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#1 Edited by IZZR (4289 posts) - - Show Bio

Vs.

Rules

  • Random encounter
  • Pre 52 versions
  • All the characters in the pics included
  • Morals off
  • Bloodlusted

Location: Justice Mountain

#2 Edited by reaverlation (16023 posts) - - Show Bio

Rogues

#3 Posted by DemonKnights (5394 posts) - - Show Bio

Titans

#4 Posted by dondave (37991 posts) - - Show Bio

Rogues

#5 Edited by Lord44 (1440 posts) - - Show Bio

A bunch of Teens vs a bunch of Thieves??

#6 Edited by Fallen_Crippled (6456 posts) - - Show Bio

Interesting.... morals off and bloodlusted. I'd love to see what state of mind that leaves Raven in. I'd imagine she'd be quite powerful... And then there is Kid Flash. Who is the most powerful Rogue member?

#7 Posted by fightobessed (167 posts) - - Show Bio

Bart Allen is the only threat to The Top. Donna Troy could also maybe give the Top trouble, but it depends on her mind resistance.The best case scenario is Allen occupies the Top, Boomerang stalls Donna, and Cold neutralizes whoever didn't fall to The Top's mind games. Once the Rogues get moving they stomp. Mirror master can't be countered by any Titan once s he runs into his mirrors.

#8 Posted by chiq (1974 posts) - - Show Bio

bump Raven vs Mirror Master seems interesting...

#9 Posted by Pokeysteve (8338 posts) - - Show Bio

That Titan team is awfully reflective. Leaning towards the Rogues just because of Mirror Master.

#10 Edited by jashro44 (22266 posts) - - Show Bio

Couldn't a morals off flash solo? I thought the major reason the rogues were a problem was because they would have their defences and stuff activated before the battle began (prep)? I'm not an expert but I imagine flash alone is a serious problem....

#11 Posted by termiteone4ever (7573 posts) - - Show Bio

Rogues

#12 Posted by highaccuser (7026 posts) - - Show Bio

Rouges should stom-wait is that Wally West? Might be a problem, but even morals off he restrcicts his speed, so Top, boomerang 2, and mirror master should be able to handle him. Piper blows off the rest of their heads.

#13 Posted by oceanmaster21 (8187 posts) - - Show Bio

Rogues but it would be an interesting battle

#14 Posted by ZhuRong (3659 posts) - - Show Bio

Morals off and bloodlusted? It would be pretty scary to be around Raven under those conditions

#15 Posted by Outside_85 (9212 posts) - - Show Bio

Titans

#16 Posted by dondave (37991 posts) - - Show Bio
#17 Posted by Dredeuced (5577 posts) - - Show Bio

Without a couple seconds prep the only person here that Bart couldn't blitz and kill before they could react is Top. Cold wouldn't have the time to set up his field and the Mirror Masters couldn't slip off to the mirror dimension before Flash kills them.

I'm not even sure Top could handle Bart as The Flash bloodlusted. Bart was able to school Zoom twice (as bad of writing as it may be, we don't have a lot more to go off when it comes to Bart as The Flash). He could legit make some speed clones (a Bart specific ability) to kill everyone else while he fights off Roscoe, for instance. At that point Top's just outmatched. Hell, Bart could swipe Cold's Gun and kill Top with it, that's worked pretty nicely for Snart before.

#18 Edited by Outside_85 (9212 posts) - - Show Bio
#19 Posted by comic_book_fan (5680 posts) - - Show Bio

titans.

#20 Posted by Dredeuced (5577 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Except it's most likely Wally :)

It's kind of hard to tell. When Bennett was doing Teen Titans he was mostly working with Bart, for instance. Either way I think the point stands, bloodlusted Wally could disarm/kill most of the rogues before Top engages him and Top was done in rather handily by a Cold Gun (which Wally is very aware of).

#21 Posted by Outside_85 (9212 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: True. I am also mainly basing it on that this group is the core of the New Teen Titans (+Roy) which later reformed under the Titans banner. Puls Bart was never the Flash when he was a member of any team of Titans (think actually the only time he appeared as the Flash in the book was to throw down with Titans East, where he also mentioned he had no wish to rejoin).

But I agree. Barry, Wally and Bart alone causes the Rogues enough trouble despite the difference in numbers. How are they going to cope with possibly the most powerful of them with his friends?

#22 Edited by Dredeuced (5577 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85 said:

@dredeuced: True. I am also mainly basing it on that this group is the core of the New Teen Titans (+Roy) which later reformed under the Titans banner. Puls Bart was never the Flash when he was a member of any team of Titans (think actually the only time he appeared as the Flash in the book was to throw down with Titans East, where he also mentioned he had no wish to rejoin).

But I agree. Barry, Wally and Bart alone causes the Rogues enough trouble despite the difference in numbers. How are they going to cope with possibly the most powerful of them with his friends?

The Titans need Wally/Bart to disable the Rogues first. There's no way they beat, say, Pied Piper if he's bloodlusted morals off and actually gets a chance to use his abilities. The dude's a planet buster with the ALE. Most of the Titans die if he gets off a couple of notes from his flute. But I think the Titans are aware of that (Donna Troy was around when Piper blew up Apokolips, iirc) and, generally speaking, Wally knows how dangerous Piper is with his flute -- and Bart would have clones so he doesn't have to pick specific ones. The most important people for Wally/Bart to disarm before Top interrupts him are Piper, Cold, and the Mirror Masters. Everyone else, even Madron, should be easy pickings for this Titans team while Wally/Bart handles Roscoe.

#23 Posted by TheTrueBarryAllen (5312 posts) - - Show Bio

Rogues win - the only reason they've ever not killed Flash right off was due to the fact that they dislike killing heroes because they don't want to have to deal with the rest of the Justice League.

Their morals may be shady - but it prevent's them from killing Flash right out in the comics - take em away & even the bloodlusted Titans are gonna have some issues.

#24 Posted by Dredeuced (5577 posts) - - Show Bio

Rogues win - the only reason they've ever not killed Flash right off was due to the fact that they dislike killing heroes because they don't want to have to deal with the rest of the Justice League.

Their morals may be shady - but it prevent's them from killing Flash right out in the comics - take em away & even the bloodlusted Titans are gonna have some issues.

The only reason the Flash hasn't killed the Rogues literally hundreds of separate times is he's a hero defined by his morals, which is not the case here.

They only ever get the opportunity to take out The Flash with massive prep and The Flash holding back. In a random encounter when it comes down to reaction time, Flash is quite capable of blitzing most the people here before Top can work his spinning psionic abilities to make Flash woozy.

#25 Posted by TheTrueBarryAllen (5312 posts) - - Show Bio

@thetruebarryallen said:

Rogues win - the only reason they've ever not killed Flash right off was due to the fact that they dislike killing heroes because they don't want to have to deal with the rest of the Justice League.

Their morals may be shady - but it prevent's them from killing Flash right out in the comics - take em away & even the bloodlusted Titans are gonna have some issues.

The only reason the Flash hasn't killed the Rogues literally hundreds of separate times is he's a hero defined by his morals, which is not the case here.

They only ever get the opportunity to take out The Flash with massive prep and The Flash holding back. In a random encounter when it comes down to reaction time, Flash is quite capable of blitzing most the people here before Top can work his spinning psionic abilities to make Flash woozy.

The Rogues don't need massive prep to bring down Flash - where are you getting that idea?

#26 Posted by DarkRaiden (7521 posts) - - Show Bio

Titans stomp. Bart+Raven = everyone's dead. Add in Starfire and it gets worse.

#27 Edited by Dredeuced (5577 posts) - - Show Bio

@thetruebarryallen said:

@dredeuced said:

@thetruebarryallen said:

Rogues win - the only reason they've ever not killed Flash right off was due to the fact that they dislike killing heroes because they don't want to have to deal with the rest of the Justice League.

Their morals may be shady - but it prevent's them from killing Flash right out in the comics - take em away & even the bloodlusted Titans are gonna have some issues.

The only reason the Flash hasn't killed the Rogues literally hundreds of separate times is he's a hero defined by his morals, which is not the case here.

They only ever get the opportunity to take out The Flash with massive prep and The Flash holding back. In a random encounter when it comes down to reaction time, Flash is quite capable of blitzing most the people here before Top can work his spinning psionic abilities to make Flash woozy.

The Rogues don't need massive prep to bring down Flash - where are you getting that idea?

Without a couple of seconds to plan ahead, what are The Rogues going to do? Cold's field isn't automatically on, he sets it up when he goes to do a heist so it's already on when Flash gets there -- that's not the case here, as it's a random encounter. Same with Mirror Master -- he needs to already have been set up in his mirror verse or this happens:

(My favorite part about this interaction is how McCulloch's actually kind of upset that he might've just killed Linda because he realizes that if he actually DOES piss Flash off things get very bad very quickly for him. Ever seen a more casual conversation between a hero and his villain who's seconds away from killing the Hero's wife love interest? One of the more amusing sidenotes about Flash and his Rogues is how oddly friendly they are).

When he messed up on figuring out when Flash would get there he is disarmed incredibly easily, as he wasn't just already in the mirror verse. This is the same for every Rogue except Top, who himself can't actually keep up with The Flash without using his vertigo inducing ability(Flash has decked him pretty easily without him being able to dodge, though since Wally isn't a murderer he didn't try to kill him). If Cold doesn't have his Cold Field up then his gun gets snatched from his hand rather easily and, well:

I needn't mention how Wally knows how the Cold Gun works seeing as he's not only used it before, he's built one entirely through trial and error and he knows how useful it is vs Roscoe.

There's a reason why The Rogues have to work as a team just to deal with Flash and they usually come to a heist with a plan set in motion, and they still nearly always lose.

Flash could've killed The Rogues hundreds of times over, far more often than The Rogues could've killed Flash. It's not like these dudes have actual lightspeed reactions, they just have gear and prep on their side in most encounters and The Flash is, well, a good guy.

#28 Edited by TheTrueBarryAllen (5312 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Considering the Rogues are villains & generally always "lose" in the end due to the hero having to win - sure, their heists get stopped; however, they don't need tons of time to prep to set things up.

Mirror Master

You showed some scans of Mirror Master already being in the Mirror World - but that's not exactly how that battle began.

Mirror Master was in the real world & was creating duplicates faster than Flash could run - enough to populate an entire city essentially. Flash ended up falling into a trap - yes it was prepped - and ended up the the Mirror World. The point of this is to show that Mirror Master doesn't need tons of prep time to duplicate himself & send the real one into the Mirror World.

Especially when his costume creates illusions via subliminal lights - as seen in the scans below:

The illusions should throw off the Titans long enough for Mirror Master to duplicate himself & bring himself & a handful of other Rogues to the Mirror Verse.

If we're going to argue that Flash would get to MM and the Illusions would have no effect on him - for whatever reason they wouldn't - then he does have Mirror Lenses built into the cowl of his costume.

He used them to completely trick the JSA & escape without them realizing that the real Mirror Master was gone.

MM doesn't even have to move & he can bring himself to the Mirror World - thus ensuring him safety from the attacks of any of the Titans, he'd be able to wreck house especially since he's morals off & bloodlusted.

Captain Cold & the Cold Field

The Cold Field doesn't take hours to set up or prep - all he has to do is pull the trigger on his gun.

Given that the Illusions from Mirror Master would mess with the Titans I think that he has more than enough time to activate the field.

Cold didn't have to prep his field - he just fired the wide beam of Absolute Zero thus activating it - pretty quick if you'd ask me.

From the looks of the picture used I think the Rogues get both Scudder & McCullough - since they've got two Mirror Masters, two Tricksters, and two Captain Boomerang's - at least I'd assume that.

#29 Edited by Dredeuced (5577 posts) - - Show Bio

@thetruebarryallen: Why do you think Cold can pull the trigger on his gun before he gets blitzed? It takes him a lot longer than a nanosecond to pull his trigger, don't you think? The same for Mirror Master setting his illusions. They have to have time to do these things. These things require thought and action that they can't do before they're disarmed. The point of my mirror master scan was that, when he miscalculated Flash's clearing of his traps, he was incredibly easily disarmed when confronted with a Flash who could blitz him before he could use his tech.

Mirror Master does not have the time to set up his illusions in this fight. His gun's disabled before he ever activates any of his tricks that usually cause Flash trouble. I don't know why you think any of them are able to do anything before Flash blitzes them. You should be readily aware of how fast Flash is and that there's absolutely no way the Rogues could use any of their tech before he stops them. Cold's even admitted that he can't react to Flash without his Cold Field -- what makes you think he can pull the trigger?

If you think The rogues can pull their triggers in less than a picosecond then my conclusion is that you're wrong.

#30 Posted by FatherChaos (1196 posts) - - Show Bio

Nightwing solos.

#31 Posted by TheTrueBarryAllen (5312 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: You didn't look at the scans did you - Mirror Master doesn't need prep for his illusions - and you didn't counter the fact that he has mirrors in his cowl easily allowing himself to jump into the Mirror World right off the bat.

Mirror Master's COSTUME is what causes the illusions - he doesn't need to sit there for hours trying to prep things, he doesn't need to push any special buttons, it's how his costume is designed.

You're seriously under-handing the Rogues here - I get that Flash is fast, I love Flash, I know that Wally has the most absurd feats in all of Comic History - but that doesn't change the fact that Mirror Master's COSTUME will create the illusions like it did in the scans I showed earlier - not his gun, not a machine he prepped beforehand - his costume.

The Hypnotic Induction Code caused by the his costume would be enough to throw West off long enough for MM to escape into the Mirror World via the mirrors in his cowl.

He doesn't have to budge at all & he's gone.

#32 Edited by Outside_85 (9212 posts) - - Show Bio

There are a number of factors those supporting the Rogues might want to consider:

  • First of all, they normally deal with the Flash, on his own, and generally get foiled
  • They are, without exception, all guys of normal human strength and durability while four of the Titans are physically in the 'flipping tanks' department
  • The door swings both ways, morals off and bloodlust is also allowing the Titans to strike as hard as they like
  • The Titans have Jericho with them, and his first action will be to posses one of the Rogues and turn whatever weapon they have onto their fellows.
  • And they have Raven with them... who in this mood/setting is normally a team stomper on her own, like this:

#33 Posted by TDK_1997 (14902 posts) - - Show Bio

Rogues without much of a problem.

#34 Edited by Dredeuced (5577 posts) - - Show Bio

@thetruebarryallen said:

@dredeuced: You didn't look at the scans did you - Mirror Master doesn't need prep for his illusions - and you didn't counter the fact that he has mirrors in his cowl easily allowing himself to jump into the Mirror World right off the bat.

Mirror Master's COSTUME is what causes the illusions - he doesn't need to sit there for hours trying to prep things, he doesn't need to push any special buttons, it's how his costume is designed.

You're seriously under-handing the Rogues here - I get that Flash is fast, I love Flash, I know that Wally has the most absurd feats in all of Comic History - but that doesn't change the fact that Mirror Master's COSTUME will create the illusions like it did in the scans I showed earlier - not his gun, not a machine he prepped beforehand - his costume.

The Hypnotic Induction Code caused by the his costume would be enough to throw West off long enough for MM to escape into the Mirror World via the mirrors in his cowl.

He doesn't have to budge at all & he's gone.

He still has to consciously activate his gear, dude. Mirror Master doesn't have automatic Flash reacting tech in it. You even admitted those illusions were a feat of prep(caught Wally and his Wife in their home completely unprepared and Wally STILL bests him) which he doesn't have here. His tech won't work if Wally is bloodlusted and blitzing him -- his gear, like Cold's, isn't automatically on at the start of the fight. That's why he NEEDS atleast a second or so get ready for Flash, and even then he's been blitzed before. I was kind of going easy and saying Wally disarms him because I could just show Wally disarming him and McCulloch giving up in frustration about the situation, but this kind of ignores that Flash could just as easily give him a seizure or blow him up or punch his head off in a fraction of a picosecond.

You talk about how The rogues refuse to kill Flash because of their code and sense of self preservation but Wally can kill basically everyone here before they can process the thought to use their gear if he's going all out. The only person on The Rogues side with any form of real super speed is The Top and Wally's blitzed him before when Roscoe didn't get the drop on him with his psychic screwery.

#35 Edited by TheTrueBarryAllen (5312 posts) - - Show Bio

@thetruebarryallen said:

@dredeuced: You didn't look at the scans did you - Mirror Master doesn't need prep for his illusions - and you didn't counter the fact that he has mirrors in his cowl easily allowing himself to jump into the Mirror World right off the bat.

Mirror Master's COSTUME is what causes the illusions - he doesn't need to sit there for hours trying to prep things, he doesn't need to push any special buttons, it's how his costume is designed.

You're seriously under-handing the Rogues here - I get that Flash is fast, I love Flash, I know that Wally has the most absurd feats in all of Comic History - but that doesn't change the fact that Mirror Master's COSTUME will create the illusions like it did in the scans I showed earlier - not his gun, not a machine he prepped beforehand - his costume.

The Hypnotic Induction Code caused by the his costume would be enough to throw West off long enough for MM to escape into the Mirror World via the mirrors in his cowl.

He doesn't have to budge at all & he's gone.

He still has to consciously activate his gear, dude. Mirror Master doesn't have automatic Flash reacting tech in it. You even admitted those illusions were a feat of prep(caught Wally and his Wife in their home completely unprepared and Wally STILL bests him) which he doesn't have here. His tech won't work if Wally is bloodlusted and blitzing him -- his gear, like Cold's, isn't automatically on at the start of the fight. That's why he NEEDS atleast a second or so get ready for Flash, and even then he's been blitzed before. I was kind of going easy and saying Wally disarms him because I could just show Wally disarming him and McCulloch giving up in frustration about the situation, but this kind of ignores that Flash could just as easily give him a seizure or blow him up or punch his head off in a fraction of a picosecond.

You talk about how The rogues refuse to kill Flash because of their code and sense of self preservation but Wally can kill basically everyone here before they can process the thought to use their gear if he's going all out. The only person on The Rogues side with any form of real super speed is The Top and Wally's blitzed him before when Roscoe didn't get the drop on him with his psychic screwery.

You're putting words in my mouth & moving around the context of the words I did state.

  • The giant prism in the middle of the city was something that was prepped - he doesn't just have that at the start of this fight nor does he need it here.
  • Him making duplicates of himself does not require prep - he can push a button on his suit to make 1000's of duplicates with ease; however, this isn't the instance that I'm refferencing when I'm discussing the 'Illusions' either.

When Mirror Master was in the bank he was able to hypnotize everyone inside via his costume - he didn't have to prep anything, he didn't have to activate anything - the hypnotizing was cause due to the makeup of his costume.

I'm not claiming that the illusions & hypnotism caused by his armor [ with no prep required ] would be enough to stop Flash for good - but it would distract him & the rest of the Titans long enough for Mirror Master to jump into the Mirror World - as I've shown the guy has mirrors in his cowl.

Mirror Master didn't move - he didn't prep that - it's built into his costume & he'd easily be able to do that in time to escape into the Mirror World DUE TO THE FACT that Flash would be distracted by the hypnotism from his costume.

You also keep mentioning that Top can't blitz Wally w/o psychic screwery - I see no screwery in this blitz.

The entire fight shows Wally & Zatanna trying to take him down - Top fights off Zatanna's magic & uses his vertigo inducing powers on Wally. As he begins his "villain monologue" Zatanna freezes him in place - Wally has his time to recover, and then Top breaks free from the Ice then this happens.

Top then tears apart some portion of a brick wall - hits Wally with the projectiles - and then speeds off before Wally & Zatanna know what happens.

It's not like Top has to prep his vertigo powers either - it's pretty instantaneous.

#36 Edited by Dredeuced (5577 posts) - - Show Bio

@thetruebarryallen:

  • The giant prism in the middle of the city was something that was prepped - he doesn't just have that at the start of this fight nor does he need it here.
  • Him making duplicates of himself does not require prep - he can push a button on his suit to make 1000's of duplicates with ease; however, this isn't the instance that I'm refferencing when I'm discussing the 'Illusions' either.

What? How do you know he wasn't prepped for when he engaged The Flash in his own living room? That makes no sense, he went in with a clear plan, and a trap, and forced Flash to fall into it.

Yes, and I'm saying he can't push that button before he's dead. You can't be disagreeing with me on this one.

When Mirror Master was in the bank he was able to hypnotize everyone inside via his costume - he didn't have to prep anything, he didn't have to activate anything - the hypnotizing was cause due to the makeup of his costume.

This effect has either never been used or never affect Wally in any significant way. His hypnotizing has to do with him affecting light and hypnotizing people with it but, well, we both know how slow light is compared to Flash. It's not like the effect could keep up with him. And again, he does have to activate it. It's not on all the time or else the other Rogues around him would also be in a constant hypnotized daze.

I'm not claiming that the illusions & hypnotism caused by his armor [ with no prep required ] would be enough to stop Flash for good - but it would distract him & the rest of the Titans long enough for Mirror Master to jump into the Mirror World - as I've shown the guy has mirrors in his cowl.

And I'm saying you have no reason to think he could initiate these maneuvers before he's dead and would serve as no distraction. I know he has mirrors built into his suit and I don't know why you keep bringing it up when it has nothing to do with what I'm sying.

Mirror Master didn't move - he didn't prep that - it's built into his costume & he'd easily be able to do that in time to escape into the Mirror World DUE TO THE FACT that Flash would be distracted by the hypnotism from his costume.

How long do you think it takes for those little panels to slip down his mask? Certainly it takes longer than it would for Flash to cause the neurons in his brain to accelerate and cause him a seizure, or any number of ridiculous things Wally could do to disable him.

You also keep mentioning that Top can't blitz Wally w/o psychic screwery - I see no screwery in this blitz.

The entire fight shows Wally & Zatanna trying to take him down - Top fights off Zatanna's magic & uses his vertigo inducing powers on Wally. As he begins his "villain monologue" Zatanna freezes him in place - Wally has his time to recover, and then Top breaks free from the Ice then this happens.

Top then tears apart some portion of a brick wall - hits Wally with the projectiles - and then speeds off before Wally & Zatanna know what happens.

It's not like Top has to prep his vertigo powers either - it's pretty instantaneous.

This is Top avoiding Wally when Wally isn't trying to blitz him or kill him, though. Wally's already blitzed Top during Rogue War before he had to go deal with the other Rogues. Do you think if Wally was trying to kill Roscoe, he'd survive this?

Top does not have Wally's high end reaction time. His best feats of super speed are just actually fighting Wally. His vertigo power is neither instant or automatic, he has to, like most powers, consciously use them on someone. He does not survive this punch if Wally's trying to kill him, I think you'd agree with that, no? While Top's consciousness would still live because he's a malevolent psychic entity, it would be over for this fight (not to mention Raven herself can counter malevolent psychic entities with the best of them if that card gets played, anyhow).

Top has super speed but he is not as fast as Wally and, hell, couldn't avoid Cold popping a cold beam in his face. Wally could strip McCulloch naked before he used any of his tech (which would probably be the smartest thing as his and Scudder's gear would be the most bothersome to defeat). He could plan everything he wants to do out in the first nanosecond of the fight like he's done before if you remove all PIS/CIS.

#37 Posted by TheTrueBarryAllen (5312 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Well - I'll agree to disagree with you on this one. I've got finals to be studying for and this argument is just devolving to the same argument in any Wally West thread w/ Blitz Blitz Blitz.

There is nothing to suggest the hypnotism won't work on Wally - nothing at all.

If we're removing PIS/CIS then I easily see this going to the Rogues - as PIS/CIS is generally the reason why they lose.

#38 Posted by Dredeuced (5577 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Well - I'll agree to disagree with you on this one. I've got finals to be studying for and this argument is just devolving to the same argument in any Wally West thread w/ Blitz Blitz Blitz.

There is nothing to suggest the hypnotism won't work on Wally - nothing at all.

If we're removing PIS/CIS then I easily see this going to the Rogues - as PIS/CIS is generally the reason why they lose.

His hypnotism isn't something he has on at all times (why isn't Wildcat hypnotized?) and there's no reason to expect something that works at the speed of light by controlling light to affect someone who's as FTL as bloodlusted Wally. There's just absolutely no indication that it'd be relevant to this fight.

Morals are the only reason all of The Rogues aren't dead every single time they fight The Flash, too, for whatever that's worth.

#39 Posted by TheTrueBarryAllen (5312 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Top & MM have hypnotism - Top has been shown to affect Wally just fine.

Morales aren't the only thing keeping the Rogues alive - they're literally all designed to bring Flash down, it's what their powers/tech is made for.

I respect Wally but he's incredibly overrated here on the Vine.

#40 Edited by Dredeuced (5577 posts) - - Show Bio

@thetruebarryallen said:

@dredeuced: Top & MM have hypnotism - Top has been shown to affect Wally just fine.

Morales aren't the only thing keeping the Rogues alive - they're literally all designed to bring Flash down, it's what their powers/tech is made for.

I respect Wally but he's incredibly overrated here on the Vine.

Wally has blitzed every single rogue at some point in their history. The entire reason they team up is that they CAN'T deal with The Flash 1 on 1 and admit to it. They have had opportunities where their team ups and prep would have allowed them to kill Wally or Barry if they had been willing to do it, but there's just as many times, if not more, where the reverse is true -- combine that with the fact that the Flashes are never as brutal or even willing to harm as The Rogues and it's kind of lopsided.

And MM's hypnotism, which you are saying is what slows Wally down, has never been shown to be automatically on and has never been shown to work on a Flash, has it? You've got the showing of him disabling a bank's worth of people but there's hundreds of other showings with McCulloch where the hypnotism isn't on, so it's clearly an on off switch deal, don't you think?

I see no reason why Wally can't blitz Scudder and McCulloch and kill them off the bat here. I see no reason why he can't blitz Roscoe, to be honest, considering he's done it before and has the offensive output to kill Roscoe if his morals are off. If Wally were stopping to banter with Roscoe and let him use his spinning powers on him then Wally is quite susceptible, but that doesn't seem like the scenario.

I'm not in the business of lowballing The Rogues -- I've had to defend them more times than I can remember on this forum because everyone thinks they're a bunch of goofy street levelers, but a no prep, random encounter vs a bloodlusted speedster is not the situation you put them in to give them a chance at winning. Give them a couple of seconds to set up and they can make it impossible for Wally to beat them, but without that they don't get the chance to think and a picosecond later and they should all be very dead.

I've also never questioned your respect for Wally and I don't know why you bring it up. I just don't know why you think any of them can activate their gear in a picosecond, or why you think any of their gear is automatically on/activates fast enough to stop Wally.

#41 Posted by Outside_85 (9212 posts) - - Show Bio
@tdk_1997 said:

Rogues without much of a problem.

Curious to know why and how?

#42 Edited by TheTrueBarryAllen (5312 posts) - - Show Bio

@thetruebarryallen said:

@dredeuced: Top & MM have hypnotism - Top has been shown to affect Wally just fine.

Morales aren't the only thing keeping the Rogues alive - they're literally all designed to bring Flash down, it's what their powers/tech is made for.

I respect Wally but he's incredibly overrated here on the Vine.

Wally has blitzed every single rogue at some point in their history. The entire reason they team up is that they CAN'T deal with The Flash 1 on 1 and admit to it. They have had opportunities where their team ups and prep would have allowed them to kill Wally or Barry if they had been willing to do it, but there's just as many times, if not more, where the reverse is true -- combine that with the fact that the Flashes are never as brutal or even willing to harm as The Rogues and it's kind of lopsided.

And MM's hypnotism, which you are saying is what slows Wally down, has never been shown to be automatically on and has never been shown to work on a Flash, has it? You've got the showing of him disabling a bank's worth of people but there's hundreds of other showings with McCulloch where the hypnotism isn't on, so it's clearly an on off switch deal, don't you think?

I see no reason why Wally can't blitz Scudder and McCulloch and kill them off the bat here. I see no reason why he can't blitz Roscoe, to be honest, considering he's done it before and has the offensive output to kill Roscoe if his morals are off. If Wally were stopping to banter with Roscoe and let him use his spinning powers on him then Wally is quite susceptible, but that doesn't seem like the scenario.

Wally has blitzed the Rogues before - the Rogues have tagged Wally before.

The Rogues team up because they enjoy the sense of family & togetherness - plus they stand a better chance in general when against their foes as a group instead of as single units. It'd be easier to job a bank if you've got a guy who can travel through reflections than it would be if you're just a man with a Cold Gun, right?

The Rogues don't kill the Flashes because they don't kill capes - it's one of their rules. They're not in it for the killing, they're in it for the cash. If they kill Flash then they'll have to deal with the rest of the heroes in the world & they don't want to bother with that.

McCullough has limited appearances - as do a good majority of the Rogues.

Considering the playing field is littered with reflective surfaces it's possible that Scudder & McCullough could escape into the Mirror World or create their illusions before they get tagged, it really depends on starting positions which weren't stated.

#43 Edited by Dredeuced (5577 posts) - - Show Bio

@thetruebarryallen: Right, aside from the fact where Cold has specifically said The Rogues can't beat The Flash unless they team up. The Rogues have tagged The Flash -- this is true! Do I need to use Captain Cold's own words here?

Cold's own words. If Cold hadn't taken the precaution of setting up his cold field he knows Flash can not only disarm him, but dismantle his cold gun before he could think about firing the gun. This applies to Mirror Master, as well, as I already showed you. These guys HAVE to take precautions, they have to have something set up so The Flash can't blitz them. In Scudder or McCulloch's case, they're usually already in the mirror verse, with illusions and hardlight constructs set up, by the time Flash shows up or they have Cold and the rest of The Rogues helping out with their own variations of prep. They just don't get the chance to use any of their gear in this scenario. Flash can literally take apart their gear, as he's done before, before they can think.

And yes, I know The Rogues don't kill The Flash because of their code. The Flashes also aren't in the business of killing Rogues. This is an irrelevant thing to bring up because it applies to both normally and doesn't apply to this situation. I know who the Rogues are. I've read practically every showing of theirs besides some odd Suicide Squad showings that had Rogues on them and I don't need education on their abilities or their morals. Both are irrelevant in this fight against a bloodlusted speedster.

#44 Posted by TheTrueBarryAllen (5312 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Like I said - agree to disagree in this battle.

Side note: Nowhere in that scan you posted does Cold state that he needs the other Rogues to beat Flash.

Side Side note: I'm not questioning your knowledge on the Rogues - I generally explain everything I can so that other users who read these debates & discussions can take something from it & learn.

#45 Posted by XiiX (8473 posts) - - Show Bio

The Flash is The Titan's saving grace.Otherwise, The Rogues would take it.

#46 Edited by Dredeuced (5577 posts) - - Show Bio

@thetruebarryallen said:

@dredeuced: Like I said - agree to disagree in this battle.

Side note: Nowhere in that scan you posted does Cold state that he needs the other Rogues to beat Flash.

Side Side note: I'm not questioning your knowledge on the Rogues - I generally explain everything I can so that other users who read these debates & discussions can take something from it & learn.

I was countering the "All Cold needs to do is pull a trigger," and "The Rogues have tagged Wally." statements with that scan. I suppose I could go dig up cold talking about how they don't stand a chance 1 on 1 vs The Flash if you really want, I figured you'd already be familiar with it as he's said it multiple times.

On the second side note, fair enough, but it did feel a bit patronizing.

You can agree to disagree I just have no idea where you're forming your conclusion from. Like I said, you give the Rogues a couple of seconds to just initiate their gear and this battle becomes a big mess with me having to bring up stuff like Raven countering Mirror Master and Starfire having to deal with Cold (it becomes a lot more interesting, really) etc etc, but making it a random encounter feels like spite to me.

#47 Posted by Outside_85 (9212 posts) - - Show Bio
#48 Posted by highaccuser (7026 posts) - - Show Bio

@xiix: how?

Turning them into glass, putting them in absolute zero, making them vomit out their insides, putting tornados in them, blowing off their heads, blitzing them, etc.

#49 Edited by XiiX (8473 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: Yeah, basically this. It's possible The Top could take out a number of them on his own(Yes, The Top), or potentially control them. The guys gets REALLY underestimated/easily discounted.

It's irrelevant, but he basically told one of Zatanna's spells to fuk off.

And if Piper were given the window to start playing, he'd most likely solo.

#50 Posted by Outside_85 (9212 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85 said:

@xiix: how?

Turning them into glass, putting them in absolute zero, making them vomit out their insides, putting tornados in them, blowing off their heads, blitzing them, etc.

Assuming the Titans are so stupid to just stand still and take it.

This is a basic measure of power, and the Titans simply have far more than the Rogues.