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#51 Posted by Forever (4332 posts) - - Show Bio

Buckshot says:

"I remember that what I said (thrust/strength, not lobo/hulk) had something to do with (among other things) it all just being force. Whether the power to lift whatever it is comes from flight or from Superman's biceps, it's still force that he can use against someone else. He can fly into someone as easily as punch them, so the power to move a planet, moon, whatever, is still there. That alone doesn't say that his punch packs the same power though, so you're right, we can't say that Lobo withstood planet-moving strength since he's getting hit with punches, not being flown at, the way the planet was moved. But, like the picture I posted shows, he *does* have that kind of power in his punches (backing up the idea that the planet thing is being presented as a strength feat as opposed to a flight/durability feat), so Lobo standing up to it repeatedly (even if Superman's not going all out) is more than anything Hulk's taken."

We're in agreement until you get to the end there. I think it's still debatable exactly what level of strength (or force) that Lobo is enduring and certainly debatable as to whether it is more than Hulk has ever faced. Because he pulls his punches (just like all of the other heroes) we dont know if Superman hits Lobo with more force then Thor, the Maestro or the Abomination have hit Hulk with.

Buckshot says:

"Nothing in those images is anything Lobo hasn't been able to do. And Hulk being able to survive from a broken neck doesn't mean he'd survive having his head (or major organs) removed. In fact, the broken neck presents another way for Lobo to win. Break his neck (easier than taking it off with him still alive) or do some other kind of major damage, and while he's out or healing, take him apart."

I know you know that I've been arguing with you because of the pure enjoyment of it and of course I have continued to agree that in the early stages of the fight with a mildly pissed off Hulk, Lobo could just take him apart. But we don't know what level of anger Hulk is at when he steps into this fight or just how quickly he can ramp up that anger. I dont know exactly how much stronger than Hulk Lobo is. I know how much stronger Superman is, but being able to go toe to toe with him isn't so big of a feet considering he's always pulling his punches. I think Superman is probably fighting well below one percent of his potential output (accepting his strength level from those images you provided) because any more than that and he would be destroying Metropolis with the shockwaves from his hits and instantly liquifying whoever he was punching.

Buckshot says:

"I don't see why this fight would drag on since Lobo starts out, and will be for a while, enormously stronger, but if it did drag out, Lobo could continue to fight for eternity and Hulk would tire out in days, weeks at most. Unrelated: It's funny, but the second two images are things I've seen Midnighter do. He's healed from a broken neck (said it was nothing compared to his morning workout) and been burned by the avatar of the sun as badly as Hulk was. "

Hulk would tire out and so this fight for him is like a bell curve. He could easily lose in the first few moments and after a few weeks but in between he would have a chance. Fueled by enough anger he could easily tear Lobo into so many little pieces and then throw them in different directions what that insane strength of his. What part would Lobo regenerate from? Especially if his brain and heart were torn apart too and how long would it take him to reconstitute from that?

Oh and nice job plugging your boy Midnighter.

Buckshot says:

"Hulk, in his current state, is being made out to be stronger, and better than ever before, but I still haven't seen anything that puts him (at the start of the fight) anywhere near Superman, or the people he fights, like Lobo. Lobo is still much stronger than him until he angers up some more, and until then, he's capable of tearing him apart with his bear hands, breaking his bones, eviscerating him, and finding other ways to beat him. And then, if for some reason Lobo doesn't do that and lets Hulk get angrier, when Hulk gets strong/tough enough that Lobo can't do that to him, he still can't kill Lobo, and eventually, after a few days or weeks fighting all out, Hulk will be worn out and Lobo won't. "

Yes yes, this is what would probably happen, but if Hulk is able to get sufficiently angry to do as I said above, or even something as mundane as launching Lobo into space, then Hulk would win. Lobo could do the same things to him and has more of a chance to do so, since Hulk would need to get sufficiently enraged while Lobo already has the necessary strength, but it's not impossible for Hulk to win. It just depends on what level of rage Hulk comes into this fight at. Lobo being pulled inexorably into the sun would count as a win for Hulk.

#52 Posted by Sync (960 posts) - - Show Bio

Vlad Tepes Dracula says:

"Buckshot says:
"He lost the ability to make clones from his blood, not heal himself from it. How would you defeat Lobo even once? He has durability and strength to go head to head with Superman, speed to keep up with him (fighting, not flying) and even surprise him sometimes and fast enough healing that any damage Hulk is delivering is healed in seconds. If he can't stop Lobo from fighting, even for a few minutes, he hasn't defeated him. "
Hulk could still just wrap him up in adamantium like this poor feller... and that would make him win because Lobo cant do nothting"

wow great move!!!!

how did this whole hulk lobo thing start, further does it really matter

lobo cant die!@#!#!@#, but can be defeated ie imprisioned,trapped or beat down. If he goes in and handles busniess than he wins, if not hulk just beats on him a long time.

hulk just gets madder and madder! !#@#!#!@#!.

he has beat superman and has the highier win count, and if lobo on superman level? than it seems hulk will do the same to him as he did to superman

i also agree with rotten gun, that hulk is becomeing uber, but in his defense, if your poo tang got blown up and your kid killed your kick heaven and hell butt too.

#53 Posted by Forever (4332 posts) - - Show Bio

Methos says:

"Buckshot says:
""Quintillion" is my new favorite word/number."
it is very cool :D M"

Methos you always have the best Avatars.

#54 Posted by Sparda (15795 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think Hulk will get tired. I mean, he spent weeks swimming across the Atlantic ocean non-stop, and when he got to land he wasn't tired. And, just an argument about rage, in Secret Wars, it only took about 10 seconds for him to get angry enough to lift that 150 billiont tonne mountain range.

#55 Posted by Sync (960 posts) - - Show Bio

i wonder how long it will take for lobo to learn just walk away and leave him along :P

#56 Posted by warlock360 (28050 posts) - - Show Bio

Sparda says:

"I don't think Hulk will get tired. I mean, he spent weeks swimming across the Atlantic ocean non-stop, and when he got to land he wasn't tired. And, just an argument about rage, in Secret Wars, it only took about 10 seconds for him to get angry enough to lift that 150 billiont tonne mountain range."

agreed...and there also was this one case where hulk was just passing byand saw Thor...^^

he started pounding on him without no reason and when he left Thor was "bearly alive" ...laying somewhere crushed in the street nd the reason why he did it wa because... "hulk dont like long hair...HULK SMASH!!!"

yeah so...kinda unpredictable...i couldnt stop laughing^^

#57 Posted by Sparda (15795 posts) - - Show Bio

I remember that. All you see is Thor's hand sticking out of the ground. Priceless.

#58 Posted by warlock360 (28050 posts) - - Show Bio

indeed^^

#59 Posted by Forever (4332 posts) - - Show Bio

I think you three are right and that it will be a longer fight then expected.

#60 Posted by Buckshot (18915 posts) - - Show Bio

Forever says:

"We're in agreement until you get to the end there. I think it's still debatable exactly what level of strength (or force) that Lobo is enduring and certainly debatable as to whether it is more than Hulk has ever faced. Because he pulls his punches (just like all of the other heroes) we dont know if Superman hits Lobo with more force then Thor, the Maestro or the Abomination have hit Hulk with."

You're right, it is debatable exactly how much damage he's taking when fighting Superman, but what is not debatable, is that he can take more damage than Hulk simply because of the fact that he can not die (plus, even if he could, his healing factor embarrasses Hulk's).

Forever says:

"I know you know that I've been arguing with you because of the pure enjoyment of it"

That's the only reason I'm still going at it.

Forever says:

"and of course I have continued to agree that in the early stages of the fight with a mildly pissed off Hulk, Lobo could just take him apart. But we don't know what level of anger Hulk is at when he steps into this fight or just how quickly he can ramp up that anger. I dont know exactly how much stronger than Hulk Lobo is. I know how much stronger Superman is, but being able to go toe to toe with him isn't so big of a feet considering he's always pulling his punches. I think Superman is probably fighting well below one percent of his potential output (accepting his strength level from those images you provided) because any more than that and he would be destroying Metropolis with the shockwaves from his hits and instantly liquifying whoever he was punching."

This is basically the same thing as the first part. I don't know exactly how much stronger Lobo is either (since I can't recall any easily identifiable strength feats like the Superman one, and I don't buy handbooks), but I do know that in his fights with Superman, he shows that he's strong enough to bruise and bloody him (not to mention fast enough that Superman can't always stop him from doing it, and that can't be because he's underestimating him every time they fight, so the speed is there) most of the times they fight. And Superman can't always be holding back to protect people. He's fought Lobo in space (near the sun) and still they seem to fight almost evenly. Lobo also usually gets Clark pissed off and, while he's still probably holding back, he's actually trying to hurt Lobo. (He knows Lobo can take it too, so why wouldn't he go wild on him?) Crossovers (take that how you will) have him fighting evenly with Thanos and destroying the area around them, and going head to head with the entire Authority, not known for pulling punches (Jenny Q was a baby and the Doctor was stoned, that's why they couldn't just get rid of him or something).

Forever says:

"Hulk would tire out and so this fight for him is like a bell curve. He could easily lose in the first few moments and after a few weeks but in between he would have a chance. Fueled by enough anger he could easily tear Lobo into so many little pieces and then throw them in different directions what that insane strength of his. What part would Lobo regenerate from? Especially if his brain and heart were torn apart too and how long would it take him to reconstitute from that?Oh and nice job plugging your boy Midnighter."

This is how I would label the bell curve: Lobo is more likely to win in the beginning. Lobo is also more likely to win in the end (after a long battle). Hulk could survive Lobo in the middle, but he still can't kill him or even stop him for any real amount of time. It doesn't matter how well he rips him up or how far he throws him, Lobo will be alive and will come back, not to mention he could do the same to Hulk before Hulk could do it to him.

Hey, I saw the similarities, what could I do.

Forever says:

"Yes yes, this is what would probably happen, but if Hulk is able to get sufficiently angry to do as I said above, or even something as mundane as launching Lobo into space, then Hulk would win. Lobo could do the same things to him and has more of a chance to do so, since Hulk would need to get sufficiently enraged while Lobo already has the necessary strength, but it's not impossible for Hulk to win. It just depends on what level of rage Hulk comes into this fight at. Lobo being pulled inexorably into the sun would count as a win for Hulk."

If Lobo can do to Hulk anything Hulk can do to him, why are people voting for Hulk? That was the reason I posted in the first place. Yeah, Hulk can throw him into the sun (he's flown through it before btw), but Lobo can do the same thing to him.

Forever says:

"Lobo could do the same things to him and has more of a chance to do so"

That is my point right there. Lobo can do what the Hulk can do and has a better chance (in the beginning before Hulk can put up a fight, or at the end when he's tired) plus it's impossible for him to die from anything, so why were people putting Hulk. This is what it seems like those who vote Hulk are saying: You can set off a bomb in my mouth, and I can set off a bomb in your mouth, but I won't die and you will, but you win anyway because you're green.

Vlad Tepes Dracula says:

"Hulk could still just wrap him up in adamantium like this poor feller..."

Yes, because Hulk carries enough adamantium to contain Lobo on his person at all times. Really now, come on.

Sparda says:

"I don't think Hulk will get tired. I mean, he spent weeks swimming across the Atlantic ocean non-stop, and when he got to land he wasn't tired. And, just an argument about rage, in Secret Wars, it only took about 10 seconds for him to get angry enough to lift that 150 billiont tonne mountain range."

While swimming is physically draining, it's not quite the same as fighting full tilt against someone who, no matter what you do, will not stop fighting back. And, for hopefully the last time, Hulk did not lift 150 billion tons of mountain. He braced a section of a 150 billion ton mountain, with assistance. Still impressive, but not quite the same as easily pressing 150 billion tons.

Moderator
#61 Posted by Sync (960 posts) - - Show Bio

Buckshot says:

"Forever says:
" We're in agreement until you get to the end there. I think it's still debatable exactly what level of strength (or force) that Lobo is enduring and certainly debatable as to whether it is more than Hulk has ever faced. Because he pulls his punches (just like all of the other heroes) we dont know if Superman hits Lobo with more force then Thor, the Maestro or the Abomination have hit Hulk with."
You're right, it is debatable exactly how much damage he's taking when fighting Superman, but what is not debatable, is that he can take more damage than Hulk simply because of the fact that he can not die (plus, even if he could, his healing factor embarrasses Hulk's). Forever says:
" I know you know that I've been arguing with you because of the pure enjoyment of it"
That's the only reason I'm still going at it. Forever says:
"and of course I have continued to agree that in the early stages of the fight with a mildly pissed off Hulk, Lobo could just take him apart. But we don't know what level of anger Hulk is at when he steps into this fight or just how quickly he can ramp up that anger. I dont know exactly how much stronger than Hulk Lobo is. I know how much stronger Superman is, but being able to go toe to toe with him isn't so big of a feet considering he's always pulling his punches. I think Superman is probably fighting well below one percent of his potential output (accepting his strength level from those images you provided) because any more than that and he would be destroying Metropolis with the shockwaves from his hits and instantly liquifying whoever he was punching."
This is basically the same thing as the first part. I don't know exactly how much stronger Lobo is either (since I can't recall any easily identifiable strength feats like the Superman one, and I don't buy handbooks), but I do know that in his fights with Superman, he shows that he's strong enough to bruise and bloody him (not to mention fast enough that Superman can't always stop him from doing it, and that can't be because he's underestimating him *every* time they fight, so the speed is there) most of the times they fight. And Superman can't always be holding back to protect people. He's fought Lobo in space (near the sun) and still they seem to fight almost evenly. Lobo also usually gets Clark pissed off and, while he's still probably holding back, he's actually trying to hurt Lobo. (He knows Lobo can take it too, so why wouldn't he go wild on him?) Crossovers (take that how you will) have him fighting evenly with Thanos and destroying the area around them, and going head to head with the entire Authority, not known for pulling punches (Jenny Q was a baby and the Doctor was stoned, that's why they couldn't just get rid of him or something). Forever says:
" Hulk would tire out and so this fight for him is like a bell curve. He could easily lose in the first few moments and after a few weeks but in between he would have a chance. Fueled by enough anger he could easily tear Lobo into so many little pieces and then throw them in different directions what that insane strength of his. What part would Lobo regenerate from? Especially if his brain and heart were torn apart too and how long would it take him to reconstitute from that? Oh and nice job plugging your boy Midnighter."
This is how I would label the bell curve: Lobo is more likely to win in the beginning. Lobo is also more likely to win in the end (after a long battle). Hulk could survive Lobo in the middle, but he still can't kill him or even stop him for any real amount of time. It doesn't matter how well he rips him up or how far he throws him, Lobo will be alive and will come back, not to mention he could do the same to Hulk *before* Hulk could do it to him. Hey, I saw the similarities, what could I do. Forever says:
" Yes yes, this is what would probably happen, but if Hulk is able to get sufficiently angry to do as I said above, or even something as mundane as launching Lobo into space, then Hulk would win. Lobo could do the same things to him and has more of a chance to do so, since Hulk would need to get sufficiently enraged while Lobo already has the necessary strength, but it's not impossible for Hulk to win. It just depends on what level of rage Hulk comes into this fight at. Lobo being pulled inexorably into the sun would count as a win for Hulk."
If Lobo can do to Hulk anything Hulk can do to him, why are people voting for Hulk? That was the reason I posted in the first place. Yeah, Hulk can throw him into the sun (he's flown through it before btw), but Lobo can do the same thing to him. Forever says:
"Lobo could do the same things to him and has more of a chance to do so"
That is my point right there. Lobo can do what the Hulk can do and has a better chance (in the beginning before Hulk can put up a fight, or at the end when he's tired) *plus* it's impossible for him to die from anything, so why were people putting Hulk. This is what it seems like those who vote Hulk are saying: You can set off a bomb in my mouth, and I can set off a bomb in your mouth, but I won't die and you will, but you win anyway because you're green. Vlad Tepes Dracula says:
" Hulk could still just wrap him up in adamantium like this poor feller... "
Yes, because Hulk carries enough adamantium to contain Lobo on his person at all times. Really now, come on. Sparda says:
"I don't think Hulk will get tired. I mean, he spent weeks swimming across the Atlantic ocean non-stop, and when he got to land he wasn't tired. And, just an argument about rage, in Secret Wars, it only took about 10 seconds for him to get angry enough to lift that 150 billiont tonne mountain range."
While swimming is physically draining, it's not quite the same as fighting full tilt against someone who, no matter what you do, will not stop fighting back. And, for hopefully the last time, Hulk did not lift 150 billion tons of mountain. He *braced* a *section* of a 150 billion ton mountain, with assistance. Still impressive, but not quite the same as easily pressing 150 billion tons."

1st lets not impose OUR idea of what we SEE as in the 150 billion ton mountain example.

the fact is it was lifted, which mean it was done.

as for beating/deafeating..... it was my understanding that the one who falls 1st or gets the 1st kill or is most likely to get the 1st is winner.

one would have to research if lobo has every been beaten or knocked cold out, if he has than hulk should be able to do the same given that the way lobo was beaten or knocked out was not too exterme.

your statement about crossover i do not follow, are you saying you disclaim them when lobo is beaten in them for whatever reason????

when does the hulk become fatguie, it is my understanding, that he has unlmited endurance and stamina while hes enraged???

so beacuse lobo cannot die/heal fast??? he is unbeatable, lots of charchter in many comics are immortal/cant die / heal fast, and they HAVE been beat, but i gues lobo is the expection to the rule.... AS IF

but i must admit, its great to see you go though such lenghts, to make people aware of why and how come lobo could win just (as much of how hulk could win.)

#62 Posted by the creator (8561 posts) - - Show Bio

Buckshot says:

"Forever says:
" We're in agreement until you get to the end there. I think it's still debatable exactly what level of strength (or force) that Lobo is enduring and certainly debatable as to whether it is more than Hulk has ever faced. Because he pulls his punches (just like all of the other heroes) we dont know if Superman hits Lobo with more force then Thor, the Maestro or the Abomination have hit Hulk with."
You're right, it is debatable exactly how much damage he's taking when fighting Superman, but what is not debatable, is that he can take more damage than Hulk simply because of the fact that he can not die (plus, even if he could, his healing factor embarrasses Hulk's). Forever says:
" I know you know that I've been arguing with you because of the pure enjoyment of it"
That's the only reason I'm still going at it. Forever says:
"and of course I have continued to agree that in the early stages of the fight with a mildly pissed off Hulk, Lobo could just take him apart. But we don't know what level of anger Hulk is at when he steps into this fight or just how quickly he can ramp up that anger. I dont know exactly how much stronger than Hulk Lobo is. I know how much stronger Superman is, but being able to go toe to toe with him isn't so big of a feet considering he's always pulling his punches. I think Superman is probably fighting well below one percent of his potential output (accepting his strength level from those images you provided) because any more than that and he would be destroying Metropolis with the shockwaves from his hits and instantly liquifying whoever he was punching."
This is basically the same thing as the first part. I don't know exactly how much stronger Lobo is either (since I can't recall any easily identifiable strength feats like the Superman one, and I don't buy handbooks), but I do know that in his fights with Superman, he shows that he's strong enough to bruise and bloody him (not to mention fast enough that Superman can't always stop him from doing it, and that can't be because he's underestimating him *every* time they fight, so the speed is there) most of the times they fight. And Superman can't always be holding back to protect people. He's fought Lobo in space (near the sun) and still they seem to fight almost evenly. Lobo also usually gets Clark pissed off and, while he's still probably holding back, he's actually trying to hurt Lobo. (He knows Lobo can take it too, so why wouldn't he go wild on him?) Crossovers (take that how you will) have him fighting evenly with Thanos and destroying the area around them, and going head to head with the entire Authority, not known for pulling punches (Jenny Q was a baby and the Doctor was stoned, that's why they couldn't just get rid of him or something). Forever says:
" Hulk would tire out and so this fight for him is like a bell curve. He could easily lose in the first few moments and after a few weeks but in between he would have a chance. Fueled by enough anger he could easily tear Lobo into so many little pieces and then throw them in different directions what that insane strength of his. What part would Lobo regenerate from? Especially if his brain and heart were torn apart too and how long would it take him to reconstitute from that? Oh and nice job plugging your boy Midnighter."
This is how I would label the bell curve: Lobo is more likely to win in the beginning. Lobo is also more likely to win in the end (after a long battle). Hulk could survive Lobo in the middle, but he still can't kill him or even stop him for any real amount of time. It doesn't matter how well he rips him up or how far he throws him, Lobo will be alive and will come back, not to mention he could do the same to Hulk *before* Hulk could do it to him. Hey, I saw the similarities, what could I do. Forever says:
" Yes yes, this is what would probably happen, but if Hulk is able to get sufficiently angry to do as I said above, or even something as mundane as launching Lobo into space, then Hulk would win. Lobo could do the same things to him and has more of a chance to do so, since Hulk would need to get sufficiently enraged while Lobo already has the necessary strength, but it's not impossible for Hulk to win. It just depends on what level of rage Hulk comes into this fight at. Lobo being pulled inexorably into the sun would count as a win for Hulk."
If Lobo can do to Hulk anything Hulk can do to him, why are people voting for Hulk? That was the reason I posted in the first place. Yeah, Hulk can throw him into the sun (he's flown through it before btw), but Lobo can do the same thing to him. Forever says:
"Lobo could do the same things to him and has more of a chance to do so"
That is my point right there. Lobo can do what the Hulk can do and has a better chance (in the beginning before Hulk can put up a fight, or at the end when he's tired) *plus* it's impossible for him to die from anything, so why were people putting Hulk. This is what it seems like those who vote Hulk are saying: You can set off a bomb in my mouth, and I can set off a bomb in your mouth, but I won't die and you will, but you win anyway because you're green. Vlad Tepes Dracula says:
" Hulk could still just wrap him up in adamantium like this poor feller... "
Yes, because Hulk carries enough adamantium to contain Lobo on his person at all times. Really now, come on. Sparda says:
"I don't think Hulk will get tired. I mean, he spent weeks swimming across the Atlantic ocean non-stop, and when he got to land he wasn't tired. And, just an argument about rage, in Secret Wars, it only took about 10 seconds for him to get angry enough to lift that 150 billiont tonne mountain range."
While swimming is physically draining, it's not quite the same as fighting full tilt against someone who, no matter what you do, will not stop fighting back. And, for hopefully the last time, Hulk did not lift 150 billion tons of mountain. He *braced* a *section* of a 150 billion ton mountain, with assistance. Still impressive, but not quite the same as easily pressing 150 billion tons."

Nice posting Buckshot.

I have changed my vote on this fight - Lobo should win against the Hulk.

I was in two minds when i posted it. The handbook info on Lobo does give him strength at extremely high levels. This strength has been enough to fight Superman effectively.

Drawing from another source (that was supervised and backed by DC comics), the original DC roleplaying game placed Lobo's strength about 20% of Supermans and 20% of a massive figure is still really big.

On the matter of durability, I still think that the Hulk is roughly as durable as Lobo though.

#63 Posted by Buckshot (18915 posts) - - Show Bio

Sync says:

"1st lets not impose OUR idea of what we SEE as in the 150 billion ton mountain example.the fact is it was lifted, which mean it was done.as for beating/deafeating..... it was my understanding that the one who falls 1st or gets the 1st kill or is most likely to get the 1st is winner.one would have to research if lobo has every been beaten or knocked cold out, if he has than hulk should be able to do the same given that the way lobo was beaten or knocked out was not too exterme.your statement about crossover i do not follow, are you saying you disclaim them when lobo is beaten in them for whatever reason????when does the hulk become fatguie, it is my understanding, that he has unlmited endurance and stamina while hes enraged???so beacuse lobo cannot die/heal fast??? he is unbeatable, lots of charchter in many comics are immortal/cant die / heal fast, and they HAVE been beat, but i gues lobo is the expection to the rule.... AS IFbut i must admit, its great to see you go though such lenghts, to make people aware of why and how come lobo could win just (*as much of how hulk could win.*)"

You know I usually skip your posts because reading them hurts me, but since you want a response I'll oblige.

I was not "imposing my idea". He did not lift the mountain. Him bracing it was (I believe, but it's been a while) pointed out by either him or one of the characters. He didn't actually lift it up, he held it where it was. Also, he did not lift the whole thing, they were in a small alcove and the mountain around them had settled.

The fact is, it was not lifted.

Saying that whoever falls first is most likely to win, doesn't make sense to me. If you meant that the one who gets the other guy to fall first is more likely to win, I could understand that, but it's not necessarily true for either of these characters. Lobo heals almost instantly, so after he got back up (assuming Hulk could knock him out anyway) any ill effects from being knocked out would be gone. He wouldn't be weak or dazed after the hit, he'd have healed. Hulk would likewise heal and be fine. He'd actually be better than he was before because he'd get angrier. Angry enough to win right there (despite him not being able to kill his opponent) is debatable, but he'd be angry. Saying that the one who gets the first kill is more likely to be the winner makes even more sense, but this comes back to my point that Lobo CAN'T BE KILLED.

You're completely misinterpreting what I meant about crossovers. Some people don't value them solely because they're crossovers and the companies involved and the popularity of the characters is an important factor when it comes to who wins. For that reason, I was pointing out that it was a crossover and, for some, might not be as valid as single company books, but I wanted to bring it up anyway. And it's not like Lobo lost (he pwnd the Authority and I can't recall who won between him and Thanos), so I'm not trying to disclaim anything. And if I were so ready to disclaim it, why would I even bring it up?

That is your understanding. From my understanding (going by MDP since I can't recall instances in comics of Hulk fighting full on for days at a time) fatigue sets in after a few days, and while it does increase, I didn't read the word "limitless" anywhere. And not only will he get tired, he still requires nourishment, while Lobo does not.

The immortality thing has been brought up at least twice and I've answered it. Look for it.

Moderator
#64 Posted by Sparda (15795 posts) - - Show Bio

The point of the 150 billion ton mountain range wasn't that he could lift it, more the fact that it only took him 10 seconds (or whatever) to brace it. If he got twice as angry, three times, even more, I would hate to think what would happen to Lobo's face. It'll be close. Really close. Either could take it IMO.

#65 Posted by Buckshot (18915 posts) - - Show Bio

"10 seconds or whatever" Ok, as impressive as that may be, he also said he couldn't keep it up for long even though he kept getting angrier. He could not continue to support a fraction of the weight of the mountain (with help) for very long. Still nice, but I don't think that feat changes anything. It doesn't matter what will happen to Lobo's face, he'll just heal and Hulk will NEVER kill him.

Moderator
#66 Posted by Sparda (15795 posts) - - Show Bio

Didn't I say in the first post first to Knock Out?

#67 Posted by Buckshot (18915 posts) - - Show Bio

No, and even if you had meant to and just forgotten, why would you not say anything for four pages? I still think Lobo because he starts out stronger.

Moderator
#68 Posted by Forever (4332 posts) - - Show Bio

Buckshot says:

" You're right, it is debatable exactly how much damage he's taking when fighting Superman, but what is not debatable, is that he can take more damage than Hulk simply because of the fact that he can not die (plus, even if he could, his healing factor embarrasses Hulk's)."

I certainly wouldn’t debate that. That’s the thing that I can’t do anything with.

Buckshot says:

" This is basically the same thing as the first part. I don't know exactly how much stronger Lobo is either (since I can't recall any easily identifiable strength feats like the Superman one, and I don't buy handbooks), but I do know that in his fights with Superman, he shows that he's strong enough to bruise and bloody him (not to mention fast enough that Superman can't always stop him from doing it, and that can't be because he's underestimating him *every* time they fight, so the speed is there) most of the times they fight. And Superman can't always be holding back to protect people. He's fought Lobo in space (near the sun) and still they seem to fight almost evenly. Lobo also usually gets Clark pissed off and, while he's still probably holding back, he's actually trying to hurt Lobo. (He knows Lobo can take it too, so why wouldn't he go wild on him?) Crossovers (take that how you will) have him fighting evenly with Thanos and destroying the area around them, and going head to head with the entire Authority, not known for pulling punches (Jenny Q was a baby and the Doctor was stoned, that's why they couldn't just get rid of him or something)."

I take the speed at face value but we should look deeper into that. Superman doesn’t appear to speed blitz anyone. And only people who have that as their only power attempt to do so against most comic characters. How many times has Hulk fought Silver Surfer? Surfer doesn’t need to waste time with the Hulk. I cant count that as Hulk having super speed on the level to match the Surfer though. Superman just generally does not use his speed and reaction time unless he has to interpose himself between someone and an innocent. I think in a fight outside of the comics Superman would own Lobo (though still not be able to kill him).

Good thing I know what you mean when you say take crossovers as you will, and so I’m ignoring them completely (though how convenient of them to eliminate Jenny Q and the Doctor. At least they did that instead of have the two of them act as if they had forgotten how to use their powers).

Buckshot says:

" This is how I would label the bell curve: Lobo is more likely to win in the beginning. Lobo is also more likely to win in the end (after a long battle). Hulk could survive Lobo in the middle, but he still can't kill him or even stop him for any real amount of time. It doesn't matter how well he rips him up or how far he throws him, Lobo will be alive and will come back, not to mention he could do the same to Hulk *before* Hulk could do it to him."

Lobo certainly could do the same to Hulk before Hulk could do so (shhh no one mention the possibility that Lobo can move fast enough to keep up with Superman), but this is where we now have our stalemate where Hulk isn’t just surviving Lobo but they are both as much of a threat to each other. At this point of his rage, Hulk can’t really die either. Anything that would work on one for the win during this phase of the curve, would work on the other and it would be a tossup as to who would pull it off. I still say that if Lobo (or Hulk) were floating impotent in space, then the win would have to go to the guy who put them there. Now if it is Hulk floating there, eventually he would die, while Lobo would not, but that would be beside the point. Imagine Lobo floating outside the normal alien traffic lanes for a thousand years. No space bike to save himself. Nothing to do but just float there… while Hulk lives a nice long life and dies in peace. This is my one real remaining argument.

Buckshot says:

" If Lobo can do to Hulk anything Hulk can do to him, why are people voting for Hulk? That was the reason I posted in the first place. Yeah, Hulk can throw him into the sun (he's flown through it before btw), but Lobo can do the same thing to him."

This is one reason that it’s good that we have these debates and further illustrate the powers of both individuals. I’m sure you’ve seen how many people you have turned to Lobo’s side. Some people just don’t know these characters and don’t take the time to research and familiarize themselves with them.

Buckshot says:

" That is my point right there. Lobo can do what the Hulk can do and has a better chance (in the beginning before Hulk can put up a fight, or at the end when he's tired) *plus* it's impossible for him to die from anything, so why were people putting Hulk. This is what it seems like those who vote Hulk are saying: You can set off a bomb in my mouth, and I can set off a bomb in your mouth, but I won't die and you will, but you win anyway because you're green."

Again people tend not to spend the time to get to know characters outside of the big names, hell some people don’t even know them that well. And of course there is the huge Marvel bias that we seem to have on here. Most DC fans know the Marvel characters but Marvel fans don’t seem to know much at all about the DC characters outside of the JLA. Even at that, some of that seems to be JLU knowledge from watching TV.

#69 Posted by Forever (4332 posts) - - Show Bio

Sync says:

"but i must admit, its great to see you go though such lenghts, to make people aware of why and how come lobo could win just (*as much of how hulk could win.*) "

It's cause he's a giver.

#70 Posted by Sparda (15795 posts) - - Show Bio

Aw, crap. The first time I did it, it said K.O. Stupid Marvel.com moderators........

#71 Posted by Rotten gun (2509 posts) - - Show Bio

i dont think lobo could do as much damage to the characters hulk has in such a short amount of time, based on that its the lobo who should be the underdog. hulk is tearing everyone apart. and he doesn't need to be inraged to have the strength, he already is, at the moment he has a different type of anger, its hate down to the deepest part of him. if he was after lobo like he's after reed or strange etc then lobo is in deep trouble. look how bad he smashed the ghost rider and hulk didn't even have a problem with him. and you cant use the immortal card cause eventually every immortal would beat him. first to get smashed to a pulp wins

#72 Posted by Forever (4332 posts) - - Show Bio

Rotten gun says:

"i dont think lobo could do as much damage to the characters hulk has in such a short amount of time, based on that its the lobo who should be the underdog. hulk is tearing everyone apart. and he doesn't need to be inraged to have the strength, he already is, at the moment he has a different type of anger, its hate down to the deepest part of him. if he was after lobo like he's after reed or strange etc then lobo is in deep trouble. look how bad he smashed the ghost rider and hulk didn't even have a problem with him. and you cant use the immortal card cause eventually every immortal would beat him. first to get smashed to a pulp wins"

I know he's trashing everyone, including guys like Colossus, but are those guys on Lobo's level? Has anything Hulk has done in WW Hulk showing him to be at Superman's strength level? That's where you run into problems arguing Marvel vs DC. DC's characters are extremely powerful and most of DC's characters don't match up. I wouldn't be surprised if Lobo had as easy a time with everyone Hulk has faced, as Hulk himself has, if not an easier time.

#73 Posted by Buckshot (18915 posts) - - Show Bio

Forever says:

"I take the speed at face value but we should look deeper into that. Superman doesn’t appear to speed blitz anyone. And only people who have that as their only power attempt to do so against most comic characters. How many times has Hulk fought Silver Surfer? Surfer doesn’t need to waste time with the Hulk. I cant count that as Hulk having super speed on the level to match the Surfer though. Superman just generally does not use his speed and reaction time unless he has to interpose himself between someone and an innocent. I think in a fight outside of the comics Superman would own Lobo (though still not be able to kill him).Good thing I know what you mean when you say take crossovers as you will, and so I’m ignoring them completely (though how convenient of them to eliminate Jenny Q and the Doctor. At least they did that instead of have the two of them act as if they had forgotten how to use their powers)."

I wasn't referring to Lobo just attacking and Superman getting hit, because that's what normally happens with anyone who fights him. Superman usually just eats the damage inflicted on him and wins anyway. What I'm talking about when I'm saying Lobo has shown to be too fast for Superman are instances where he actually says things like (paraphrasing) "he's so fast...(which doesn't actually mean he's faster until it's followed by)...no time to react" or when he's actually taking damage and feeling pain but can't move out the way. (That's the same as what I use for examples of Lobo being strong enough to hurt him. When Supes says stuff like "that actually hurt" and is bleeding all over his face.) I'm not saying he's really as fast as Superman all the time, but he's fast enough to give him a good fight (hand to hand) and even get ahead of him every now and then. Hulk does not have that kind of speed.

Forever says:

"Lobo certainly could do the same to Hulk before Hulk could do so (shhh no one mention the possibility that Lobo can move fast enough to keep up with Superman), but this is where we now have our stalemate where Hulk isn’t just surviving Lobo but they are both as much of a threat to each other. At this point of his rage, Hulk can’t really die either. Anything that would work on one for the win during this phase of the curve, would work on the other and it would be a tossup as to who would pull it off. I still say that if Lobo (or Hulk) were floating impotent in space, then the win would have to go to the guy who put them there. Now if it is Hulk floating there, eventually he would die, while Lobo would not, but that would be beside the point. Imagine Lobo floating outside the normal alien traffic lanes for a thousand years. No space bike to save himself. Nothing to do but just float there… while Hulk lives a nice long life and dies in peace. This is my one real remaining argument."

At the top of Hulk's bell (because everywhere else, Lobo wins without question) I don't believe he's unkillable. MUCH harder to kill not only because he's strong enough to fight Lobo off, but also because his durability and healing are even higher than normal, but not unkillable. IF (I say if because I don't know if Lobo could do it, but just pretend) Hulk's head was removed, he'd die right? A broken neck I know he can heal from, but regenerating a whole head and brain, or a whole body seems unlikely and if he could do it, would take so long that the win would go to Lobo. I think Lobo could take off Hulk's head. As I've said, he's damaged Superman's body, and beat up (not just stopped, caused bodily harm) to a hero that could (and had sometime before) survived the explosion of a planet (something Lobo has also done). I personally think that kind of strength would allow him to inflict damage on even a pissed off Hulk.

And about the space thing, we agree that anything that (at that point anyway) anything one can do, the other can do. If it's perfectly even like that then at the very best (for Hulk) it's a stalemate, because he doesn't have anything that would make it more likely that he would do it first. Other than tossing the other person in space though, anything Hulk can do to Lobo, Lobo will be able to come back from, but the reverse is not true. As far as the bell curve goes, I read it: Lobo, stalemate, Lobo.

Forever says:

"This is one reason that it’s good that we have these debates and further illustrate the powers of both individuals. I’m sure you’ve seen how many people you have turned to Lobo’s side. Some people just don’t know these characters and don’t take the time to research and familiarize themselves with them.Again people tend not to spend the time to get to know characters outside of the big names, hell some people don’t even know them that well. And of course there is the huge Marvel bias that we seem to have on here. Most DC fans know the Marvel characters but Marvel fans don’t seem to know much at all about the DC characters outside of the JLA. Even at that, some of that seems to be JLU knowledge from watching TV."

All that is true, and unfortunate.

Rotten gun says:

"i dont think lobo could do as much damage to the characters hulk has in such a short amount of time, based on that its the lobo who should be the underdog. hulk is tearing everyone apart. and he doesn't need to be inraged to have the strength, he already is, at the moment he has a different type of anger, its hate down to the deepest part of him. if he was after lobo like he's after reed or strange etc then lobo is in deep trouble. look how bad he smashed the ghost rider and hulk didn't even have a problem with him. and you cant use the immortal card cause eventually every immortal would beat him. first to get smashed to a pulp wins"

I really don't see why Lobo couldn't have done the same things Hulk did. Lobo could beat BB off panel like Hulk did, and if BB forgot he had actual powers like he did with Hulk, Lobo could beat him on panel too. Lobo could beat Reed the same way Hulk did. He's over-stretched people the same way Hulk did with Reed, and I'm talking about people without stretchy powers. He could beat Hulkbuster Iron Man too. And Hulk didn't smash Ghost Rider (much) because at first Ghost Rider wasn't really attacking him, and then when he had some actual power, he left because Hulk was innocent. Like I told sync, the immortal thing was brought up in another of my posts, look for it. If you don't like the immortal thing though, don't bring up immortals. If you want a "first to get smashed to a pulp wins" contest then you should take away healing factors too (another area where Lobo is superior). Even without immortality and healing, he still wins because he's easily stronger and faster. If you want to lower him some more you can, but if you're trying to make Hulk win, you'll have to find someone else for him to fight.

I think part of what you don't get about Lobo is that he's not a real character. He's not like Superman, Spider-Man or even Hulk. He's like Deadpool, but even worse, like a loony toons character or something. He's fought while he was split in two (vertically and horizontally if it matters), he's fought while he was a pile of limbs on the ground, and without his brains, he's fought enemies as just a skeleton before, he breathes, smells, smokes and talks in space, he blew his brains out just to fight someone in the afterlife (it didn't kill him though so he couldn't), he kills reality warpers as if they were normal people, he grabs intangible spirits, writes his own comics, kills his editors, walks out of world ending explosions, goes to heaven and hell just to kill angels and demons, he kills planets (not just the people, whole planets) for fun. I know Hulk has some of his "out there" stunts too, but he doesn't perform them with the regularity that Lobo does, and he at least pretends to be a real character. Lobo does not. (And I can feel it coming, "All of DC is overpowered, just look at Lobo." No. Shut up and read some DC.)
Post Edited:2007-07-26 15:56:28
Post Edited:2007-07-26 16:00:02

Moderator
#74 Posted by Sparda (15795 posts) - - Show Bio

I remember an interview in Wizard or something (yes, I know I'm vague), where Lobo's creator said he made him as a spoof to Wolverine. I was like "Ahhhhhh yeaaahhh".

#75 Posted by Forever (4332 posts) - - Show Bio

I can't carry this argument on anymore because we both know Lobo would win and there really isn't any good evidence for Hulk having any chance against the immortal.

Buckshot says:

" I wasn't referring to Lobo just attacking and Superman getting hit, because that's what normally happens with anyone who fights him. Superman usually just eats the damage inflicted on him and wins anyway. What I'm talking about when I'm saying Lobo has shown to be too fast for Superman are instances where he actually says things like (paraphrasing) "he's so fast...(which doesn't actually mean he's fast*er* until it's followed by)...no time to react" or when he's actually taking damage and feeling pain but can't move out the way. (That's the same as what I use for examples of Lobo being strong enough to hurt him. When Supes says stuff like "that actually hurt" and is bleeding all over his face.) I'm not saying he's really as fast as Superman all the time, but he's fast enough to give him a good fight (hand to hand) and even get ahead of him every now and then. Hulk does not have that kind of speed. "

There are too many fights where he is fighting someone seemingly as strong as he is and yet Superman does not bleed. Though he fights at a relatively mundane speed for the vast majority of his fights, for him to claim that Lobo is too fast for him seems like so much hyperbole. However Lobo is probably a low level reality warper in that he can do whatever he wants physically and so he is always fast enough, durable enough, and strong enough to win against whoever he faces.

Buckshot says:

"At the top of Hulk's bell (because everywhere else, Lobo wins without question) I don't believe he's unkillable. MUCH harder to kill not only because he's strong enough to fight Lobo off, but also because his durability and healing are even higher than normal, but not unkillable. *IF* (I say if because I don't know if Lobo could do it, but just pretend) Hulk's head was removed, he'd die right? A broken neck I know he can heal from, but regenerating a whole head and brain, or a whole body seems unlikely and if he could do it, would take so long that the win would go to Lobo. I think Lobo could take off Hulk's head. As I've said, he's damaged Superman's body, and beat up (not just stopped, caused bodily harm) to a hero that could (and had sometime before) survived the explosion of a planet (something Lobo has also done). I personally think that kind of strength would allow him to inflict damage on even a pissed off Hulk. And about the space thing, we agree that anything that (at that point anyway) anything one can do, the other can do. If it's perfectly even like that then at the very best (for Hulk) it's a stalemate, because he doesn't have anything that would make it more likely that he would do it first. Other than tossing the other person in space though, *anything* Hulk can do to Lobo, Lobo will be able to come back from, but the reverse is not true. As far as the bell curve goes, I read it: Lobo, stalemate, Lobo."

hmmm, I said unkillable but youre right, that's not strictly true. If you could remove his head I do agree that he would still die. I just dont see his head being removed when he is at that level of power. So for however brief, I think there is a point of genuine stalemate.

So there we have it. I did all I could to argue the losing side but we have to assume that Hulk will either walk into this fight pissed enough or have his power grow fast enough that Lobo cant take advantage of the huge disparity in the beginning of the fight. But eventually Hulk would lose.

#76 Posted by Sparda (15795 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok.....how about the other 9 fights?

#77 Posted by Buckshot (18915 posts) - - Show Bio

You gave it a great effort Forever. You'd make a good Hulk fanboy. (Ok, that was mean. Sorry.)

Sparda says:

"Ok.....how about the other 9 fights?"

Don't care.
Post Edited:2007-07-26 17:56:46

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#78 Posted by Sparda (15795 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, I can always appreciate straight-forwardness.

(Stubborn jack#$%)......

#79 Posted by Jacthripper (2458 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump