#1 Edited by Vance Astro (91404 posts) - - Show Bio

 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 You Are The Punisher

 
-Scenario 
The Kingpin acquires the cosmic cube and in a struggle to get it away from him,The Punisher gets trapped in a dimension opposite of Earth-616 where all the Heroes have become villains.The Punisher after days of literally being hunted gravitates toward the sewer system.Through tunnels he stumbles upon a secret underground hideout where a resistance against the Rouge Heroes was formed.Giving him access to various stolen weapons.The Punisher compiles a list of these heroes he must take out and sets out after them with the help of the Resistance. 
 
Rules 
-The Punisher is equipped with..... 
1.Ant-Man's Helmet 
2.Cap's Shield 
3.Moon Knight's Adamantium Breastplate 
4.Hawkeye's Trick Arrows and Bow 
5.Spider-Man's Web Shooters 
6.The Ebony Blade
7.The Tactigon 
8.Two Pistols,One Gatling Gun (350 rounds),One Rocket Launcher,50 Grenades 
9.One Hunting Knife 
10.The Wrecker's Crowbar  
11.One SPIN Tech Missle
 
-No Time Limit 
-All Targets must be killed.No BFR and no KO. 
-If the Punisher dies or gets KO'd he loses but nobody is allowed to BFR him.  
-The Targets don't know that the Punisher is after them 
-No Morals Apply
 
Targets 
1.The Other Spider-Man (Class 25,Organic Webbing,Stingers) 
2.Master Murdock (Daredevil and 30 Hand Ninjas) 
3.Captain America\Bucky Barnes (Bionic Arm,Armor,One Pistol,One Knife,Cap Shield) 
4.Ronin (Trick Arrows,Nunchucks,Katana,Two Pistols,4 Grenades,One Grenade Launcher) 
5.Taskmaster (Excalibur,SHIELD Projector Weapon,Shield,Trick Arrows,Two Pistols,Billy Clubs)
6.Wondra (Pym Particles,Class 15 until growth then class 50,Energy Projection) 
7.Black Queen\Emma Frost (Diamond Form) 
8.Hawkeye\Bullseye (12 Arrows,20 Shurikens) 
9.Mockingbird (1 Rocket Launcher,Billy Clubs,U.S Agent Shield) 
10.The Current Thunderbolts (Ant-Man,Scourge,The Ghost,Headsman,Paladin,Mister X & Black Widow) 
11.The Immortal Iron Fist (Unarmed) 
12.The Hulk (Pissed off and Rampaging) 
13.Domino (Two Pistols) 
14.Cloud 9 (One Sniper Rifle) 
15.Tigra (unarmed) 
16.Daken (unarmed,natural weaponry) 
17.The Agents of Atlas (Jimmy Woo,Namora,Temugin,Gorilla Man,M-11,) 
18.The Mighty Avengers (Cho,Wasp,U.S Agent) 
19.The New Avengers (Ms.Marvel,Spider-Woman,Cage,Wolverine,Bucky,Jewel,Spider-Man) 
20.The New Warriors (Rage,Night Thrasher,Ultra Girl,The Gauntlet) 
 
Can Punisher Kill them All?
#2 Posted by BatDance (2206 posts) - - Show Bio
Punisher is screwed
 
If Emma still has her telepathy then how the hell does he get past her?
#3 Posted by iLLituracy (13494 posts) - - Show Bio
@BatDance said:
" Punisher is screwed
 
If Emma still has her telepathy then how the hell does he get past her?
"
It says she's in diamond form.
 
The Tactigon and SPIN Tech missile alone could put a dent in this gauntlet. Giving Frank the Tactigon is just asking for trouble, really.
#4 Posted by Grand Ninja (2302 posts) - - Show Bio
@BatDance said:
" Punisher is screwed
 
If Emma still has her telepathy then how the hell does he get past her?
"
antman's helmet.
#5 Posted by hdorman1 (4633 posts) - - Show Bio

the entire scenario relies on the tactigon in my opinion
it could easily overcome some of the more dangerous opponents
caps shield is a nice addition also
i dunno what summoning ants will do in the larger scheme of these fights though..
a good scenario
but he should succumb eventuality 
or slaughter all
hard to say

#6 Posted by Baldy (4914 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm pretty sure Punisher wins this, his gear is good enough.

#7 Posted by Vance Astro (91404 posts) - - Show Bio
@BatDance said:
" Punisher is screwed
 
If Emma still has her telepathy then how the hell does he get past her?
"
Emma can use telepathy in Diamond Form now?
#8 Posted by Vance Astro (91404 posts) - - Show Bio
@iLLituracy said:
 Giving Frank the Tactigon is just asking for trouble, really. "
What do you mean by that?
#9 Posted by iLLituracy (13494 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:
" @iLLituracy said:
 Giving Frank the Tactigon is just asking for trouble, really. "
What do you mean by that? "
The Tactigon is a weapon that can basically provide it's user with any weapon that's needed to get any one job done. Really, all Frank would need is the Tactigon to put down at least 1-9 if Frank starts off on the offensive and kills them off the bat. 
 
Along with this list, does he have basic intel compiled on his targets or is it just a list?
#10 Posted by DedmanWalkin (2896 posts) - - Show Bio

Frank has the Wrecker's Crowbar, how do you stop someone as smart as Frank when he has Thor-level durability and strength? The Tactigon in one hand and the Crowbar in the other and this gauntlet is done. 

#11 Posted by Vance Astro (91404 posts) - - Show Bio
@iLLituracy said:
" @Vance Astro said:
" @iLLituracy said:
 Giving Frank the Tactigon is just asking for trouble, really. "
What do you mean by that? "
The Tactigon is a weapon that can basically provide it's user with any weapon that's needed to get any one job done. Really, all Frank would need is the Tactigon to put down at least 1-9 if Frank starts off on the offensive and kills them off the bat.   Along with this list, does he have basic intel compiled on his targets or is it just a list? "
He doesn't know anymore than he already knew about these characters.He did no research just got his weapons together. 
From What I seen of the Tactigon it's not going to be something that will just let him take everyone here out.When K.I.A was wearing it he didn't take out anyone really powerful.  
Characters like Ms.Marvel,Hulk,Spider-Woman,Spider-Man,Rage,Wondra,Iron Fist etc.still have a chance.
 
@DedmanWalkin said:
" Frank has the Wrecker's Crowbar, how do you stop someone as smart as Frank when he has Thor-level durability and strength? The Tactigon in one hand and the Crowbar in the other and this gauntlet is done.  "
I've seen him use the Crowbar.It's just a weapon.It doesn't increase durability only attack power.Any extra power it provided the Wrecker was from soaking up mystic energy from people like Thor and Beta Ray Bill.It's a melee weapon.Even the Wrecker had to be fast enough to hit his opponent before it could even be a factor.There are plenty of people here who are faster than Frank.
#12 Posted by Son_of_Magnus (15040 posts) - - Show Bio

I think he can do it  Ant-Man's Helmet Cap's Shield Moon Knight's Adamantium Breastplate The Wrecker's Crowbar  are the key here

#13 Posted by Nova`Prime` (4165 posts) - - Show Bio

Man I don't know what the outcome would be, but Frank did already kill the Marvel Universe once.


But I've got to say that pic of Frank is Bad Ass!
#14 Posted by Vance Astro (91404 posts) - - Show Bio
@Son_of_Magnus said:
" I think he can do it  Ant-Man's Helmet Cap's Shield Moon Knight's Adamantium Breastplate The Wrecker's Crowbar  are the key here "
What are they going to do against...Rage,Hulk,Ms.Marvel,Spider-Woman and Wondra?
#15 Posted by Son_of_Magnus (15040 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:
" @Son_of_Magnus said:
" I think he can do it  Ant-Man's Helmet Cap's Shield Moon Knight's Adamantium Breastplate The Wrecker's Crowbar  are the key here "
What are they going to do against...Rage,Hulk,Ms.Marvel,Spider-Woman and Wondra? "
Ant Man's helmet allows him to detect weaknesses like Karnack and have access to a super computer of knowledge. Then he Cap's Shield and MK breast plate to weaken blows combined with his knowledge of rolling with punches to lessen the impact. Then you have the Wrecker's unbreakable crowbar. With him knowing where his opponent's weaknesses are plus his skill with blunt instruments each blow will be felt even to characters with such high durability
#16 Edited by Gothic Storm (826 posts) - - Show Bio

If Moon Knight's adamantium breastplate doesn't cover his backside then he's screwed when Wolvie does some slicin' and dicin' of his own. Remember Wolverine has been trained in every fighting style on Earth.  Unless Ant Man's helmet has a built-in radar it would only take a little ninja sneak to finish him off. Are these solo fights? If not then someone could have his attention and Hulk would simply rampage by and crush the little man. 
 
It would be interesting to see and more than likely some serious teamwork would be involved.

#17 Posted by Winduizcool (733 posts) - - Show Bio
@Nova`Prime` said:
" Man I don't know what the outcome would be, but Frank did already kill the Marvel Universe once.

But I've got to say that pic of Frank is Bad Ass! "
Wow. That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Like all of those people would own Punisher. 
#18 Posted by Vance Astro (91404 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gothic Storm said:
" If Moon Knight's adamantium breastplate doesn't cover his backside then he's screwed when Wolvie does some slicin' and dicin' of his own. Remember Wolverine has been trained in every fighting style on Earth.  Unless Ant Man's helmet has a built-in radar it would only take a little ninja sneak to finish him off. Are these solo fights? If not then someone could have his attention and Hulk would simply rampage by and crush the little man.   It would be interesting to see and more than likely some serious teamwork would be involved. "
Well Frank has fought Wolverine with weaker weapons than what he has now and held his own so I think with the tactigon and other weapons he has he should be able to take Wolverine out.Last time he had a Rocket Launcher against Wolverine...he ended up with the bottom half of his adamantium skeleton hanging out.
#19 Edited by Son_of_Magnus (15040 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gothic Storm said:

" If Moon Knight's adamantium breastplate doesn't cover his backside then he's screwed when Wolvie does some slicin' and dicin' of his own. Remember Wolverine has been trained in every fighting style on Earth.  Unless Ant Man's helmet has a built-in radar it would only take a little ninja sneak to finish him off. Are these solo fights? If not then someone could have his attention and Hulk would simply rampage by and crush the little man.   It would be interesting to see and more than likely some serious teamwork would be involved. "

Breastplates cover the whole midsection back chest belly and all
#20 Posted by Vance Astro (91404 posts) - - Show Bio
@Son_of_Magnus said:
" @Gothic Storm said:

" If Moon Knight's adamantium breastplate doesn't cover his backside then he's screwed when Wolvie does some slicin' and dicin' of his own. Remember Wolverine has been trained in every fighting style on Earth.  Unless Ant Man's helmet has a built-in radar it would only take a little ninja sneak to finish him off. Are these solo fights? If not then someone could have his attention and Hulk would simply rampage by and crush the little man.   It would be interesting to see and more than likely some serious teamwork would be involved. "

Breastplates cover the whole midsection back chest belly and all "
Not really.
#21 Posted by Son_of_Magnus (15040 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:
" @Son_of_Magnus said:
" @Gothic Storm said:

" If Moon Knight's adamantium breastplate doesn't cover his backside then he's screwed when Wolvie does some slicin' and dicin' of his own. Remember Wolverine has been trained in every fighting style on Earth.  Unless Ant Man's helmet has a built-in radar it would only take a little ninja sneak to finish him off. Are these solo fights? If not then someone could have his attention and Hulk would simply rampage by and crush the little man.   It would be interesting to see and more than likely some serious teamwork would be involved. "

Breastplates cover the whole midsection back chest belly and all "
Not really. "

 =P
#22 Posted by Vance Astro (91404 posts) - - Show Bio

Damnit SOM....

#23 Posted by Walker696 (980 posts) - - Show Bio

Thing about this whole set up is if any of the other Hero's/villains find out Punisher is killing them then he is screwed. People often think about how good the Frank is but don't count out folks like Spider-man and Ronin, They take on heavy hitters all the time. Until I truly see Frank take out some heavy hitters on his own, no help and no special all mighty weapons or upgrades. Honestly I think he stops at Cap and Bucky simply because they both are a great team and know how to work together to take out more powerful foes. Giving him strong weapons gives him a better chance but that doesn't mean he will win, he has some stiff competition and honestly the wounds will get him eventually. 
 
But I did have one question how much knowledge and training does he have with his new weapons because he will be going up against folks who for the most part have perfected their styles, that plays a major part in this, no point in having Cap's shield if you knock ya self out with it when you throw it lol.

#24 Posted by Son_of_Magnus (15040 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:

" Damnit SOM.... "

You get good at this stuff when your addicted to mmorpg lmao
#25 Posted by Vance Astro (91404 posts) - - Show Bio
@Walker696 said:
" Thing about this whole set up is if any of the other Hero's/villains find out Punisher is killing them then he is screwed. People often think about how good the Frank is but don't count out folks like Spider-man and Ronin, They take on heavy hitters all the time. Until I truly see Frank take out some heavy hitters on his own, no help and no special all mighty weapons or upgrades. Honestly I think he stops at Cap and Bucky simply because they both are a great team and know how to work together to take out more powerful foes. Giving him strong weapons gives him a better chance but that doesn't mean he will win, he has some stiff competition and honestly the wounds will get him eventually.   But I did have one question how much knowledge and training does he have with his new weapons because he will be going up against folks who for the most part have perfected their styles, that plays a major part in this, no point in having Cap's shield if you knock ya self out with it when you throw it lol. "
What do you mean heavy hitters? 
First of all Frank has beaten Spider-Man...with a pistol.No almighty anything. 
Second of all what heavy hitters has Ronin beaten? And if you go back to his Hawkeye days..any heavy hitter (If you mean superhumans) Hawkeye took out was because of his trick arrows. 
Take a look at the weapons Frank has for a moment.You really think Bucky can beat Frank with the Tactigon? Trick Arrows? His own Cap shield? Frank held back on Bucky the last time the fought and he barely won there.Frank gave him the win actually. 
The Punisher is a weapons master.How long did he train before he used any of those weapons Rampage made for him? He doesn't need to train.He's been Cap before so he knows very well how to use the shield.
#26 Posted by CATMANEXE--defunct (17052 posts) - - Show Bio

awesome thread. what needs to be iterated...

@iLLituracy said:

" @BatDance said:
" Punisher is screwed
 
If Emma still has her telepathy then how the hell does he get past her?
"
It says she's in diamond form.  The Tactigon and SPIN Tech missile alone could put a dent in this gauntlet. Giving Frank the Tactigon is just asking for trouble, really. "
if one hasnt read the Avengers The Initiative arc where an almost untrained rookie got ahold of this and what he
capable of they should first. As well as Franks extremely long run against not only supers but reanimated hell
powered upgraded supers using a similar weapons cache in the DR series should be read as well before
thinking about this match. Just skimming but while alot of these opponents could win, so could Frank and 
taking that one puts him up his notch. especially the Tactigon, thats to be feared. I stopped however
at 10, particularly because of Ghosts intangibility and having teammates around competent enough
to hold Frank off and allow his kill shot, though im not entirely sure.
#27 Posted by iLLituracy (13494 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:
" @iLLituracy said:
" @Vance Astro said:
" @iLLituracy said:
 Giving Frank the Tactigon is just asking for trouble, really. "
What do you mean by that? "
The Tactigon is a weapon that can basically provide it's user with any weapon that's needed to get any one job done. Really, all Frank would need is the Tactigon to put down at least 1-9 if Frank starts off on the offensive and kills them off the bat.   Along with this list, does he have basic intel compiled on his targets or is it just a list? "
He doesn't know anymore than he already knew about these characters.He did no research just got his weapons together. 
From What I seen of the Tactigon it's not going to be something that will just let him take everyone here out.When K.I.A was wearing it he didn't take out anyone really powerful.  
Characters like Ms.Marvel,Hulk,Spider-Woman,Spider-Man,Rage,Wondra,Iron Fist etc.still have a chance.
KIA didn't take out anyone powerful, no. But he wasn't really defeated with it on, either. His splintered psyche was exploited by Cloud 9. The Mighty Avengers roster couldn't seem to put a dent in him, the Tactigon even began forming an armor around KIA while facing off against a good number of the Initiative, Mighty Avengers and New Warriors.
 
When Armory had the Tactigon, she managed to one-shot Ultimo who was said to have been unbreakable [he's taken shots from Iron Man and Thor off the top of my head to no avail]. Actually, when I think about it, I can't think of an instance where Ultimo was just downright beaten or one-shotted, most of his appearances he had to be tricked into defeat.
 
Mind you, the Tactigon was in the hands of two relatively novice users. Armory was just a teenage girl and KIA, while peak-human for his age, was still very much inexperienced when it came to battle. Frank with all of his skills, knowledge of weaponry, and knowledge of some of his targets--paired with his tactical prowess, marksmanship and physical ability could down them with the Tactigon. 

But, yeah, if Punisher is on the attack, that gives the Tactigon enough time to assess it's targets and adapt into weapons and/or defenses against them. If his enemies don't see him coming, there's a good chance he'll take all of these. The only time I see him having trouble is with large groups, and that's if they can get past the Tactigon's defenses [which was able to deflect blasts from Iron Man]. But up until now, the Tactigon has shown no sort of weakness other than it's user, and Frank alone is formidable enough.
#28 Posted by Vance Astro (91404 posts) - - Show Bio
@iLLituracy said: 
KIA didn't take out anyone powerful, no. But he wasn't really defeated with it on, either. His splintered psyche was exploited by Cloud 9. The Mighty Avengers roster couldn't seem to put a dent in him, the Tactigon even began forming an armor around KIA while facing off against a good number of the Initiative, Mighty Avengers and New Warriors.  When Armory had the Tactigon, she managed to one-shot Ultimo who was said to have been unbreakable [he's taken shots from Iron Man and Thor off the top of my head to no avail]. Actually, when I think about it, I can't think of an instance where Ultimo was just downright beaten or one-shotted, most of his appearances he had to be tricked into defeat.  Mind you, the Tactigon was in the hands of two relatively novice users. Armory was just a teenage girl and KIA, while peak-human for his age, was still very much inexperienced when it came to battle. Frank with all of his skills, knowledge of weaponry, and knowledge of some of his targets--paired with his tactical prowess, marksmanship and physical ability could down them with the Tactigon.  But, yeah, if Punisher is on the attack, that gives the Tactigon enough time to assess it's targets and adapt into weapons and/or defenses against them. If his enemies don't see him coming, there's a good chance he'll take all of these. The only time I see him having trouble is with large groups, and that's if they can get past the Tactigon's defenses [which was able to deflect blasts from Iron Man]. But up until now, the Tactigon has shown no sort of weakness other than it's user, and Frank alone is formidable enough. "
 
1.The Mighty Avengers roster didn't seem to put a dent in him because none of them actually got any hits off.They only got hit.The only time any of them put their hands on him is when they all jumped on him.They weren't trying to hurt him either.
2.The Initiative is full of street levelers.The only threats he fought was The Gauntlet,Thor Girl,Rage,Justice,Crusader and War Machine.Most of which he didn't have an actual fight with he just blasted them before they could react.He only actually fought The Gauntlet and War Machine. 
3.Even with Frank's skills in combat I still see several characters here who could take him out.He has to fight some of these characters as a team.He has a good chance of winning but the chances are equally good that he doesn't win.
#29 Posted by iLLituracy (13494 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:

1.The Mighty Avengers roster didn't seem to put a dent in him because none of them actually got any hits off.They only got hit.The only time any of them put their hands on him is when they all jumped on him.They weren't trying to hurt him either.

Of course they got hits off. The first order Iron Man gave when they arrived was for Ms. Marvel to engage him hand to hand. Wonder Man was seen picking up a tree one panel, a few pages later he's seen getting knocked on his ass along with Ms. Marvel. Iron Man was shooting at him with repulsor rays, which were ineffective, which isn't all that surprising seeing as how a powerful blast from War Machine was ineffective, as well. They were trying to hurt him, he was crazy, he'd killed a bunch of cadets by this point, they were trying to take him down by any means--which is why they erased his brain in the end.

2.The Initiative is full of street levelers.The only threats he fought was The Gauntlet,Thor Girl,Rage,Justice,Crusader and War Machine.Most of which he didn't have an actual fight with he just blasted them before they could react.He only actually fought The Gauntlet and War Machine. 

The first people he encounters after he breaks out is Dragon Lord, Geiger, Crusader, Red Nine, Geldoff, Ant-Man, Melee and Diamondback. They got their attacks off first, Dragon Lord was already summoning a dragon, Geldoff was already throwing one of his projectiles, Diamondback was already tossing her diamond thingies, but it's safe to say that they were already on the offensive, weren't taken by surprise and while the fight happened off panel, he decimated the whole team.
 
Melee, Ant-Man and maybe Red Nine [who has superhuman strength, flight, protective fields and projectile blasts] and Geldoff weren't real threats. But Geiger was mimicking Samson's abilities, Crusader has a ring made of Cosmic Cube fragments and the ability to warp reality in an extended radius, Dragon Lord's Dragon is a formidable creature. All of these should have been threats, but he managed to kill/maim/KO a number of these guys easy before continuing on to attack Hank Pym [who was an impostor that could shrink far past Pym's limit to avoid the attack].
 
The next people he encounters is the Shadow Initiative after trying to kill Gyrich and successfully killing a bunch of SHIELD Agents protecting him with energy tendrils. He rips off Constrictor's arms, prompting Bengal to retreat with Constrictor and Mutant Zero to extract Gyrich while he was killing a fellow clone.
 
He goes on to encounter Gauntlet who's weapon was possessing his body. After blasting Gauntlet through a wall he encounters a number of seasoned Avengers and cadets waiting for him outside. Stingray, Gargoyle, Triathlon are the biggest threats off the top of my head. They fire on him with missiles and rifles, but the Tactigon responds by forming an armor around him while picking off each one individually [save for some of the cadets, the ones that were actually targets]. Gauntlet attacks again, the Tactigon perceives the weakness of the alien weapon that possessed Joseph Green as Joseph Green himself. Thus, the Tactigon comes up with a drug that awakens Joseph from his coma to kill him all over again.
 
The next person he encounters after jumping into the Negative Zone was War Machine, this is one of the best showings of what the Tactigon can do because War Machine wasn't taken by surprise. He had time to ready his whole arsenal and open fire on KIA beforehand and hit him with every gun he had. The Tactigon merely formed a larger armor around him, then created a gigantic gun from his arm and blew War Machine away. War Machine a few pages later is asked if he can stand and admits it's about all he can do, and couldn't even breathe inside his own suit.
 






By this issue, it's revealed that he defeated sixty superhumans on base [I think Gyrich says all of them were spanked, but there are some that went to MVP's home to fight in another encounter against KIA].
 
KIA, following Komodo, Hardball and Cloud 9 encounters the New Warriors. Vance Astro is the first to attack, only to be hit by psionic feedback and temporarily paralyzed, he's seen laid out grumbling, bleeding and unresponsive. Another instance in which the adaption to each attacker's abilities is shown. Slapstick follows after Vance and KIA is able to analyze what exactly Slapstick is made out of, hits him with a counter charge and disassembles him into a puddle of goo. 
 
When Hardball and Komodo attack him, the Tactigon turns into some sort of animal, bites Komodo, and injects her with a poison that works faster than her healing factor can burn out.and it would kill her within 56 seconds. He said that it was the fastest acting poison in this universe.  The rest of the fights KIA has been in is detailed above.

3.Even with Frank's skills in combat I still see several characters here who could take him out.He has to fight some of these characters as a team.He has a good chance of winning but the chances are equally good that he doesn't win.

The Tactigon was described as quite possibly the most powerful weapon in the universe. It has a mind of it's own, thus it can strategically come up with different ways to take down one opponent, can form over it's user to become an armor among other things. His chances of winning without the Tactigon were there, but with it they grow exponentially, IMO. The only weakness the Tactigon has is it's user, and with KIA piloting it, it was able to take out most of the Initiative [with a bunch of heavy hitters and people versatile enough to do damage to anyone with the Tactigon had it not been as responsive to threats as it was].
#30 Posted by Gothic Storm (826 posts) - - Show Bio

The plan for the heroes would be to separate him from the Tactigon...or vice versa. It would take teamwork and would be tough, but it could be done... with some clever non-cheesy writing of course. *remembers the scene in Jurassic Park 2 where the T-Rexes rip the guy in two... making that little "Tink!" noise as his spine is separated*

#31 Posted by iLLituracy (13494 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gothic Storm said:
" The plan for the heroes would be to separate him from the Tactigon...or vice versa. It would take teamwork and would be tough, but it could be done... with some clever non-cheesy writing of course. *remembers the scene in Jurassic Park 2 where the T-Rexes rip the guy in two... making that little "Tink!" noise as his spine is separated* "
The Tactigon is usually removed via surgery, I think. Otherwise, if the user and the Tactigon don't want to be separated, then it'll come up with ways to be attached such as blasting the person trying to detach it from Frank or forming a shield. It'll be a serious task, IMO. Maybe if a speedster attacked before the Tactigon could respond and lopped off Frank's arm, but I dunno'. There's too many variables with the Tactigon.
#32 Posted by Gothic Storm (826 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm curious why Punisher would need to carry all that other junk if this Tactigon thing is so great? In my opinion they would just slow him down.

#33 Posted by Vance Astro (91404 posts) - - Show Bio
@iLLituracy said:
" @Vance Astro said:

1.The Mighty Avengers roster didn't seem to put a dent in him because none of them actually got any hits off.They only got hit.The only time any of them put their hands on him is when they all jumped on him.They weren't trying to hurt him either.

Of course they got hits off. The first order Iron Man gave when they arrived was for Ms. Marvel to engage him hand to hand. Wonder Man was seen picking up a tree one panel, a few pages later he's seen getting knocked on his ass along with Ms. Marvel. Iron Man was shooting at him with repulsor rays, which were ineffective, which isn't all that surprising seeing as how a powerful blast from War Machine was ineffective, as well. They were trying to hurt him, he was crazy, he'd killed a bunch of cadets by this point, they were trying to take him down by any means--which is why they erased his brain in the end.

2.The Initiative is full of street levelers.The only threats he fought was The Gauntlet,Thor Girl,Rage,Justice,Crusader and War Machine.Most of which he didn't have an actual fight with he just blasted them before they could react.He only actually fought The Gauntlet and War Machine. 

The first people he encounters after he breaks out is Dragon Lord, Geiger, Crusader, Red Nine, Geldoff, Ant-Man, Melee and Diamondback. They got their attacks off first, Dragon Lord was already summoning a dragon, Geldoff was already throwing one of his projectiles, Diamondback was already tossing her diamond thingies, but it's safe to say that they were already on the offensive, weren't taken by surprise and while the fight happened off panel, he decimated the whole team.
 
Melee, Ant-Man and maybe Red Nine [who has superhuman strength, flight, protective fields and projectile blasts] and Geldoff weren't real threats. But Geiger was mimicking Samson's abilities, Crusader has a ring made of Cosmic Cube fragments and the ability to warp reality in an extended radius, Dragon Lord's Dragon is a formidable creature. All of these should have been threats, but he managed to kill/maim/KO a number of these guys easy before continuing on to attack Hank Pym [who was an impostor that could shrink far past Pym's limit to avoid the attack].
 
The next people he encounters is the Shadow Initiative after trying to kill Gyrich and successfully killing a bunch of SHIELD Agents protecting him with energy tendrils. He rips off Constrictor's arms, prompting Bengal to retreat with Constrictor and Mutant Zero to extract Gyrich while he was killing a fellow clone.
 
He goes on to encounter Gauntlet who's weapon was possessing his body. After blasting Gauntlet through a wall he encounters a number of seasoned Avengers and cadets waiting for him outside. Stingray, Gargoyle, Triathlon are the biggest threats off the top of my head. They fire on him with missiles and rifles, but the Tactigon responds by forming an armor around him while picking off each one individually [save for some of the cadets, the ones that were actually targets]. Gauntlet attacks again, the Tactigon perceives the weakness of the alien weapon that possessed Joseph Green as Joseph Green himself. Thus, the Tactigon comes up with a drug that awakens Joseph from his coma to kill him all over again.
 
The next person he encounters after jumping into the Negative Zone was War Machine, this is one of the best showings of what the Tactigon can do because War Machine wasn't taken by surprise. He had time to ready his whole arsenal and open fire on KIA beforehand and hit him with every gun he had. The Tactigon merely formed a larger armor around him, then created a gigantic gun from his arm and blew War Machine away. War Machine a few pages later is asked if he can stand and admits it's about all he can do, and couldn't even breathe inside his own suit.
 






By this issue, it's revealed that he defeated sixty superhumans on base [I think Gyrich says all of them were spanked, but there are some that went to MVP's home to fight in another encounter against KIA].
 
KIA, following Komodo, Hardball and Cloud 9 encounters the New Warriors. Vance Astro is the first to attack, only to be hit by psionic feedback and temporarily paralyzed, he's seen laid out grumbling, bleeding and unresponsive. Another instance in which the adaption to each attacker's abilities is shown. Slapstick follows after Vance and KIA is able to analyze what exactly Slapstick is made out of, hits him with a counter charge and disassembles him into a puddle of goo. 
 
When Hardball and Komodo attack him, the Tactigon turns into some sort of animal, bites Komodo, and injects her with a poison that works faster than her healing factor can burn out.and it would kill her within 56 seconds. He said that it was the fastest acting poison in this universe.  The rest of the fights KIA has been in is detailed above.

3.Even with Frank's skills in combat I still see several characters here who could take him out.He has to fight some of these characters as a team.He has a good chance of winning but the chances are equally good that he doesn't win.

The Tactigon was described as quite possibly the most powerful weapon in the universe. It has a mind of it's own, thus it can strategically come up with different ways to take down one opponent, can form over it's user to become an armor among other things. His chances of winning without the Tactigon were there, but with it they grow exponentially, IMO. The only weakness the Tactigon has is it's user, and with KIA piloting it, it was able to take out most of the Initiative [with a bunch of heavy hitters and people versatile enough to do damage to anyone with the Tactigon had it not been as responsive to threats as it was]. "
 
 
Where does it show that they actually hit him? Just because Iron Man told Ms.Marvel to engage K.I.A hand to hand doesn't mean that she actually laid a hand on him or Wonder Man.All we saw is them get hit.What the Mighty Avengers did against K.I.A wasn't anywhere near the best they had.Why do you think Sentry wasn't there.They were trying to make the tactigon look good before they decommissioned it and it was out of the book until they can come up with another reason for it to appear again.(Don't know why they don't just bring back Armory).There wasn't a single Mighty Avenger that actually used the extent of their abilities against KIA.Iron Man was the only one who tried more than engaging him h2h and even a simple repulsor isn't much. 
 
You don't have to run down the entire fight to me.I have the comics and I read them.Basically the whole K.I.A plot was set up to make the tactigon look good.This is why I didn't put Extremis Iron Man in this battle because it would have been overkill.First off the first team he encounters is the team that could barely take Taskmaster in training.The Second team (The Shadow Initiative) he encounters and SHIELD are all street levelers.We don't know how K.I.A handled that first team we just seem them taken out.Why do you think they didn't show hoe he took the Crusader out? Because logically he couldn't have taken a reality warper in a room full of other people he has to fight.Why do you think he didn't actually fight Thor Girl? Because logically she has more than enough in her arsenal to take him out? Why do you think the fight was damn near over when the Mighty Avengers got there? Because if they had given him their best it would have been too easy. 
 
Stingray,Gargoyle and Triathlon are canon fodder to someone with K.I.A's long range capability.How are they threats? 
He did own War Machine pretty badly but without Rhodey knowing what he was capable he was open for it.He wouldn't have poured out all his ammo had he known the Tactigon could do that.He would have tried using some type of strategy. 
My point is..the only actually powerful superhumans\heavy hitters that K.I.A fought were still standing when the fight was over.In which case i'm still inclined to believe there are characters and teams here who could still take Frank down while in control of the tactigon.The only actually powerful characters he took down was Thor Girl who got blasted when she wasn't prepared it.
#34 Posted by iLLituracy (13494 posts) - - Show Bio

  @Vance Astro said:

" Where does it show that they actually hit him? Just because Iron Man told Ms.Marvel to engage K.I.A hand to hand doesn't mean that she actually laid a hand on him or Wonder Man.All we saw is them get hit.What the Mighty Avengers did against K.I.A wasn't anywhere near the best they had.


 Mighty Avengers attacking.
Ms. Marvel is clearly attacking him and Wonder Man is preparing to hit him with a tree. In the following pages, KIA saws through the tree as Wonder Man tries to hit him with it the following page ensues.

Was it the best the Mighty Avengers had? No, nor was it all of the Mighty Avengers, this is something we agree on, but Carol's no slouch when it comes to hand-to-hand and is no slouch when it comes to strength or endurance, neither is Simon, but they were both knocked on their asses when they faced the Tactigon, as was Iron Man and War Machine.

Why do you think Sentry wasn't there.

Sentry probably would have thrown KIA Tactigon and all into the sun. lol.

They were trying to make the tactigon look good before they decommissioned it and it was out of the book until they can come up with another reason for it to appear again.(Don't know why they don't just bring back Armory).

I don't disagree, the whole arc was showcasing the Tactigon, but nothing was really inconsistent with previous appearances. In it's first appearance, it blew a hole through something that was said to be unbreakable. Something that Iron Man nor Thor could put a dent in.
 

There wasn't a single Mighty Avenger that actually used the extent of their abilities against KIA.Iron Man was the only one who tried more than engaging him h2h and even a simple repulsor isn't much.

They weren't trying their hardest, no. They could have done more. Tony was trying to hack it, as well via Extremis but couldn't. Simon only got that one attack off, as did Ms. Marvel. The fight seemed to pass by rather quickly, but the Mighty Avengers were getting handled.

You don't have to run down the entire fight to me.I have the comics and I read them.Basically the whole K.I.A plot was set up to make the tactigon look good.This is why I didn't put Extremis Iron Man in this battle because it would have been overkill.First off the first team he encounters is the team that could barely take Taskmaster in training.

It wasn't so much for you as it was for anyone who wanted to throw input into the discussion. I usually detail stuff so I don't really have to go back and look at the book that I'm citing information from to recall, because I have a tendency to lose my books.
 
I was under the impression that Iron Man had Extremis at the time the Mighty Avengers were operating, I thought that's why he could hack into--or try to hack into the Tactigon. Did he not have Extremis?
 
That training session was straight hand-to-hand, the only ones that should have stood any chance was Melee, who supposedly has mastered all martial arts in the world and Ant-Man who's actually had SHIELD training. The only training session that should matter is the one KIA attacked in, the actual field exercise, of course a bunch of rookies aren't going to best Taskmaster. They were biding time against giant robots in the training facility for Dragon Lord to conjure up one of his dragons, which was ready to be summoned by the time KIA attacked them.

The Second team (The Shadow Initiative) he encounters and SHIELD are all street levelers.

I don't doubt it. I mentioned it for reference and capabilities such as solid light constructs. 

We don't know how K.I.A handled that first team we just seem them taken out.Why do you think they didn't show hoe he took the Crusader out? Because logically he couldn't have taken a reality warper in a room full of other people he has to fight.

It wasn't shown due to time constraint. Avengers: The Initiative was a book that was plagued with fitting a lot of event into little time. They even had to cut down on word-bubbles. They couldn't realistically shown every fight. Crusader is hardly unbeatable, both people who carried that Cosmic Cube ring died. It would have been easy for him to take off Crusader's arm. In fact, that was probably the first thing the Tactigon did, registered him as the most probable to take it out and subdued that threat by taking off his arm.
 
The Tactigon's reaction time, especially when it's displayed later when KIA faces Stingray, Triathlon and company is seen. He has no trouble taking out multiple targets.

Why do you think he didn't actually fight Thor Girl? Because logically she has more than enough in her arsenal to take him out?

Didn't he fight Thor Girl? It wasn't so much a fight as her jumping in front of Trauma and telling KIA that to get to Trauma she has to get through her. She got blasted, and for all her durability and being on equal footing with Asgardians, she went down rather hard after one hit. While she does have a lot in her arsenal, I don't think Tarene could have done it alone and I don't think logically she could take a shot from a weapon that's been shown to punch through unbreakable material.

Why do you think the fight was damn near over when the Mighty Avengers got there? Because if they had given him their best it would have been too easy.

Time restraint, realistically. The Tactigon has been built up to be one of the most--if not--the most powerful weapon in the universe, being able to accomplish things that the Mighty Avengers had trouble doing. The Tactigon isn't just some armament, it's alive, it responds to it's enemy combatants by hitting them with something they won't get up from. This varies from how reluctant the user is to killing the person or just disabling them, among other things. I'm not saying that the Mighty Avengers wouldn't have been able to take out some teenager with that weapon on his arm, but it wouldn't have been easy, even at their hardest, because if KIA wanted them dead, I'm sure he could have killed each of them given the shots he had at the Mighty Avengers.

Stingray,Gargoyle and Triathlon are canon fodder to someone with K.I.A's long range capability.How are they threats?

Stingray and Gargoyle are seasoned vets in what they do. Triathalon is three times peak human and also seasoned and serving Avenger for a time, yet they still were managed to get tagged.

He did own War Machine pretty badly but without Rhodey knowing what he was capable he was open for it.He wouldn't have poured out all his ammo had he known the Tactigon could do that.He would have tried using some type of strategy.

I don't think that there was anything Rhodey could have done against him before he got tagged. I highly doubt that Rhodey had enough time to do what needed to be done, but it showed that even that much power as War Machine put on KIA was ineffective. The Tactigon is much faster in attaining and learning a weakness than War Machine could have possibly assessed himself with such little prep time. But do the people Frank is gunning for know about what the Tactigon can do?

My point is..the only actually powerful superhumans\heavy hitters that K.I.A fought were still standing when the fight was over.In which case i'm still inclined to believe there are characters and teams here who could still take Frank down while in control of the tactigon.The only actually powerful characters he took down was Thor Girl who got blasted when she wasn't prepared it. "

She was poised and ready for it. The thing that I'm not sure about is whether that was really Thor Girl or her Skrull impersonator. He took out Vance, who is a powerful psychokinetic, he took out War Machine, who admitted he could barely stand afterward and his suit was so damaged he couldn't breathe inside of it.
#35 Posted by SgtRYNO (168 posts) - - Show Bio
@Winduizcool: if you read the storyline its actually pretty cool.
#36 Posted by Vance Astro (91404 posts) - - Show Bio
@iLLituracy said:
"   @Vance Astro said:

" Where does it show that they actually hit him? Just because Iron Man told Ms.Marvel to engage K.I.A hand to hand doesn't mean that she actually laid a hand on him or Wonder Man.All we saw is them get hit.What the Mighty Avengers did against K.I.A wasn't anywhere near the best they had.


 Mighty Avengers attacking.
Ms. Marvel is clearly attacking him and Wonder Man is preparing to hit him with a tree. In the following pages, KIA saws through the tree as Wonder Man tries to hit him with it the following page ensues.

Was it the best the Mighty Avengers had? No, nor was it all of the Mighty Avengers, this is something we agree on, but Carol's no slouch when it comes to hand-to-hand and is no slouch when it comes to strength or endurance, neither is Simon, but they were both knocked on their asses when they faced the Tactigon, as was Iron Man and War Machine.

Why do you think Sentry wasn't there.

Sentry probably would have thrown KIA Tactigon and all into the sun. lol.

They were trying to make the tactigon look good before they decommissioned it and it was out of the book until they can come up with another reason for it to appear again.(Don't know why they don't just bring back Armory).

I don't disagree, the whole arc was showcasing the Tactigon, but nothing was really inconsistent with previous appearances. In it's first appearance, it blew a hole through something that was said to be unbreakable. Something that Iron Man nor Thor could put a dent in.
 

There wasn't a single Mighty Avenger that actually used the extent of their abilities against KIA.Iron Man was the only one who tried more than engaging him h2h and even a simple repulsor isn't much.

They weren't trying their hardest, no. They could have done more. Tony was trying to hack it, as well via Extremis but couldn't. Simon only got that one attack off, as did Ms. Marvel. The fight seemed to pass by rather quickly, but the Mighty Avengers were getting handled.

You don't have to run down the entire fight to me.I have the comics and I read them.Basically the whole K.I.A plot was set up to make the tactigon look good.This is why I didn't put Extremis Iron Man in this battle because it would have been overkill.First off the first team he encounters is the team that could barely take Taskmaster in training.

It wasn't so much for you as it was for anyone who wanted to throw input into the discussion. I usually detail stuff so I don't really have to go back and look at the book that I'm citing information from to recall, because I have a tendency to lose my books.
 
I was under the impression that Iron Man had Extremis at the time the Mighty Avengers were operating, I thought that's why he could hack into--or try to hack into the Tactigon. Did he not have Extremis?
 
That training session was straight hand-to-hand, the only ones that should have stood any chance was Melee, who supposedly has mastered all martial arts in the world and Ant-Man who's actually had SHIELD training. The only training session that should matter is the one KIA attacked in, the actual field exercise, of course a bunch of rookies aren't going to best Taskmaster. They were biding time against giant robots in the training facility for Dragon Lord to conjure up one of his dragons, which was ready to be summoned by the time KIA attacked them.

The Second team (The Shadow Initiative) he encounters and SHIELD are all street levelers.

I don't doubt it. I mentioned it for reference and capabilities such as solid light constructs. 

We don't know how K.I.A handled that first team we just seem them taken out.Why do you think they didn't show hoe he took the Crusader out? Because logically he couldn't have taken a reality warper in a room full of other people he has to fight.

It wasn't shown due to time constraint. Avengers: The Initiative was a book that was plagued with fitting a lot of event into little time. They even had to cut down on word-bubbles. They couldn't realistically shown every fight. Crusader is hardly unbeatable, both people who carried that Cosmic Cube ring died. It would have been easy for him to take off Crusader's arm. In fact, that was probably the first thing the Tactigon did, registered him as the most probable to take it out and subdued that threat by taking off his arm.
 
The Tactigon's reaction time, especially when it's displayed later when KIA faces Stingray, Triathlon and company is seen. He has no trouble taking out multiple targets.

Why do you think he didn't actually fight Thor Girl? Because logically she has more than enough in her arsenal to take him out?

Didn't he fight Thor Girl? It wasn't so much a fight as her jumping in front of Trauma and telling KIA that to get to Trauma she has to get through her. She got blasted, and for all her durability and being on equal footing with Asgardians, she went down rather hard after one hit. While she does have a lot in her arsenal, I don't think Tarene could have done it alone and I don't think logically she could take a shot from a weapon that's been shown to punch through unbreakable material.

Why do you think the fight was damn near over when the Mighty Avengers got there? Because if they had given him their best it would have been too easy.

Time restraint, realistically. The Tactigon has been built up to be one of the most--if not--the most powerful weapon in the universe, being able to accomplish things that the Mighty Avengers had trouble doing. The Tactigon isn't just some armament, it's alive, it responds to it's enemy combatants by hitting them with something they won't get up from. This varies from how reluctant the user is to killing the person or just disabling them, among other things. I'm not saying that the Mighty Avengers wouldn't have been able to take out some teenager with that weapon on his arm, but it wouldn't have been easy, even at their hardest, because if KIA wanted them dead, I'm sure he could have killed each of them given the shots he had at the Mighty Avengers.

Stingray,Gargoyle and Triathlon are canon fodder to someone with K.I.A's long range capability.How are they threats?

Stingray and Gargoyle are seasoned vets in what they do. Triathalon is three times peak human and also seasoned and serving Avenger for a time, yet they still were managed to get tagged.

He did own War Machine pretty badly but without Rhodey knowing what he was capable he was open for it.He wouldn't have poured out all his ammo had he known the Tactigon could do that.He would have tried using some type of strategy.

I don't think that there was anything Rhodey could have done against him before he got tagged. I highly doubt that Rhodey had enough time to do what needed to be done, but it showed that even that much power as War Machine put on KIA was ineffective. The Tactigon is much faster in attaining and learning a weakness than War Machine could have possibly assessed himself with such little prep time. But do the people Frank is gunning for know about what the Tactigon can do?

My point is..the only actually powerful superhumans\heavy hitters that K.I.A fought were still standing when the fight was over.In which case i'm still inclined to believe there are characters and teams here who could still take Frank down while in control of the tactigon.The only actually powerful characters he took down was Thor Girl who got blasted when she wasn't prepared it. "

She was poised and ready for it. The thing that I'm not sure about is whether that was really Thor Girl or her Skrull impersonator. He took out Vance, who is a powerful psychokinetic, he took out War Machine, who admitted he could barely stand afterward and his suit was so damaged he couldn't breathe inside of it. "
 
 
Ok here we go.... 
 
 The scans show exactly what I said.The Mighty Avengers didn't hit K.I.A.None of them.I never said they weren't attacking him.It's clear as day they are.Carol is no slouch in h2h combat but as far as we know all K.I.A did was block her first punch and then hit her with his own.Which I don't doubt was for the plot considering her speed,strength and skill. 
 
I said I didn't put Extremis Iron Man in this fight because it would have been overkill.I didn't say that Iron Man didn't have Extremis during the fight with K.I.A,my point was that what he showed against K.I.A was nowhere near what he could have really done. 
 
I'm aware that none of the Initiative members in the training session could have handled Taskmaster hand to hand but that's my point.There was nobody in there with any durability.If I have something attached to me that can drop Ultimo and I come into  a room full of street levelers and low level superhumans,I'm going to easily clear the room.Not that I believe K.I.A could have actually taken out Crusader considering his powers.Crusader not being unbeatable isn't the point.When he got killed he got shot from behind by someone who he thought was his ally.I can't really speak on Freedom Ring because I don't know how he died but if i'm a reality warper and I have a whole team helping me I have time while he's fighting them to do anything I can think of. 
 
Stingray and Gargoyle are pushovers and Triathlon even more so. 
 
There wasn't anything that War Machine could do because he wasn't prepared for K.I.A to begin with.Had he known even slightly what he was capable of,I doubt he would have tried to outgun him. 
 
As far as Terene.You just furthered my point.Terene just stood there and took the blast.She's didn't try to dodge or hit him first.I'm assuming she thought being one of the most powerful beings in base that she wouldn't get one-shotted by K.I.A.My point still remains that he didn't take out any heavy hitters.All the heavy hitters accept Thor Girl were still standing when the fight was over.Justice is powerful but he's no Ms.Marvel,Iron Man,Wonder Man,Rage,or Ultra Girl.And War Machine not being able to stand after than blast doesn't mean much.He's a man in a suit.A suit in which even class 10 superhumans can cause damage too.
#37 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29510 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Punisher dies here.....
#38 Posted by Vance Astro (91404 posts) - - Show Bio
@InnerVenom123 said:
" I think Punisher dies here..... "
How?
#39 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29510 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:
" @InnerVenom123 said:
" I think Punisher dies here..... "
How? "

Okay, I'll be the first to admit it. I don't know what half the things Punisher is using are, or what they're capable of. Like, the ebony blade, or exactly what "Tricks" Hawkeye's arrows can do, or the full capability of Ant-Man's helmet (Like, if it can block telepaths). I just don't see the Punisher killing all those people. But he probably does, now that I think of it, he usually finds a way.
#40 Posted by Vance Astro (91404 posts) - - Show Bio
@InnerVenom123 said:
But he probably does, now that I think of it, he usually finds a way. "
He could. 
I think CV has pages for the weapons I mentioned.
#41 Posted by iLLituracy (13494 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:

" Ok here we go....   The scans show exactly what I said.The Mighty Avengers didn't hit K.I.A.None of them.I never said they weren't attacking him.It's clear as day they are.Carol is no slouch in h2h combat but as far as we know all K.I.A did was block her first punch and then hit her with his own.

Oh, I was under the impression that you meant that they didn't attack and they all wound up jumping him at once. My mistake.
 
He trumped Carol, that's for sure. He blocked her shot and hit her with his own. That in and of itself is known, and seeing as how Carol has been trained to fight, it's safe to say that tagging her with a hit is a feat. The fact that he was able to best Carol isn't because of KIA's skill [as far as I'm concerned, he had none], though. That was the Tactigon. Also, a strong punch from Carol, blocked or not, would have hurt under normal circumstances. Also, between the first scan and the second scan where he's hitting Wonder Man into her, there's a good page or two, people are probably under the impression that he blocked then smacked the tar out of Wonder Man and Ms. Marvel, but that isn't the case.
 
Most other approaches that Carol could have taken most likely would have been ineffective, too. But seeing as how she didn't take those approaches, that's my personal opinion based on most other attacks that were launched on KIA.

Which I don't doubt was for the plot considering her speed,strength and skill.

I don't think so, throughout the whole arc he was facing people with speed, strength and skill. While the arc was to make the Tactigon look good, I don't think Slott's the type of writer to play up to the Tactigon, or play that far up to the Tactigon. It's ability was established and all of the things it did fell under it's ability.

I said I didn't put Extremis Iron Man in this fight because it would have been overkill.I didn't say that Iron Man didn't have Extremis during the fight with K.I.A,my point was that what he showed against K.I.A was nowhere near what he could have really done.

I'm no expert on Extremis Iron Man, but the only thing I know that he could have done with Extremis is with his technopathic abilities--try and hack it, which he did try to do, but failed. He could have hit him with a gigantic weapon, but, it wouldn't have been realistic. They didn't really have the time to go all out, either. They literally fought him for two pages, couldn't do anything before Cloud 9 stepped in. What else could he have done?

I'm aware that none of the Initiative members in the training session could have handled Taskmaster hand to hand but that's my point.There was nobody in there with any durability.

They couldn't handle Taskmaster, no. But that doesn't mean that none of them had durability, I'm sure that Geiger who has Samson's powerset or some extent of it is very durable. Nor did Taskmaster put any of them down, he was just continuously making them look stupid in battle, he said that none of them could beat him, that was the goal, nowhere was it said that he could beat all of them nor was it said that he could put down the ones with heightened durability.

If I have something attached to me that can drop Ultimo and I come into  a room full of street levelers and low level superhumans,I'm going to easily clear the room.Not that I believe K.I.A could have actually taken out Crusader considering his powers.Crusader not being unbeatable isn't the point.When he got killed he got shot from behind by someone who he thought was his ally.

Low-level or not, the Tactigon has already been proven to be able to blast through the unbreakable. So whether they were low-level or if their durability isn't as strong as people that are moderately superhuman or high-level shouldn't matter.
 
Also, the fact that Crusader got shot in the back of his head doesn't mean that he couldn't take a frontal attack, either. His reality manipulation is limited to his imagination, and limited to begin with, his body is still very much vulnerable to attack. It's not unbelievable for the Tactigon to assess that the threat on Crusader is his ring and for him to saw off his arm with a blast off the bat. The Tactigon's speed surpasses Crusader's.

 I can't really speak on Freedom Ring because I don't know how he died but if i'm a reality warper and I have a whole team helping me I have time while he's fighting them to do anything I can think of.

Freedom Ring died from an attack from Iron Maniac, a Tony Stark from an alternate universe.
 


Stingray and Gargoyle are pushovers and Triathlon even more so.

Pushovers in what sense? They have heightened endurance and strength all of them. Triathalon has greatly enhanced response time and was still felled by the Tactigon.

There wasn't anything that War Machine could do because he wasn't prepared for K.I.A to begin with.Had he known even slightly what he was capable of,I doubt he would have tried to outgun him.

I don't think there was much War Machine could have done against him. There wasn't a tactic he could have come up with to go up against the Tactigon even if he had known what it could do. The Tactigon would have already had something prepared for War Machine off the bat.
 
None of the targets in this thread know what it could do, either, right? They don't even know Frank is coming for them.

As far as Terene.You just furthered my point.Terene just stood there and took the blast.She's didn't try to dodge or hit him first.I'm assuming she thought being one of the most powerful beings in base that she wouldn't get one-shotted by K.I.A.My point still remains that he didn't take out any heavy hitters.All the heavy hitters accept Thor Girl were still standing when the fight was over.

The fact that he could one-shot Tarene is enough, the durability of the Tactigon was tested on numerous occasions when it took one of War Machine's best shots and Ms. Marvel's punches. It's hard to say how durable the armor is because of the fact that it usually acts before other people do and it usually puts down it's target off the bat.

Justice is powerful but he's no Ms.Marvel,Iron Man,Wonder Man,Rage,or Ultra Girl.And War Machine not being able to stand after than blast doesn't mean much.He's a man in a suit.A suit in which even class 10 superhumans can cause damage too. "

Justice is powerful and he isn't any of those Avengers, but his psionic attack was promptly responded to with a psionic defense developed seemingly on the spot that took him down in a seeming instant. Right off the bat it deflected his telekinesis.
 
War Machine is a man in a suit, but he wasn't on KIA's list, so KIA wasn't aiming to kill him nor is his suit the usual suit. By no means should Rhodey's armor be downplayed, at all. His Stanetech armor had a personal force-field generator, it's composed of both titanium and vibranium alloy. It can take a shot and keep going. The shot it took from the Tactigon put his armor out of the fight. He was hurting.
 
Frank has the jump on all of these guys, the Tactigon can come up with weaponry and defenses against all of these opponents outside of battle. The Tactigon paired with Frank's tactical prowess is a force to be reckoned with, he can wipe the board with the Tactigon unless we're talking about a gigantic room of big brains gunning for him and no one team has enough brains--nor do any of these teams have prep for Frank. The way I see it, it's Christmas for Frank and he goes through his list picking off each person one by one with his brand new Tactigon which can exploit weaknesses.
#42 Posted by Vance Astro (91404 posts) - - Show Bio
@iLLituracy said:
" @Vance Astro said:

" Ok here we go....   The scans show exactly what I said.The Mighty Avengers didn't hit K.I.A.None of them.I never said they weren't attacking him.It's clear as day they are.Carol is no slouch in h2h combat but as far as we know all K.I.A did was block her first punch and then hit her with his own.

Oh, I was under the impression that you meant that they didn't attack and they all wound up jumping him at once. My mistake.
 
He trumped Carol, that's for sure. He blocked her shot and hit her with his own. That in and of itself is known, and seeing as how Carol has been trained to fight, it's safe to say that tagging her with a hit is a feat. The fact that he was able to best Carol isn't because of KIA's skill [as far as I'm concerned, he had none], though. That was the Tactigon. Also, a strong punch from Carol, blocked or not, would have hurt under normal circumstances. Also, between the first scan and the second scan where he's hitting Wonder Man into her, there's a good page or two, people are probably under the impression that he blocked then smacked the tar out of Wonder Man and Ms. Marvel, but that isn't the case.
 
Most other approaches that Carol could have taken most likely would have been ineffective, too. But seeing as how she didn't take those approaches, that's my personal opinion based on most other attacks that were launched on KIA.

Which I don't doubt was for the plot considering her speed,strength and skill.

I don't think so, throughout the whole arc he was facing people with speed, strength and skill. While the arc was to make the Tactigon look good, I don't think Slott's the type of writer to play up to the Tactigon, or play that far up to the Tactigon. It's ability was established and all of the things it did fell under it's ability.

I said I didn't put Extremis Iron Man in this fight because it would have been overkill.I didn't say that Iron Man didn't have Extremis during the fight with K.I.A,my point was that what he showed against K.I.A was nowhere near what he could have really done.

I'm no expert on Extremis Iron Man, but the only thing I know that he could have done with Extremis is with his technopathic abilities--try and hack it, which he did try to do, but failed. He could have hit him with a gigantic weapon, but, it wouldn't have been realistic. They didn't really have the time to go all out, either. They literally fought him for two pages, couldn't do anything before Cloud 9 stepped in. What else could he have done?

I'm aware that none of the Initiative members in the training session could have handled Taskmaster hand to hand but that's my point.There was nobody in there with any durability.

They couldn't handle Taskmaster, no. But that doesn't mean that none of them had durability, I'm sure that Geiger who has Samson's powerset or some extent of it is very durable. Nor did Taskmaster put any of them down, he was just continuously making them look stupid in battle, he said that none of them could beat him, that was the goal, nowhere was it said that he could beat all of them nor was it said that he could put down the ones with heightened durability.

If I have something attached to me that can drop Ultimo and I come into  a room full of street levelers and low level superhumans,I'm going to easily clear the room.Not that I believe K.I.A could have actually taken out Crusader considering his powers.Crusader not being unbeatable isn't the point.When he got killed he got shot from behind by someone who he thought was his ally.

Low-level or not, the Tactigon has already been proven to be able to blast through the unbreakable. So whether they were low-level or if their durability isn't as strong as people that are moderately superhuman or high-level shouldn't matter.
 
Also, the fact that Crusader got shot in the back of his head doesn't mean that he couldn't take a frontal attack, either. His reality manipulation is limited to his imagination, and limited to begin with, his body is still very much vulnerable to attack. It's not unbelievable for the Tactigon to assess that the threat on Crusader is his ring and for him to saw off his arm with a blast off the bat. The Tactigon's speed surpasses Crusader's.

 I can't really speak on Freedom Ring because I don't know how he died but if i'm a reality warper and I have a whole team helping me I have time while he's fighting them to do anything I can think of.

Freedom Ring died from an attack from Iron Maniac, a Tony Stark from an alternate universe.
 


Stingray and Gargoyle are pushovers and Triathlon even more so.

Pushovers in what sense? They have heightened endurance and strength all of them. Triathalon has greatly enhanced response time and was still felled by the Tactigon.

There wasn't anything that War Machine could do because he wasn't prepared for K.I.A to begin with.Had he known even slightly what he was capable of,I doubt he would have tried to outgun him.

I don't think there was much War Machine could have done against him. There wasn't a tactic he could have come up with to go up against the Tactigon even if he had known what it could do. The Tactigon would have already had something prepared for War Machine off the bat.
 
None of the targets in this thread know what it could do, either, right? They don't even know Frank is coming for them.

As far as Terene.You just furthered my point.Terene just stood there and took the blast.She's didn't try to dodge or hit him first.I'm assuming she thought being one of the most powerful beings in base that she wouldn't get one-shotted by K.I.A.My point still remains that he didn't take out any heavy hitters.All the heavy hitters accept Thor Girl were still standing when the fight was over.

The fact that he could one-shot Tarene is enough, the durability of the Tactigon was tested on numerous occasions when it took one of War Machine's best shots and Ms. Marvel's punches. It's hard to say how durable the armor is because of the fact that it usually acts before other people do and it usually puts down it's target off the bat.

Justice is powerful but he's no Ms.Marvel,Iron Man,Wonder Man,Rage,or Ultra Girl.And War Machine not being able to stand after than blast doesn't mean much.He's a man in a suit.A suit in which even class 10 superhumans can cause damage too. "

Justice is powerful and he isn't any of those Avengers, but his psionic attack was promptly responded to with a psionic defense developed seemingly on the spot that took him down in a seeming instant. Right off the bat it deflected his telekinesis.  War Machine is a man in a suit, but he wasn't on KIA's list, so KIA wasn't aiming to kill him nor is his suit the usual suit. By no means should Rhodey's armor be downplayed, at all. His Stanetech armor had a personal force-field generator, it's composed of both titanium and vibranium alloy. It can take a shot and keep going. The shot it took from the Tactigon put his armor out of the fight. He was hurting.  Frank has the jump on all of these guys, the Tactigon can come up with weaponry and defenses against all of these opponents outside of battle. The Tactigon paired with Frank's tactical prowess is a force to be reckoned with, he can wipe the board with the Tactigon unless we're talking about a gigantic room of big brains gunning for him and no one team has enough brains--nor do any of these teams have prep for Frank. The way I see it, it's Christmas for Frank and he goes through his list picking off each person one by one with his brand new Tactigon which can exploit weaknesses. "
We could go back and forth about what happened with K.I.A all day.I'm saying the New Avengers take him down.Do you disagree?
#43 Posted by iLLituracy (13494 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:
We could go back and forth about what happened with K.I.A all day.I'm saying the New Avengers take him down.Do you disagree?
Speed is a factor. I think if they can take off Frank's arm faster than the Tactigon can react then it's a safe bet. The versatility of the team probably helps, too. I can't remember the Tactigon attacking or defending in two different ways at once. I think the Tactigon's awareness is dependent on visual sight from the user, as well. I think there's enough tactical brain on that team to have the best chance
 
I just noticed that you put up Bucky twice, he's number 3 and part of the New Avengers line-up.
#44 Posted by Vance Astro (91404 posts) - - Show Bio
@iLLituracy said:
" @Vance Astro said:
We could go back and forth about what happened with K.I.A all day.I'm saying the New Avengers take him down.Do you disagree?
Speed is a factor. I think if they can take off Frank's arm faster than the Tactigon can react then it's a safe bet. The versatility of the team probably helps, too. I can't remember the Tactigon attacking or defending in two different ways at once. I think the Tactigon's awareness is dependent on visual sight from the user, as well. I think there's enough tactical brain on that team to have the best chance  I just noticed that you put up Bucky twice, he's number 3 and part of the New Avengers line-up. "
I was using Rikki Barnes as Bucky in the New Avengers.
#45 Posted by Primmaster64 (21073 posts) - - Show Bio
@Nova`Prime` said:
" Man I don't know what the outcome would be, but Frank did already kill the Marvel Universe once.

But I've got to say that pic of Frank is Bad Ass! "
#46 Posted by ironshadow (1455 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro:   
What comic is this from?