Kaphod, and unleashed a barrage of fire and lightning into the Lore Keeper's body. Such powers were the provenance of the Raptora and Pavoni, but they leapt from Ahriman's fingers as naturally as naturally as if he has been trained by those cults since birth." "Horrified, Ahriman ran down the slopes to rejoin the rest of his warriors."

Page 553 of Thousand Sons. He learn all the cults psy abilities to mastery after touching the book right after Magnus had his Back broken and the TS fled their planet via portal to the Planet of Sorcerers. You cannot deny this.

Barely take down a runepriest? You are joking, I hope? He did so easily. The only time he 'struggled' was when he was stuck between showing the runepriest the truth and maybe saving his legion, big maybe, or destroying the runepriest for his betrayal of their friendship. He decided on destroying him.

What book you read? He wrestled with the Rune Priest soul and it took void Sharks to kill the said priest :/

No Caption Provided

nowhere was this task easy for Beta level Ahriman. Ahriman had to mentally and psychologically bring down Wyrdmake, and needed the Void Predators to further help him kill the Rune Priest.

Uh, you mean during the battle when Tzeentch decided to start messing with them by making them mutate horribly where it became hard to use their abilities? Or when Magnus used his power to shut down their Pre-cog? Then yes, he did have trouble at that time. He also nearly mutated horribly. But you know what? T'kar, who had more raw power, did mutate, so I have no idea on how you view the 'slipping' of power to mean they are suddenly some little punk.

Wow, just wow. In the begining of the book Ahriman was upset by the waning of his Cabals abilities. the Novel started this way :/

The fact that an Alpha psyker at the time moved an entire moon through the warp, yes, none of the Thousand Son besides Magnus were Alpha or above. (Magnus being Alpha +) You say Beta as if that was an insult. Do you have any idea on how rare beta's are? Alphas rarely appear because they are killed at birth. Ahriman has increased his power over the years with artifacts, daemonic pacts, the Rubric and expanded his knowledge. (Thus when he said he wasn't the strongest in raw power, he implied that knowledge and skill were superior to brute force.) This does not make him weak pre-heresy only that he has gotten ludcriously strong since then.

my point is ahriman is now a Alpha and beta are dime a dozen in 40k lore.

Ahriman is not as strong as Fateweaver or Amon Chakai. I find it hilarious you seem to think I am 'suiting my own argument' just because it says Ahriman is, in laymen terms, roughly as strong as a Lord of Change when I point out that he isn't nearly as strong as those two. (Not all Lords of Changes are considered equal. They vary with power just as Bloodthirsters. Amon Chakai and Faterweaver are the Lords of Change.)

He rivals Magnus and Greater Deamon in terms of knoweldge and magical gear. he single handily nearly took down the Harliquins gaurding the Black library, more than any Greater Demon or Sorceror of Chaos ever shown to do. Even Magnus needed a complex ritual and tons of extra power to break through a webway. Ahriman by himself cracked it to get at the Black library and then almost beaten down its defenders the Eldar.

Ahriman accomplishments > Greater Deamons of Slannesh or Tzeentch of any kind.

Magnus does it twice in Thousand Sons. One he time slows, another he outright stops it for everyone but those he wishes.

Time Stop: Note the words used. The wind was no longer howling, the banners, which should be moving even slowly (due to said wind) were frozen. Magnus had stopped time completely.

Thats not Time Freezing, to me that reads like slowing time down to a degree that a second feels like a hour. nowhere near Speed of Light to be honest in time perspective.

The reason I said you could not use Magnus slowing down time is because Magnus did not use Warptime. Warptime is, essentailly, putting yourself into a little bubble where time doesn't really... work right. A time distortion bubble. What Magnus did was slow down time, itself. What he did was on another level which is why it was a, 'Whoa,' moment.

prove to me its not Warp Time? Read the description of Warp time. read the definition. It has nothing to do with bubbles as you claim :/ So unless you have proof of the slowing of time Magnus did by a different name, it might as well be the defined Warp Time.

It does not strike me you read them at all, or the Codexes. Now I see you just have different interpretations of the novels. So I guess we will agree to disagree as you seem to have a different take on events.

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#33  Edited By Wut

@hedorah10: Yes he used the book, and much prep time of figuring out more things that was not written in the book. As well the help of other sorcerers.

Yes, as I said, he used the Book of Magnus in order to create the spell. Most of it was from the Book, which isn't really surprising given the size of it, but as I pointed out before, he did not know the entire book by touching it. He had to read the book, delve into it, in order to find some of the answers he sought.

Not how it was written in the end of Thousand sons. i can find a scan of the page. Contradicts your view of it.

"Ahriman thrust his hands toward Kaphod, and unleashed a barrage of fire and lightning into the Lore Keeper's body. Such powers were the provenance of the Raptora and Pavoni, but they leapt from Ahriman's fingers as naturally as naturally as if he has been trained by those cults since birth." "Horrified, Ahriman ran down the slopes to rejoin the rest of his warriors."

Page 553 of Thousand Sons. He learn all the cults psy abilities to mastery after touching the book right after Magnus had his Back broken and the TS fled their planet via portal to the Planet of Sorcerers. You cannot deny this.

I never said the book did not give him a power boost nor did I claim it did not make him stronger. (He killed a monster earlier using psy flames as well as using biomancy to cause it to feel intense pain. It was more that it came easier then it used to then he just didn't know he could do it.)

What I said was touching the book did not make him instantly know everything inside of it as you claimed. What you posted doesn't contradict anything I have said.

What book you read? He wrestled with the Rune Priest soul and it took void Sharks to kill the said priest :/

... What? *rubs forehead* You do know he did that to make him suffer right? Killing him is one thing, feeding him to daemons is another. It is very clear he overpowered him very quickly.

"Part of him rejoiced to see his enemy so wholly destroyed," <--- He wanted him to suffer, to see him torn to shreds. It was not a matter of 'I just can't kill him, I am going to use the last of my strength to push him into the monsters,' it was more akin to 'I have beaten you, but I want to see you suffer before you die,' hell, Ahriman force feeds the Runepriest information about the traitor Horus before he kills him.

Are... you reading the quotes or just seeing what you want to see?

Wow, just wow. In the begining of the book Ahriman was upset by the waning of his Cabals abilities. the Novel started this way :/

What are you talking about?

my point is ahriman is now a Alpha and beta are dime a dozen in 40k lore.

Start naming. Only beta psyker I have ever seen displayed in lore was Agun from Gaunts Ghost.

Almost all the ones in Eisenhorn are Delta or below. There is one Alpha in Eisenhorn who can read the mind of every single being on a hive world (Trillions of people) at the same time.

Gammas are a dime a dozen. Deltas are rare. Betas are incredibly rare. Alphas don't happen.

He rivals Magnus and Greater Deamon in terms of knoweldge and magical gear. he single handily nearly took down the Harliquins gaurding the Black library, more than any Greater Demon or Sorceror of Chaos ever shown to do. Even Magnus needed a complex ritual and tons of extra power to break through a webway. Ahriman by himself cracked it to get at the Black library and then almost beaten down its defenders the Eldar.

Ahriman has broken into the webway twice, by the way.

No, Magnus needed the ritual to break the protective wardings on the palace in Terra. That is what caused the Emperor's project to break.

.... What? It does not say he rivals Magnus in knowledge, it said he rivals Magnus in artifacts and that he rivals Greater Daemons in knowledge. Two different categories.

I love Ahriman as much as the next Thousand Son fan, but you need to wheel back the wank.

Ahriman accomplishments > Greater Deamons of Slannesh or Tzeentch of any kind.

Why did you name Slaanesh daemons? That makes no sense. It says he rivals the daemons of his patron, that is Tzeentch by the way, not Slaanesh.

Seriously, your Ahriman wank, pull it back before you hurt yourself.

Thats not Time Freezing, to me that reads like slowing time down to a degree that a second feels like a hour. nowhere near Speed of Light to be honest in time perspective.

That is time stopping. You can try and read it anyway you want, it out right stats the world stilled. It did not slow. It froze completely.

prove to me its not Warp Time? Read the description of Warp time. read the definition. It has nothing to do with bubbles as you claim :/ So unless you have proof of the slowing of time Magnus did by a different name, it might as well be the defined Warp Time.

Warptime: "The Psyker surrounds himselfwith a dimensional instability." Jesus mate, read it. He puts himself into a little bubble where time moves differently allowing him to better view and react to the world around him. That is how Warptime works.

Magnus did not do this. Magnus slowed time, itself. He did not surround himself in an instability, there was no warp lights, not dimensional changes, he just changed time itself.

It does not strike me you read them at all, or the Codexes. Now I see you just have different interpretations of the novels. So I guess we will agree to disagree as you seem to have a different take on events.

It doesn't strike me that you comprehend what you read. More like you browse it, get an idea of what you think it is, and then that is it.

I am an Ork player, but I am also an avid fan of the Thousand Sons, you may continue to try and insult my knowledge on the subject by insinuating I have not read the source material, but you would be very wrong.

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#34  Edited By Hedorah10

@wut:

Yes, as I said, he used the Book of Magnus in order to create the spell. Most of it was from the Book, which isn't really surprising given the size of it, but as I pointed out before, he did not know the entire book by touching it. He had to read the book, delve into it, in order to find some of the answers he sought.

He knew all was written in it. unless you can prove me wrong that there was things in it he did not know? proof, or just your speculation :/ and try not to use the argument of how he refers to the book AFTER the events of Thousand sons when he added more to it.

I never said the book did not give him a power boost nor did I claim it did not make him stronger. (He killed a monster earlier using psy flames as well as using biomancy to cause it to feel intense pain. It was more that it came easier then it used to then he just didn't know he could do it.)

What I said was touching the book did not make him instantly know everything inside of it as you claimed. What you posted doesn't contradict anything I have said.]

Seems that way. the use of words "naturally as if TRAINED SINCE BIRTH" is the clue. its not a power boost it was knwoeldge. training and power are different things guy.

... What? *rubs forehead* You do know he did that to make him suffer right? Killing him is one thing, feeding him to daemons is another. It is very clear he overpowered him very quickly.

"Part of him rejoiced to see his enemy so wholly destroyed," <--- He wanted him to suffer, to see him torn to shreds. It was not a matter of 'I just can't kill him, I am going to use the last of my strength to push him into the monsters,' it was more akin to 'I have beaten you, but I want to see you suffer before you die,' hell, Ahriman force feeds the Runepriest information about the traitor Horus before he kills him.

Did he kill wyrdmake himself? no. Did he use outside help? yes. Your views are invalid :/

Are... you reading the quotes or just seeing what you want to see?

Your the one who sees what you want to it seems.

Start naming. Only beta psyker I have ever seen displayed in lore was Agun from Gaunts Ghost.

Almost all the ones in Eisenhorn are Delta or below. There is one Alpha in Eisenhorn who can read the mind of every single being on a hive world (Trillions of people) at the same time.

Gammas are a dime a dozen. Deltas are rare. Betas are incredibly rare. Alphas don't happen.

Wrong again. key words is Planet level in description. there is a handful of those beings in many 40k novels for chaos and Space Marines. There is Special characters like Tiguirus who has shown TP abilities across solar systems and infiltrated the Hive Mind! Same for the 90% of Daemon princes in novels. Dime a dozen. At least in alot of the stories I read.

Grade DesignationPower Level
Rho/Pi (lowest grade):Common human little to no manifestation of psychic abilities

Omicron/Xi/Nu/Mu/Lambda/Kappa (Minor grade):

Unconscious and minor level of psionic brain activity. Such low levels of talent only manifest in high-stress experiences and remain beyond the control of the individual. Phenomenon commonly explained as "good luck" or "fluke" occurrences

Iota/Theta/Eta (Mid Grade):

Conscious and moderate level of psionic talent. As the individual is able to control abilities with effort, subjects of Iota level and higher are true psykers and under the jurisdiction of the Inquisition and Adeptus Telepathica

Zeta/Epsilon (High Grade):

Very high level of mental psychic activity. Manifesting early, these levels of talent require the immediate attention of Imperial authorities and represent a true security threat.

Delta/Gamma (Upper High Grade):

Occurring in approximately one-per-billion human births, Delta and Gamma level psykers exhibit extreme levels of psionic ability able to bring entire cities under their control. Unless discovered quickly, death or possession are common results of the untrained mind being unable to handle this level of mental energy.
Beta/Alpha (Highest Grade):

Exceedingly rare and dangerous. Mainstream Medicae Imperialis discussion agrees that current human beings do not possess the necessary evolutionary development to contain Beta and Alpha levels of psionic talent. As such, the great majority of those discovered at this Assignment rating usually suffer from mental instability. Those who can control their level of psychic abilities have been able to do truly incredible and monstrous things, the scale of their abilities allowing them to bring entire planets under their mental command.

Famous Alpha/Beta level psykers:

-Ahzek Ahriman

-Mephiston

Alpha-Plus (Too Powerful To Grade):

In the rarest of all cases, the twenty-four point scale of the Assignment does not adequately characterize a being of indescribable ability. Such individuals, for all intents and purposes, pass beyond the scale entirely. These subjects are known as Alpha-Plus psykers. Unconstrained, Alpha-Plus psykers represent an immediate and catastrophic threat to the Imperium. In theory, there is nothing that a trained Alpha-Plus psyker cannot accomplish through force of will; from snapping a Titan in half, summoning a legion of Greater Daemons to crushing planets with their minds. Representing such a great danger, the Inquisition usually executes Alpha-Plus psykers on sight unless the possibility for capture is nearly assured.

Famous Alpha-Plus level psykers:

-The God Emperor Of Mankind

-Eldrad Ulthran

-Magnus The Red

-Apex Twins

Ahriman has broken into the webway twice, by the way.

No, Magnus needed the ritual to break the protective wardings on the palace in Terra. That is what caused the Emperor's project to break.

Twice eh, when was the second time as I never heard of that. like to read that story.

Also this is false. the reason the Webway is a safe place from Chaos is becuase the Webway in itself is suppose to be inpenertable to the Warp. just to break into where Slannesh birth (most powerful shown force of Warp power) failed to do so is a feat in itself. F**k the emperors little wards which are inferior to Eldar design anyway.

.... What? It does not say he rivals Magnus in knowledge, it said he rivals Magnus in artifacts and that he rivals Greater Daemons in knowledge. Two different categories.

I love Ahriman as much as the next Thousand Son fan, but you need to wheel back the wank.

I never said he rivals Magnus (though he really does) I said he rivals Magnus and Greater Demons in magical gear and knowledge.

Why did you name Slaanesh daemons? That makes no sense. It says he rivals the daemons of his patron, that is Tzeentch by the way, not Slaanesh.

Seriously, your Ahriman wank, pull it back before you hurt yourself.

I say Slaanesh simply becuase Slaanesh is unable to breach the Webway to get at the Eldar souls he disres period. Ahriman has. its connected as far as i am concerned.

That is time stopping. You can try and read it anyway you want, it out right stats the world stilled. It did not slow. It froze completely.

Stilled? At least the empeors fate states TiME and not Stilled which seems vague, but whatevea.

prove to me its not Warp Time? Read the description of Warp time. read the definition. It has nothing to do with bubbles as you claim :/ So unless you have proof of the slowing of time Magnus did by a different name, it might as well be the defined Warp Time.

Warptime: "The Psyker surrounds himselfwith a dimensional instability." Jesus mate, read it. He puts himself into a little bubble where time moves differently allowing him to better view and react to the world around him. That is how Warptime works.

Magnus did not do this. Magnus slowed time, itself. He did not surround himself in an instability, there was no warp lights, not dimensional changes, he just changed time itself.

Its states Surround himself. NEVER StATES THE RANGE!? Seriously, surround yourself means what by definition?

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nothing it the word definition states a set measurement man. It could be star systems, or universe in range. Prove to me its not.

It doesn't strike me that you comprehend what you read. More like you browse it, get an idea of what you think it is, and then that is it.

So in the end your best arguments is how you view it? thats fine, and understandable, but till you can prove me wrong with hard facts rather than your own view of it, i think you're wrong.

Ahriman is far superior to anyone here, and thats a fact anyway.

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Wut

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@hedorah10: You have proven me wrong... never... actually. None of your quotes support you or contradict me. (None of your scans from Thousand Sons shows any struggle between the runepriest and ahriman to suggest that Ahriman 'barely' beat him like you seem akin on trying to prove. If you are going to post quotes, at least try to find some that support what you say.)

You then started to try and insult my intelligence and knowledge which I found to be rather annoying.

I do not twist anything. I tell you how it is. You have already admitted to being wrong to me on details which is amusing as you insinuate that I have never read the codex yet I can recall things that you cannot.

List:

You said he did not use the book for the Rubric. You admitted later he did.

Said he learned everything the moment he touched it. Did not provide a quote that supports this. Agreed that he had to use the book, thus read it meaning he did not learn everything, in order to create the Rubric.

You said Ahriman surpassed Lords of Change. You admitted he only rivaled.

Yet I have not read the source material? Rather odd. Don't insult other people by making such assumptions. Tends to be offensive.

Ahriman Displaying other powers besides pre-cog before touching the book:

"Lemuel screamed in terror, and the monster turned its long, stabbing beak towards the remembrancer. Ahriman reached out with an open palm and crushed his hand into a fist.

The shrike standing over Lemuel gave a strangled squawk as its nervous system overloaded with pain impulses. It collapsed into a shivering heap until Ahriman stamped down on its neck, spinning around as his precognitive sense screamed a warning at him. He blocked another bladed beak with a sweep of his staff, sending a pulse of fire along its length.

The creature shrieked as its body caught light, the flames spreading over its furred body with unnatural rapidity. The flames fed on a victim’s life-force, and would only extinguish when the creature was dead."

Pg.355 A Thousand Sons

Used psy-flames and biomancy. Neither of which belongs to his Fellowship. Had yet to touch the book which supports what I said earlier, he did not learn everything from touching the book.

What surprised Ahriman, in your post, was the effect and ease at which they came to him. As if he had trained in those Fellowships all his life, as I said, he did get a power boost. This happens when a psyker touches an artifact of great power, but he did not instantly learn everything the second he touched the surface. If that was how it worked, there would no point in it being a book.

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Hedorah10

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#36  Edited By Hedorah10

@wut:

You have proven me wrong... never... actually. None of your quotes support you or contradict me. (None of your scans from Thousand Sons shows any struggle between the runepriest and ahriman to suggest that Ahriman 'barely' beat him like you seem akin on trying to prove. If you are going to post quotes, at least try to find some that support what you say.)

I think i did rather well with words that have defined definitions, and everything really.

You then started to try and insult my intelligence and knowledge which I found to be rather annoying.

Sorry, but I find your questioning of my views with what you think is hard facts annoying too.

I do not twist anything. I tell you how it is. You have already admitted to being wrong to me on details which is amusing as you insinuate that I have never read the codex yet I can recall things that you cannot.

I was wrong on one thing that I admitted too, that was the wording in the Codex of Rivaling and not Superior. At least I double check my info, so Sue me.

List:

You said he did not use the book for the Rubric. You admitted later he did.

What, where did I say he did not use the book for the Rubric? Everyone knows he consulted the book. Where did I say that?

Said he learned everything the moment he touched it. Did not provide a quote that supports this. Agreed that he had to use the book, thus read it meaning he did not learn everything, in order to create the Rubric.

Holy crap, your twisting words agian >_> I said he consulted the book after already touching it, meaning all the crap he did add to it well after touching it the first time. I also showed the quote of using the collective knowledge (Training is directly related to knowledge, as the word was used in the quote) of Cults that were written in the book like he already mastered said powers. Your missing the point of that or not understanding what i am trying to say.

You said Ahriman surpassed Lords of Change. You admitted he only rivaled.

Yes, I even went back and edited that after a minuet of looking for my scans. So what?

Yet I have not read the source material? Rather odd. Don't insult other people by making such assumptions. Tends to be offensive.

true that, you strike me as someone who browses as well. much like how you stated to think of me. So its fairly even there :/

Ahriman Displaying other powers besides pre-cog before touching the book:

"Lemuel screamed in terror, and the monster turned its long, stabbing beak towards the remembrancer. Ahriman reached out with an open palm and crushed his hand into a fist.

The shrike standing over Lemuel gave a strangled squawk as its nervous system overloaded with pain impulses. It collapsed into a shivering heap until Ahriman stamped down on its neck, spinning around as his precognitive sense screamed a warning at him. He blocked another bladed beak with a sweep of his staff, sending a pulse of fire along its length.

The creature shrieked as its body caught light, the flames spreading over its furred body with unnatural rapidity. The flames fed on a victim’s life-force, and would only extinguish when the creature was dead."

Pg.355 A Thousand Sons

Used psy-flames and biomancy. Neither of which belongs to his Fellowship. Had yet to touch the book which supports what I said earlier, he did not learn everything from touching the book.

He used very basic abilities of the Force Staff ("energy (fire) along its length") and such that even novice Psykers learn in 90% Novels and material. Also nothing in there stating he has mastered anything like he was quoted to have in my quote. Point?

What surprised Ahriman, in your post, was the effect and ease at which they came to him. As if he had trained in those Fellowships all his life, as I said, he did get a power boost. This happens when a psyker touches an artifact of great power, but he did not instantly learn everything the second he touched the surface. If that was how it worked, there would no point in it being a book.

Trained is the key word where your argument falls apart. training relates to knowledge or Experience. not power. you know dang well as a debater that power can be untrained. many Psykers in novels of 40K have great power but not that focused or trained. Others have little power, but focus and training it to a scalpel. The key word is "TRAINED SINCE BIRTH" was the words used where i draw my conclusion from. If it was raw power it would stated power, not train and with a time of experience like since birth.

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Does the word train relate to Power in anway? No it relates to knowledge and experience. This is a fact!

Again we can spend all day shooting holes in each others views, but if you prove anything to me is that you have a different view on some things that i do. I will give ya that. Your knoweldgable enough too, but I see faulty loginc in your Views as much you see in mine.

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Wut

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#37  Edited By Wut

You edited your post as I wrote mine. Thus this comes afterwards:

He knew all was written in it. unless you can prove me wrong that there was things in it he did not know? proof, or just your speculation :/ and try not to use the argument of how he refers to the book AFTER the events of Thousand sons when he added more to it.

You have yet to prove he 'learned everything when he first touched it'. You never provided proof for this. You speculated... wrongly. I just showed you him using other powers before touching the book.

... What? Are... you serious? You are now trying to claim that he was just 'reviewing' his own written parts in the book to make the Rubric rather then read and delve into the large tome written by a far greater mind to help, greatly, with this large spell he was making? Are.... are you messing with me now?

Seems that way. the use of words "naturally as if TRAINED SINCE BIRTH" is the clue. its not a power boost it was knwoeldge. training and power are different things guy.

I just posted about this. Again, as if it came second nature to him, as if he had done this over and over again. It was not knowledge. He did not start to suddenly do things that he did not know how to before. I already posted him using other powers outside of his fellowship. What surprised him was how easily he did so. Not that he could do so.

Did he kill wyrdmake himself? no. Did he use outside help? yes. Your views are invalid :/

You... are you real? I mean... are you debating or trolling at this point?

Your point it the single stupidest thing I have heard all day. So... you post quotes that don't support what you say... then turn around and try to say, "Well, because Ahriman force feed him to daemons, it obviously means he was too weak to kill the man himself rather then just wanting to watch him suffer."

Do you live in your own world?

Your the one who sees what you want to it seems.

Oh, the Na huh, you are comeback. Nice.

Twice eh, when was the second time as I never heard of that. like to read that story.

First time was in Tempest when he was turned back by Harlequins. Second time was during the 13th crusade.

Also this is false. the reason the Webway is a safe place from Chaos is becuase the Webway in itself is suppose to be inpenertable to the Warp. just to break into where Slannesh birth (most powerful shown force of Warp power) failed to do so is a feat in itself. F**k the emperors little wards which are inferior to Eldar design anyway.

Uh, no, that whole reason the Emperor's project failed, and he got pissed, was because they broke the wards which shattered his project. The wards he put up, the wards that were stupidly strong and took the ritual to break.

(If you are about to allure that Ahriman > Slaanesh, I am done with you.)

I never said he rivals Magnus (though he really does) I said he rivals Magnus and Greater Demons in magical gear and knowledge.

.... Ahriman has never rivaled Magnus in anything but amount of toys owned.

I say Slaanesh simply becuase Slaanesh is unable to breach the Webway to get at the Eldar souls he disres period. Ahriman has. its connected as far as i am concerned.

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Please... for the love of all that is holy... please tell me you did not just say Ahriman > Slaanesh? I stand corrected. This is the dumbest thing I have heard all day.

Stilled? At least the empeors fate states TiME and not Stilled which seems vague, but whatevea.

So authors have to spell it out for you to be able to understand it? Can't, you know.... respect and understand the higher arts of writing?

Its states Surround himself. NEVER StATES THE RANGE!? Seriously, surround yourself means what by definition?

Right, and you are now going to tell me that Ahriman can 'surround himself' with Warptime on a planetary scale. (Let us just ignore the rest of the quote because you seem to be in your own world.) Because Ahriman > Slaanesh, LOL

nothing it the word definition states a set measurement man. It could be star systems, or universe in range. Prove to me its not.

You are asking me to prove water is wet.

So in the end your best arguments is how you view it? thats fine, and understandable, but till you can prove me wrong with hard facts rather than your own view of it, i think you're wrong.

I am not sure anyone can prove a guy who thinks Ahriman > Slaanesh is wrong. They seem like someone who is so lost in their own preferred version of lore that there is nothing one can do to salvage their... well anything. I am out of here because you are ridiculous.

@strider92: What is your take on this nonsense? Did you get a weird look on your face at the Ahriman > Slaanesh thing as well?

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Hedorah10

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#38  Edited By Hedorah10

Yeah @strider92, i known you for a few years now and respect your views, whats your take?

@wut real quick.

Uh, no, that whole reason the Emperor's project failed, and he got pissed, was because they broke the wards which shattered his project. The wards he put up, the wards that were stupidly strong and took the ritual to break.

(If you are about to allure that Ahriman > Slaanesh, I am done with you.)

I do not blame ya if i thought this way. i dont. Magnus broke into the Eldar Webway which the Chaos God Slaanesh cannot. It happen. That is what happen. Not sure why Slaanesh cannot, i know he wants in, but it happen. Ahriman likewise through power and lore got in twice (I remember the 13th BC codex entry now, thanks for that), where Slaanesh followers and demons cannot breach the Webway where they like to at all. And it is known they like to which is why Eldar are careful to avoid the spots that were shattered in the Fall.

never would I say Ahriman > Slaanesh himself, but his best Greater Demons or Daemon princes? yes.

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@wut: @hedorah10: Well my intake is that this discussion over Ahriman is pointless, because no matter how much you shake and dance, the force is like an a door, when one opens another one closes, and it kills you. HAR HAR XD

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Silverrings

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This seems really close. I'm stumped. Good fight.

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#41  Edited By Hedorah10

@wut: @hedorah10: Well my intake is that this discussion over Ahriman is pointless, because no matter how much you shake and dance, the force is like an a door, when one opens another one closes, and it kills you. HAR HAR XD

This sums up any Warhammer 40K vs Star Wars thread.

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deactivated-5dace575ce059

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@hedorah10: lol

Sorry couldn't hear u over how they are owning the space marines in 1 shot with their pistol. XD HUEHUE

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Hedorah10

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#43  Edited By Hedorah10
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deactivated-5dace575ce059

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@hedorah10: Wp, wp, but not enough

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Hedorah10

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#45  Edited By Hedorah10

@killerwasp: Funny how Darth vader wishes he was a Space Marine.

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Sums it up whos he wishes to be :)

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Jacthripper

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Knew it was a mistake to open this thread

WALL OF TEXT

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Pierpat

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#47  Edited By Pierpat

I was not tagged for this.

I am sad now.

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jwwprod

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#48  Edited By jwwprod

@pierpat said:

I was not tagged for this.

I am sad now.

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Savageslayer

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@pierpat my bad brah, I'm trying to get more people in this. Your allowed to fight for either side. :D

@jedixman you wanna help the sith team?

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Pierpat

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@jwwprod: thanks bro.

@pierpat my bad brah, I'm trying to get more people in this. Your allowed to fight for either side. :D

Either side?

this offends me even more.