The Rogues vs Marvel Cosmic Villains

You're right - I don't know why I'm continuing this either.

I'm out - Kadabra solo's - it's been proven, respect the Rogues, Kony2012.

@thetruebarryallen: You've done well. If necessary, dredeuced will completely shut down Darkraiden if it's called for :).

I just showed it. And Kid Flash has moved FTL, I just showed it. Kadabra is superior to Flash sure. But beating/tagging Flash doesn't make you lightspeed. Contrary to popular belief, flash rarely goes near top speeds unless he has to.

Unless Grodd is also lightspeed as is anyone who fights Surfer constantly and tags Gladiator and Sentry etc. etc.

As for not showing how they win....you haven't shown any counter to telepathy or Ronan's weapon or Super Skrull or anyone really. You just keep pretending that you have. All you've said is how the Rogue's can solos supposedly. Not how they can defend.

That's a good point. I'm far too good to try to debate against. Unless you have scans and logic backing you, you can't even tie nonetheless win so yeah...probably should just stop since it's me.

Alright - you're new here, so I'll go easy on you.

1. If you're not going to debate - then why comment.

Seriously - if you're just going to come in here and throw down an argument with pure statement & no actual display then why bother entering the battle forums in the first place.

Explain why the Rogues couldn't do what I've explained they can [ and have proven ] they could do.

The majority of users in this thread have commented that the Rouges would win - there's generally a reasoning for such a majority vote, because they agree that the Rouges have a clear victory here.

2. Don't play the Fanboy Card

Sure - my username is TheTrueBarryAllen - so why would I care about the Rogues, I don't see there name anywhere in my name.

I've admitted on several occassions that the Rouges would lose - heck if this lineup didn't have Mirror Master or Abra Kadabra they'd be screwed with absolutely no chance at a victory, but that's not the case now is it?

3. Don't tell me to search for Feats

If you're going to read through a debate - and one user has showed what there characters can perform on a regular basis, then it's common courtesy to provide a counter argument also displaying what your chosen side can do.

Don't tell me to not use or look at Kadabra's feats and then to search down feats for these other characters without any sort of specifics, that's just silly.

Why wouldn't I use Abra Kadabra's feats & accomplishments in combat when this is a fight involving Abra Kadabra... in combat...?

4. Wally West

I'm glad you like Wally West as a character and have appreciated his run as Flash, if that was an attempt to insult me then you should've told me that Bart Allen was the best Flash.

If I recall I've beaten you in both the tournaments I've faced you in - you're just being silly now, DR.

;D

@darkraiden: Like you have done other than out of context scans, just like every other post you make to anyone having the patience to deal with you.

What if I told you that winning in tournaments ws really losing in debates *morpheus glasses* \0--\0

Huh? I honestly l don't know what you're trying to say.

@darkraiden: Alright buddy - you keep thinking that.

Clearly your arguments are far superior, your logic is flawless, and every user should bow down to the greatness that is Darkraiden, for even though he lost in two debates [ in tournaments - which are still debates ] against me I must admit that he is more superior than myself and I can only hope to be on his level of greatness before my life ends.

There - my completely honest and 0% sarcastic admission, enjoy it.

@darkraiden: Cool.Now go away please

I am not saying I agree with darkraiden but I think his point is that deathstorke should never be able to tag kid flash and he has. I'm not a kid flash expert but IIRC wasn't he fast enough to hurt superboy prime? Deathstorke should never touch him is what DarkRaiden is saying and if my understanding is correct he's not necessarily wrong.

I haven't read much flash but a lot of people like to bring up how captain cold and heatwave have reacted to flash before. If thats the case than something doesn't add up.

I won't say abracadabra doesn't solo since he is a reality warper I can except that he may truly be superior to the flash and he is probably fast enough to react to flash if he has been doing it consistently. I don't think its impossible to believe his technology gives him superhuman speed if it gives him reality warping powers. I can only assume its CIS on Wallys part and for the most part prep on the rogues part.

Again though I agree that calling abracadabras entire history PIS is crazy and the rogues do win in a stomp due to him. I just feel darkraidens point was being misunderstood.

@jashro44: No I get his point - character's like Deathstroke & Grodd honestly shouldn't be able to tag Flash.

Grodd truly only does because he's got some incredible damage soak and his TP can mess with Flash - in most physical brawls Grodd loses terribly to Flash.

I've got an entire section on Abra Kadabra in my Rouges Respect thread - it's unfinished but I went through every Silver & Modern age comic to acquire feats - he's sent Barry Allen to the moon in the Silver Age & used nanites that were capable of slowing Flash down to a limited speed - you've also seen the scans in this thread of him messing with Black Holes, turning Superman into a puppet, and Jay Garrick into a turtle.

Heck - I'd even admit that without Kadabra on the lineup that the Rogues wouldn't be able to beat the Marvel Cosmics - he's just the tipping scale and calling his entire character 'PIS' is just absurb.

Glad to see your input here though, Jash. You've generally got a pretty balanced outlook on things.

@thetruebarryallen: Fair enough. I may have just been ranting about some of the rogues in general admittedly (captain cold, heatwave, captain boomerang, etc). Some of the rogues do seem pretty powerful though.

@jashro44: It's not uncommon to rant about em - If I had to place them on Tiers I'd look like this

High Tier Rogues

• Abra Kadabra
• Mirror Master
• Doctor Alchemy
• Pied Piper
• Top

Mid Tier Rogues

• Captain Cold
• Weather Wizard
• Owen Mercer
• Golden Glider [ Pre 52 ]

Low Tier Rogues

• Captain Boomerang
• Trickster
• Heatwave

@thetruebarryallen: And then the Zooms above the top tier :P

Zoom = OMGWTF Tier.

@thetruebarryallen: I'd probably promote The Top to high tier.

A speedster (psuedo) telepath makes for a rarely dangerous combination that even the likes of his fellow Rogues only neutralized by catching him unawares.

@xiix: True - I get hesistant about where to place him from time to time because I always remember his low showing against Captain Cold but considering I'm using him in a HT Tournament I suppose I'd promote him haha.

@thetruebarryallen: Hunter all day!

Ahaha, the Kree are not thousands of years ahead of Doom and Richards. Heck, they still need freaking Captain America to give them tactical advice as recently as a few months ago(well I guess he gave the Shi'ar the advice but whatevs the Kree got wooped too). The entire joke is that every space faring civilization calls Marvel Earth a backwater planet immediately before being saved by their abilities and intelligence.

People know Abra Kadabra can conjure up black holes, right?

Has he conjured up a black hole? I posted the instance of him removing Chunk's black hole and disabling it, though I feel it was partially ignored.

And the scan with Slade blowing off Kid Flash's kneecaps is a showing where Bart was powerless, in case anyone needed a reminder that DarkRaiden does not read comics.

Your posting of the Black Hole got ignored pretty hard - apparently the Marvel team wins because they're physically stronger and can manipulate energy to a certain degree

*Shrugs*

People, man. People.

@thetruebarryallen: I can understand that. But I don't really hold it against him, because he was caught off guard and hit by arguably the most formidable cryogenic tech in the DCU.

As most battles go, he's readily aware of who he's fighting and where they are. From there, good luck reacting to, let alone hitting him before he hits them several times or just fuks up their mind.

He's basically got everything going for him except physical durability(and I emphasis "physical", because he did after all resist a spell from Zatanna, the likes of which oneshotted enemies like Lobo and Despero, when he was prepared for it).

DR is taking things out of context again, not surprised...

Kadabra is too much.

Yep...ignore the rest of the times he tagged Flash and Kid Flash. Plus he's kneecapped a full powered Kid Flash I just couldn't find it. It represented the point well enough.

P.S. to TBBA and others, blackholes don't do much to the likes of Ronan.

@thetruebarryallen: haha I couldn't tell you Bart Allen was the best flash bc that would be insulting to both of us. I was just attempting to lighten the mood and tease you about the Wally west comment btw lol

You've convinced me of the rogues victory

yea the Cosmic Team still wins

How - they don't. Cosmic Team gets stomped.

@thetruebarryallen: because the rogues can't beat one man much less 6 cosmic beings. Barry disbanded them once, they came back and Wally has been beating their *** since. They are really cool, powerful, they just are not that good. They are the best at failing to take down one man.... OKAYYY, That was a low blow but seriously they fail more then Deadpool as a supporting cast in comic books.

That was perhaps the worst argument for the Marvel Cosmics I've read in my entire life - so because the Rogues lose to Wally West & Barry Allen [ two characters that reign as champions here on the Battle Forums might I add ] due to plot purposes they're all weak and horrible and their powers have absolutely no weight behind them.

Yeah - I'm not even going to entertain this anymore - you're not even trying here.

@thetruebarryallen: That wasn't an argument for Marvel its fact. THEY ARE A HORRIBLE TEAM! THEY ARE LITERAL LOSERS!

Must be hungry - sitting under a bridge all day by your lonesome must get pretty boring.

@thetruebarryallen: bro.....rouges lose this one. Handily. Let it go.....

No - I'm not going to let it go.

There have been no actual argument's made for the Marvel Cosmics - people just look at the fact that their cosmic tier character and think the Rogues are outmatched.

Already within this thread I've convinced one person who was originally voting for the Cosmics that the Rouges could win - so that's better than anyone else has done on the side of the Marvel Cosmic's team.

You want to try and prove to me why the Cosmics win - go for it. I respect your opinions here on the forums a solid majority of the time - so feel free to make an argument instead of trolling like DoDirty is.

The point of the Battle Forums is to create discussion and debate - and from the way this thread has gone the majority of people backing the Marvel Cosmics have little to no evidence that they could actually win the fight.

Heck - I'd even be willing to do a CAV against you with these same exact teams.

I love how no one is really debating for the cosmic team.

Lmao, I was mostly jus tryin ta get ya riled up.....muahahahaha.

But......I am interested in facing you in a CaV someday. Even using Rouges. Maybe.

@cosmicallyaware1: Look at you, trying to rile me up, blasphemy!

Anyways - maybe when we've both got more time we could arrange something - I'd love to use the Rouges in an actual debate like a CAV instead of just a random thread debate.

Bwahahahaha.......I got ya.....*sigh*....that was a good one lmfao. But yeah pal, we're long overdue for a nice intellectual dissertation between us, would be one for the record books. Just gotta free up some time. Soon. Btw....when I tag ya in matches, please vote!!!! :-)

And.....I'm willing to take on the Rouges!

@cosmicallyaware1: I always mean to but buy the time I'm able to read through em & give my opinion the match has usually ended.

I'm an incredibly slow voter - I'll try to be a bit quicker on the draw next time :)

To contribute to this list:

High tier

• Shade
• Savitar
• Rival
• Inertia
• Replicant
• Folded Man
• Grood

Mid tier

• Magenta
• Girder
• Tar Pit
• Turtle

Low tier

• Plunder
• Murmur
• Double Down
• Blacksmith
• Brother Grimm