The Rogues (Esquire) Vs. Legion Of Doom (IZZR)

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#1 Edited by IZZR (3947 posts) - 7 months, 18 days ago - Show Bio

The Rogues (Esquire)

Captain Cold
Captain Boomerang
Weather Wizard
Top
Pied Piper
Mirror Master





 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Vs.

 

Legion Of Doom


 
Lex Luthor
Bizarro
 Sinestro
Cheetah
 Gorilla Grodd
Shadow Thief






 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Rules

  • Random encounter
  • All pre 52 versions
  • Standard equipment
  • Both teams are aware of the others powers
  • No Bfr
  • Morals off
  • Bloodlusted
  • Start 1000ft apart

Location: Metropolis

#2 Posted by Rogues (10652 posts) - 7 months, 18 days ago - Show Bio

Abra Kadabra solos....

#3 Posted by xeon1cs (1471 posts) - 7 months, 18 days ago - Show Bio

:( Why does no one ever use Pied Piper. Man, you guys are jerks.

Anyway, Rogues should win pretty easily.

#4 Posted by Floopay (6007 posts) - 7 months, 18 days ago - Show Bio

@nickthedevil said:

Abra Kadabra solos....

@xeon1cs said:

:( Why does no one ever use Pied Piper. Man, you guys are jerks.

Anyway, Rogues should win pretty easily.

Shouldn't we, you know, wait for them to make their cases for their teams. I mean the point of these is to see who uses their team better...

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#5 Posted by Rogues (10652 posts) - 7 months, 17 days ago - Show Bio

LOL @ Floopay

#6 Posted by xeon1cs (1471 posts) - 7 months, 17 days ago - Show Bio

@Floopay said:

@nickthedevil said:

Abra Kadabra solos....

@xeon1cs said:

:( Why does no one ever use Pied Piper. Man, you guys are jerks.

Anyway, Rogues should win pretty easily.

Shouldn't we, you know, wait for them to make their cases for their teams. I mean the point of these is to see who uses their team better...

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

Does an extensive case really need to be made?

Rogues are vastly more powerful. Abra Kadabra is a time traveling, reality warping wizard. Weather Wizard puts electrical storms and tornadoes inside peoples bodies with morals off. Captain Cold turns them into ice statues.

Mirror Master, Top and Captain Boomerang don't even need to be there.

#7 Posted by Esquire (3331 posts) - 7 months, 17 days ago - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:

@Floopay said:

@nickthedevil said:

Abra Kadabra solos....

@xeon1cs said:

:( Why does no one ever use Pied Piper. Man, you guys are jerks.

Anyway, Rogues should win pretty easily.

Shouldn't we, you know, wait for them to make their cases for their teams. I mean the point of these is to see who uses their team better...

Does an extensive case really need to be made?

Rogues are vastly more powerful. Abra Kadabra is a time traveling, reality warping wizard. Weather Wizard puts electrical storms and tornadoes inside peoples bodies with morals off. Captain Cold turns them into ice statues.

Mirror Master, Top and Captain Boomerang don't even need to be there.

I actually wanted Pied Piper rather than Abra Kadabra. Time manipulation and reality warping make him too powerful here.

#8 Posted by OmegaDynasty (9161 posts) - 7 months, 17 days ago - Show Bio

Abra Kadabra makes it a win for his team. 
If he wasn't there...then I would say they need to take out Grodd..as he could easily attack their minds. They really have no protection against a telepath which I am aware of. 
Grundy is pretty much useless here IMO, just a super strong cannon fodder for the team...depending on which version (Sorry Grundy)  
Star Sapphire may pose a threat, although think Mirror Master could handle her.  
Cheetah speed has increased, thanks to Zoom..she was able to tag Flash. Although, the team is meant for taking down speedsters..so nothing new here besides the super strength. 
Bizzaro may be some trouble, although his lack of intelligence will probably be his down fall in this battle..unless Lex Luthor manages to help him out.

#9 Posted by Esquire (3331 posts) - 7 months, 17 days ago - Show Bio

@OmegaDynasty: Abra Kadabra isn't supposed to be here, he'll soon be replaced with Pied Piper as was originally intended but evidently miscommunicated.

Top is a telepath, and Owen should be able to Blitz Grodd. It wouldn't be the first time it's happened to him. Also, Mirror Master can turn him to glass/inside out before he can react, CC can flash-freeze him, while Piper stands a good chance of outdrawing his TP with the Anti-Life Equation. WW is really the only one without a good chance at taking a majority over Grodd, and if Top can stall his TP even for a second, WW can destroy the Gorilla.

#10 Posted by IZZR (3947 posts) - 7 months, 17 days ago - Show Bio
@Esquire said:

@IZZR @xeon1cs said:

@Floopay said:

@nickthedevil said:

Abra Kadabra solos....

@xeon1cs said:

:( Why does no one ever use Pied Piper. Man, you guys are jerks.

Anyway, Rogues should win pretty easily.

Shouldn't we, you know, wait for them to make their cases for their teams. I mean the point of these is to see who uses their team better...

Does an extensive case really need to be made?

Rogues are vastly more powerful. Abra Kadabra is a time traveling, reality warping wizard. Weather Wizard puts electrical storms and tornadoes inside peoples bodies with morals off. Captain Cold turns them into ice statues.

Mirror Master, Top and Captain Boomerang don't even need to be there.

I actually wanted Pied Piper rather than Abra Kadabra. Time manipulation and reality warping make him too powerful here.

I just got home from work, gonna quickly go get a trim and come back and show you Abra aint sh*t lol go read Salvation Run. See you in a bit Equire :)
#11 Posted by Esquire (3331 posts) - 7 months, 17 days ago - Show Bio

@IZZR said:

@Esquire said:

I actually wanted Pied Piper rather than Abra Kadabra. Time manipulation and reality warping make him too powerful here.

I just got home from work, gonna quickly go get a trim and come back and show you Abra aint sh*t lol go read Salvation Run. See you in a bit Equire :)

I don't want to debate with Abra, though, regardless of his powerlevel or effectiveness here. I wanted Pied Piper, since I like him more and know him better as a character. So if you would edit Piper into OP instead of Abra, I would be obliged. Thanks.

#12 Posted by Rogues (10652 posts) - 7 months, 17 days ago - Show Bio

I hope you referred to salvation Run as a joke. Because the Rogues were so nerfed in that for the sake of the plot. Captain Cold only shot Ice, mirror master was a wimp. Had that been written right, the Rogues wouldn't have even been in that story line. And if they were, cold would have One-shotted Joker when clown insulted him.

#13 Posted by Esquire (3331 posts) - 7 months, 17 days ago - Show Bio

@IZZR

Okay, get this things started. First off, let's see what Captain Boomerang can do. This isn't the original Captain Boomerang, this is his son, Owen Mercer. In addition to being hyperaccurate with thrown weapons, he has short bursts of speed, well into the supersonic.

He throws boomerangs at supersonic speeds, and has tagged the Flash and a Morals-off Jay Garrick clone.

He has a selection of trick boomerangs which only add to his lethality. He has some crazy accuracy feats including Bullseye-level ricochets. He's also skilled with thrown weapons besides Boomerangs, as even with things like escrima sticks he's still dominant and powerful enough to throw them through robots. Note: the last three scans take place just after he had been captured and tortured, but he was still able to do this:

He has the accuracy to tag anyone on your team, and he has the power and weaponry to kill anyone without substantial superhuman durability. He can blitz Grodd without issue and headshot Luthor, and he can tag Jay-clone and Wally, so he can kill Cheetah. He can take out Grundy and Bizarro's eyes and try for vulnerable points, but they're both durable enough to tank most of his attacks. Star Sapphire, though, is beatable, unless you can show me some pretty ridiculous reflex feats.

Boomerang can match up very favorable with at least half of your team, and he's easily my weakest character. Next up: Weather Wizard!

#14 Posted by IZZR (3947 posts) - 7 months, 15 days ago - Show Bio
#15 Posted by Esquire (3331 posts) - 7 months, 12 days ago - Show Bio

@IZZR:

The Weather Wizard!

Weather Wizard can control atmospheric conditions and other aspects of the weather, and summon things like lightning, heat, gales of wind, freezing temeratures, and tornadoes to devastating effect. He's tagged the Flash, created tornadoes more powerful than Wally could counter, and one-shotted another weather manipulator with lightning.

He's a versatile and powerful threat, and his flight is also an advantage against many foes. His potent destructive capabilities are enough to take down many of your team, but his most lethal attack is yet to come:

He can create tornadoes inside of closed enviroments, so he can bypass most people's durability. Bizarro may be able to tank it, but it would still be uncomfortable to say the least. Even Sinestro's shields won't stop it, since he can just create a tornado inside of them. WW can kill Lex, Grodd, Cheetah, and Shadow Thief through lightning and tornadoes, and he can kill Sinestro with a stomach tornado. The only person who can stand up to him is Bizarro, and he can still make things very unpleasant for the Backwards Superman.

#16 Posted by IZZR (3947 posts) - 7 months, 12 days ago - Show Bio
@Esquire
  
Lex Luthor

Lex Luthor Warsuit


Lex Luthor is probably the greatest mind in the DCU, along with that he is fearless and has comprehensive knowledge on everyone who is anyone in the DCU including the Rogues and has often led teams containing Rogue members and i wouldn't put it past Lex to be able to single handedly kill them all by himself. His battlesuit allows him to be able to engage the likes of Superman in H2H combat and his mind allows him to analyse situations instantly and deduce the solution on the spot, when fighting hero's he rarely takes it seriously but the same cannot be said about villains as he is not afraid to put them out their misery for crossing him. His willpower is second to none and despite Brainiac having months to monitor Luthor with nanites in his system he still was unable to save himself from Luthor ending his life.
 

Lex Luthor Vs. Brainiac (Action Comics #899)

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Lex one shotting the Teen Titans and it shows how his battlesuit effortlessly tanks hits from the Titans.
#17 Posted by Floopay (6007 posts) - 7 months, 12 days ago - Show Bio

@IZZR:

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#18 Posted by IZZR (3947 posts) - 7 months, 12 days ago - Show Bio
@Esquire
 
Bizarro
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Bizarro Vs. Superman (Action Comics #855)

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Bizarro is the most versatile fighter on my team, Esquire can make the claim that his stupidity can be his downfall but at the same time with someone like Lex on his team to guide him and Gorilla Grodd to mentally help him he can unleash his full fury on the Rogues which without prep will be left for dead due to his speed. Yes i realise they are used to fighting with Flash but very often he only needs one punch to K.O. them so imagine if its Bizarro throwing that punch? Their heads are coming off. His durability is also far above Flash's whether its Barry or Wally...
 

Surviving a planet busting attack at point blank range from Synnar the Demiurge (Rann-Thanagar Holy War #6)


 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Ending Solomon Grundy's curse by speed blitzing him to the sun in a matter of moments (Blackest Night #067)

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
#19 Posted by Rogues (10652 posts) - 7 months, 12 days ago - Show Bio

See, this is what I love about the Rogues when it comes to battles. They aren't powerhouse flying bricks. They don't have rings that let them do anything. They have ways of incapacitating and neutralizing their foes. They aren't "Punch, kick, elbow, heatvision", fighters.

#20 Posted by IZZR (3947 posts) - 7 months, 12 days ago - Show Bio
@nickthedevil said:
See, this is what I love about the Rogues when it comes to battles. They aren't powerhouse flying bricks. They don't have rings that let them do anything. They have ways of incapacitating and neutralizing their foes. They aren't "Punch, kick, elbow, heatvision", fighters.
But Nick what scan have i posted that replicates that exact method of fighting youre talking about??? Biz is very versatile he alone has more powers than all the Rogues side Mirror master. Obviously him being the only powerhouse on my squad i will show his attributes.
#21 Posted by IZZR (3947 posts) - 7 months, 12 days ago - Show Bio
@Floopay
 
Cheetah and Bizarro are both close to being actual speedsters and have proven to be exceptionally fast both on their feet and in Bizarro's case in the air.
 

Cheetah Vs. Flash (Flash Vol.2 #219)

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Bizarro Vs. Zoom (Action Comics #831)

#22 Posted by Esquire (3331 posts) - 7 months, 12 days ago - Show Bio

@IZZR

Lex one shotting the Teen Titans and it shows how his battlesuit effortlessly tanks hits from the Titans.

And this is the beauty of Weather Wizard. His tornado will ignore the suit's durability, by being created inside of Lex himself. No amount of armor will keep Lex's internal organs from getting scrambled like eggs.

#23 Posted by Floopay (6007 posts) - 7 months, 12 days ago - Show Bio

@IZZR:

Did you mean to tag with that post, because you tagged me, and I was just posting a funny Legion of Doom video.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#24 Posted by IZZR (3947 posts) - 7 months, 12 days ago - Show Bio
@Esquire: Im pretty confident Biz or Barbara can break his neck before he has a chance to pull something like that, secondly WW has never shown the ability to do that to someone of Lex's caliber, he did it to a nobody that wasnt able to fight back.
#25 Posted by Esquire (3331 posts) - 7 months, 12 days ago - Show Bio

@Floopay said:

@IZZR:

Did you mean to tag with that post, because you tagged me, and I was just posting a funny Legion of Doom video.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

Grundy and Pants in any video make it worth posting. And I did get tagged somehow, so it's all good.

#26 Posted by XImpossibruX (3742 posts) - 7 months, 12 days ago - Show Bio

Cheetah tried to rape Flash.... huh...

#27 Posted by Esquire (3331 posts) - 7 months, 11 days ago - Show Bio

@IZZR said:

@Esquire: Im pretty confident Biz or Barbara can break his neck before he has a chance to pull something like that, secondly WW has never shown the ability to do that to someone of Lex's caliber, he did it to a nobody that wasnt able to fight back.

Because he does't fight Flash or anything...

Weather Wizard, like all of the Rogues, has reflexes honed by fighting the Flash, so they can keep up with all of your team in combat speed. Both Bizarro and Cheetah could get blasted with his lightning, since he's tagged Wally with it, or he could summon a tornado powerful enough to capture both of them, at least temporarily. And what difference does it make who he did it to? Lex has no superhuman durability in his insides. It's only the exosuit, which won't help him against that sort of damage. Plus, the "nobody" was a weather manipulator himself, iirc.

#28 Posted by IZZR (3947 posts) - 7 months, 11 days ago - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

@IZZR said:

@Esquire: Im pretty confident Biz or Barbara can break his neck before he has a chance to pull something like that, secondly WW has never shown the ability to do that to someone of Lex's caliber, he did it to a nobody that wasnt able to fight back.

Because he does't fight Flash or anything...

Weather Wizard, like all of the Rogues, has reflexes honed by fighting the Flash, so they can keep up with all of your team in combat speed. Both Bizarro and Cheetah could get blasted with his lightning, since he's tagged Wally with it, or he could summon a tornado powerful enough to capture both of them, at least temporarily. And what difference does it make who he did it to? Lex has no superhuman durability in his insides. It's only the exosuit, which won't help him against that sort of damage. Plus, the "nobody" was a weather manipulator himself, iirc.

It doesn't matter Flash never fights them with morals off i am not interested in him creating tornados inside a stomach of some nobody, The Rogues have only really ever fought Flash and a few losers here and there, whilst a part of the secret society three of them got one shotted by the Apokoliptian Mantis, during the Salvation Run Captain Colds gun could barely contain some unheard of robot so what do you think 2 100+ levelers who happen to be speedsters will do to him or WW who is used to fighting people on the ground and having the flight advantage?

#29 Posted by Esquire (3331 posts) - 7 months, 11 days ago - Show Bio

@IZZR said:

It doesn't matter Flash never fights them with morals off i am not interested in him creating tornados inside a stomach of some nobody, The Rogues have only really ever fought Flash and a few losers here and there, whilst a part of the secret society three of them got one shotted by the Apokoliptian Mantis, during the Salvation Run Captain Colds gun could barely contain some unheard of robot so what do you think 2 100+ levelers who happen to be speedsters will do to him or WW who is used to fighting people on the ground and having the flight advantage?

Morals on Flash is still faster than anyone on your team, so the feats are valid. The point of the tornado feat is that he can do it at all. There's no reason for it not to work on Lex, Grodd, Sinestro, or Cheetah. If you can make an argument as to how they'll resist it, then we can consider it. But for now, I have no reason to believe it wouldn't work. And that's hardly his only attack, as I've shown.

"A few losers" like Superman, Martian Manhunter, Superboy, Black Lanterns... need I go on? And fighting Flash is feats enough in itself.

The Rogues were hugely lowballed in Salvation Run. Cold's gun has repeatedly worked against Flash, and has stopped bullets, lightning, and even Superman, although that was off-panel.

You like to talk about how fast your team is, but none of them are Flash fast. So they can all be tagged. And I haven't broken out my best anti-blitz weapon yet. Enter: The Top.

Roscoe Dillon is a man of many powers. Telepathy, Telekinesis, Superspeed, Gizmo Genius, Vertigo are all part of his powerset. His vertigo will be especially useful here, since you're trying to debate your characters blitzing mine. Wally tried to blitz him and got so dizzy he ran off course into a wall. Top caused so much dizziness he started vomiting, and Top moves fast enough to both dodge and blitz Flash. He can cause your team to lose their ability to see and move right, and throw off their balance so much that they can't fight effectively at all. This removes the blitz option from your team, even without factoring in my team's ridiculous reflexes. Sinestro especially will be thrown off his game by the visual distortion, like Kyle was when he was blinded during Tower of Babel. Top makes everyone else on my team far more effective, by making everyone on your team far less effective.

#30 Posted by IZZR (3947 posts) - 7 months, 10 days ago - Show Bio
@Esquire said:

@IZZR said:

It doesn't matter Flash never fights them with morals off i am not interested in him creating tornados inside a stomach of some nobody, The Rogues have only really ever fought Flash and a few losers here and there, whilst a part of the secret society three of them got one shotted by the Apokoliptian Mantis, during the Salvation Run Captain Colds gun could barely contain some unheard of robot so what do you think 2 100+ levelers who happen to be speedsters will do to him or WW who is used to fighting people on the ground and having the flight advantage?

Morals on Flash is still faster than anyone on your team, so the feats are valid. The point of the tornado feat is that he can do it at all. There's no reason for it not to work on Lex, Grodd, Sinestro, or Cheetah. If you can make an argument as to how they'll resist it, then we can consider it. But for now, I have no reason to believe it wouldn't work. And that's hardly his only attack, as I've shown.

"A few losers" like Superman, Martian Manhunter, Superboy, Black Lanterns... need I go on? And fighting Flash is feats enough in itself.

The Rogues were hugely lowballed in Salvation Run. Cold's gun has repeatedly worked against Flash, and has stopped bullets, lightning, and even Superman, although that was off-panel.

You like to talk about how fast your team is, but none of them are Flash fast. So they can all be tagged. And I haven't broken out my best anti-blitz weapon yet. Enter: The Top.

Roscoe Dillon is a man of many powers. Telepathy, Telekinesis, Superspeed, Gizmo Genius, Vertigo are all part of his powerset. His vertigo will be especially useful here, since you're trying to debate your characters blitzing mine. Wally tried to blitz him and got so dizzy he ran off course into a wall. Top caused so much dizziness he started vomiting, and Top moves fast enough to both dodge and blitz Flash. He can cause your team to lose their ability to see and move right, and throw off their balance so much that they can't fight effectively at all. This removes the blitz option from your team, even without factoring in my team's ridiculous reflexes. Sinestro especially will be thrown off his game by the visual distortion, like Kyle was when he was blinded during Tower of Babel. Top makes everyone else on my team far more effective, by making everyone on your team far less effective.

LOL Wait!!! wait wait....do you really think Top's punches would even phase Bizarro or Lex who are actually used to trading blows with Superman??? Or Cheetah who trades blows with Wonder Woman? or even Sinestro who took a hell of a beating from Mongul and just shrugg it off in the end and got up...? When have the Rogues fought Superman? or Martian Manhunter? Black Lanterns you say??? lol everyone and their moms fought black lanterns dude. Cheetah has fought and beat the hell out of Wally as my scans showed, Grodd has done the same, Sinestro has fought everyone from Lobo, to the JLA to Parallax, Lex Luthor has fought everyone lol Bizarro has bested Superman more than once so erm yeah...
#31 Posted by Esquire (3331 posts) - 7 months, 10 days ago - Show Bio

@IZZR said:

LOL Wait!!! wait wait....do you really think Top's punches would even phase Bizarro or Lex who are actually used to trading blows with Superman??? Or Cheetah who trades blows with Wonder Woman? or even Sinestro who took a hell of a beating from Mongul and just shrugg it off in the end and got up...?

LOL Wait!!! wait wait...do you really think I mentioned Top's punches at all in that post? Even once? I suggest you look again. I mentioned his speed and him blitzing Flash, but that's not why he's an effective character. I emphasized his ability to cause vertigo and dizziness and to throw off their vision. You haven't shown me any reasons to believe it won't work on any of your characters, since their resistance to getting punched has no bearing.

See, the Rogues aren't like Superman or Wonder Woman or Mongul. They don't pound their enemies over the head until they win. Your durability doesn't matter one whit against several of my characters. Weather Wizard has his belly tornado, which you have yet to make a valid argument against, Top has vertigo, and I haven't even gotten into Piper and Mirror Master yet.

To answer your question, no, I don't think Top can just punch out Luthor, Bizarro, Cheetah, or Sinestro. I think he can strip away their combat effectiveness to make way for my characters who can kill them.

When have the Rogues fought Superman? or Martian Manhunter? Black Lanterns you say??? lol everyone and their moms fought black lanterns dude. Cheetah has fought and beat the hell out of Wally as my scans showed, Grodd has done the same, Sinestro has fought everyone from Lobo, to the JLA to Parallax, Lex Luthor has fought everyone lol Bizarro has bested Superman more than once so erm yeah...

They fought Superman and Superboy in Flash #166, and fought Martian Manhunter in the first issue of Salvation Run, which you enjoy referencing so much. Even though the Rogues were massively nerfed, seeing as Mirror Master should have instantly teleported them off of Salvation as soon as they arrived, and all of their showings are below what theyve shown elsewhere.

Many people fought Black Lanterns, but stomping several of them is still a pretty solid feat, hardly the same as fighting "nobody's."

Cheetah beat Wally because she cut his throat while he was distracted by Zoom, and then didn't let up for the rest of the fight after she had him vulnerable. Wally destroys her in feats.

Grodd doesn't have the reflexes to keep up here, he'll get blitzed by just about anyone on my team.

Sinestro has more options, but he'll still go down quickly against most of my team, since they ignore his durability. Luthor is the same way.

Bizarro is stupid and will be vulnerable to Top's TP as soon as Grodd is killed, which will happen instantly. The only reason he could at all keep up with Zoom is because he made a deal that he would join the Secret Society if Zoom lost the race. So Zoom lost on purpose. Zoom 3x the speed of a Flash, and the Flashes have routinely been shown to be far faster than Superman.

Anyway, I'm going to skip the rundown of Piper, CC, and MM, and get down to how my team will win.

As soon as the fight starts, my team can get the first shots in. They all fight Flash for a living, so they have better reflexes than anyone on your team.

  • Top will induce nausea and dizziness in your team, throwing off any blitz attempts and reducing their dodging ability.
  • Owen will spam Explosive and Razor boomerangs, decimating Grodd, Shadow Thief, and Cheetah. He's tagged Flash and a Flash clone, so he'll have no trouble tagging your team, especially with them disoriented.
  • Pied Piper will make your team unaware of my presence and then start exploding heads.
  • Weather Wizard will Lightning Strike Grodd, Cheetah, Bizarro, and Shadow Thief, and create tornadoes inside of Lex, Sinestro, and Bizarro.
  • Captain Cold will activate his Cold Field and then flash freeze anyone left standing
  • Mirror Master will start spamming duplicates out of the numerous glass surfaces in Metropolis, and transmute Bizarro to glass, followed by the rest of your team. He'll turn Cheetah inside out for kicks.

None of your team has time to react to any of this. None of your team has the durability to resist all or even most of these attacks. This is the power of the Rogues.

#32 Posted by IZZR (3947 posts) - 7 months, 10 days ago - Show Bio

@Esquire: Im sorry but your analysis of this fight is way off...first of all no one in your team can come anywhere close to being a team buster and let alone take on the Teen Titans and one shot a big chunk of them, the Rogues as intelligent as they are do not come close to Gorilla Grodd's or Lex's intelligence and battle strategy. My team are used to taking on multiple heros on their own side of Gorilla Grodd who is mostly used to fighting Flash (ridiculous that you can say he can't keep up with their "reflexes" when he has just as much experience fighting Barry and Wally). Now...on to your conclusion of Top using his abilities on my team, i have a telepath which actually has the same power as Top and furthermore, Libra...who also has the same power as Top got annihilated by Lex so that does not work on him, i already showed you Brainiac actually implanted nanites inside Lex to control him but his will is so powerful he actually used those nanites to become a abstract being.

#33 Posted by Esquire (3331 posts) - 7 months, 9 days ago - Show Bio

@IZZR said:

@Esquire: Im sorry but your analysis of this fight is way off...first of all no one in your team can come anywhere close to being a team buster and let alone take on the Teen Titans and one shot a big chunk of them,

I see you haven't read Teen Titans: Cold Case. Right after the Rogues escape from Planet Salvation, so they're beat up and exhausted, they come into conflict with the Titans. I know this is only a cover, but it's a pretty accurate showing of how things go for the Titans.

Most of the Rogues' showings are against Flash rather than teams, but they've never struggled with teams when they have faced them. Mirror Master could solo most of the DC Universe, and most of the Rogues have the ability to defeat plenty of teams, if it came to that.

The Rogues as intelligent as they are do not come close to Gorilla Grodd's or Lex's intelligence and battle strategy. My team are used to taking on multiple heros on their own side of Gorilla Grodd who is mostly used to fighting Flash (ridiculous that you can say he can't keep up with their "reflexes" when he has just as much experience fighting Barry and Wally).

Strategy counts for little in a random encounter, especially as the fight will most likely be over within seconds. Cold, especially, has fantastic strategic acumen, and all of the Rogues have solid prep showings, so they're indeed intelligent, as you say. Maybe not Luthor smart, but smart enough to be effective in a setting like this where strategy is downplayed due to speed.

Grodd is decent on the draw, yes, but I've shown you speed feats of my characters outreacting blitzing Flashes. In the first scan, Captain Cold is able to shoot a blitzing Kid Zoom, who's far faster than any Flash. The last two show what happens when Grodd is blitzed by Kid Flash, the Flash the Rogues were able to kill without too much trouble. And right after that, he's blitzed by Wally, who the Rogues have made their living fighting. Grodd's reflexes simply aren't on the same level as the Rogues' have shown to be.

Now...on to your conclusion of Top using his abilities on my team, i have a telepath which actually has the same power as Top and furthermore, Libra...who also has the same power as Top got annihilated by Lex so that does not work on him, i already showed you Brainiac actually implanted nanites inside Lex to control him but his will is so powerful he actually used those nanites to become a abstract being.

When has either Grodd or Libra showed the same powers as Top? Top can use his TP to induce vertigo, but he can also effect the way his enemies' retinas interpret light. I've never seen Grodd or Libra do either. Are you basing this on Lex saying "I'll show you balance?" Because he's not talking about disorientation, he's being ironic by quoting something Libra likes to talk about, the balance between Good and Evil.

What does Lex's willpower have to do with light bending as it hits his retinas? Willpower will do nothing to stop Top from throwing him off his game. Also, his will wasn't strong enough to prevent Alexander Luthor from overriding his brainwaves, but that doesn't really matter since willpower is irrelevant here.

#34 Posted by IZZR (3947 posts) - 7 months, 9 days ago - Show Bio

I see you haven't read Teen Titans: Cold Case. Right after the Rogues escape from Planet Salvation, so they're beat up and exhausted, they come into conflict with the Titans. I know this is only a cover, but it's a pretty accurate showing of how things go for the Titans.

lol dude we both know that fight was like 9 Rogues vs 5 Titans and it was actually a draw, Mirror Master was struggling to tag Robin and Raveger let alone anyone else so compare that to Lex one shotting them and then it will make sense in your head. They only get far due to the Flashe's fighting with morals but when morals come off they get their asses handed to them in minimal seconds..
 


 

#35 Posted by Rogues (10652 posts) - 7 months, 9 days ago - Show Bio

^That was a dream sequence, IIRC

#36 Posted by IZZR (3947 posts) - 7 months, 9 days ago - Show Bio

@nickthedevil said:

^That was a dream sequence, IIRC

No no no...Simulated training, shows what a morals off Bart would do to them.

#37 Posted by Rogues (10652 posts) - 7 months, 9 days ago - Show Bio

Does that make it a viable feat? I seem to recall a Wolverine solo-ing Mister Sjnister in the Danger Room. It's Simulated Training. That's all it is. Added to the fact that Bart Allen is the most incompetent Flash to ever exist.

#38 Posted by Esquire (3331 posts) - 7 months, 8 days ago - Show Bio

@IZZR said:

@nickthedevil said:

^That was a dream sequence, IIRC

No no no...Simulated training, shows what a morals off Bart would do to them.

Ultimate Wolverine Soloed the Ultimate X-Men in a simulation. Does that make him more dangerous than all of the Ultimate X-Men combined? (The correct answer is No.) A simulation doesn't count for Jack as far as feats. If you remember, when Bart actually took on the Rogues, they killed him. And why does it matter that they don't face Morals Off Flashes, anyway? None of your characters are nearly as fast as a Morals-Off Flash would be.

#39 Posted by Esquire (3331 posts) - 7 months, 5 days ago - Show Bio

You coming back to this, or do you want to open it up for voting?

#40 Posted by beatboks1 (5048 posts) - 7 months, 2 hours ago - Show Bio

Bump

#41 Posted by Esquire (3331 posts) - 7 months, 2 hours ago - Show Bio

Rogues versus Legion of Doom! Debate kinds of ends abruptly, but votes would be appreciated, anyway. Thanks guys!

#42 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (1220 posts) - 7 months, 2 hours ago - Show Bio

i'm votin for the Legion of Doom. sorry Esquire. Love the rouges, but i love Bizzaro more!!!!!

#43 Posted by god_spawn (31196 posts) - 7 months, 1 hour ago - Show Bio

Esquire.

Moderator Online
#44 Posted by Esquire (3331 posts) - 7 months, 1 hour ago - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1 said:

i'm votin for the Legion of Doom. sorry Esquire. Love the rouges, but i love Bizzaro more!!!!!

Out of curiosity, what made you give them the victory?

#45 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (1220 posts) - 7 months, 1 hour ago - Show Bio

'm just agreeing more with the capabilities of Legion of doom's power sets.... IMO the combo of Bizzaro and Sinestro is tough to compensate for.

#46 Posted by CadenceV2 (11019 posts) - 7 months, 1 hour ago - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

@IZZR said:

@nickthedevil said:

^That was a dream sequence, IIRC

No no no...Simulated training, shows what a morals off Bart would do to them.

Ultimate Wolverine Soloed the Ultimate X-Men in a simulation. Does that make him more dangerous than all of the Ultimate X-Men combined? (The correct answer is No.) A simulation doesn't count for Jack as far as feats. If you remember, when Bart actually took on the Rogues, they killed him. And why does it matter that they don't face Morals Off Flashes, anyway? None of your characters are nearly as fast as a Morals-Off Flash would be.

DISAGREE!!!!

Xavier tune that simulation with his TP so it be closest to the real thing. Nobody in the Magneto Sims ever beat Magneto since he cant be beaten without a random factor involve (PIS). It is a VERY ACCURATE showing of wolverine Skill AT THAT TIME!

No Wolverines dead so its a moot point :)

Anyway Im voting for @IZZR: as he convince me ha can tank most of the attacks with ease.

#47 Posted by Sherlock (6855 posts) - 7 months, 59 seconds ago - Show Bio

I'm slightly surprised that Esquire doesn't have more votes.He pretty much dominated this the whole time.I give him mine BTW

#48 Posted by SpeedForceSpider (901 posts) - 6 months, 30 days ago - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

Esquire.

#49 Posted by Floopay (6007 posts) - 6 months, 30 days ago - Show Bio

@Esquire:

All those people, and I'm not included in that list!? :P

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#50 Posted by Esquire (3331 posts) - 6 months, 30 days ago - Show Bio

@cosmicallyaware1 said:

'm just agreeing more with the capabilities of Legion of doom's power sets.... IMO the combo of Bizzaro and Sinestro is tough to compensate for.

Okay, cool. Thanks for voting!

@CadenceV2 said:

Anyway Im voting for IZZR as he convince me ha can tank most of the attacks with ease.

Can I ask which attacks? I don't recall a lot of debate on durability.

@Floopay said:

@Esquire:

All those people, and I'm not included in that list!? :P

That is truly a travesty of far-reaching proportions. *Hurriedly adds Floopay to CaV voting roll call*

@Sherlock said:

I'm slightly surprised that Esquire doesn't have more votes.He pretty much dominated this the whole time.I give him mine BTW

Thanks for calling it like it is, lol. ;)

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