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#51 Posted by highaccuser (6991 posts) - - Show Bio

said:

@outside_85 said:

@xiix: how?

Turning them into glass, putting them in absolute zero, making them vomit out their insides, putting tornados in them, blowing off their heads, blitzing them, etc.

Assuming the Titans are so stupid to just stand still and take it.

This is a basic measure of power, and the Titans simply have far more than the Rogues.

These guys keep up with Flash on occasion. Boomerang beat a Jay Garrick clone, Weather Wizard outreacted Bart Allen, and Top blitzed Wally

"This is a basic measure of power"? No. Power is irrelevent if you have no defense for what's attacking you.

Piper beat the entire rouges, zoom, and intertia easily with immobilizing vibrations. He's easily planet busted and affected Top where Zatanna's spells couldn't. You know, those things that Despero can't do sh!t against.

Mirror Master is untouchable and transmutes people at the speed of light while blinding them, hypnotizing them, swarming them with illusions, blinding them, BFRing them, etc. And there are TWO of them.

Other than Flash I doubt they can get past cold field.

Weather Wizard can make them explode easily, and his versality compensates for power. He's actually one shotted Magenta, who herself beat a morals on wally. Hell, it's not stretch to say he could shut their hearts down with in EMP.

#52 Posted by XiiX (8452 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: That's at least partially my reasoning for Flash being their "saving grace"; The Titans have the means of putting The Rogues down if they can get the preemptive hit(same for The Rogues, both are packing adequate power in that regard), and Flash is sure to get the first, and can deliver it to more than one opponent, including the most dangerous ones.

#53 Edited by Outside_85 (9161 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: So that's your idea of the Rogues at their best. So what do they have that can stop Raven from turning them into sobbing wrecks, whats stopping Donna from separating their top halves from the bottom? Whats stopping Starfire from reducing them to ash? The Rogues are average joes with gizmo's meant to fight one specific foe, the other team features demigods and aliens that rely on other powers than speed.

As for MM jumping into the Mirror Dimension:

#54 Posted by Fastnoc (270 posts) - - Show Bio
#55 Edited by Dredeuced (5574 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85 said:

@highaccuser: So that's your idea of the Rogues at their best. So what do they have that can stop Raven from turning them into sobbing wrecks, whats stopping Donna from separating their top halves from the bottom? Whats stopping Starfire from reducing them to ash? The Rogues are average joes with gizmo's meant to fight one specific foe, the other team features demigods and aliens that rely on other powers than speed.

As for MM jumping into the Mirror Dimension:

There's no way this is canon with those costumes. Mirror Master and Flash have never looked like that from my recollection.I have no idea where it's from but that's like, way overboard version of New 52 Barry's costume and Mirror Master's looks like some weird commando more than a guy whose suit is full of mirrors.

You can't turn people in another dimension to sobbing wrecks and Top is a mental controller of pretty high order so I imagine he could hold off any emotion shenanigans. He's resisted and countered Zatanna's magic, after all. Starfire's blasts shouldn't even bother Cold, The Mirror Masters, Top, or Owen Mercer. Frankly, if you eliminate Flash from the equation, all Top and Cold have to do is defend Piper and he kills the entire other team effortlessly.

#56 Posted by highaccuser (6991 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: That scan is from the injustice comic. Doesn't count.

So what do they have that can stop Raven from turning them into sobbing wrecks

The anti-life equation.

whats stopping Donna from separating their top halves from the bottom?

Now I don't even know how to begin to counter that with so many possible answers.

Whats stopping Starfire from reducing them to ash?

Absolute zero.

The Rogues are average joes with gizmo's meant to fight one specific foe, the other team features demigods and aliens that rely on other powers than speed.

You really don't know a thing about the rouges do you? Tops power is internal, WW learned to become metahuman, Own has speedster heritage, and Piper is a vessal of anti-life.

The rouges gear isn't designed to take down flash. Mardon stole the wand from his brother who was not a villain, cold stole his from some scientists, Even and Sams gear evolved from a strange glass element with properites that have nothing to do with ant-speed, Piper made his flutes due to his obsession with sound, Heat Wave made his due to his knowledge on fire, Boomerang sr. used his becasue he knew how, boomerang jr. just inherited them, Top made his tops out of a fascination for them.

Their gear may be ideal anti-flash material, but that's not what they were meant for. The only one who arguably has anti-flash gear is Glider, but she's a non factor.

#57 Posted by highaccuser (6991 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: It's from the injustice comic, if you didn't see my post.

#58 Edited by Dredeuced (5574 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: It's from the injustice comic, if you didn't see my post.

I don't really know what that is but it's not canon so that's all that really matters about what I was talking about.

#59 Posted by TDK_1997 (14899 posts) - - Show Bio

@tdk_1997 said:

Rogues without much of a problem.

Curious to know why and how?

The Rogues are almost underrated everytime they are in a battle here on the Vine. Mirror Master,Captain Cold and Top are more than able to do this kind of alone. I mean Mirror Master can transport each member of the Titans to the Mirrorworld and just keep them there or even kill them but I guess he wouldn't do that. If you ask how, I am going to tell you - Cyborg is a big shinny thing himself that reflects things and that is what McCulloch controls and that is all he needs.

#60 Edited by Outside_85 (9161 posts) - - Show Bio

You can't turn people in another dimension to sobbing wrecks and Top is a mental controller of pretty high order so I imagine he could hold off any emotion shenanigans. He's resisted and countered Zatanna's magic, after all. Starfire's blasts shouldn't even bother Cold, The Mirror Masters, Top, or Owen Mercer. Frankly, if you eliminate Flash from the equation, all Top and Cold have to do is defend Piper and he kills the entire other team effortlessly.

After she moves into it she can. And I wouldn't say the Top is anywhere near Raven's weight class. The Top can affect people near him, she can affect the entire planet.

As for Cold; I don't believe his defenses are anywhere near as good as those of Brainiac, and this is what Starfire did to him:

@outside_85: That scan is from the injustice comic. Doesn't count.

So what do they have that can stop Raven from turning them into sobbing wrecks

The anti-life equation.

whats stopping Donna from separating their top halves from the bottom?

Now I don't even know how to begin to counter that with so many possible answers.

Whats stopping Starfire from reducing them to ash?

Absolute zero.

The Rogues are average joes with gizmo's meant to fight one specific foe, the other team features demigods and aliens that rely on other powers than speed.

You really don't know a thing about the rouges do you? Tops power is internal, WW learned to become metahuman, Own has speedster heritage, and Piper is a vessal of anti-life.

The rouges gear isn't designed to take down flash. Mardon stole the wand from his brother who was not a villain, cold stole his from some scientists, Even and Sams gear evolved from a strange glass element with properites that have nothing to do with ant-speed, Piper made his flutes due to his obsession with sound, Heat Wave made his due to his knowledge on fire, Boomerang sr. used his becasue he knew how, boomerang jr. just inherited them, Top made his tops out of a fascination for them.

Their gear may be ideal anti-flash material, but that's not what they were meant for. The only one who arguably has anti-flash gear is Glider, but she's a non factor.

Doesn't matter, Raven can move between dimensions normally, and I haven't heard the mirror dimension is any more difficult to venture to.

ALE, let me just remind you that the only time he's ever used that ability was in countdown, that he still had to play his flute in order to work it and he's facing at least two people that can take it away from him before he's had that chance.

You can start with the first.

Which it wont be after it's struck. Plus that field only extends to Cold.

None of which has made them able to withstand a blow from Donna.

All of which has since been modified to make them able to handle the Flash better. Anyways I meant that these characters were designed to challenge the Flash with their power the same way nearly all of Batman's enemies are designed to challenge his intellect when they cant challenge him physically.

@tdk_1997 said:

The Rogues are almost underrated everytime they are in a battle here on the Vine. Mirror Master,Captain Cold and Top are more than able to do this kind of alone. I mean Mirror Master can transport each member of the Titans to the Mirrorworld and just keep them there or even kill them but I guess he wouldn't do that. If you ask how, I am going to tell you - Cyborg is a big shinny thing himself that reflects things and that is what McCulloch controls and that is all he needs.

Which isn't going to do him much good since Raven can teleport between dimensions under her own power.

The Rogues may be underrated here on the Vine, but in this case they are far out of their weight class. Imagine if you made a battle with morals off and bloodlust while going up against the JLA minus a Flash and claimed they'd win.

#61 Posted by TDK_1997 (14899 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: Goint against the JLA is something a lot bigger than going against a bunch of teenagers. THey are indeed teens with a lot of training and experience on the field but most definitely they are not in the same league as the Leaguers. I doubt that Raven would be able to escape the Mirrorworld since it's a created world,dimension by Mirror Master himself and it is a dimension that Raven is unaware of.

Also each member of the Titans is a character that can be tagged,stopped and even killed by the Rogues.

#62 Edited by Outside_85 (9161 posts) - - Show Bio

@tdk_1997: Except he is going to enter it while facing her :) As for her being aware of it beforehand:

I wouldn't count on it, she was able to move so far off the map that not even the Monitor or the Anti-Monitor could track her.

You are right that going up against the JLA is something else, but not by much, this group of TT isn't some random collection of characters, it's well oiled, tested and proven machine. The Rogues and the Flash have lasted this long because of a mutual agreement in keeping it on a certain level, ignoring that may make the Rogues more vicious, but it also allows the Flash and his friends to cut loose... and they just have better performances under those rules.

#63 Posted by DarthAznable (7120 posts) - - Show Bio

Mirror Master.

Seriously though Titans have the teamwork to pull a win imo.

#64 Posted by highaccuser (6991 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85:

Doesn't matter, Raven can move between dimensions normally, and I haven't heard the mirror dimension is any more difficult to venture to.

And I've never heard of anyone venturing into it, especially when they're exploding from the inside out. I don't see anyone on the Titans who can resist that.

ALE, let me just remind you that the only time he's ever used that ability was in countdown, that he still had to play his flute in order to work it and he's facing at least two people that can take it away from him before he's had that chance.

He only used it in countdown, but Libra referenced him possibly being anti-life during final crisis(specifically that she thought it was blasphemy).

Also, who can disarm him on the titans? Specifically while cold protects him?

Which it wont be after it's struck. Plus that field only extends to Cold.

Bull. He's protected Wally with it. Starfire can't affect the field, nor can she stop colds blasts.

You can start with the first.

Cold freezes her at absolute zero so even though she can break out of the ice, her brain won't be able to process thoughts as nessecary to do so. This also happens if she hits the cold field.

The climate protects weather wizard.

The ALE blows off Donnas head.

Top and Boomerang are too fast for her.

Mirror Master isn't in the dimension he is.

None of which has made them able to withstand a blow from Donna.

No but they do keep her from touching them.

All of which has since been modified to make them able to handle the Flash better.

Nope. This has never been alluded to.

Anyways I meant that these characters were designed to challenge the Flash with their power the same way nearly all of Batman's enemies are designed to challenge his intellect when they cant challenge him physically.

No, the rouges were made in the highly questionable and gimmicky silver age when nothing made sense. They were discarded for decades because they never seemed like they were worthy enemies for Flash. Eventually, Geoff Johns made then significant and gave them most of the feats they now have. He emphisized how some of them have great material for fighting flash, but they were never made with the specific intent of countering him.

#65 Edited by Awesomedude (2152 posts) - - Show Bio

Wally might solo.

#66 Edited by Outside_85 (9161 posts) - - Show Bio


1) And I've never heard of anyone venturing into it, especially when they're exploding from the inside out. I don't see anyone on the Titans who can resist that.

2) He only used it in countdown, but Libra referenced him possibly being anti-life during final crisis(specifically that she thought it was blasphemy).

Also, who can disarm him on the titans? Specifically while cold protects him?

3) Bull. He's protected Wally with it. Starfire can't affect the field, nor can she stop colds blasts.

4) Cold freezes her at absolute zero so even though she can break out of the ice, her brain won't be able to process thoughts as nessecary to do so. This also happens if she hits the cold field.

The climate protects weather wizard.

The ALE blows off Donnas head.

Top and Boomerang are too fast for her.

Mirror Master isn't in the dimension he is.

5) No but they do keep her from touching them.

6) Nope. This has never been alluded to.

7) No, the rouges were made in the highly questionable and gimmicky silver age when nothing made sense. They were discarded for decades because they never seemed like they were worthy enemies for Flash. Eventually, Geoff Johns made then significant and gave them most of the feats they now have. He emphisized how some of them have great material for fighting flash, but they were never made with the specific intent of countering him.

  1. Again assuming he actually gets that far.
  2. Donna, Wally, Jericho, Arsenal, Raven.
  3. Having a thin barrier of absolute cold doesnt actually make it impenetrable you know?
  4. Even if Donna's hand freezes solid while she passes through the barrier, it is still not actually stopping her, so Cold's best outcome is taking her arm off while his head is destroyed. And this is assuming Donna doesnt just throw something at him, a rock will be enough. And still, this field is not something Cold has on constantly, he has to activate it, Wally has all the time in the world to take his gun away before he even finishes thinking about it. As for Weather Wizard... please, thats the same garbage logic that has some people think Storm can win over Wonder Woman. And seriously Boomerang a speedster? When was that added? Because I've never seen him move any faster than Nightwing.
  5. No it doesnt, none of them are as fast as her.
  6. Why else would you have a gun that shoots cold and a setting with a field of cold? If someone fired a bullet at him, it would just shatter and turn into more bullets.
  7. Their book of origins and powers say otherwise.

I have to say, your logic would be fine if the Rogues were dealing with people that exclusively move at normal speeds, but they aren't.

The Rogues may not get much respect, but by looking at this thread, the Titans get even less.

#67 Posted by CaptainMarvel4Ever (3000 posts) - - Show Bio

If Cyborg is on the team, then the Titans

#68 Posted by highaccuser (6991 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85:

  1. He's dropped into mirror world right in front of Wally unopposed. He'll get that far.
  2. I assumed we were talking about WITHOUT Wally, as was the premise of this discussion. Jericho may possess one of them(assuming Mirror Master doesn't blind him), but he won't have a clue as to how to use their tech. Remember what happened to the new rouges? The faster rouges can stop Donna(assuming she even blitzes in character) and Raven easily.
  3. Actually it does. Only Wally's ever gotten through it, and he was made too slow to even find Cold after that. Also, "thin"? Density is irrelevent. Sheer heat can't and won't get past it.
  4. It won't freeze her, just keep her perpetually suspended while he makes her as brittle as ice. Throwing something? Really? Cold threw a bottle at the cold field to demonstrate, and it just stood in the air unmoving. Bullets stop dead at it. I'm not saying weather wizard can beat people like WW, but I'm not making up what he can do. He HAS exploded someone with a tornado to their insides. He IS always protected by the weather. Everything I've said he can do checks out. You're thinking of Boomerang Sr. Boomerang JR. is Bart Allen's half brother. He's beaten a clone of Jay Garrick and thrown too fast for Wally to do a thing about it. Don't bring up nightwing beating him, because that's utter PIS.
  5. You're right. They're faster.
  6. He stole the gun from other people who made it for whatever reason. Yes he stole it specifically because he knew it would be great for fighting Flash, but that's not what it was made for. The cold field can't "shatter" it's not even solid.
  7. Their what now? I've never heard of this, but it's contradicted by their own origins. Trickster is a circus performer who made his tricks for showmanship, Heat Wave is a pyromaniac(by his own accord), Weather Wizard stole the wand from his brother, who used it for scientific purposes. Cold stole his from Scientists.
#69 Posted by patrat18 (9812 posts) - - Show Bio
#70 Posted by TDK_1997 (14899 posts) - - Show Bio

@tdk_1997: Except he is going to enter it while facing her :) As for her being aware of it beforehand:

I wouldn't count on it, she was able to move so far off the map that not even the Monitor or the Anti-Monitor could track her.

You are right that going up against the JLA is something else, but not by much, this group of TT isn't some random collection of characters, it's well oiled, tested and proven machine. The Rogues and the Flash have lasted this long because of a mutual agreement in keeping it on a certain level, ignoring that may make the Rogues more vicious, but it also allows the Flash and his friends to cut loose... and they just have better performances under those rules.

And the Rogues are a well iled, tested and a proven machine as well. THey have been together as long as the Titans and if not even longer and have great chemistry between them. They and Flash have not agreed on almost anything else rather than no killing, that doesn't mean that they are not showing their full potential or anything. Both sides are just not crossing that line because they don't want to go on a different level (in the Rogues case - going up against the JLA or just some other major heroes and in Wally's case - crossing the line of killing and becoming what he doesn't want to - a killer). Both the Rogues and Wally are doing everything they are capable of when going up against each other and the Rogues have some pretty great feats in such ocassions (mainly Mirror Master).

Doing something of that kind is a good feat for her but it doesn't indicate or prove that she will be able to escape the Mirror World of Mirror Master and to break free the other Titans along with her. It's a high-end feat but doesn't prove anything in this case.

#71 Edited by Outside_85 (9161 posts) - - Show Bio

@tdk_1997: I havent seen any proof the mirror dimension is anything special other than being MM's personal hiding hole and the Rogue's general method of transport. As for team dynamics, I agree that the Rogues are a great machine, but I am still going to point out that for the most part, they end up loosing to just one of the opposition here.

@highaccuser:

  1. He has to beat out Raven's psionics, not to mention Wally thinks and moves a hell of a lot faster than him.
  2. They arent even getting close to Raven in this mood, that's one thing. Secondly, Jericho inherits his host's knowledge of their powers, he's used Green Lanterns, Beastboy and Wally in the past. Thirdly, no, just no, the only one of Flash's foes thats faster than Donna is Zoom. But you are welcome to prove me wrong.
  3. Ah so it of the 'because I say so' school of physics...
  4. If it was PIS, Boomerang would move faster, but I've never seen him move any faster than a normal human. Plus, tagging Wally isn't a suggestion that they are actually as fast.
  5. Bull crap
  6. I was talking about the bullets
  7. You dont understand what I am getting at; Lex was created to foil Superman, the Joker to foil Batman, the Rogues were created to foil the Flash.
  8. I think you are severely overestimating how fast these people are.

#72 Posted by Frozen (13539 posts) - - Show Bio
#73 Posted by highaccuser (6991 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85:

He has to beat out Raven's psionics, not to mention Wally thinks and moves a hell of a lot faster than him.

Top has resisted Zatanna's spells.

Even Despero failed to pull that off.


The anti-life equation is much more potent than anything I've seen from Raven.

They arent even getting close to Raven in this mood, that's one thing. Secondly, Jericho inherits his host's knowledge of their powers, he's used Green Lanterns, Beastboy and Wally in the past. Thirdly, no, just no, the only one of Flash's foes thats faster than Donna is Zoom. But you are welcome to prove me wrong.

I don't see how Raven can stop Mirror Master. And going into the mirror world is by no means easy. It causes major disoreintation which Even has had to grow used to over the years.

Plus it's filled with glass monsters that regenerate.

Okay on Jericho, but Mirror Master can still blind him. Eyes are reflective surfaces as well.

Well I don't know much about Donna, I've only heard her at hypersonic before, but let's go ahead.

Top's blitzed Wally West. Morals on, but he's still likely faster than Donna.

Here's boomerang beating a Jay Garrick clone that stomped the outsiders.

He's even thrown them at speeds Wally admitted he couldn't react to.

So tell me, what has Donna done to top this?

Ah so it of the 'because I say so' school of physics...

I still don't see how Starfire can get through the cold field. It doesn't drop due to high temperature or it would disappear instantly due to the heat of wherever Cold is standing or Walking. I also haven't seen starfire get through absolute zero before.

If it was PIS, Boomerang would move faster, but I've never seen him move any faster than a normal human.

Well now you have.

Plus, tagging Wally isn't a suggestion that they are actually as fast.

He's not as fast as Wally, definently not, but he should be around as fast as Jay or Bart.

I was talking about the bullets

So was I.

  1. You dont understand what I am getting at; Lex was created to foil Superman, the Joker to foil Batman, the Rogues were created to foil the Flash.

Very true, however that's in no way all they're good for.

I think you are severely overestimating how fast these people are.

And I think you're overestimating Donna.

#74 Edited by TDK_1997 (14899 posts) - - Show Bio

@tdk_1997: I havent seen any proof the mirror dimension is anything special other than being MM's personal hiding hole and the Rogue's general method of transport. As for team dynamics, I agree that the Rogues are a great machine, but I am still going to point out that for the most part, they end up loosing to just one of the opposition here.

You want scans of what Mirror Master is capable of, here you go then:

Here is Mirror Master reflecting himself from a puddle and turns a person to glass and then just kills him by breaking him.

And here is Mirror Master blinding a person simply just because he has a reflection in his eye.


And now I will present to you a thing Mirror Master can do in Mirror World.



He can tap into alternate earth and realities and to bring people along with him to fight by his side. And I can give you more scans but now I have these and if these aren't enough for you to see what MM is capable of then I will present you more. And since I am in a hurry right now I am not able to explain the feats and to show you my scenario of the battle itself and how the scans are helping me to prove it.

#75 Edited by Outside_85 (9161 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen: Faster than most of the Rogues.

@highaccuser:

  1. Despero isn't insane either. Not sure what you are trying to prove with Top resisting Zatanna, Raven primarily employs empathy not magic spells.
  2. Perhaps, but it's not like the Anti-Life equation is something Piper has had for any more than a single story.
  3. The way she stops everyone else when she is is in the morals off mode: with a hard look (as seen to the right), sometimes she throws in some lightning to add to it. As for monsters; Raven's a half-demon.
  4. Wont matter, Jericho is essentially in if he makes eye contact.
  5. Not really a blitz and I seem to remember Wally winning in the end.
  6. Yes, there is Boomerang throwing things at an oncoming target at close range, I am waiting for the speed feat.
  7. Which was thrown from a mirror right next to his head that he wasn't looking at, still waiting.
  8. You are probably as aware as everyone is with the Amazons tendency to be able to deflect just about every ray or projectile sent at them. Not to mention Donna was (for a time at least) Diana's mirror image. Plus Donna in this mood nearly creamed both the Outsiders and the Teen Titans in a fit of rage.
  9. So you think the cold field wont budge at all when exposed to temperatures that makes steel evaporate? Also the starbolts are composed of energy, and energy doesnt appear to have any trouble getting through the field since light gets through and Cold doesn't turn into a block of ice either. Plus, if we are talking about halting molecules; Cold still has to breathe, so I assume there is either a hole in it or something.
  10. As you proved, no it isn't
  11. Sigh... comicbook physics...
  12. Perhaps I am overestimating the virtual duplicate of one of the most powerful women on the planet that has on several occasions matched the traveling speeds of Wally, but not as badly as you are about the speeds of the Rogues.

#76 Posted by Frozen (13539 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: Donna being Diana's mirror image doesn't mean much, she's nowhere near at her level.

#77 Posted by Outside_85 (9161 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen: She managed as Wonder Woman for a year, so I'd say you are wrong.

#78 Edited by Frozen (13539 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: Dick Grayson also managed as Batman, she didn't do much as Wonder Woman compared to Diana; she got rofltstomped in WW3 and was genuinely not that impressive compared to Diana.

#79 Posted by Dredeuced (5574 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: Pied Piper has always had the ALE, atleast that's the retcon to explain how he uses his flute to do the apparently magical thing he's always been doing. He just only started busting planets and popping heads during Countdown.

#80 Posted by TheTrueBarryAllen (5311 posts) - - Show Bio

Still backing the Rogues here - even with Wally being on the Titans.

#81 Posted by Outside_85 (9161 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: You know as well as I do that the ALE was just added to Piper for that story alone, hence why it's never mentioned before or after. And as I remember, it was actually Scott Free who had it.

@frozen: Yes, do lowball, Donna was Wonder Woman for a year that DC decided not to detail very well. And then equate it to 80 or so years of constant publishing.

#82 Posted by Frozen (13539 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: Nobody is lowballing her, she's just not really at Diana's level. Being Wonder Woman for a year doesn't cut it.

#83 Posted by Outside_85 (9161 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen: So I suppose Dick wasn't really Batman either when he carried the mantle in your world?

#84 Posted by TheTrueBarryAllen (5311 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen: So I suppose Dick wasn't really Batman either when he carried the mantle in your world?

Dick had the mantle of Batman - it doesn't give him the complete skillset and abilities of Batman & he did not have all of his full training nor does it mean that Dick could replicate all of Bruce's feats 100%.

Just like Wally & Bart both being Flash didn't mean they were automatically Barry - nor does it mean that Barry could replicate what Wally has done in terms of feats.

#85 Posted by Outside_85 (9161 posts) - - Show Bio

@thetruebarryallen: They held the mantles of 2 of the most prominent and important superheroes for roughly a year each.

#86 Edited by highaccuser (6991 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85:

Despero isn't insane either. Not sure what you are trying to prove with Top resisting Zatanna, Raven primarily employs empathy not magic spells.

Not really following you here. Telepaths can resist empaths and all psionic attacks.

Perhaps, but it's not like the Anti-Life equation is something Piper has had for any more than a single story.

Actually he's had it his whole life without knowing it. In rouges revenge he stomped Zoom, so it's safe to say he contiued to use it then.

You know he's a casual planet buster right?

The way she stops everyone else when she is is in the morals off mode: with a hard look (as seen to the right), sometimes she throws in some lightning to add to it. As for monsters; Raven's a half-demon.

You showed her doing so against one defensless person, not a hypnotist in another dimension who's protected by two high level mind manipulators.

Wont matter, Jericho is essentially in if he makes eye contact.

Even if Mirror Master can't affect him(which he can), it shouldn't matter that much. Any rouge here can be beaten by at least one other rouge IMO.

Not really a blitz and I seem to remember Wally winning in the end.

The definition of speedblitz is to attack your opponent many times before they can react, which is exactly what happened.

You're thinking of an eariler fight they had. Top knocked around him and Zatanna before leaving.

Yes, there is Boomerang throwing things at an oncoming target at close range, I am waiting for the speed feat.

Wha...? I don't... that doesn't...He beat a goddamn clone of Jay Garrick!!!!!! How in the hell is that not a speed feat?!?!?!?!

Which was thrown from a mirror right next to his head that he wasn't looking at, still waiting.

This is that habit of trying to debunk feats of yours...

Wally SAID he saw it coming but couldn't move in time.

You are probably as aware as everyone is with the Amazons tendency to be able to deflect just about every ray or projectile sent at them. Not to mention Donna was (for a time at least) Diana's mirror image. Plus Donna in this mood nearly creamed both the Outsiders and the Teen Titans in a fit of rage.

Deflecting projectiles is something non-metas can do.

Donna<Wonder Woman. Superwoman has been able to overpower her rather casually twice. Also, if your max benchmark for Donna is wonder woman level the Top and Owen are most certainly faster than her.

So you think the cold field wont budge at all when exposed to temperatures that makes steel evaporate? Also the starbolts are composed of energy, and energy doesnt appear to have any trouble getting through the field since light gets through and Cold doesn't turn into a block of ice either. Plus, if we are talking about halting molecules; Cold still has to breathe, so I assume there is either a hole in it or something.

Colds blasts have stopped Heat Waves flames. Those are hot enough to make Flash scream despite Flashes aura shielding him from any harm from the friction of moving at vastly FTL speeds and shrug off hits from Zoom.

I just assume Cold has a limited Oxygen supply. I honestly don't think we should make assumptions on how sceintifically accurate the cold field is. He can walk around with it active and it seems to stop gravity. Logically laser should get through it, but even more logically it shouldn't exist.

Besides, Cold can easily match Kory's beams for reasons stated above.

As you proved, no it isn't

At last you let your viewpoint change.

Perhaps I am overestimating the virtual duplicate of one of the most powerful women on the planet that has on several occasions matched the traveling speeds of Wally, but not as badly as you are about the speeds of the Rogues.

You've given no indication Donna is Diana's level. Matching Wally's travel speed isn't much of a feat. Lantern, Captain marvel, superman, and a bunch of others do it.

And you're underestimating the rouges extremely. That's the sort of crap I hate.

#87 Posted by Dredeuced (5574 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: You know as well as I do that the ALE was just added to Piper for that story alone, hence why it's never mentioned before or after. And as I remember, it was actually Scott Free who had it.

@frozen: Yes, do lowball, Donna was Wonder Woman for a year that DC decided not to detail very well. And then equate it to 80 or so years of constant publishing.

It's not mentioned after because the universe rebooted.

#88 Posted by Outside_85 (9161 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Final Crisis didn't actually reboot anything, unlike COIE or Infinite Crisis. And while we are on the subject, wasn't Countdown to FC near-universally panned and subsequently rebooted and ignored? (Except by Dan who claimed Countdown was "52 done right.")

1) Not really following you here. Telepaths can resist empaths and all psionic attacks.

2) Actually he's had it his whole life without knowing it. In rouges revenge he stomped Zoom, so it's safe to say he contiued to use it then.

2.1)You know he's a casual planet buster right?

3) You showed her doing so against one defensless person, not a hypnotist in another dimension who's protected by two high level mind manipulators.

4) Even if Mirror Master can't affect him(which he can), it shouldn't matter that much. Any rouge here can be beaten by at least one other rouge IMO.

Not really a blitz and I seem to remember Wally winning in the end.

5) The definition of speedblitz is to attack your opponent many times before they can react, which is exactly what happened.

You're thinking of an eariler fight they had. Top knocked around him and Zatanna before leaving.

6) Wha...? I don't... that doesn't...He beat a goddamn clone of Jay Garrick!!!!!! How in the hell is that not a speed feat?!?!?!?!

7) This is that habit of trying to debunk feats of yours...

Wally SAID he saw it coming but couldn't move in time.

8) Deflecting projectiles is something non-metas can do.

Donna<Wonder Woman. Superwoman has been able to overpower her rather casually twice. Also, if your max benchmark for Donna is wonder woman level the Top and Owen are most certainly faster than her.

9) Colds blasts have stopped Heat Waves flames. Those are hot enough to make Flash scream despite Flashes aura shielding him from any harm from the friction of moving at vastly FTL speeds and shrug off hits from Zoom.

I just assume Cold has a limited Oxygen supply. I honestly don't think we should make assumptions on how sceintifically accurate the cold field is. He can walk around with it active and it seems to stop gravity. Logically laser should get through it, but even more logically it shouldn't exist.

10) Besides, Cold can easily match Kory's beams for reasons stated above.

11) At last you let your viewpoint change.

12) You've given no indication Donna is Diana's level. Matching Wally's travel speed isn't much of a feat. Lantern, Captain marvel, superman, and a bunch of others do it.

13) And you're underestimating the rouges extremely. That's the sort of crap I hate.

1) Depends on the level of the telepath in question. So I am going to ask you, who has the Top actually influenced other than a few normal humans that led to Barry having him mindwiped?

2) In a story most people are trying to forget. 2.1) And I am the Emperor of France. The ALE has for quite a some time before Countdown (see Rock of Ages) been established as Darkseid's means to wipe out free will, not blow things up with.

3) First of all, you dont have a high-level psionic amongst the Rogues unless Grodd is somewhere I can't see. Secondly, if MM can hypnotize from the other side, then it stands to reason he can be reached by others the same way.

4) Jericho has never been blinded enroute while entering someone, he's been tossed aside and missed the taget occasionally, but only by Raven. And while true, the question is how many Jericho takes out before that. Since there is always some confusion generated when he enters an opponent, since the target is still aware, able to speak and see, but not in control otherwise.

5) No, a blitz is winning through speed, which isn't whats going on in that scan of yours.

6) Because the clone is comming right towards him. Boomer is using 'Garrick's' speed against him. Or are you also going to suggest Deathstoke is a speedster because Wally ran into his sword?

7) Wally's writer obviously wasn't talking to his artist when he penned that scene.

8) Funny... and full of it.

9) Ah yes, more silly logics. If HW's fire was really that hot, why hasn't he incinerated himself or the others. That said, the Flash's suit protects him from friction only, since he has none, there wont be anything that burns him when he runs. HW's fire is just heat, not friction.

10) And I stand by that Brainiac, one of the most intelligent and dangerous lifeforms in the DCU, has better defenses than Cold.

11) I didn't, you just proved my point for me when you posted your scans.

12) Because I dont need to. It's in Donna's origins that the only difference between her and Diana are a few years, thats thats bloody common knowledge.

13) You can hate it all you like, but shutting off their morals doesnt make the Rogues exponentially more powerful or likely to win when faced by people who hold back 90% of what they can do 99% of the time, especially not when they are actually also facing their own recurring headache, who they normally cant beat either.

#89 Posted by highaccuser (6991 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85:

1) Depends on the level of the telepath in question. So I am going to ask you, who has the Top actually influenced other than a few normal humans that led to Barry having him mindwiped?

You do realize affecting Flash is itself a feat right? He can speed up his brain to resist this stuff and it takes a great telepath to get in there. I also haven't seen better quality of psionics from Raven then Zatanna.

2) In a story most people are trying to forget. 2.1) And I am the Emperor of France. The ALE has for quite a some time before Countdown (see Rock of Ages) been established as Darkseid's means to wipe out free will, not blow things up with.

And yet that's how it was used and can be used again. You still have no defense for piper popping off the titans heads.

3) First of all, you dont have a high-level psionic amongst the Rogues unless Grodd is somewhere I can't see. Secondly, if MM can hypnotize from the other side, then it stands to reason he can be reached by others the same way.

I didn't say high level psionic, I said high level mind control, and I meant Piper. Even before he found out about the ALE he could affect Top where Zatanna failed. Once dessad learned about it he wanted Piper to mind control all planets for him.

Even isn't stupid. You'll only see him if he wants to be seen.

4) Jericho has never been blinded enroute while entering someone, he's been tossed aside and missed the taget occasionally, but only by Raven. And while true, the question is how many Jericho takes out before that. Since there is always some confusion generated when he enters an opponent, since the target is still aware, able to speak and see, but not in control otherwise.

I think you're missing the point. Mirror Master can easily jump into his eyes. That is the absolute ideal way to handle Jericho.

5) No, a blitz is winning through speed, which isn't whats going on in that scan of yours.

No, I blitz is attacking through speed. THIS would be a blitz as stated by other people due to the use of speed.

6) Because the clone is comming right towards him. Boomer is using 'Garrick's' speed against him. Or are you also going to suggest Deathstoke is a speedster because Wally ran into his sword?

...

I'll have to deconstruct this like you're a noob. It was a clone of jay. It was bloodlusted. It would've been moving just below light speed. Boomerang could process his movements, think about hitting it, then throw it so fast he couldn't react.

Flashes are completely consicious of what they do when they're running that fast. Using their speed against them in such a manner is impossible as a result. You clearly no nil about Flashes.

7) Wally's writer obviously wasn't talking to his artist when he penned that scene.

Writer has the say.

8) Funny... and full of it.

I. Need. An. Explaination. Don't just say this stuff with no answers.

The first time she fought superwoman was during countdown and she was getting knocked around.

The second time was when she was on Robinson's league. She was clearly inferior to Superwoman then also.

I've never seen Donna put at Wonder Woman's level, nor have you proved to me she is.

9) Ah yes, more silly logics. If HW's fire was really that hot, why hasn't he incinerated himself or the others.

Because his suit is fireproof and he carries fire repellant.

That said, the Flash's suit protects him from friction only, since he has none, there wont be anything that burns him when he runs. HW's fire is just heat, not friction.

It's not Flashes suit, it's his aura. That's how he carries around people without them burning to death.

Flash has been protected against non-friction based heat before, like tar pit and the core of a planet. It's been specifically stated that Flash's speed force aura was the only thing that kept him alive when heat wave shoots him.

10) And I stand by that Brainiac, one of the most intelligent and dangerous lifeforms in the DCU, has better defenses than Cold.

In what aspect? Better TP defenses, physical, technopathic or what?

11) I didn't, you just proved my point for me when you posted your scans.

Not following you here.

12) Because I dont need to. It's in Donna's origins that the only difference between her and Diana are a few years, thats thats bloody common knowledge.

You seriously need to rectify how popular you think Donna is, because there is no common knowledge about her, except that she has many origins, joined the titans, and has something to do with Wonder Woman. I barely know more than that.

You'd have to actually give me proof she's wonder womans equal, and then explain how the helps her at all here, because even wonder woman wouldn't make a big impact on this fight.

13) You can hate it all you like, but shutting off their morals doesnt make the Rogues exponentially more powerful or likely to win when faced by people who hold back 90% of what they can do 99% of the time, especially not when they are actually also facing their own recurring headache, who they normally cant beat either.

I'm only describing what they can and have done.

I never said the rouges could beat a bloodlusted Wally. The premise of this debate was they could stomp if he was out of the equation.

#90 Edited by TheTrueBarryAllen (5311 posts) - - Show Bio

Quick Question - Would Wally actually go for the - Femptatoosecond or whatever the ridiculous speed that boy moves at - blitz right off the bat?

Yes - he's bloodlusted, yes his morals are off - but no that doesn't change his fighting style.

Last time we saw Wally angry to the point of wanting to kill someone was with Inertia & all he did to him was remove all of his speed thus turning him into a living statue.

#91 Edited by Outside_85 (9161 posts) - - Show Bio

1) You do realize affecting Flash is itself a feat right? He can speed up his brain to resist this stuff and it takes a great telepath to get in there. I also haven't seen better quality of psionics from Raven then Zatanna.

2) And yet that's how it was used and can be used again. You still have no defense for piper popping off the titans heads.

3) I didn't say high level psionic, I said high level mind control, and I meant Piper. Even before he found out about the ALE he could affect Top where Zatanna failed. Once dessad learned about it he wanted Piper to mind control all planets for him.

Even isn't stupid. You'll only see him if he wants to be seen.

4) I think you're missing the point. Mirror Master can easily jump into his eyes. That is the absolute ideal way to handle Jericho.

5) No, I blitz is attacking through speed. THIS would be a blitz as stated by other people due to the use of speed.

6)I'll have to deconstruct this like you're a noob. It was a clone of jay. It was bloodlusted. It would've been moving just below light speed. Boomerang could process his movements, think about hitting it, then throw it so fast he couldn't react.

Flashes are completely consicious of what they do when they're running that fast. Using their speed against them in such a manner is impossible as a result. You clearly no nil about Flashes.

7) Writer has the say.

8) The first time she fought superwoman was during countdown and she was getting knocked around.

The second time was when she was on Robinson's league. She was clearly inferior to Superwoman then also.

I've never seen Donna put at Wonder Woman's level, nor have you proved to me she is.

9) Because his suit is fireproof and he carries fire repellant.

10) It's not Flashes suit, it's his aura. That's how he carries around people without them burning to death.

Flash has been protected against non-friction based heat before, like tar pit and the core of a planet. It's been specifically stated that Flash's speed force aura was the only thing that kept him alive when heat wave shoots him.

11) In what aspect? Better TP defenses, physical, technopathic or what?

12) Not following you here.

13) You seriously need to rectify how popular you think Donna is, because there is no common knowledge about her, except that she has many origins, joined the titans, and has something to do with Wonder Woman. I barely know more than that.

You'd have to actually give me proof she's wonder womans equal, and then explain how the helps her at all here, because even wonder woman wouldn't make a big impact on this fight.

14) I'm only describing what they can and have done.

I never said the rouges could beat a bloodlusted Wally. The premise of this debate was they could stomp if he was out of the equation.

Donna vs. Diana
Byrne Origins
  1. Then let me point out that Raven was affecting Wally since her first appearance, and she didn't really strain.
  2. Except that he doesnt have the power to do so, or you know someone taking his flute away before he's drawn breath. ALE was only his in 1 or two stories, then it was retconned away.
  3. If I am not mistaken, Zatanna only failed that one time you provided a scan of, as she was the one that originally cleaned the Top up. Evan is on top of other things, a former drug addict, so I wont really say he isn't stupid. That said, Evan is a human, he has emotions, emotions is what Raven reads and minipulates like no other.
  4. I doubt that since Jericho becomes ghost-like when he's locked on, and before that his eyes turn black. Plus if I am not mistaken, Evan has to walk/jump/hit a mirror in order to enter it.
  5. Again no, a speedblitz is winning through a high speed attack, not just attacking something at high speed.
  6. It matters squat who the clone came from, what matters is how fast it's going while moving directly towards the target before suddenly something comes flying the other way.
  7. Do they now.
  8. Eyes on top. (If you want to know, Diana did win this fight by giving up the Lasso of Truth that was affecting Donna)
  9. Yes, because a modified fireman's suit is certainly going to keep him safe from the temperatures you are implying is coming out of his flamethrower. And what about the others, who arent in such a suit.
  10. True about the aura, I did for get about that. But pritecting against the heat of the Earths core? No, I dont think thats legit.
  11. Every and all defences, especially techbased ones.
  12. You just proved my point, the clone ran into the boomerang the same way Wally ran into Deathstroke's sword.
  13. Ok... Originally Donna was a mistake made on the part of the original Teen Titans writers who had mistaken the young Diana that featured in WW for a seperate character. This was later retconned into the Saved from the Fire origins, where Donna was given a lesser version of Diana's powerset. Later still it was tweaked into the Titans of Myth origins where she was to be one of a number of highly blessed emmisaries of the Titans. Byrne (as depicted above) changed it all again, and made Donna into Diana's litteral mirror duplicate that had been lost in time. And finally it was turned back to the Titans origins around the time of Infinite Crisis.
  14. Same as me then.

With all due respect to the Rogues for hanging in as well as they normally do against the likes of the Flash, I still see them more often than not only managing by the skin of their teeth (the latest example is their fight with Power Ring and Deathstorm).

#92 Posted by TheTrueBarryAllen (5311 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: Alright - I just want to clear something up.

With all due respect to the Rogues for hanging in as well as they normally do against the likes of the Flash, I still see them more often than not only managing by the skin of their teeth (the latest example is their fight with Power Ring and Deathstorm).

This fight is using the Pre 52 Rogues; not the New 52 Rogues like the ones that you're referencing in the fight with PR & DS. Also - Mirror Master's abilities were on the fritz during that battle & Captain Cold had been separated from them.

Their abilities are not the same in Pre52 & New52 and they've shown much more control in P52 than in N52.

#93 Edited by Frozen (13539 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: There is still little to no evidence to put Donna is at Diana's level, being a ''mirror image'' does not equate to equal power levels, nothing of the sort has ever been shown with Donna.

#94 Edited by Outside_85 (9161 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen: Dude, when someone is your mirror image come to life in comics, you are more a like to that person than most clones are. And if you really want to know, at one point, Clayface managed to make off with some of the clay that makes up Diana, and Diana turned into Donna.

@thetruebarryallen: If I wanted to be annoyingly specific, I could say that as the versions are not stated, everyone would be in their New52 versions despite what images are used. But that said, it's not like there is a vast difference between the success rate of the Rogues?

#95 Posted by Frozen (13539 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: It doesn't, there's no proof to it. None. They have the same power-set. Cool, nearly every showing asserts Diana to be significantly more powerful.

#96 Edited by TheTrueBarryAllen (5311 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: I generally have to be "annoying specific" because often times people like you come into these battles, spout off nonsense, and haven't actually read the rules.

So don't tell me that "versions weren't stated" when they clearly were.

And no - the success rate of the Rogues is very different from Pre 52 & New 52; especially considering that the Rogues have had many more appearances within the Pre 52 than in the New 52.

Lastly - your blatant assumptions that Diana and Donna are equal in strength is baseless & incorrect. Being one's protege does not make them their equal.

  • Bruce Wayne & Dick Grayson are NOT EQUALS in abilities and experience.
  • Barry Allen & Wally West & Bart Allen are NOT EQUALS in abilities and experience.
  • Diana & Donna are NOT EQUALS in abilities and experience.
  • Clark Kent & Conner Kent are NOT EQUALS in abilities and experience.

There are no feats to suggest that Donna equals Diana in every aspect - you're just throwing down some random fights and going "Look, they're equals" without any actual explanation of the feat.

But - I've got a Chemistry Final to go to now.

Good day, sir.

#97 Posted by Outside_85 (9161 posts) - - Show Bio

@thetruebarryallen: Well excuse me for not wanting to go back to page 1 every time I want to post something.

Read the post from before again: Donna is not Diana's protegé, she is her mirror image.

#98 Edited by TheTrueBarryAllen (5311 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: So we're talking Mirror images now - good thing we've got Mirror Master to teach us that Mirror Images are NOT exactly the same thing!

Literal mirror images of Captain Cold // Mirror Master // and Wally West - Cold & West have no problem bringing their's down, it's not even a contest.

Being a 'mirror image' isn't going to grant you the same levels of powers & abilities - she may have the same skill set as Diana but she doesn't have the same power levels, nor has she ever displayed levels of power on the same scale as Diana has.

Donna <<< Diana.

#99 Posted by flashback0180 (669 posts) - - Show Bio

Beast boy turns into a deadly spider and kills her

.

the end

#100 Posted by Extremos (72 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm pretty sure Stafire+Raven+Flash could solo.

Going with the Titans, here